Leave No Stone Unturned

Having been a lurker here for some time, I've often seen the dismissal of the idea that high level elite trafficking rings may have had an involvement in this case.

Whilst it's not wise to throw wild ideas around without evidence, I'd like to point out a book I read last year that I found both terrifying (as a parent) but eye opening to discover a world that I was previously completely blind to.

The book is named "Pedo Empire", with contribution (and part written) by ex CIA director David Steele. 

The book dives deep into the world of child trafficking, and explains how parents sell their children into elite trafficking rings with protection from government agencies. The book dives into occult practices and other areas that I'm sure a conspiracy theory would find fascinating. 

Feel free to check it out; it has made me ponder on the vital factor that for me is still unexplained: 

Why so much protection for the McCann's. 

I'm working on a film at the moment and would love some understanding or counter arguments to some posed theories.

1. Is the idea that John & Tony Podesta being in Portugal at the time of the disappearance widely contested? If so, can somebody provide me context and evidence that they were not present?

2. It is my understand that the McCann's had visited Clem Freud a few months after the case, is there any counter to this or is this validated from Kate's book? 

3. The e-fits released closely resemble both John and Tony, what is the consensus generally about this?

This matter has of course been widely discussed here on CMOMM, as you may or may not be aware.  I have no wish to rekindle such bizarre baseless theorizing here on the forum so I'll leave it to you to find for yourself.  All you need do is type Podesta in the forum's search engine and all will be revealed.

This is not the first time you mentioned your film making project since joining the forum a few days ago, I'm rather concerned about the possibility of misquotes if citing the forum in your production release, or using the forum as an information base.

Such as the Podesta brothers is but internet rumour with no substance to take it forward.  

By all means use whatever material you like for your own production, it is of course your prerogative so to do but do not use CMOMM and/or MMRG without 100% assurance that the forum and it's members past and present, will not be compromised, misquoted nor quoted out of context - even then not without authority.

I hope you understand my concern here.  From what you say, you are here to pick our brains so to speak, you've hit on the right place and I'm sure we are all flattered, in many respects but over the many years the forum has shown how opinions differ widely on the many aspects of the case.  Thus it's not a good idea to present something in a film you anticipate will draw the attention of thousands of viewers unless you know it to be 100% accurate and true to form.

Personally from the perspective of the forum, I'm not at all happy about this and where it might lead.  By all means use the forum as a reference source, that's essentially why we are here but targeting individual members to participate in something they know nothing about makes me very uneasy.  Indeed, maybe a better way forward would be to link this forum to your social media profile, whatever it may.  Then your audience could read for themselves and draw their own conclusion.

Also, if you're looking to pick our brains, it would be helpful if you stay consistent with posting on the open forum.  It makes it very difficult to get the overall picture of anything if part the work is conducted by private messaging.

We all aim for the same goal here on CMOMM, even if opinions differ on the detail - there is no need for any member to resort to private messaging or email contact.

I've already given links to the videos of Richard D Hall and PeterMac's free e-book, I think here it's important to mention the translated PJ files.  The documentation is essential to get an overall idea of the basics before embarking on a journey of discovery..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Whatever you do, please be mindful of the forum's reputation and the integrity of it's members.

Thanks.

Hi there,

The purpose of the questions is to get more information, not to quote a forum or its members.

I disagree with regards to messaging actually, I've contacted authorities on the case (which I'm not, hence the questions), and the very reason I've done that is to ensure that I'm getting the best information, but also to ensure that the individuals are happy for me quote their research.

I'll not post again, and will just read.

Thanks.

On another note, the purpose of the film is to make the information more accessible.

Sending people to a forum to spend a long time reading up, cross referencing and what not, whilst a sensible thing to do, is not the way to distribute and widen an important story like this. Accessibility is important.

I must also correct you, in saying "I know nothing about" the case, wouldn't be accurate. I've mentioned I've followed this story for some time, but equally wouldn't say I'm the authority on the subject, hence the desire to connect with the individuals that are. That would be the sensible thing to do, in order to ensure the production is as accurate as it can be.

A part of that means I'll ask questions. That's what anyone researching will need to do.

Previous documentaries that have been produced on the topic, whilst extremely helpful, wouldn't hit a mainstream audience just based on presentation alone. Whilst I appreciate "presentation doesn't matter", it's important to create something that's going to capture interest. After all, the goal for me personally is to spread an important message.

Anyways, I'll keep my questions at bay.

I would like to share the script prior to me producing anything to ensure the story, accuracy and everything else is on point and correct. That's my plan and hopefully I may have the support of the forum to bring that together.

This isn't a project I'm being paid for, and I'm simply doing what I can to help create something that may hopefully have an impact on this case.

joeyxoto wrote:Hi there,

The purpose of the questions is to get more information, not to quote a forum or its members.

I disagree with regards to messaging actually, I've contacted authorities on the case (which I'm not, hence the questions), and the very reason I've done that is to ensure that I'm getting the best information, but also to ensure that the individuals are happy for me quote their research.

I'll not post again, and will just read.

Thanks.

joeyxoto wrote:Anyways, I would like to use this forum as a place to post about the film, the structure of the film, and have your involvement and help in creating this project. Everyone involved of course will be credited, but this is a voluntary project, I will not be selling the film - and it's purely for free distribution only.

We are doing this for Madeleine and for justice.

Please let me know if you can help, and if this forum can be a place for me to share my progress on the project

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

For the record I have never said you know nothing about the case - where did that come from?

Nor do I wish you to stop posting - where did that come from?  On the contrary, I wish you would post on the open forum.  Your rationale is noted but as I've already said, anything anyone would need to know is documented on the open forum where we are open and honest - it's all here for all to see.

You wont find any hidden secrets that haven't been shared publicly.

For the benefit of members and guest readers alike, I have been contemplating drawing together all the most important factors of CMOMM/MMRG research in one place to relieve the tedium of navigating the forum, on reflection it's not really necessary as the information is already plain to see across the forum.  I don't want to clutter the forum with yet another duplicate thread - besides, I like to take members and readers on a journey around the forum.  A tour of discovery!

Here is one such important sub-forum that should be of interest to you..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Whilst I'm here, would you have any objection to my creating a single thread for you to house all your questions, observations and work progress, rather than you having the trouble of starting a new thread on every point of interest?  I think this way forward would be beneficial to you and the reader.

Please let me know, if you agree I will get to work immediately, well almost immediately.

I was wondering if anybody had seen the Netflix series "The Cry".

I finished watching this a few days ago and I was very surprised with the similarities in the story to the Madeleine McCann case. When the producer was asked if this was based on the Maddie case, he said it was "inspired" by the events in Portugal.

I highly recommend a watch! It's refreshing to see somebody in the media creating something that challenges the story, albeit indirectly through a "fictional" story.

 The story is about a high-flyer and his wife who seemingly have a child that is quite difficult to look after, who are using medicine to keep the child quiet during a trip. I won't spoil the rest, but you probably already know what might happen.

Is it available on any other network. I refuse to pay for Netflix.

Many major video streaming platforms have The Cry catalogued.  It all depends on your geo location which streaming service you use, or subscribe to.

As to be expected, the show was discussed here on CMOMM at length at the time of it's release.  Again if you use the forum search function no doubt you will find it hidden somewhere in the archives.

I've watched the production a few times, never could I see any remote similarity with the case of missing Madeleine McCann.  It was however a good gossip feed for a while.

You've started another thread joeyxoto - would you please reply to my question a.s.a.p.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks.

I don't know if I'm using the search wrong, but I didn't see any related topics about this specific series.

I'll take a look at the other thread.

Verdi wrote:For the benefit of members and guest readers alike, I have been contemplating drawing together all the most important factors of CMOMM/MMRG research in one place to relieve the tedium of navigating the forum, on reflection it's not really necessary as the information is already plain to see across the forum.  I don't want to clutter the forum with yet another duplicate thread - besides, I like to take members and readers on a journey around the forum.  A tour of discovery!

Here is one such important sub-forum that should be of interest to you..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Whilst I'm here, would you have any objection to my creating a single thread for you to house all your questions, observations and work progress, rather than you having the trouble of starting a new thread on every point of interest?  I think this way forward would be beneficial to you and the reader.

Please let me know, if you agree I will get to work immediately, well almost immediately.

Hey there,

I think it would be very useful to have a thread, as I can use it to share my progress and also get help from anyone willing to provide any additional information shoot I need it.

I appreciate that.

Thanks

No it's not you, I've had a look myself and couldn't find anything.

Quite frequently subjects are raised and discussed on an irrelevant thread, hence I'm always banging on about keeping on topic .

I'll dig around the back of my mind to see if I can remember where it might have been discussed - I might be some time.

joeyxoto wrote:Hey there,

I think it would be very useful to have a thread, as I can use it to share my progress and also get help from anyone willing to provide any additional information shoot I need it.

I appreciate that.

Thanks

Here you go!

I will move over all your previous posts in due course.

OK?

As I can't adjust the date and time of past posts it might appear a bit muddled at first but it'll soon improve once you get going.

CaKeLoveR wrote:Does The Cry bear a resemblance to  A Cry in the DarK? That was about the dingo baby case, which may have been mentioned here.

No, this series is very very similar to the Maddie case. It's almost like the producer/director knew he couldn't get away with making a MSM story, so decided to make it a "fictional" story that essentially is the same story, with some small differences.

What's beautiful about the story is that it reels you into believing the parents are actually innocent at first. You don't expect it, and I suspect in the early weeks of the case with Maddie, we all felt that sympathy and panic for the parents as well.

Then the series takes a twist. I enjoyed it alot.

I searched for this and it is only available to purchase on Prime Video despite being a BBC production.

the cry did not get that much attenttion, but it has a topic; 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks a trillion for that onehand !

As you say it's not much, I'm sure it was discussed elsewhere on the forum. I remember having something to say about it

no thanks needed, verdi, i know you would be able to find it also. 

there is a bit of history about this tv series, it is formatted from a book written by helen fitzgerald. it is more about her way of writing , than this book., so it is not strange to see a typing of characters in the series 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

and there is a podcast interview done with her on you tube. and she looks to be what we called overhere a bread writer. nothing wrong in itself. it is work. it would mean such type of writers like to write what readers like to buy. more seen as a form of entertainment book, than literature. 

she was not a newbie in the world of tv scenario writing herself anymore. 

but my own conclusion is, yes of course it took lines from the madeleine mccann case, because people do pay for almost anything that hints at that case, or even is also about a missing child, because of the madeleine mccann case. . most likely never written from the personal opinion of the writer, but just because such stories do sell. so it has the upmake of just being making money of an hot topic. 
not taking any risk of mad mccann family members, because it is just called fiction. i do not see any connection that the book even was written to give another opinion about the real missing persons case at all. 

and in today's world of social media, you do need to pretend a series and book like this has lines parallel to any real case, because a member of the public will do that for you, so no risk, to make it. 
so the only good reason why book and series are out there, is because it would earn money. 

it works the same with all the stories out there about stolen and kidnapped horses, tell your friends about it and at least one would say, o, it must be about shergar. 

and for the series, the mccanns already became a stereo type as parents of a missing child in the eyes of the public. so it is not that strange to spin off the characters and behavior from the real case. writers likes it , if you get the idea you are in a real story. and that is also why we do keep on reading and looking at fiction. 

so it is just another of many more stories about the mystery of a missing child in the fiction section of the library.

are you sure verdi, you had an opinion on the tv series the cry, i can only find one of you about the missing.

something about a certain actor you once did see without clothes on and a flower in/on his bum?

and i can find a 'no longer there to see' use of a picture in the bullocks of grange topic taken from from the cry series. 

but for who want to search this on the forum also, it can be done in at least 3 different ways.

the first, just use the search engine of cmomm, but it is all but perfect, that is just because of the software of forumotion. 

you an also do it old skool; type the full internet address like this; https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/, put : or ; directly behind it in google and fill your choice of words behind it. 

and when google likes you, as soon as you start typing jill they ask if you want to search the forum in full and you just type your search terms in, and google will search the forum for you. 

and often all 3 do get a bit different possibilities. 

and there is a pretty new fourth one, but you need a bit of luck, there are forum suggestions down under the page you read. 

and when you want to search just one big topic, in google you can do the same by copying the full topic address into the search bar, again put : or ; directly behind it and type your search term.

and if you remember you did read it in the last 3 months you can give it a try by just searching your browser history. only works if you are not a cookie thrower. 

but we maybe are getting a bit lazy, because verdi is usually awfully quick in posting everything we need , even before it is asked. thank you for that, verdi!

onehand wrote:something about a certain actor you once did see without clothes on and a flower in/on his bum?

Ah yes, I remember it well ....

onehand wrote:are you sure verdi, you had an opinion on the tv series the cry, i can only find one of you about the missing.

You could well be right onehand, it does get a bit foggy at times .

I blame climate change!

I have seen both films, The Cry and Missing - he of anal shrubbery.  The former many times because it was being streamed on a platform I used to subscribe to - they have a tendency to repeat shows one hundredfold.

Either, I couldn't really see any connection with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, if you look hard enough you can always find something to cling to, or weave into the never ending story.

As you say, it's an authors prerogative to call on real life crime cases to build a foundation for the novel or film script - and they do, always.  Poetic licence.  The minds of the public have indeed been saturated by this case, aided and abetted by the parents McCann and their propagandists in chief .... the media!

The Shergar simile is spot on.

Now,  talk madeleine by KATE MCCANN and we might be on to something ....

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Not forgetting to include Gerry McCann's blog that was, not in novel book form but nonetheless interesting to compare notes with his wife's version of the truth events..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The full monty is stored chronologically for posterity on pamalam's gerrymccannsblog.

Good read..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hi all, a few things I'm struggling with:

1. Richard's film mentions gloves and a syringe found in the McCann's follow up apartment after they moved from 5A. I cannot seem to find any evidence to back this, anyone know anything on this?

2. Is there documented evidence that explains Gerry was refusing to have his twins tested, and that this was done 5 months later? Google searches just show me "We can prove we are innocent" articles with no details of timelines.

This is to support a portion of the film. I'm collating items that can back every single point made, I want to ensure this is thoroughly researched and essentially not be a situation where 1 incorrect statement jeopardise the validity of the entire film.

Firstly if I may say, no one is expected nor obliged to agree with every detail documented by CMOMM/MMRG research.  With little confirmed fact and evidence to work on, much is conjecture deduced by logical thinking and informed opinion - it's wise to be cautious.

Point 1:

No, there was never a syringe found in the holiday apartment/s occupied by the McCanns anytime during their Portuguese sojourn, I can't begin to imagine where such nonsense emanates but I'm guessing mischief was a forethought.

For accuracy of reportage, look no further than the Portugal Resident, usually presented by journalist Natasha Donn - always finger on the pulse.

Claims that medication found in McCanns apartment

By shareit - 30th August 2007

REPORTS IN Portuguese national newspaper Correio da Manhã claim that Judicial Police officers found a syringe with tranquilizer medication on a bedside table in the McCanns apartment, where Madeleine went missing.

However, there is no indication when this is alleged to have been found. The Resident spoke to Olegário Sousa, spokesperson for the investigation, who said that he could not confirm nor comment on press reports.

It has been widely reported that Gerry McCann stormed off a television set during an interview with Spanish television, after the host asked him about the blood that was allegedly found in the apartment. He left Kate on the stage on her own but returned later to complete the interview in a calmer state.

Sousa said that they were “are all waiting for news” on the test results of the DNA evidence that was taken to Birmingham, England, adding that patience was important at this stage.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The latex gloves continue to this day to be an enigma, personally I think it yet another creation of an over imaginative mind.

The pair of latex gloves was photographed by the forensic team inspecting the villa occupied by the McCanns..

Official document of search and seizure.

Inspector: Joao Carlos
Date: 02 August 2007
Place: Rua das Flores, 27

Officers: Tavares de Almeida, Vitor Matos, Joao Carlos, Carlos Dordonnat, Carla Brito (Interpreter)

Consent given by: Gerry McCann

Legal formalities having been observed a search was undertaken.

The following describes in detail the number and quality of papers or detected objects, and the exact place of the same with the seizure declaration and indication of how they were packed up:

- The present search was started at 18h00.

- The residence comprised: entrance hall; a WC (01) on the left; twins' bedroom; visitors' bedroom with WC en suite; master bedroom [bedroom of the couple]; lounge; dining area; WC and kitchen.

- All outside rooms [annexes] searched nothing was seized.

- OBJECTS FOR EXAMINATION

1. One (01) pink cloth toy, with yellow paws and ears and blue label, make "cuddle cat", with a third in wood and a green band, alluding to Fatima, that was found in the lounge on top of a large chair [armchair].

2. Clothes, shoes, bags [hand-bags; suitcases] and travel bags [knapsacks] that were packed as follows:

- Lounge, two boxes.
- Master bedroom, two boxes.
- Twins' bedroom, one suitcase.
- Visitors' bedroom, one suitcase.
3. Various papers.
- One bible, bedside table of the master bedroom.
- Two diaries and a notepad that was found in the cupboard of the master bedroom.
- On pair of latex gloves, that was found in a drawer of a bedside table of the visitors' bedroom.
- There being nothing more to record, the present activity was ended at 20h30.
- This document is drawn up to ratify the truth of the above and it is going to be duly signed.
(four signatures)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Over a period of time, the latex glove was embellished in the world of cybersleuths.  It has been suggested Gerry McCann was photographed wearing a latex glove, or something similar, during the trip they made to Huelva, Spain.  The matter is very much open to difference of opinion, personally I don't think it signifies.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Point 2:

As with most aspects of this case, conflicting reportage, commentary and opinion differs widely.  Over the years it's become commonplace for the spoken word to be isolated, thus misconstrued when taken out of context.

I'm not entirely sure whether your question can be answered through official documentation, that's to say the Portuguese investigation files.  Across the board many versions of the story of sedation have been raised, in particular Gerry and/or Kate McCann's reluctance to have the twins tested until too late, that would be the implication.  The issue is again obscured by the very many versions of the same story spewed forth.

Snr Amaral had this to say during an interview in May 2009, which covers both your points raised..

Gonçalo Amaral in Amsterdam, 05 May 2009

Q: Is it true, as was reported in De Telegraaf, that an injection needle was found in the apartment?

A: No, that is not true. In fact we have found no medication at all. None at all. Except for 'likdoornpleisters' = litt.: corn plasters (for your feet - sorry can't find a better translation).

Q: Do you think the children were sedated?

A: There is no doubt.

(Here he told an anecdote: that Kate called a colleague of Gonçalo Amaral's in the PJ, in August, to ask them to check the twins for traces of sedation. Apparently Kate was alone when she called, and a bit upset. That same afternoon, Gerry called and cancelled the request.)

I'll have a look around for anything in the documented files that might confirm the sedation test allegations, when I have more time. Meanwhile I'm sure other members will have something to contribute.

I wanted to contribute to this.

For context, I work with software, websites - it's my world.

There is no way that a website will publish something like this without human intervention.  

Wayback machine is built on an algorithm that picks up data published on a website in real time. It uses bots and crawlers to find the information.

For this "mistake" to of happened, we are deducing that not only Wayback machine got it wrong, but so did the CEOP website. That to me seems very unlikely.

Have there been other instances where Wayback machine has gotten this wrong? If so, can someone verify or link this so I can understand?

What typically happens with content is that you schedule content before it goes live on a website. Example, I'm releasing something next week, I do the write up today.

Wayback machine has detected that this article was written on that date.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Topic moved to Joeyxoto's thread.

Verdi

DeanSwift wrote:

Cammerigal wrote:

DeanSwift wrote:Maybe my first post was too long and technical.

Can anyone explain why Jim Gamble created a folder called CEOP-April-30-2007_files to put images of Madeleine McCann in?


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This folder was not used in another CEOP pages, so was not some multi-purpose folder used by many pages.

It was a folder created specifically for the McCann page.

And it's dated April 30, 2007.

If that isn't a smoking gun, I'm not quite sure what is.

BTW, the answer to my question is that Gamble did not create that folder.

This is indeed affirmative evidence, from my systems specialist perspective. Well done @"deansmith".
The file and folder name incorporates a date code, April 30 2007, which is good IT practice by a practitioner to provision the web page by a less competent person as of course, there may be many folders and pictures. 
Logically, to support the Gamble argument, the coder should have provisioned that folder or file name on at least May 3rd, the alleged "abduction" night.

Thanks Cammerigal for acknowledging and understanding the significance of the folder name.

At this stage, I would like to clarify the conclusions that can be drawn from it.

1. We can conclude fairly safely that an external web designer (vendor or provisioner) sent CEOP a folder of files called CEOP-April-30-2007_files on April 30, 2007.

2. We cannot conclude from the folder name alone when the page was commissioned or uploaded.

3. We cannot be sure of CEOP's motives for commissioning the page. Maybe it was just a strategic decision to move into the missing children space and the timing of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann was coincidental, fortuitous or "ironic", as CEO Paul Tuohy said when he relaunched Missing People in May 2007. Inspection of CEOP's home page and What We Do page at the time reveal absolutely no interest in missing children. Maybe it wasn't. We just don't know at this stage.

4. We can assume that the delivered CEOP-April-30-2007.html file did not contain any references to Madeleine McCann, as that would've alerted the external web designer to a criminal conspiracy. The web designer probably left placeholders in all relevant places in the file with instructions to CEOP on how to edit the file.

5. None of the above presupposes any criminal act. Jim Gamble was perfectly entitled to make the strategic decison to move into missing children and to commission a missing child template page in preparation for a missing child case.

A lot of the above may seem obvious, but I think it's useful to define the parameters of what we know and what we don't or can't know.

If there are no objections or questions, I think we should now proceed to the next issue of identifying the actual date of the upload of the page in the light of our new understanding of how the page was created, delivered and edited.

Just on this; 

Are we saying that the folder was coincidentally created and then Madeleine's images were added? 

Because if that's the case, then why did Wayback machine find the article on the 29th? 

We can't have one without the other. I.e. if the folder shows madeleine and its dated April 30th, this further clarifies the Wayback machine article. 

Am I missing something?