Leave No Stone Unturned

Morning @ Verdi

I am surprised that as a researcher you are still unable to identify the programme which I watched and gave you full details of time date and channel?

Whether it was in line with official narrative or not I could not say.  I watched and listened, and listened to Goncalo  Amaral and others too, who all appeared on this programme.

Also, you appear quite unable to read and understand my posts.

Nowhere in my post have I suggested that there is/isn't evidence to corroborate  Kate McCanns book entry.  Nor did I suggest that if there was not that it followed therefore there was no evidence perse?

I asked a question looking for a bit of information/insight in this regard, and you dismissed my question rather offhandedly.

Again in your latest reply to me you say:     

"Kate McCann's book entry is the only mention of the Tapas booking as regards the children being left unattended.  Why would you so readily accept the word of Kate McCann - assume she is telling the truth?"


Where in my post have I said I was accepting the word of Kate McCann?


Fact is I DIDN'T say anything of the kind!

I posed a question regarding this issue of the entry in the restaurant register, as as I stated I had heard it on the programme I was watching, and simply asked if anyone could throw some light on it for me.

I further asked if anyone knew of the EXACT wording of that note IF it existed!  I felt that if such an entry existed that it was important EXACTLY what that wording was/is.

Quite straightforward Verdi.

You, as I said dismissed my query.

Interestingly it has been raised on the GMB interview with the German reporter this morning - I have done a transcript of same and posted it hopefully on the correct thread.

Please don't try and put words in my mouth, because I will correct you as anyone would who is misquoted, misrepresented, or simply accused of saying something they did not.

I did take the trouble to search for the Virgin documentary you refer to but all I could access was a three minute news report about the German suspect.  Maybe because I don't subscribe to Virgin.

Was it by any chance the Netflix documentary?

It seems I must have misunderstood your post, even now having read your reply I'm still strugglling to understand.

Briefly, without taking your comments out of context I hope, you said ..

Interesting that you say that there is no official documentation.

If so, What was Kate McCann reading?   And just out of interest, again, would be good to know IF there is a record somewhere, with EXACTLY what was written against their booking.

You have supplied from her book-

'we wanted to eat close to our apartments as we were leaving our young children alone there and checking on them intermittently.'

The wording recorded if it was, does matter.   Did it actually say they would be checking on their children.

I'm saying there is no officially documented confirmation that the note allegedly left to the side of the Tapas booking register, as stated by Kate McCann in her book, existed.  The only mention of the document is Kate McCann's word - tenuous to say the least.

No ifs about it, there isn't a record somewhere 'anywhere' to verify her book entry.  It's a mute point.

As I said before, Kate McCann's book is littered with such snippets that can't be verfied.

In short .... Kate McCann wasn't reading anything - it is clearly fabricated information.  In my view to add weight to the claimed abduction theory .

I explained my rationale in detail to make my observations clear, so as not to create confusion,  I can't understand why you take offence.  

I agree on that point, because it is not to be found in the PJ Files copies from the TAPAS Booking forms. 

I would find it harder to believe that the PJ missed it, and even if it was a pre-conceived planted excuse, it is not PRODUCEABLE EVIDENCE.

If it’s not recorded or preserved how could it be used as such?

crispbee2000 wrote:Anyone have any pointers as to why Neil Berry ended up staying in Date Palm (DP01), next to where Philip Martin Edmonds was staying from the 5th May to the 12th May? He was originally staying in Block 6 of Waterside Gardens (G606) across from the McCanns and next door to Raj Balu, from 28th Apr. I'd love to know if he changed accommodation (because of the press disturbance?) and had originally booked for the full period or extended his stay (for whatever reason). Also, it is curious that he and P M Edmonds claimed to have photo evidence of Madeleine alive later in the week - Neil's photo was published in the Netflix doc', Edmonds' has never turned up.


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Berry - I Have a photo of him and his daughter. Yet another young blonde girl. And he's just an "average" guy. 
Won't post pics in public for obvious reasons.

It's not secret, it's on public record..

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From the Netflix documentary..

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Neil Berry's daughter

Not the child in the forefront at the end of the finger, that's Madeleine McCann according to Neil Berry in the Netflix documentary. His daughter is said to be the one at the rear who appears to be standing on something.

The image of the child was splashed across the tabloids at the time of the Netflix production promotion.

Verdi wrote:It's not secret, it's on public record..

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From the Netflix documentary..

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Neil Berry's daughter

Not the child in the forefront at the end of the finger, that's Madeleine McCann according to Neil Berry in the Netflix documentary.  His daughter is said to be the one at the rear who appears to be standing on something.

The image of the child was splashed across the tabloids at the time of the Netflix production promotion.

That's interesting. Still haven't seen the Netflix soap. But my photos are taken from a different place.

Re TAPAS booking

I remember reading about the note that was left with the booking and here are some retrievals from memory

Note: I am not stating facts. I am accessing memory. I could be dreaming. But here goes:

Not written by Kate
Booked by one of the TAPAS 7 who was in a rush to book out the whole week - did this on the Sunday or Monday night, not having eaten at the TAPAs the night they arrived at OC.

There was a ridiculous note about the reason for the booking - how the children were staying in their rooms and why the TAPAS 9 had to have the apartments in their sights - (maybe the note was Kate's retrofitting so that readers would think "oh golly gosh anybody could have seen that note and decided to abduct Madeleine" (not one of the other children of course). 

The bit about a TAPAS 7 rushing down to book out the restaurant for the week (8:00 pm) on their second night at OC was from a witness. 

Please don't yell at me.

Just to be clear:
The point of my previous post was to draw attention to a report that described the rushed booking for the rest of the week at 8 pm, and that the person who did this was not Kate.

A rushed Tapas booking. On Sunday? Ah yes. Do we know what time it was booked? And was it Russel who did it? 
It seems I'm having senior memory problems. I remember reading it, but not the details. 
And the T9 were taking the evening off due to not feeling well. Who's turn was it on Sunday night?

THAT tale seemed very dodgy. In my opinion.

Luisa Coutinho says it was a man , Rachel Oldfield says it was her ! 

Check out The complete mystery of the booking of The Tapas Restaurant on Sunday 29April  found in the " most important areas of research " section  ( sorry can't do a link) the Search bar is very useful ! 
Matt Oldfield was the first to apparently fall sick on the Sunday night .

Thank you sundancer. I'll have a look.

Does anyone here know how to do a line connection chart with can show all of the connection between so many of involve coincides. This would be extremely interesting. Well, it would be to me anyway!

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LDB - If you want people to contact you, please be clear about what you want them to contact you about and provide your e-mail or mobile phone number.


Apart from that, please stay on topic.

Thanks
Admin

Lance De Boils wrote:

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LDB - If you want people to contact you, please be clear about what you want them to contact you about and provide your e-mail or mobile phone number.  


Apart from that, please stay on topic.

Thanks
Admin

Ok. Sorry. I can't remember posting like that in public. But I guess I must have.
Apologies again.

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Post by Secondthoughts2 Today at 14:10

“IT’S NOT US THAT’S COMMITTED THIS CRIME, IT’S PERSON WHO’S GONE INTO THAT APARTMENT AND TAKEN A LITTLE GIRL AWAY FROM HER FAMILY”

Crime Watch Video

What a cold and very impersonal statement from the mother of a child who was reported as missing by her parents (a child never found) perhaps abducted?

Perhaps who wandered off? Perhaps missing as the result of foul play by persons known to her?   A child who may be dead?  Who may have died accidentally?  Died accidentally and then the death concealed by those known to her?  Who, may have been murdered?  Who may have been abducted and murdered?  Who may have been murdered then removed from the holiday apartment?


“It’s not US that’s committed this crime?


Kate McCann doesn’t say – It’s not US WHO have committed this crime.   She says THAT’S committed this crime?

So,

Who exactly is included in US?


Her and Gerry?  Her, Gerry and others? Her and others?  Gerry and others?

I would think that whomever she is referring to, rather depends on what crime or crimes she is referring to!

She states A crime (singular) was committed!

How does she, or can she know this?

Let us say that Madeleine was assaulted in some way, in the apartment, then killed in apartment, then, her body removed from apartment, and disposed of?
Clearly then, multiple crimes against the child!

So WHY is Kate McCann in this statement so sure that A crime (singular) was committed against her daughter?

She cannot possibly know that such a scenario as I suggested above did not happen to her child…unless…she has other information that she has not divulged to police authorities!


Or, for sake of argument - what if Madeleine wandered out of the apartment - which Kate and Gerry McCann claim to have left unsecure - easily allowing a child of Madeleine’s age to wander off?  Thereafter the child for whatever reason never being found?

Again, Kate McCann cannot possibly know that this scenario did not happen to her child…unless…she has other information that she has not divulged to police authorities!


Her statement continued:

“It’s the person who’s gone into that apartment
and taken a little girl away from her family”

What an extraordinary thing to say.


Extraordinary for several reasons.   Not least the coldness once more.

She, Kate McCann, at no point in her statement speaks of Madeleine by name, or refers to Madeleine as her daughter.   Only as a little girl, as though Madeleine, a child she did not know.

She refers to their holiday apartment as THAT apartment.  
She refers to Madeleine as a LITTLE GIRL (as though a stranger to her).
She refers to a LITTLE GIRL being taken away from HER FAMILY (the child’s family)

NOT of Madeleine her first born child, her daughter being taken away from her and Gerry, their/our family (as in taken from her, Gerry, and the twin children/extended family)


Such distancing between her and Madeleine.

This statement, it’s almost as though Madeleine was NOT part of the family.

Kate McCann doesn’t know that ‘a person’ some stranger went into the holiday apartment and took ‘a little girl’ away from her family.

She may know a whole lot of stuff about what happened the night she/Gerry reported their daughter as missing – I don’t doubt for a split second that she knows exactly what happened to her daughter, her and Gerry’s daughter, their first born child, the child they named Madeleine, the child who according to them, they left alone no adult supervision, in their holiday apartment and did not secure it.  


The child she now refers to as ‘a little girl’ taken away from her family as though a stranger to her.



“It’s not us that’s committed this crime, it’s person who’s gone into that apartment and taken a little girl away from her family.”


How easily those words slip from her lips.

How conveniently she and Gerry McCann ignored the possibility of all other various scenarios.

Ignored, all scenarios, but that of a nasty man going into the apartment and taking their daughter Madeleine.

No parent wants to imagine that their child may have been assaulted, injured in some way, and is no longer alive.  Parents of a missing child will always hope for the best outcome.   But they do acknowledge that this may not be the case.

They do not ignore all possible scenarios.   They do not defend only one scenario and promote it above all else.

Unbearable for any parent to imagine their child being harmed.  Perhaps worse still to imagine the fear their child may have suffered.  Truly an unbearable thought for any parent, that our child was ever in a state of fear and not being there to save them from that pain and suffering.  Our child only wanting for mummy or daddy to come to them.

Never once have I ever heard the McCanns express their feelings in this regard.  Express any concern whatsoever for Madeleine as to what she may have suffered before her death.   The fear of a terrified child.  Or, the fear she may still be suffering at the hands of this ‘person’ who Kate McCann describes as having taken a little girl from her family.  The little girl they want the world to believe is still alive.


I’ve often pondered this, and the only reason I can come up with is that THEY KNOW EXACTLY what became of their daughter.  They know whether she suffered pain, fear.


They know that she no longer does.


Thirteen years on, and the story told by the McCanns and their cohorts, though full of absolute holes, seems to be widely accepted – despite the absolute impossibility of their tale – a tale easily taken apart when set to a reconstruction according to their witness statements -  


A bad man took Madeleine – seems to be the order of the day.

But who has ordered that this fantastic tale should be accepted, is as worrying as the McCanns tale itself!

Great post ! 

The distancing began immediately " they've taken her " , apart from who are " they " and how Kate knew there was a " they " , " her " ? The McCanns had two daughters , yet everyone seemed to " know " it was Madeleine she was referring to . 

Gerry to Mrs Fenn " a small girl has been taken " , not my daughter , my Madeleine , no asking " did you see or hear anything ?" 

" Where is ... where is ... where is the child " Gerry again . 

" I know what happened wasn't due to the fact of us leaving them sleeping . I know it happened under other circumstances . I know the situation we were in that night " 



Oh how I wish she'd tell us what those " other circumstances " are ! 

The " situation " they were in , again not Madeleine , themselves . 
Kate is very fond of saying she " knew KNEW " because she was " there " ( saying it in capitals doesn't make it true ) but she does " know more than you do " 

Of that I have no doubt .

Yes it is littered with distancing language. When KM spoke about Madeleine asking where were they when her and Shaun cried she doesn't answer the question she instead applies distancing language on Madeleine's behalf saying she moved on to talk about something else 'that popped into her head'. Madeleine was a very inquisitive child and I can't see her not waiting for an answer to this and changing tack that readily. I think this is very telling and suggests to me that she might not have been around to be furnished with an answer.

Spot on Verdi! Great post.

Lance De Boils wrote:Spot on Verdi! Great post.

Not guilty M'Lud.  

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It was posted by new member 'Secondthoughts2'.  I only moved it from the Video of the Day thread, because it was misplaced.  It was too long for a quick screenshot, so I opted to copy and paste.

Sorry for the confusion.  I can't follow the normal route for moving posts when posted on the video thread, my computer crashes due to the number of videos uploaded on the thread.

Ah ok. Great post then to Secondthoughts2.

Peter Mac – e.book
Curtains, windows, door- Chapter 3
 
I was reading the above (and viewing the images) and as stated, the bed over by the window is messy, unmade. 

It is claimed that Kate McCann slept here the night previous to 3^rd May.

The bed closest to the door where it is claimed Madeleine slept, is neat and tidy, as though no one had slept there/or at least if someone did, it was someone who did not move around much in their sleep/did not disturb bed clothes when getting out of bed.

What struck me is, that Kate McCann demonstrates how the curtains had been drawn closed.

Did she or Gerry McCann do this when they put the kids to bed on night of the 3^rd May - closed the curtains?  

It appears odd to me that any parent who was at some point in the morning/during the day/in the evening of 3^rd May making up so neatly, the bed where it is claimed Madeleine slept, would not do likewise with the other bed in that same room.  Particularly so, when it is further claimed that the curtains had been drawn closed. 

If either of the McCanns drew the curtains closed, made up bed closest to the door so neatly (presumably he/she made cots up too, as one would do) so why would they not make up the bed at the window, even if only to draw the top bed cover over when they were over by that bed, to draw the curtains closed?  It’s the natural thing to do.  

When were curtains supposedly drawn closed?  That day? Day before?  Always closed throughout their stay?

I cannot think of any time when I have made up only one bed in a room where there are two requiring to be made up!

Is it possible that Madeleine was never in the bed closest to the door on the night of 3^rd May? (Did not Gerry McCann say Madeleine was lying on top of the bedclothes and not sleeping between them?  Was that said to account for bed being so neat?)

Is it possible she was put to bed, in the bed over by the window?

Is it possible she woke and got out of bed at door, and went over to the bed at the window?   It looks as though a kid may have bounced around on it!

Is it possible Kate McCann never slept in this bed at the window the night prior to the 3^rd May?

Did police ever find anything to suggest that ONLY Kate McCann had been in that bed at the window?

If scene was set by McCanns- what would be the purpose, if any, of leaving the bed by the window unmade?  And Madeleine's bed left so neat?

What prompted the decision to leave bed at window unmade OR indeed to ‘unmake it?’

How long would they have had to set a scene?

The longer time they had before announcing Madeleine to be missing, one would have to assume the more time they (and who would 'they' be? Kate and Gerry, or others?) had to perfect the scene to fall in line with whatever their story/plan was to be?

But it was not perfected, left themselves wide open, with a story that is, so full of holes, resulting in their story being proven absolutely, to not be truthful.

It’s puzzling to me why that would be if they had a lengthy period of time to perfect it, to get it right.

Was it a case of them having little time (depending what happened to Madeleine) to come up with a story/set a scene OR a case of Gerry and Kate McCann not being entirely on the same page.   One knowing more than the other as to what happened to Madeleine, and not keeping each other up to speed?  But at least one of them having the confidence of another involved/participating member of the group?

The police images of curtains, do absolutely show that Kate McCann was not truthful in her account of whooshing curtains as quite clearly a curtain is lodged tightly between the bed and the wall under window.   So no matter whether she claims the curtains were drawn closed on night of the 3rd or in that same state on every night during their holiday - It's a lie!

I guess she never checked the police file images before she opened her mouth (or maybe they were not available at that time, and she did not realise her lie would so easily be discovered)

An aside.   Is that a little mirror above the bed by the door?  Odd to me to lay a child in a bed where there is a wall hanging which could potentially fall and cause injury.

Another interesting post. Thank you. Mulling this over. (Again!)
There MUST have been a significant reason for this. None of it fits with the various versions of events.

Hi @ Crusader and @ Lance De Boils

Thank you both for your replies.

That's interesting Crusader re the behead being behind the chest of drawers (the chest of drawers having been moved so as to move bed against the wall and make room for the two cots presumably?) and it explains why a mirror would be hanging above a bed.  The position of the mirror puzzled me.

So we can take it then that for the duration of the holiday the beds were in the position as in the police file photographs?

@Lance De Boils, like you, I am mulling over once more, the scene in respect of the unmade bed and the neat bed, and the reason, as you say also, for beds to have been left as they were, particularly so, as the assumption has been that McCanns/and perhaps others in their party, had set the scene.  

I'm interested in how much time they had to set the scene as 'time' would naturally play a huge part in how much or how little, the person/s could re-arrange what they felt needed to be, on 3rd May.  And of course account for how much thinking time they had.

So, if scene setting took place - What was their thinking behind leaving an unmade bed?   By having Madeleine's bed so neat, and the toy and blanket placed as they were?  Contradictory scene.

There must have, if they set a scene, been some sort of thought process, a reason as to why the beds should be as they were!

There seems to be very little that adds up at all in respect of scene setting in any of the rooms/areas/windows/doors/ in the apartment and the statements each of the group gave.

According to Kates " account of the truth " they moved the furniture on the Saturday they arrived , pushing together the beds in their room and moving the beds , chest of drawers in the children's bedroom to make room for the two travel cots . 
Busy bee's they were on arrival , apparently Madeleine insisted on going swimming with Kate in  freezing cold pool , then they went to the welcome meeting ! 

The cleaner on the Wednesday states one cot was in the parents bedroom but the McCanns deny this ! 

The unmade bed , I wonder if this was to connect with the " broken jemmied shutters , open window and curtains " ( which then became closed and whooshing despite being photographed as tucked behind the bed and chair !) so to stress the " abductor " came through the open window , or when the shutters were proved not to be jemmied he left that way ? 

Plan A , then when something went wrong , resulting in the hastily written timelines desperately trying to get back on track becoming Plan X, Y and Z none of which worked 

Return for a reconstruction ? Err no thanks !

A couple of thoughts:
Wouldn't it be more typical for the cots to be in the parents' room?
Also, maybe "sleepovers" were had between the other kids. On holiday this would have been super exciting.

Secondthoughts2 wrote:Hi @ Crusader and @ Lance De Boils

Thank you both for your replies.

That's interesting Crusader re the behead being behind the chest of drawers (the chest of drawers having been moved so as to move bed against the wall and make room for the two cots presumably?) and it explains why a mirror would be hanging above a bed.  The position of the mirror puzzled me.

So we can take it then that for the duration of the holiday the beds were in the position as in the police file photographs?

@Lance De Boils, like you, I am mulling over once more, the scene in respect of the unmade bed and the neat bed, and the reason, as you say also, for beds to have been left as they were, particularly so, as the assumption has been that McCanns/and perhaps others in their party, had set the scene.  

I'm interested in how much time they had to set the scene as 'time' would naturally play a huge part in how much or how little, the person/s could re-arrange what they felt needed to be, on 3rd May.  And of course account for how much thinking time they had.

So, if scene setting took place - What was their thinking behind leaving an unmade bed?   By having Madeleine's bed so neat, and the toy and blanket placed as they were?  Contradictory scene.

There must have, if they set a scene, been some sort of thought process, a reason as to why the beds should be as they were!

There seems to be very little that adds up at all in respect of scene setting in any of the rooms/areas/windows/doors/ in the apartment and the statements each of the group gave.

My logic takes me to exactly the same place @Secoundthoughts2. The evidence we're presented with creates a MAJOR dichotomy. If Madeleine died earlier in the week it explains an awful lot about how they were able to conceal the body but it makes a nonsense of why the staged abduction was so botched and messy (as if hurried). If Madeleine died on the early evening of the 3rd it makes sense of a botched and messy abduction staging BUT we're then left with an incredibly tight time line and the implausibility of how to make a child disappear without trace in a foreign / unknown country in a way that would allow the parents to later access her corpse and yet be totally undetectable by search teams and dogs at the time - that is until Eddie and Keela turn up....... Let's also not forget Gerry's meet up with Jez. Gerry is either the coldest, hardest best actor in the universe to convince Jez that he was "relaxed and normal", or Jez is in it, or indeed Gerry was completely relaxed and normal because he was unaware of anything disturbing or untoward. I keep saying - JEZ's statement is crucial to this investigation. Is he impartial OR NOT?

On the unmade bed. We have to remember; If Madeleine was ever in apt. 5A (as would seem to be the case from the dog evidence "E&K"), then she had to be manoeuvred out of the apt. post mortem. There are statements about small cars parked in front of 5A, potential Freudian slips by JT and DP about JT carrying Madeleine in the way ascribed to Tannerman, then there's Gerry, his missing minutes and the Tennis bag theories, etc. etc. So we can pick from a number of possible scenarios. Who knows perhaps she did leave the apt. via the window and that's why the bed was crumpled. But in all probability - not alive and by some German patsy abductor.

Well, that sure is some crazy notion.

This is fast moving into the realms of fantasy, something it's taken a very long time to eradicate from CMOMM's vision for fact and evidence.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best.

The forensic photographs contained in the PJ files, first taken by Joao Barreiras in the early hours of Friday 4th May 2007 and the second taken by the police team on the afternoon of Friday 4th, show different interpretations of the same story.  It's debatable whether the change of scene was down to team McCann interference or police activity.

I strongly suggest the latter as the McCanns had moved out of apartment 5a during the night of 3rd/4th May, they wouldn't have been able to alter the crime scene after they vacated.

That aside, I can't see any reason to suppose the furniture in the bedroom occupied by Madeleine and the twins was in any way altered in connection with the contrived abduction scenario - what would be the point?

I can however understand if the parents McCann moved furniture around to accommodate Madeleine and the twins on their arrival at the Ocean Club on Saturday 28th April or early Sunday 29th April.

I feel this is nothing but a wild goose chase.  What you see is what you get - the McCann version of events.  

At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

Kate McCann witness statement - 4th May 2007

This was untrue, as verified by the PJ after their forensic examination of the crime scene.

Trying to ascertain why the spare bed cover was ruffled is like howling at the moon.  The bed cover was forensically examined so if there was any incriminating evidence it would be documented.  It's not!

Move on.

ETA:  Never forget, contrary to media reports in the early days, the crime scene (apartment 5a) was contaminated by the McCann group and various others, before the police were called.  Anyone of them could have been (and were) in the children's bedroom rummaging about.