How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged"

kikoraton wrote:I think that you loyal followers of this thread deserve a summing-up, seeing as how we have exceeded 80 pages and cannot expect to discover much more from the limited material made available to us by the kindness of the Portuguese authorities. This is how I see it:

• Madeleine McCann died early in the McCann holiday. Several days before 3 May, when K and G would have us believe she was “abducted”.
• the death was covered up and an action plan was formulated.
• the crêche records were falsified.

However, the drift of this thread throughout has been that there was a substitute Madeleine, with a clear implication that this was planned in advance, with the 'substitute Madeleine' already there in advance. So the theory ran, this was premeditated, and Madeleine probaly was killed/died, presumably deliberately, on the Saturday night.

Certain evidence was brought to bear on this thread to back up the suggestion that Madeleine died on the Saturday night. The theory included suggestions that the family with the substitute Madeleine flew out early morning on Friday, hence the interest in who checked out on the Friday morning etc. This was all beign actively discussed until yesterday.

The problem of 'the last photo' and the lack of DNA evidence of Madeleine in Praia da Luz seemed to fit into this theory.

However, kiko, your summary swings right away from those theories and proposes Madeleine's early death during the holiday. Though you have not been explicit, you do now appewar to have ruled out a substitute Madeleine having been used. Instead of the creche records being explained by everyone on the site thinking - wrongly - that the Madeleine they saw was really Madeleine McCann, now you are back to relying on the creche records having been falsified.

Although you do not say so, I assume you are pointing the finger at the McCanns and at least one of the creche workers/nannies as being responsible for the falsification - inless you think the falsification was perhaps authorised or carried out by those higher up?

I just think for the record - whilst we are sumamrising - that it must be clearly stated that these two alternative theories have been discussed on this thread. The one you have just proposed is out of line with most of the thinking on this thread so far.

However, I have said all along that I prefer the 'early death and cover-up' explanation to the 'it was premediated with a substitute Madeleine in place from the start' theory.

I don't think there is sufficient evidence on this thread or elswhere to say which of these two hypotheses better fits the facts, but maybe you have more evidence or analysis that we don't yet know about.

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:

kikoraton wrote:The eagle has flown. It is circling. It can see its prey down there in the Rothley Towers. But they don't know when or from which direction it will strike.

A chill ran straight down the old spine whilst reading about this eagle. One would swear on oath that a draughty wind seemed to whip into this room, and the curtains billowed out in a sort of ''whoosh''. In much the same way as it happened to Kate McCann, on one of the many checks which she and her husband, and all their friends were allegedly doing every hour/half hour/fifteen minutes/ten minutes/five minutes/take your pick.

Tony, I have deliberately been very sparing with my words. I haven't changed my view one jot, you will be pleased to hear!! Substitute, without a doubt. (I was terribly surprised when nobody took me up on my suggestion that the eagle knows who she was, a few pages back). Hey, ho.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I've got it [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and now I feel like really celebrating, is it the 4th of July yet?

Halligen will have even bigger problems now. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

kikoraton wrote:Tony, I have deliberately been very sparing with my words. I haven't changed my view one jot, you will be pleased to hear!! Substitute, without a doubt. (I was terribly surprised when nobody took me up on my suggestion that the eagle knows who she was, a few pages back). Hey, ho.

Noted. And I am sure you have your reasons for your economy of words.

However, the summary is so short as for us - well me, anyway - to be unclear as to what you are saying.

For example, you said: "The death was covered up and an action plan was formulated".

It appears from that, that you are saying there was no 'substitute Madeleine' there at the beginning of the holiday i.e. that a substitute Madeleine was not part of the plan. That would also appear to rule out premeditation (unless I have misunderstood something).

I have to confess that it is hard to see how a substitute Madeleine could have been conjured up following an unexpected death of Madeleine on holiday. Obviously you have your own ideas as to who that substitute Madeleine was, or might have been, but then you would have to explain all the creche workers' statements about a child they knew called 'Madeleine' or 'Maddie'.

If you really have cracked it all, well good luck to you.

QUESTIONS

If you don't mind, whilst we are talking, there are two findings of your research that I am especially interested in, could you help please:

1. Do you have a direct source please for your claim that Dr Gerald McCann and Robert Murat each switched off their mobile 'phnes within 6 minutes of each other on the afternoon of 2 May and agains witchd themn o nagin within 6 minutes of ecah other around 11.00pm on 3 May? This assertion has as you may know been challenged on some of the McCann-believer forums. Do we know the actual mobile 'phone numbers they were using?

2. Are you able to summarise the main features of the mobile 'phone evidence? (that is, of the McCanns, of the Tapas 7, and of Robert Murat and his circle). I am surmising that within those records there are cluses about when a death or accident to Madeleine may have occurred. I'm not asking you to draw conclusions or speculate, but, in summary, what are the main curiosities revealed by your trawl of the mobile 'phone records?

I would also be interested in your view of whether or not, late on Monday 30 April, Robert Murat was in effect 'summoned' by the McCanns to Portugal e.g. to find a place to store Madeleine, or to act as translator, or to act as the 'Fall Guy' etc. - or maybe all three.

I find it very hard to believe that his early morning flight from Exeter on Tuesday 1 May was unrelated to Madeleine.

That's all

kikoraton wrote:Tony, I have deliberately been very sparing with my words. I haven't changed my view one jot, you will be pleased to hear!! Substitute, without a doubt. (I was terribly surprised when nobody took me up on my suggestion that the eagle knows who she was, a few pages back). Hey, ho.

Oh hec Kiko, Stella has got it, I have not [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I am trying [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] very trying [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Here you go Olive [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Spot the Eagle !!

I don't know anything for definite of course, but I do love a cryptic clue.

Stella wrote:Here you go Olive [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Spot the Eagle !!

I don't know anything for definite of course, but I do love a cryptic clue.

Stella [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Be back later. No, I don't think you've got it, Stella!
The eagle is simply a metaphor for kiko's and his colleague's conclusions, which are now circulating (circling) where they might one day have the desired effect.

ANSWERS

Yes, not only the McCann-believers but also the Murat-fans didn't like my assertion about the coinciding mobile inactivity. That's why I believe it is very important evidence of collusion. But it can all be found in the PJ's Relatório de Análise dos Primeiros 11 Volumes (Fls 1 - 3004) do Inquérito NUIPC 201/07.0GALGS.

kikoraton wrote:Be back later. No, I don't think you've got it, Stella!
The eagle is simply a metaphor for kiko's and his colleague's conclusions, which are now circulating (circling) where they might one day have the desired effect.

Well done Kikoraton and colleagues, very well done. You are one of the heavy weights on this forum, and I am not being rude there. That is why we get so much attention.

Well, Kiko I am praying that someone will act and soon. This farce has to be stopped before they hurt anymore peoples children. The Hewlett story today has sickened me.

As for Murat's return from Exeter to PdL, we got very excited about it when we inferred from the PJ statement that he had booked it very early on 1 May, then travelled with hours. But it became less interesting when somebody on MCF showed, quite convincingly I think, that the translation was muddled, and he had in fact booked it in the early hours of 30 April. Altho it was someone who was always trying to knock my ideas, I didn't bother to argue because they may well have been correct, and anyway, who is to say at this stage?
In either case, it's awfully late to book a flight. Did he travel alone? Somewhere in the suppressed files, I've got an idea there's a statement from a woman who was on the same flight. Maybe the Murats had some influence or understanding with the airline: Flybe is based at Jack Walker House in Exeter.

30 April
Complete silence from GM and KM

1 May
Complete silence from GM
KM – 8 texts or calls during daylight hours. PJ records do not reveal with whom
KM – 6 texts 2216 - 2228

2 May
GM takes 11 voicemail calls, without replying to any. Apart from accessing his message centre, his mobile is inactive after 1549
RM’s mobile is inactive after 1545

I infer that somebody gave RM and GM a signal to stop using their mobiles around 1545. RM had been in touch with his lawyer four times that day. The last at 1544.

kikoraton wrote:30 April
Complete silence from GM and KM

Which is also the same day, well the afternoon in particular, that something very odd happened in the creche. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Shame about my guess though, but never mind. Perhaps I had a premonition? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Stella wrote:

kikoraton wrote:30 April
Complete silence from GM and KM

Which is also the same day, well the afternoon in particular, that something very odd happened in the creche. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Shame about my guess though, but never mind. Perhaps I had a premonition? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Good morning Stella, how are you?
Do you know this jigsaw puzzle is starting to look something like a picture don't you think? So the afternoon creche records were odd, the telephones were turned off. This is the time I need a piece of paper and a pencil [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] so I can see it in black and white. Going to have a little gander. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] for youxx

Ok got my little chart on paper all coloured in with felt tip Luddite that I am [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and straight away ...if Madeleine was taken to the creche at 3.15 and out at 3.30 on the 30th, one assumes, know we shouldn't but there must have been a reason, now was that because she had a tantrum, or was ill, we don't know, if so one of the parents must have been contacted by mobile, again assume, to come and pick her up. But on the 30th both Kate and Gerry had mobile silence, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Or did they just take her then change their minds and release her for the afternoon?

Also looking again at that group of children there was never more than 5 girls, on the 1st, and on the 3rd only 2 Madeleine and the O'Brien lassy. So only on the 1st were there 7 children and 2 of those boys. Not a massive group then even when full.

theolivebranch wrote:Ok got my little chart on paper all coloured in with felt tip Luddite that I am [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and straight away ...if Madeleine was taken to the creche at 3.15 and out at 3.30 on the 30th, one assumes, know we shouldn't but there must have been a reason, now was that because she had a tantrum, or was ill, we don't know, if so one of the parents must have been contacted by mobile, again assume, to come and pick her up. But on the 30th both Kate and Gerry had mobile silence, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Or did they just take her then change their minds and release her for the afternoon?

Also looking again at that group of children there was never more than 5 girls, on the 1st, and on the 3rd only 2 Madeleine and the O'Brien lassy. So only on the 1st were there 7 children and 2 of those boys. Not a massive group then even when full.

Perhaps this was the substitutes first appearance and someone had a change of mind regarding their involvement, so she was taken out after only 15 minutes? Perhaps the other children's parents did not want to be involved either and whipped their children out of creche quick that afternoon, so as not to be associated with what was going on? Who knows?, but that day was indeed a strange one.

Stella wrote:

theolivebranch wrote:Ok got my little chart on paper all coloured in with felt tip Luddite that I am [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and straight away ...if Madeleine was taken to the creche at 3.15 and out at 3.30 on the 30th, one assumes, know we shouldn't but there must have been a reason, now was that because she had a tantrum, or was ill, we don't know, if so one of the parents must have been contacted by mobile, again assume, to come and pick her up. But on the 30th both Kate and Gerry had mobile silence, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Or did they just take her then change their minds and release her for the afternoon?

Also looking again at that group of children there was never more than 5 girls, on the 1st, and on the 3rd only 2 Madeleine and the O'Brien lassy. So only on the 1st were there 7 children and 2 of those boys. Not a massive group then even when full.

Perhaps this was the substitutes first appearance and someone had a change of mind regarding their involvement, so she was taken out after only 15 minutes? Perhaps the other children's parents did not want to be involved either and whipped their children out of creche quick that afternoon, so as not to be associated with what was going on? Who knows?, but that day was indeed a strange one.

Linked to the telephone silence it was a strange day indeed. Ermmmm can we match up with what Kate and Gerry said they were doing that day ?

That's the problem. Gerry describes in detail what they did on the Sunday, then skips to Tuesday, like Tuesday comes immediately after Sunday. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

HiDeHo will know, for sure!

kikoraton wrote:HiDeHo will know, for sure!

Good afternoon Kiko, hope all is well with you. Now this monday silence is in itself very strange. They seemed to have all the rest in such great detail so why skim over the monday? As you say HiDeHo will have it filed away with all the rest.

I've just gone through all of Kate and Gerry's statements searching one word, Monday. This is what I found,

Kate:

The window in Kate's room was closed and she admits they used the blinds, because Gerry broke them and they were repaired on the Monday; the incident occurred on Sunday.

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Gerry:

He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.



Asked, he said that the dinner bookings were made since Monday, it was already the intention of the group to take their meals there.



That, between Monday and Wednesday, not knowing the precise date, when they left the residence by the main door, to place the children in the respective creches, MADELEINE left [went] running to the left to the extreme opposite of the residential blocks where they were lodged, playing with the twins.

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I have a Comparison Timetable for the week, including Monday, but it hasn't been updated since April.

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Here is the list of individual days/times.

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Timetables take a little getting used to. The details are listed across the top and the time is in the left hand column, but needs scrolling down as the table stretches with each additional statement.

For Monday....find the Monday column and as you scroll down, the time (by hour) is listed on the left.

I have created Timeline tables for all the T9 early statements, so easy to see their activities according to what they claimed in the first few days (and arguido statements).

I am working on the Rogatories with only a couple completed.

Just to add....

Monday.....Jez Wilkins claims to have seen the McCanns at the beach on Monday but not yet added to the timetable.

Thanks HiDeHO for the link, I have lifted off the Monday bits, but I'm not sure why it says went to the beach? Did they change something?

The events of Monday 30th April

GM “in the following days they always took breakfast at home”

The apartment was cleaned that morning

KM “tennis class at 9.15-10.15”

JW “I got to know them on Monday, when I arrived at the tennis lesson” “I believe that Kate was with Gerry before the first lesson, but did not play”

Lunch: in their apartment then onto Fiona and Daves

2PM Kids club? beach

Kate took Madeleine back into Lobsters, then dropped off the twins and then had to go back to pull Madeleine out 15 mins later.

(Ella not signed out that afternoon)

The McCanns are believed to have visited Sagres -which is on the country's southwest tip and effectively the "Land's End" of mainland Europe -on Monday, April 30.

A shopkeeper in the town said she remembered them well.

She said: "On the road into the town, Kate was holding Madeleine's hand. On the other side of the road was Gerry with a baby buggy.

"I remember thinking it odd to see him with a baby buggy because I thought the little girl was too old to need one."

She said it was the same day as the stranger taking photographs, although other witnesses said that happened two days later.

TELEGRAPH
Detectives have discovered that the McCann family went to the town of Sagres, on the southern tip of the Algarve, on April 30.

Afternoon: K and J Supermarket

- 16.00 K run 25 min.
16:30 Tennis lessons

5PM High tea
18:30? night tennis women
Recreational area

7PM Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.

Strange [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Why would the McCann's leave the twins in creche, but take Madeleine out of creche after only 15 minutes, then take a trip to Sagres?

A double empty buggy, plus one walking child ??

What's so special about Sagres?

Stella wrote:Strange...Why would the McCann's leave the twins in creche, but take Madeleine out of creche after only 15 minutes, then take a trip to Sagres? A double empty buggy, plus one walking child ??

What's so special about Sagres?

There is this shopkeeper, quoted in a newspaper (The Telegraph). I've never seen a statement from this shopkeeper. I'm not sure there is any other source of information for the alleged visit to Sagres?

I've tended therefore to discount it from my analysis.

But if it really happened, especially given your analysis above Stella, it would clearly be a very significant event to examine and discuss in depth.

That's what worries me Tony, we really have nothing concrete at this stage to go on with that trip.

Perhaps the shopkeeper's statement has been witheld for some reason? Who knows?

Will look to see if Goncalo speaks about it in his book.

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Stella wrote:Strange [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Why would the McCann's leave the twins in creche, but take Madeleine out of creche after only 15 minutes, then take a trip to Sagres?

A double empty buggy, plus one walking child ??

What's so special about Sagres?

Have not got a clue Stella. Just taking key words here Creche, 15 minutes, Madeleine, Sagres, buggy, ?person taking photographs. Now what is/are the links for this out of the ordinary afternoon, and how did they get there?

Stella for you [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

So, not only do the McCann's skip over that Monday, so does Goncalo Amaral. What happened on that Monday???


Sunday April 29th

On the morning of Sunday April 29th, at around 8.40am, the McCann couple and their children again walk the 2 kilometres that separate them from the Millenium to have breakfast. Then, the children are entrusted to the play leaders - Madeleine to the day-care centre in the building that houses the main reception of the tourist complex, while Sean and Amelie stay at the playgroup, near the Tapas restaurant, that takes the youngest children. At around 12.30pm, the parents come and fetch them for lunch, play with them sometimes in the swimming pool or in the play area, then, at around 2.30pm, take them back to the play leaders, with whom they stay until 5.30pm. Sometimes the children have dinner with them.

From the first evening, the routine is established. Between 7.30 and 8.30, it's relaxation time for the parents. After having put the little ones to bed, they have a bath and drink some New Zealand wine as an aperitif. Then, they join the other adults of the group for dinner at the Tapas restaurant. The meal starts at around 8.30 and ends at around 11pm. Meanwhile, every half hour, the parents go in turn to the bedrooms to check that everything is OK.

Madeleine will not go back to the Millenium because breakfast from now on is taken in the apartment with the family, with items purchased at the Baptista supermarket, a few metres away. The rest of the day follows what is, from then on, its usual course: 9 o'clock, the children are dropped off at the playgroup and the parents go to play tennis or run on the beach.

MADELEINE CRIES IN HER PARENTS' ABSENCE

Tuesday May 1st

In the Algarve, May 1st is celebrated by organising family picnics; the first snails are tasted and, above all, maios are displayed - life-sized rag dolls stuffed with straw - on the sides of the roads, in windows or on the doorsteps of the houses. They represent scenes from daily life or from social satire. This popular, one hundred-year-old tradition is carried on and joyously enlivens these first days of spring.