Dr Martin Roberts - 'A Nightwear Job'

Mainline wrote:By the way, Mr Forra's first response was (in Portuguese);

"About the child? Ask the Judiciaria'

He seems to have stopped talking.

What are you talking about?

pauloalexandre wrote:

Mainline wrote:By the way, Mr Forra's first response was (in Portuguese);

"About the child? Ask the Judiciaria'

He seems to have stopped talking.

What are you talking about?

It was me who spurred Isabelle to contact him, so I have been kept up with what he's said.

Have I got this right?
On the 13 May on the Police J. missing website, Photo created by Luis Forra on the 5thMay.
On 8th May, photo of the M&S PJs on BBC website.
On 8th May, photo of the M&S PJs in portuguese resident newspaper.
Luis Forra, according to the latest news, said he took the photo of the PJs at a press conferance in Arena Pavillion in Portimao on the 10th May.
Then a statement from Lusa Agency, said a statement was read out by  Olegario Sousa and along with the statement, a photograph of the PJs the girl wore at the time of her disappearance.

pauloalexandre wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Translation:

"The photo was taken in a press conference conducted by the Policia Judiciária in Portimão Arena."

Confirmation!

Thank you Paulo, that's very helpful.

crusader wrote:Have I got this right?
On the 13 May on the Police J. missing website, Photo created by Luis Forra on the 5thMay.
On 8th May, photo of the M&S PJs on BBC website.
On 8th May, photo of the M&S PJs in portuguese resident newspaper.
Luis Forra, according to the latest news, said he took the photo of the PJs at a press conferance in Arena Pavillion in Portimao on the 10th May.
Then a statement from Lusa Agency, said a statement was read out by  Olegario Sousa and along with the statement, a photograph of the PJs the girl wore at the time of her disappearance.

The earlier photos were facsimiles of the 'Maddie size' PJ's.

Luis Forra says he took photo inside Portimao Arena on the 10th. Martin has suggested to me that this may have been to make the photo copywrite friendly between all the agencies.

No explanation yet as to the May 5th attribution.

The following article seems to sum it up although it attributes the May 7th photos as being given on the 6th;

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Verdi wrote:

pauloalexandre wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Translation:

"The photo was taken in a press conference conducted by the Policia Judiciária in Portimão Arena."

Confirmation!

Thank you Paulo, that's very helpful.

Credit goes to Isabelle McFadden for successfuly reaching out to him.

Yes, I now see so you can strike my comment, I was about to delete but you got in first.

I firstly thought it was a response to pauloalexandre as he previously mentioned his attempt to contact Luis Forra.

Sorry to say but Isabelle McFadden has made many claims over the years about personal contact with various key players. Didn't believe it then, don't believe it now. Primarily because a police investigation is confidential, it's unlikely in the extreme any well respected police officer or associate would confide in a nobody about a particular active case - even if they speak the language.

I take it with a large dose of salt without corroborating evidence of her claims.

Nice try, no coconut.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I will say that I have previously had issues with Isabelle and she has solved them with adequate disclosure. It is of course up to the reader whether they want to accept her words and screenshots. I wouldn't personally publish screenshots but I am not Isabelle.

I trust her implicitly on those things she has shared with me and shown proof. In many cases we have made mutual contact for verification. I have not heard from Luis Forra.

But I trust Isabelle.

Derail the thread with character assassination if you like.

crusader wrote:On 8th May, photo of the M&S PJs on BBC website.

I think that was just a chance find by the BBC, thought I posted this the other day.  Whatever, here it is..

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Later BBC reports show the photographic footage from the European tour.

The press reports are not really relevant.  What matters is the photograph of Madeleine's pyjamas in the PJ chain of custody.

Mainline wrote:You are of course entitled to your opinion. I will say that I have previously had issues with Isabelle and she has solved them with adequate disclosure. It is of course up to the reader whether they want to accept her words and screenshots. I wouldn't personally publish screenshots but I am not Isabelle.

I trust her implicitly on those things she has shared with me and shown proof. In many cases we have made mutual contact for verification. I have not heard from Luis Forra.

But I trust Isabelle.

Derail the thread with character assassination if you like.

Can I ask you how Isabelle got Forra's email address?

pauloalexandre wrote:

Mainline wrote:You are of course entitled to your opinion. I will say that I have previously had issues with Isabelle and she has solved them with adequate disclosure. It is of course up to the reader whether they want to accept her words and screenshots. I wouldn't personally publish screenshots but I am not Isabelle.

I trust her implicitly on those things she has shared with me and shown proof. In many cases we have made mutual contact for verification. I have not heard from Luis Forra.

But I trust Isabelle.

Derail the thread with character assassination if you like.

Can I ask you how Isabelle got Forra's email address?

They connected on Linkedin.

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Verdi wrote:
I firstly thought it was a response to pauloalexandre    as he previously mentioned his attempt to contact Luis Forra.

It has been 2 days since I sent him a message on Facebook, with no response so far. I think he rarely is on-line.

I think that Isabelle is to be trusted, at least on this matter.

The screenshot clearly shows Luís Forra's e-mail message, saying that the photo was taken at the press conference in the Portimão Arena.

The news report dated 10th May 2007 that I copied and pasted last page corroborates his statement.

However, it would be great to see if Mr. Forra replies to my message.

Mainline wrote:Derail the thread with character assassination if you like.

What a very curious comment to make. Who or what ever prompted you to say that?

pauloalexandre wrote:I think that Isabelle is to be trusted, at least on this matter.

The screenshot clearly shows Luís Forra's e-mail message, saying that the photo was taken at the press conference in the Portimão Arena.

The news report dated 10th May 2007 that I copied and pasted last page corroborates his statement.

However, it would be great to see if Mr. Forra replies to my message.

Are you sure about that? It tells me nothing..

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I'm not disputing the provenance of the pyjama photograph, it's as I thought.  It's the McFadden tweet I doubt.

It matters not.  The only importance is the chain of custody for the pyjama photograph which is now confirmed beyond doubt, the original photograph was the property of the PJ and photographed by Luis Forra for LUSA press agency.  It was most certainly not taken nor given nor distributed by Kate McCann.

That is precisely the point throughout this entire thread.

Now .... on with the motley!

I don't believe that tweet, why would he say he took it on the 10th when it says created on the 5th on thr PJ website?

How could the PJ hand out photos of the Pyjamas with a statement  on the 10th, if it wasn't taken until the 10th?

Verdi wrote:

It matters not.  The only importance is the chain of custody for the pyjama photograph which is now confirmed beyond doubt, the original photograph was the property of the PJ and photographed by Luis Forra for LUSA press agency.  It was most certainly not taken nor given nor distributed by Kate McCann.

That is precisely the point throughout this entire thread. 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   I am of course entirely with you on the general unreliability of Isabelle McFadden, for which we have a great deal of hard evidence.

I follow, with great respect, your argument on the pyjamas. You say they are Amelie's photographs on both the Luis Forra photograph and on the Crimewatch Show 5 June 2007 and the Amsterdam Hilton on 7 June 2007. Your position is that you have no specific reason to doubt Kate Mcann's statements that thee are Ameili's pyjamas and you won't change your mind unless and until you see hard evidence to the contrary that they are Madeleine's pyjamas. I hope that is an entirely fair summary of your position?

If so, this quote from you above is hard to understand. You wrote:

"The only importance is the chain of custody for the pyjama photograph which is now confirmed beyond doubt, the original photograph was the property of the PJ and photographed by Luis Forra for LUSA press agency.  It was most certainly not taken nor given nor distributed by Kate McCann". 

Would you agree with me that this would be a much more accurate way of putting it:

"The only importance is the chain of custody for the pyjama photograph which is now confirmed beyond doubt, the original photograph was the property of the PJ and photographed by Luis Forra for LUSA press agency.  We still of course do not know when and where the McCanns handed Amelie's pyjamas to Luis Forra or to an agent of Luis Forra".


(Obviously I still strongly maintain they are Madeleine's actual pyjamas) 




.

Verdi wrote:

crusader wrote:On 8th May, photo of the M&S PJs on BBC website.

I think that was just a chance find by the BBC, thought I posted this the other day.  Whatever, here it is..

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Later BBC reports show the photographic footage from the European tour.

The press reports are not really relevant.  What matters is the photograph of Madeleine's pyjamas in the PJ chain of custody.

A Freudian slip Verdi?

All the photos in the PJ files are numbered.
The photos in the Information from the family file are numbered 331 to344, 342  is the pyjama photo.

Does that count as a chain of custody?

Madeleine hunt coming to an end

By Richard Edwards and Fiona Govan in Praia da Luz

12:01AM BST 10 May 2007

Police in Portugal said they were winding down the hunt for three-year-old Madeleine McCann after three prime suspects emerged in the investigation.

Detectives are believed to have obtained CCTV footage showing a woman and two men with a girl matching Madeleine's description, although they have refused to confirm this.

It is thought that officers are showing the images, obtained at a service station just outside Praia da Luz, to key witnesses in the case.

A police press conference held tonight did not shed any light on this theory however.

Chief inspector Olegario de Sousa told reporters that officers have searched an area of 200 square kilometres so far, but that the hunt was coming to an end.

An official photograph of the pyjamas Madeleine was wearing when she disappeared was also released.

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Mr de Sousa also stressed that Madeleine's parents Gerry and Kate were not under any suspicion.

Earlier today, police sources suggested that they are investigating the theory that Madeleine was kidnapped by one of the men with the complicity of a couple.

There are reports that the footage included a car with a British number plate and it is claimed the registration has been circulated through Interpol.

The couple were taken to the local police headquarters in Portimao this afternoon along with two of the other couples who were on holiday with them.

It is understood detectives wanted to put some of the evidence gathered to them for clarification and perhaps show them the CCTV stills.

There are seperate reports of a blonde woman seen near Madeleine's bedroom on the night of her abduction.

And a Portuguese man in the town of Sagres, near Praia da Luz, had reported a foreign man trying to take a photograph of his daughter. The man challenged the stranger who made off in a car.

The incident is understood to have happened before Madeleine's disappearance and was reported to police on Monday. The man was shown the CCTV stills but did not recognise them, his mother told Portuguese TV today.

Madeleine has been missing for a week after she was snatched as she slept in her parents holiday apartment in the village while the couple were dining nearby.

Today Mrs McCann publicly prayed for her daughter's return at a tearful ecumenical church service in the village church which is used by Catholics and Anglicans.

Holiday reps and tourists joined parishioners of both Protestant and Catholic churches to pray for the three-year-old's safe return to her family.

Looking tired and drawn, Mrs McCann slipped into the church and took a seat at the front, arm in arm with her friend. She was again holding "Cuddly Cat", Madeleine's favourite toy. Husband Gerry was not present, nor were Madeleine's twin siblings Sean and Amelie.

The village's new Anglican priest Father Haynes Hubbard, who arrived this week, told more than 200 people who packed in to the tiny church of Nossa Senhora da Luz that they would depart from the traditional liturgy with spontaneous prayers for Madeleine.

The service began on traditional lines with a reading from the Epistle to the Romans which included the phrase: "We know that all things work together for good for them that love God."

The hymn Father Hear The Prayer We Offer was sung. The congregation then recited the 23rd Psalm, The Lord Is My Shepherd. Father Hubbard then led prayers saying: "We give to you little Madeleine, and ask your protection on her, we ask your grace to be upon her."

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I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately, ‘Madeleine! Madeleine!’ It was so cold and so windy. I kept picturing her in her short-sleeved Marks and Spencer Eeyore pyjamas and feeling how chilled she would be. Bizarrely, I found myself thinking it would have been better if she’d been wearing her long-sleeved Barbie ones. Fear was shearing through my body.

In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought.



Where are the long sleeved Barbie pyjamas?

Why are there only prints from Kate found on the windows and shutters?

Answers on a Postcard to JVA Wolfenbüttel.

__________________________________________________________________________________

Topic merged.


The pyjamarama has been discussed extensively on this thread. In the interest of forum continuity, if members wish to contribute constructive commentary or  continue  general discussion about Dr Martin Robert's observations, please do so here.

Thank you. Verdi  

Was there a 'night wear' thread? I remember posting about the pyjamas, and I'm pretty sure my final word on the subject was that I should give it a rest, which I did.

That seems as though I think  it should be given a rest, which not what I mean at all. It 's very interesting.

Yes, there's this thread - Verdi might well juggle it all around a bit later 

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Silentscope wrote:I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately, ‘Madeleine! Madeleine!’ It was so cold and so windy. I kept picturing her in her short-sleeved Marks and Spencer Eeyore pyjamas and feeling how chilled she would be. Bizarrely, I found myself thinking it would have been better if she’d been wearing her long-sleeved Barbie ones. Fear was shearing through my body.

In the children’s room, Gerry lowered the shutter at the open window. Rushing outside, he made the sickening discovery that it could be raised from this side, too, not just from inside as we’d thought.



Where are the long sleeved Barbie pyjamas?

Why are there only prints from Kate found on the windows and shutters?

Answers on a Postcard to JVA Wolfenbüttel.

The shutters could be raised from outside, but only to fall back down again making a noise. In order for them stay up, they would need to be operated from a mechanism on the inside.

Aoife Smith, in her statement, claimed that the child she had seen was wearing long sleeved pyjamas.

Kate's comments as a mother are bizarre

"I kept picturing her in her short-sleeved Marks and Spencer Eeyore pyjamas and feeling how chilled she would be. Bizarrely, I found myself thinking it would have been better if she’d been wearing her long-sleeved Barbie ones. Fear was shearing through my body."

On a cold windy night would some sleeves really have made much difference? Would the probability of Madeleine dying from exposure have been greatly reduced by some sleeves?

If Madeleine was out there however, her chances of survival would have greatly improved if she had been found sooner rather than later. So why didn't Kate who claims that fear was shearing through her body, search for her?

Thanks Jill.

On a cold windy night would some sleeves really have made much difference? Would the probability of Madeleine dying from exposure have been greatly reduced by some sleeves?



Why would such a scenario exist in Kates mind as she knew straight away that Madeleine had not wandered off. Her Pyjamas could not provide her with protection from the immediate threat.

She was Abducted by a Paedophile.

The Weather would be the last thing to worry about.

Shearing is an interesting choice of words, like ‘wind shear’?
One part of Kates body is fear flowing in one direction.

What emotion is shearing in the other direction?

whatsupdoc wrote:


On Kate McCann's own admission, to a House of Commons committee no less, neither she nor husband Gerry were any more capable of keeping cool under fire during this time. Having earlier (August 2007) told her Pal, Jon Corner, "the first few days.…you have total physical shutdown", she went on to advise the House that, despite being medically trained, she and her husband "couldn't function" (John Bingham, the Telegraph, 13.6.2011).

End of quote.

McCann was gloating about something with Payne just two days later and acting like the celebrity when he came out of the creche before he realised the cameras were watching him.