Leave No Stone Unturned

Within hours or even days of a child's disappearance, wouldn't you provide the most recent image rather than a younger child - it just doesn't make any sense. The idea is for people to look for the missing person now - not six months prior.

The image used by the Portuguese for their official missing persons bulletin..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Clearly a younger Madeleine taken somewhere other than Praia da Luz on the Algarve.

Why?

Images taken at Ocean Club Praia da Luz between 28th April and 3rd May 2007..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

this is the one from interpol, same first picture and one of the later made impressions.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

a bit silly to call it still a missing child, age wise.

as far as i ever found it was a media made story. purported of the they have taken her, as what would have been the text chose to get the show go off. 

the wording is in debate still , as it goes in online discussions, because it must have been they have taken her, the bloody basterds had taken her, the bloody is optional. where others purported kate had a first line in with she is gone. 

i never found a source that quoted it by name. 

there was at least one nanny, amy who had heard shout kate something, even before she could have, and much later the fairy nanny had also such things heard. not so much in statements of course, but the papers that pay for stories was an easier way to express them. 

no longer surprising, if we learned one thing of the media and this case, it is how much fantasy is in their reporting. usually you hardly put the same amount of effort in cases on the level that happened in this one, and usually you do not have of course so much access to original material like the files give. 

even the adds are most likely more trustworthy than the words spoken or written in between them. and the adds are the important stuff, that is what paid the bills. 

and there are a lot of just stupid or naive media people, what the mas produce today is easily taken over by even the early ai machine, so they are just working themselves out of the picture.

where true investigative journalism is still a profession and most likely will stay that much longer. stil it is a rare kind to find these days.

most myth's and fairy tales in this case are just penned down in the cafe's and pubs of praia da luz. it is a guess how many pints there are in each story. so it is not such a miracle they have still no clue if they ever have been there, and when. 

the only miracle thing in that part is that grange used the workers of the tapas bar to let us know gerry was at the table, but still all of them missed a shouting kate at all. they only have been told bij diane webster, when one of them asked why she was alone at that table. 

there are only 9 people who have taken part in how the concept of the alarm at ten worked, an alarm that never could have taken place at that time, going by the watch of gerry mccann of course, the one he never took to the restaurant. 

other testimony make a time for take off possible after 21.30 hours and before 22.42 hours, the time the gnr was called. there is no democratic voting for facts. all could be right or wrong. the first and only hard fact is that call logged at the gnr. the rest is stories.

it was already a discussion well before the files got out. 

strange why you would climb over such rough walls, when the mccanns just leaved everything at the back 'open', as they said. 

i think the stories of ivonne martin came even well after it already was out on fora and blogs at that time.

the problem with the early years is, that so much of all discussions are just lost, so there is nothing to back it all up in sources. we had a social media thing hyves, that also had a lot about this case, but it was closed many years ago and all just got lost, and most old fora are no longer even online for references. 

and i had not even my own computer at home at the start, i had one at work with internet and the neighbours of the stables let me use theirs often, so printing was not easy. and the hype at that time was, what gets on the internet is there forever, well that never became very true at all. 

i do hope at least the files keep online for as long as it is needed. 

i still have not a clue what will happen with this forum, most old stuff looks closed already, but what is kept in the members reserved parts i have no idea.

Yes, we covered all this Pamela Fenn fixation on another thread a few weeks back. At that time you were desperately trying to implicate the lady by suggesting she was lying - or she didn't know what was being said and done on her behalf, behind her back. In addition hinting that a few words spoken by the lady caught on camera referred to her statement rather than an angry response to press/media reports.

You are shifting .the goal posts.

Let's not go back there again.

I've just been looking at the remnants of one of those old Madeleine McCann dedicated forums, looking for something in particular not a random any old thing to post, again going back over old ground it's astonishing how Chinese whispers so easily spread.

One or two people make a comment which was swiftly picked-up by the baying mob looking for salacious gossip to chew on and caught public attention like wild fire. As the snippets were passed from one to another along the line, they gained more debris thus resulting in a completely fantastical fairy tale of epic proportions - never to be undone!

The story of the fridge/freezer is one such example. Have you ever seen the size of fridge with icebox provided in holiday self catering accommodation? Couldn't even fit in a gottle of geer.

a typical mainland so called table model fridge is 120 or 140 liter inside, more than enough for a small body, and when you put something against the back, it will freeze even, and break down in some time when a bit older. so far fetched it is not. 

do you know how big a chimp is, i once found one in it.

Something niggles at the back of my head, from memory the fridge/freezer body storage notion began with the case of Joana Cipriano, also overseen by Gonçalo Amaral.

It was once reported statements taken from the mother and the other suspect said the body had been cut up and put in a fridge which was later disposed of.

I believe the idea to have been a working theory that piqued Mr Amaral's interest, in addition to many other possibilities.

It does get a bit grizzly at times doesn't it - how can you help shuddering at the thought!

Cool and calculated Gerry McCann might be but to cram the dead body of a child in a fridge or freezer or someone's coffin takes some believing.

Hiding something to escape justice I can quite believe but the McCanns are not psychopaths, even they would show respect no matter what - surely?

i can see it also as a temporary solution, there are not so much places in that southern portugal to hide a body without it being noticed.

and most ways to dispose of a body are far less easy than it looks like. most that tried it and did not manage it, are of course also the ones we have have that knowledge from, because the body was found. 
but i do know of some dutch cases it could work for quite some time, that bodies are found even the places you find it are hardly to understand as well that was a great way to hide a body.

i cannot fit the mccanns into disposing of a body in the ocean, the garbage route, or by digging in the dark on a cemetery. i can see them agreeing temporary with a solution that buys time, like a fridge.  all ways have their own flaws by the way. the summer heat and just more and more people everywhere out and about would not make anything easy. and it is still a big question mark if they had any help at all with that part of the case.

on the other side we see more and more cases of people who mostly died in their own home by natural causes, but take years to be found. and in all kind of housing. so it is not always a given a body will be noticed. and most people have not even a clue, the lucky ones, how a body can smell after it died. 

but in my country we also have body found in places, you can not understand how they could be there for such a long time, not even buried at all. at least one in a city center, in a bit of council green within meters of the entrance of a flat, another one for at least multiple weeks, but it could be months, in some bushes on a very much used and busy parking space near a motorway. 

and without facts, that part is still only speculation. everything is possible, but much is just unlikely. 

and it is not nice or needed to discuss a lot about what happens to dead bodies in all kind of ways it can be disposed of. 

and if you are starting from a point of view, the child died by accident, it can be easier to understand that out of fear for consequences, and that can be very personal, we do not have to understand that need at all, that distance between 5a and the body was seen as helpful in the coverstory. because leaving it in 5a, it would been very hard to sell a stranger got in story as explanation. 

but if it was only that distance that they felt needed, the body could have made multiple stops until the final destination. 

the only fascination stuff in that last video used by that deception detective guy, has a mitchell saying, a body transported 2 weeks after it happened. curious at least, because they did not had that car to their name 2 weeks in this case. listen at the 1.35 minute mark.

but also there is no obligation for the body itself to be transported in that car.  still there could have been something like tarp or a plastic covering or a used fridge to get rid of, and that could easily still kept enough residu of storing a body to give the outlook in what the pj found in that car. there is no reason why only a body itself could have left such results at all. 

hiding a body is pretty easy for up to 3 days without much special needs to keep it hidden. 

we also do not know if they wanted only distance between 5a and the body, and most reasons why a forever out of a known resting place are still fully build on speculations too. a lot of things in criminal cases, is just a respons in what the people who do the crime see as their needs. they are most times not the most logical things, or things the ordinary mind would think about, or would even start doing. 

there is a likewise problem with help and assistance, i am often still surprised how little bystanders, but also people living in the same household really know about what the others do or don't do. even more how easy people often are used to help without knowing they are helping or with what they help. 

the tavares almeida report from the first monts of investigation, had 3 possible criminal offences noted.

disposing of a body, what is in this case a minor offence, it always would be up to the parents to decide what would be the way to do that and where, only within the guidelines we use for that and is usually to find in the books of law. for me in itself it is not a major crime at all. it would be very different if there had been signs of a murder or manslaughter case. 

child endangerment or neglect, needs a body to get to the second element of that portuguese law, you must prove coming to harm from it to the child. this bit can make the part above a bit more dark and criminal, if it truly was a reason to escape the law by hiding that body. 
but at is unknown what resulted in the child ending up dead, and even dead is not a given fact in this case, you can not form much opinion about it. a lot of accidents would have exactly the same outcome if you was standing next to the same child in the same situation. as long as a situation that the child is missing is not part of that law, you can not use it in this case. the neglect must be proven by the harm to the child, and missing is in the law a quite useless and non existing reason to explain it into harm. 

the law has a major problem with status of the missing. 

the investigation saw accidental death as the most likely result of what happened that formed the start of this case. 
this investigation never said publicly they have been killing their child. of course it would be part of that investigation in looking for signs that could show that, but it was not reached as the most likely event.

it is also the most falsely used matter by the media and the mccanns themselves, by telling all how stupid they are, because they think the mccanns did kill their own child. only that are never been words from the investigation at all. so half the world still think the pj was after the mccanns for killing their child, and that is not in agreement with their reports at all. 

but in many countries you do not have to actively have a direct hand, or even the meaning to kill a child, it could by law be just a element because it can be part of the parental responsibility. 
it means you do not have to do anything in a active meaning, like hitting or hurting the child, but if what happened was the result of not putting a acceptable level of parental responsibility up around that child, you still will be handled the same as when you used your own hands, a gun, or a knife to kill it. only you still need the remains of enough signs to prove that.

the most important crime in this case is the stage setting and offending unknown strangers of being responsible for your own mistakes. because that is what have cost a fortune in money, that could have been spend on other needed work, but also the incriminating of other people, who had no part in it all. 

and looking back over the years, the mccanns just get mad when they hear the words killing your own daughter.  and if it was indeed a accident that would had the same outcome when they would have been standing next to their child. i even can understand that getting mad. 

well they could easily tell the truth, and they still have not done that.

the same with disposing of the body, not so much hiding the body, only when it is not told or said in a way that fits their standing. freezers and fridge are still offending them. the strangers coffin or the garbage dump, or the watery graves never made much noise in the british media. 

well again they could tell the truth, and they still have not done that.

about the neglect part, they just keep up the mantra, and it is still on their website too, that there is no evidence madeleine was harmed, and she must still be alive. 

the same with all the 'we behaved' as responsible parents. 

they could tell the truth, but again, still not did that.

and that stranger, that unknown entity must have done it , and it is easy as long as a stranger has no name,and no known face. and they most likely have not much of a problem to hark in a guy who is already known from a nasty criminal career. the german would not make a chance to offer the truth.

but they could tell the truth, and they did no such thing, not even after 3,5 years of giving a name and face of a stranger, but they also not took it up to change their lines on their website. they even offered little words about it in the media.

and i say no, i do not expect any confession to the public from them at all, they could confess each week in their church. they still have more to loose than could ever win from it. things that are important for them. 
and it would not make any different outcome for madeleine at all. so they can still only loose out, not win anything.

still it is up to them, to speak out the truth. maybe that is even far to simple, their ship has gathered so much rats lifting on and below deck, that would even hard to escape that. telling the truth would only solve the basic mystery, but it will play havoc on so many fronts, it would not solve much for the mccanns. 

i still see no need for much time to think out a plan, the mistakes are to big to go for a well thought over planning over many days. and there is no need to plan, things can easily taken up in the spur of a moment. 

and i still do think if there really have been so much people who are in the known, and many are just pretty common people, there would some who started to talk, with so many there always some who are in needy circumstances that a nice earner would be more welcome, than protecting some people from the uk. 
lives do change in time, so keeping a secret can get a very different load. there is little law left they still can have fear of.

crusader wrote:To my thinking, the Smith sighting is the most relevant.

And the most plausible!

I have pondered and pondered and pondered the Smith sighting, I have read and duly considered all the alternative theory presented over the years.

Conclusion .... there is no good reason to think the Smith family were/are part of any conspiracy theory, they like so many others are nothing but victims of circumstances - being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

No reason to think the Portuguese judiciary were in any way faulty in their official investigation.

The doubting of the Smith family is yet another cast on the police judiciary's competence, another excuse to doubt their ability as a bona fide police force of the civilised world.



The Portuguese judiciary were/are the presiding force in the investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, it is to them we must look for guidance, to them we must trust without reservation.

They did the groundwork, they have the knowledge that we as member's of the public do not have. I think I can say with trust and confidence, the Portuguese judiciary undertook a thorough and professional investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann without any cause for doubt. They considered and covered every possible angle without reservations, it was the outside interference that scuppered their work.

By doubting their competence it can only feed the McCanns campaign of innocence.

Thinking more on the time scale, much of the theory supporting the possibility of an earlier 'death' scenario relies on the time needed to 'arrange' matters before publicly announcing the alleged disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

Firstly the much vaunted suggestion that a forensic cleanse was paramount - but why?  From there we were taken on a shopping spree to the local supermarket to buy effective cleansing products for the operation .... rubbish!  This was all born out of internet gossip and from there grew legs, the idea implies blood and gore but that doesn't have to be.  Death can occur in so many ways that doesn't involve gory detail, even if it did how long does it take to mop up floor space - I should know, I do it all the time   .

So what preliminary work was required before the disappearance was announced?  Talk of tea stains crying incidents and any other strand woven into the web of intrigue to bolster conspiracy mean nothing without supporting evidence - something sadly sparse in this never ending saga.

Children left alone whilst parents dine across the way in the Tapas restaurant, Kate McCann genuinely checks on children in apartment on the night of 3rd May 2007 and discovers something very wrong - she understandably panics .  Group rush back to apartment block - chaos ensues.

Evidence must be disposed of immediately - body >>> exit apartment.

Group members have contact with press and media back in UK.  Phone calls are swiftly made and with the help of family and friends the buzz hits the headlines early morning 4th May 2007 and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office alerted.

Group have to think fast, they draw up a timeline to recollect their movements that night, still in modus panic and possibly a little hazy with the effects of alcohol.  They did after all leave their children alone whilst they went out to dine, that much was verified by the PJ's investigation.

How long does that take - half an hour, certainly no longer than an hour?

If anything seemed out of place the PJ would have picked-up on it - and they did, they knew from the outset that Madeleine McCann had not been abducted!

Gonçalo Amaral is said to have given consideration to the possibility of a time frame earlier in the week, some long time down the line, the theory hasn't however been taken on board by the Portuguese authorities, from that I think we can safely assume it didn't provoke any serious consideration.

Hope this makes some sense, I've got one eye in the kettle and the other in the pot - and my laptop's got frostbite.

I've said many many times in the past - what is the history of the local church? I believe it to have played a key (pardon the inference) role, it certainly features prominently.

Having looked into this in the past, the original structure of the church dates back centuries, churches through the ages notoriously have subterranean passages and crypts of ambient temperature to place the deceased.

To my way of thinking the church would be the first place to run if looking for sanctuary, especially if strong faith is alleged.

I can't see any reason for the group to have communicated by mobile phone to get their stories straight, they appear to have been glued together for most part of the holiday.

That's the trouble, all the months and years following the case and looking into the minor detail (as far as possible) I think most of us are a bit rusty - I certainly am, so easy to be swayed by dogmatic influence if you're not very careful.

One thing for sure, looking back over what's known (?) of events during the night of 3rd/4th May 2007, it appears almost certain the McCann couple were very distressed and Kate McCann very frightened - thus indicating a state of genuine trauma rather than play acting. I speak here of friends and family back in the UK and their reactions to the distress communicated over night by mobile phone.

I can easily see a combination of genuine reactions with the fear of possible detection.

The two of them and their group of holiday friends must have been in a state of panic, fear and trauma no matter what. They are the parents of little children, one of which is the victim - no one outside of a psychopath could not be thoroughly distraught under such circumstances.

What happened subsequently I can only guess could be put down to survival. Being in prison for murder or manslaughter or neglect or any other charge relative to the demise of a three year old child is not a happy prospect to contemplate.