If Madeleine McCann died on Sunday 29 April, what was really going on behind the scenes that week?

to sandancer 89

but raj and neill had wifes, so a bottle each is 3 to 4 glasses each, on a holiday not extraordinary, and it does not tell how much of those bottles were included, or just had to be paid extra for. 

do you remember if they also had after that dinner those 2 sisters over. 

if all numbers are bottles, i do not see all say no to the rest of their free bottle, far more adult guest then bottles in that case. it was their holiday to, remember. 

but i do not see where and why it even would matter, it is not the type of information, that tells what did happen when. alcohol could of course have played a role in an accident with not intended assistance of one of them. it also could be partly a reason why they could hold hardly a strait line, and the differences in the story they did get out. the story of oldfields check is the only one, that were being drunk ,it could be a reason for his words. 

i never have found a pattern between the consumption and what they could had to do the next day, on all types of theories out there. and because we have no exact numbers to work from, you can't make concrete leads from there. 

and some bottles of wine do not do well in their story of the perfect family, that do a lot of sports to stay fit and live healthy by strict routines. 
but sorry, that would be only seen as odd in more calvinistic public than that of the english speaking countries and france of course. it would not fit together in what could be called a dutch moderate lifestyle. and we are the best hypocrites in that field, i know. but if someone would ask it, we would say no. it does not fit. 
but being on holiday, drinking on weekdays, is still acceptable behaviour.

but looking at the party of 2 dining there that sounds very unlikely. they did not make statements, did they?

but also the 14 bottles of wine between them story, did not ended up in the expected drunk as a doornail stories about them in the press.

sorry crusader!

oke, but at least neil and raj did not manage 4 bottles between the two of them. 

the take out i was talking about, was on the friday, the day after, neil and raj are on it for take out, and only one other family was dining that evening.

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at least it is neil berry and take out for 4 people

but i think i found were i have seen it, it is a bit mingled in times, but it is the daily mail;

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this part;

That evening, the two sisters joined the barrister and his wife for a glass of wine on the balcony of their apartment.
They were discussing Madeleine's disappearance and the apparent failure of the police to set up a crime scene when Mr Murat walked past, saw them and joined them uninvited.
Mrs Jensen said: "He was wearing a blue T-shirt and jeans and he said he needed to go home and change because it had been a long day, which was odd, because he had already changed out of the clothes he had been wearing earlier."

After Mr Murat left, the barrister told the sisters he found him "odd".
His wife was distraught about Madeleine's disappearance and the couple were desperate to leave the resort. Their names have not been revealed

the barrister is raj balu. 

i agree, murat on a half dark evening could easily be symington, and even david payne. 

shame those nosey sisters never kept their eyes on the mccanns. 

it always sounded strange, because raj stayed at block 6, under his wifes name cox, and it is said the jensen/wiltshire sisters stayed near them, but the are not even on the list from the ocean club, same page in the pj files, more down under.

same with the boyds. 

i have never found how they have been on a balcony with a view on the back side of block 5. 

in an older topic their rental is placed on g4j. 

there is more of course about who was staying were. and the jensen sisters always have been a mystery because of they changes their booking. 

so their story about never asked to make a statement by the gnr or pj could be explained, because they fell of a list. there is nothing about g4j under a different name, and this was the list from the ocean club itself, not mark warner, maybe because they changes on their own, their booking, by mark warner, but it was never communicated to the ocean club, the could not be found. i have to look up to which name they changed the booking. also two different surnames for sisters could easily mix up, if one tells i'm mrs. jensen and me and my sister have seen this or that, and the booking was changed to the name of the other sister, you just fell of the radar. 

2 good reasons why the pj never asked for a statement, the simply count not trace the sisters. 

this is what i earlier ment you could be a unknown guest for the ocean club. the ocean club list only has the name of the party that makes the booking, so no family balu, but cox. same people, but not known by the ocean club. 

and for the mark warner guest, the ocean club would not have seen any identity papers, because mark warner did keep that in their own hands. also the mark warner guest did not have to show up with all people belonging to a booking, just one was enough to see if what was to be paid from what was quoted by to the access card, not to name, but just to the apartment number. 

to fall of that list could certainly have been fully innocent and per accident, but because of their ways in this case, i'm starting to smell at least a babyrat.

even more down under on the same link to the tapasbookings is another, far longer list, both are named as used for checking at the tapas.

pages in the files ate 615 - 638

this one has jensen; https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/T/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_616.jpg date 1/5

and this one also, but hardly readable; https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/T/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_620.jpg date 3/5

and also here; https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/T/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_624.jpg date 4/5

and here; https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/T/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_628.jpg date 5/5

and here;https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/T/03_VOLUME_IIIa_Page_632.jpg  date 6/5

and here;  it changes from jensen to jensen/wiltshire , all other information stays the same. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

611 and 612 are printed on 8/5 and from the title this must be the people who did effectively use their access card that day. 

but the list from 2/5 is missing

why would there be a list from 8/5 with the people who indeed checked in with their access card. there are no timings with it. would all the access card from the same apartment have the same nummer, only different names. 

and why would the jensen sisters made their booking changes to two names. 

the pj could not have used the list with 'used log inns' used at the 3th or 4 th of may, and the jensen sisters must be on that one, because they take over the tapasbooking of cox/balu

so my theory they fell of the list can not be proved with this list. 

what could have taken place on the 8th of may , that needed this exact list.  and where are the others, because this are the lists who could tell who could be witnesses. 

the only way around the jensen sisters is, if they not only had taken the booking from cox, to get into the tapas, but also a access card registered to cox, so they would never show up in such a list.

so when after their informal statements, it was checked on such a list, the list would say, you where never there, so their story would end up in the bucket with porkies of the day. and that officer, who would usually, just made a note in his notebook, just crossed it over and forget about it. 

to crusader do you know where is to find , that the jensen sisters take over the booking of cox balu for the 3th, and the oke from the manager? 

it could have happen, if the tapas restaurant worked old school, meaning made already the bill proforma, and did that by hand, to have a piece of paper to note extra drinks on it, and only the name cox, was crossed out, and changed into jensen but the access card number was forgotten and still that of cox. 

yes, i have been standing behind bars, the wet ones, also, you have to start somewhere in live. and this is typical something that could have happen to me. even more if it was cox or balu who asked if others could fill their booking, and he did know their name as jensen, but not their access card number, as usual, you would simply say oke, we make that oke when that party arrives, and forget about it. i could have done that easily. 

and if i remembered it the next day, i would just think would it really matter, it got paid, maybe the jensens also used their credit card to pay directly for extras, and i would leave it be, because changing meant only a lot of extra time. the money would stay the same.

you are right crusader, it is never been a check in list, but a check out list. as in bill paid at check out of their bookings. 

still it sounds very strange, to forget about the story told by two witnesses, even it were sisters. it is so standard to make notes, like names and addresses, it is called informal, but that does never mean you simply try to hold it in mind. same as with them naming murat as being present outside 5a on the 3th, and murat also being the translator of this informal statement when it is made. 

these sisters still get attention in this story, because there supposed sighting of two man around one of the neighbouring apartments of 5a. these two man are again dugout to backup carol tranmers story about one man at 5b or 5c on the third around christian brueckner. 

all we know about the statement of the sisters, is they say it was made known to the portuguese police, murat was there when that happened, and long after that they forced a statement in the case, by going to the papers, an statement that is told taken 11 hours, and was done in the uk. 

it is normal, that there is communication in the police about all informal statements, taken by the police officers out there, and together with the informed opinion of that officer if the story sounds true enough,  and need a formal statement taken. it would not end up into a formal statement, if already was known who the two mann are. because one or both already had made informal statements made by themselves. 
or when they already had a row of other informal statements, and did not need that of the sisters, because they had nothing new to say. 

or they were per direct diagnosed as two ugly types of nosey busy bodies, sisters who filled in each other's minds, and that police officer made a run from it. they sound as that, taking something, they always see an unknown male, heard something and write themselves into the story. 
who of us would make a statement that you saw their translator at 5a the night before, with exactly using that man at that moment to translate your message. 

as to find they never made it beyond the papers, no morning talk shows. 

and there is still no statement in the files, did the uk police also tried to forget about these ladies?

i would not take anything for granted what those two would tell, i think they have read to many hours in the works of dorothy gilman, they are beyond real. 

shame some simple theory of usual faulty administration did not take their bones away.

We have discussed the booking of the Tapas restaurant - and as this thread has revealed, and despite the apparently clear testimony of Luisa, the receptionist, there are significants doubt about...
* when the booking was made
* who actually made the booking
* whether a girls was present or not (maybe a translation issue only) 
* whether it is true that manager had to be 'phoned while on holiday to approve this unusual request.

Furthermore, we seem to lack certainty that the McCanns and the Tapas group were dining at the Tapas all week, the booking sheets not providing proof that they were. It is said that the booking sheets could easily have been forged. We can be certain that the McCanns and the Tapas group were there on Thursday. But on any of the other days??

In the light of that, maybe we should look again at Gerald McCann's statement about Sunday and Monday, especially in the light of suggestions that Madeleine suffered a serious event of some kind on Sunday afternoon or evening.

Points to note are Gerald McCann's the vague statements about what happened after lunchtime on Sunday, when we know for certain that the McCanns ate lunch in the Paynes' apartment and then took all the children down to the pool. The timings, even allowing for possible forgery of the time-and-date stamp, suggest that 2.29pm Portuguese time was the likely time the 'Last Photo' was taken. Madeleine was somewhat dressed up in a pink smock and hair bead. 

When we come to AY, there is virtually a complete blank, whereas we get quite a lot more information for Tuesday, Wednesday and of course Thursday.

Here are the parts of his statement of 10 May 2007 that follow their time at the pool Sunday lunchtime:

G MCCANN STATEMENT (EXTRACT

[font=Verdana]----- At 12H30, the deponent and KATE first went to pick up MADELEINE and then the twins, going to the apartment. On this day, Sunday, they lunched on the veranda of DP's apartment with the whole group, including children, except for MATHEW, who was ill and at that moment was sleeping on the veranda of his apartment, that was below and to the left in relation to where they were eating lunch.

----- They took the children to the play area next to the pool, where the playground apparatus is, at 14H15, having stayed there until about 14H20. [Well, actually they took them to the pool as the Last Photo shows] After that time they left the twins in the creche at TAPAS, and either he or KATE, he doesn't know who, took MADELEINE to the creche above the main reception following the route previously described. He clarifies that the drop-off and collection times were recorded at each creche along with the contact number and location of the respective parents. [Vague. Can't remember who took Madeleine to the pool. No information whatsoever about what they did that afternoon. Played tennis? Went to the beach on a hot day? Nothing].

----- At 17h00...

[What happened about the insistent booking of the Tapas restaurant? No mention!]
 
...the OCEAN CLUB nursery care workers conducted MADELEINE and the other children in creche on the 1st floor of the main reception to [the area] next to the TAPAS, under awnings, where they [the children] had dinner under the supervision of the employees and, at times, with their parents. [Well, did you have dinner/high tea with Madeleine and the staff that day? Or not? No mention!] The dinner ended at 17h30 the time at which the employee supervision ended and the parents took over watching the children in the play area until 18h30. [No mention at all of who collected the twins, nor who collected Madeleine, nor what Madeleine had done that day, nor Madeleine's reaction when they arrived. In fact, nothing.] Following this they returned to the apartment, the deponent opened the main door with his key and, then, the rear door through which KATE and the children entered.

[No mention of anything between 5pm and 7.30pm. No mention of bath time, apart from';the hygiene done', reading stories, nothing.]
 
----- The hygiene done, the children were put to bed about 19h30, it being that the deponent and KATE left for dinner at the TAPAS at 20h30. Between 19h30 and 20h30 they took a bath and drank wine, Portuguese or New Zealand, and a beer.

----- That they left the house by the main door, that he was sure he locked, it being that the rear door was also closed and locked. They were the first to arrive at the TAPAS where everyone showed up except only for MATHEW, who was still ill. Though his wife RACHEL showed up for dinner. Except for the situation described above, that occurred during lunch, he did not see MATHEW during the whole of Sunday.

----- Dinner ended at 23h00, during which every half-hour the deponent or KATE went, alternately, to the apartment to confirm that all was well with the children [No mention of a checking regime for the group as a whole. Do we have any evidence from any waiter on Sunday who say they witnessed this getting up and checking?]. On that day only the deponent and his wife entered the apartment. He is sure that they always entered through the front door, not being able to recall if they locked it when they left the apartment [Come on!]. Usually they entered the apartment, in which one of the lounge lights was lit, going to the children's bedroom door that was partially open [ajar] [60 degrees, or maybe 45?] and limited themselves to peep inside, trying to hear if the children were crying  [this still sounds so weird, even 15 years later!]. The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open, the window was closed though now he he is not totally sure if it was locked, and the curtains drawn closed. Ten minutes after dinner ended they had made their way to the apartment, going to sleep soon after [they dined for 2.5 hours, so according to Gerry McCann, they must have checked at 9pm, 9.30pm, 10pm and 10.30pm. There is zero mention of O'Brien and Tanner checking, nor of the Oldfields checking. IF they were dining at the Tapas] restaurant that night, how likely is it that the absent Matthew was baby-sitting all the children that night?  -as later suggested by Paulo Rebelo].

----- In the following days they always took breakfast at home, shopping the day before, generally maintaining the daily routine described above. When the children were at creche they had tennis classes, KATE at 09h15, he an hour later, from Monday to Thursday. [MONDAY!!!! No mention?? This would be consistent with the theory that the McCann and the Tapas 7 may have been urgently discussing something very different that day. e.g. if Madeleine had suffered a serious event on Sunday. Other  members of the Tapas 7 also seemed from their statements to be very hesitant, uneasy and stuttering when asked what they were doing on Sunday]

----- From memory, on Tuesday, 1 May 2007...










.

strange this reaction never made into active posts. so i didn't see it earlier.

this timeline work is never easy.

i never have start to work from a statement of a subject, but the other way round, i need first the background, like all that is on paper, in other kind of data, and separate from that part, i want also know as much as possible about the subject. and i never would forget a day has 24 hours. 

{i know most hours will stay empty, because the subject tell you they were sleeping. but 6 of the tapas 9 were doctors, all with a hospital background, they have at least for years worked a unregulair schedule, so for those people i want to see 24 hours! they let us believe their doctor jobs are just consulent ones, nicely behind a desk, in daytime. but gerry mccann worked no such job, he worked emergency services, this man has no problems with being active at night times, he tells it himself in his arguido statement. the other 5 all have done years as assistant trainees, meaning upper doc goes home at a nice time, and they had to work the dog hours.}

i placed the brackets because this could be a mistake, i once made, because of working from the translations. this would not happen , if i had been in front of the subject, because i could have simply said, wait a minute, what do you mean with those words. in this reasoning my starting point is faulty. the blue accented words are the faulty ones. it does not make it into nonsense, but a bit to many of such points, and your head meets the wall. 

we still can keep this part;

it is not only a monday that is pretty empty, every day between 23.00 hours til the next day about 07.00 hours are empty too. 

this is our box of tools;

i can not say it was not taken into the interviews. the reporting style statement is still common in use, but it only filters what looks promising for the investigation, but it is certainly not all that is said and done. look at the rogatories, half of it is just rubbish. the use is different, report style is more a quick fix, more for memorizing the headlines. you cannot take them out of the rest of the background material you also use. these are a integral part of that.

these reports are usually written from the notes you make during an interrogation or interview, and all in this style are just witness reports. normally it is easy to get back to a witness if you need more. an interrogation report is usually more factual, and often even a true transcript from all there is said, nowadays mostly just typed out like the rogatories are done. 

so from all those interview reports, you only get to see small bits of information, but we cant say it is not in it, so nothing happend. the witness did not told about it, the witness was not asked about it. or it was not important for the investigation, all possible. the officer who did the interview will now the answer, would have a lot more in just notes, and in memory. and we have not.

the other thing we do not have from the backbones of this investigation are the informal statements, and the first 48 hours in, in an investigation, most is still informal. and that will end up in a personal notebook of an officer, or on forms that are used for house to house calls, phone calls, even letters. 
this case a quite unique feature, the majority of the inhabitants of block 5, are part of the tapas 9. so in this case a first line of house to house calls was directly set up in taking statements. if this was a usual block with residents, that would exactly be the bunch you will ring the doorbells on. just the one block of apartments, the rest will follow later. 

informal stands for not worked out to the standard format, with a date, full identification of the witness and the signature under it. from 2005 it became easier for us to check identities of all people over 14 years of age in my country, and we got from there the habit to just write down the upmost basic factual information, with a signature or just the initials of that witness in your notebook. 
so later dated statements do not stand for information that become later to the investigation, it can take months before you had all selected, and had all witnesses whose statement could be important for a trial made on official forms. 

and i have for myself the impression , what we know as the pj files are only the files you would selected for the file you will make for the prosecution office, so the pre trial files. it certainly is not the full working files of an investigation. so paperwork from the house to house calls are far from complete, and they did them, the forensics are not in the usual format a full report looks. but also all the case notes are not there. no registers. no lists of outside and inside crew members. also only the owned  by the pj materials. 

another reason we would have difficulty to fill the gaps, is without direct information the scope of an investigation would not go beyond the 48 to upmost 72 hours before the official starting time of the investigation and that same time after. all before that is of lesser importance, until proven it's needed.

a fair part of what you can do in an investigation is decided by external factors, mostly just money. money decides how many heads you could use and you hardly get to heads it is already down to hours, how many outside experts you can take on, how many testing can be done, material to use. it could easily eat up to a quarter of your time. 

also you have beside the boundaries of the law, also boundaries resulting from the decisions of the prosecutor above your investigation. and in larger cases you end up with the investigation judge. 

this is not even a large case at all, but there is so much cluttering around it, media, politics, company protection, the public. i would not be surprised if the net time for the investigation would not go over 15 minutes of every hour per head. 

so to go back to the statement in the post above, i do think you need first to establish who the person in question is. not just a name, but social components, abilities, not only from a occupation, but also life experiences. 

why , well because we are looking into gaps, with the meaning to find out what could have taken place in these gaps, we do not know what happened, so cannot go beyond supposing and hypothetical, and maybe even speculate. and this is pretty usual in any investigation, but  then you have limited time, and you need a bit of quality, so to set boundaries you want to know who this person is. 

the lowest boundary always will be, if there is been known, that any human, was once able to do something, other humans could do the same. but you would never have the time to look at all and everything, so you can try to look at the person itself and decide what you could set aside, you do not throw it out, it just is set aside, it is common you have to go back and start again from a point. 

so i will show what i could find about this person behind this statement, and by now it could be more than the investigation had, i will tell why i want to know that information;

this is what the pj got by official channels.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] page no. 27

his name is gerry mccann  ; the name is in itself not important. he will become just the subject, someone you see a role for in an investigation. 

he is born in 1968 in scotland. as far as we know, he is a first generation british subject, born from irish immigrants. he is also the youngest son with older siblings of both sexes. he grew up in the city of glasgow.

you can paint from this some expectations that could have formed the subject into the adult he later on became. 

so in that time, sixties, seventies and eighties. there is little known of the true financial status of that family at that time, but you could expect they would be part of the lower classes, from what we have seen of the family. also the youngest sibling would have a upbringing that is less sharp in rules, and has often also protection from older siblings. 

glasgow in that time was not a easy place to grow up. so our subject could have more than average had the chance to become streetwise. would be more be the city boy. 

he is always presented as sporty, and also in a competing way. good in atletics. he plays golf, tennis. so it is a pretty able person, not someone that would have a problem to walk some distances, quite fit. 

what i find remarkable in his background is, his grandfather was a pub owner/keeper and combined that with the task as being the undertaker for the village in ireland. it could mean, this family had a different look and feeling to a dead body. even if the subject himself never had some holiday with this grandparent, it is normal you take over the stance to something from your parents. 

he has a medical occupation, and here we see something strange, it was first outed as a heart surgeon, later on a cardiologist and in his arguido statement we see something different in his own words;

When questioned, he says that he works at the Emergency Room of the hospital where he works every 15 days, however he is not usually called out at night, and if this happens then it is once for 4 days prevention. 

and this sentence sounds strange in english, and based on the experiences before with the luisa statements it could be a good idea to get the full arguido statement translated again. 

this sentence is on this page, and it is on 83 to 85;

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questionado disse que faz servicode urgencia no hospital onde trabalha de 15 em 15 dias, todavia nao e habitual ser chamado durante de noite, e caso suceda e uma vez por 4 dias de prevencao

questioned said that he does emergency service in the hospital where he works every 15 days, however, it is not usual to be called during the night, and if it happens, it is once per 4 days of prevention

but we also know we look at a statement made in english , that is translated to portuguese for the investigation, and in the files we use, translated for us back again into english. 

i already showed earlier how easy it it to get sidelined by just misunderstanding.

but if we are in for nitpicking on statements, we want to keep it as exact in meaning as we can get it. 

and this is very unclear, has he a work schedule of 15 days day shifts, and after that 15 night shifts, but more on a standby schedule, as he tells only every fourth shift he has do something. 
or he works a different schedule and it got in a hush up into this statement after translation and he works 15 day shifts, that could be right, medical personal works often in more than 8 hours per shift, so in hours they meet the usual 'working days' in less actual days, a given month has around 20 standard working days in total, and the hospital reaches out on a average base 4 times in a given month. 

so he his average month has 15 times a shift in daytime. and about every 4th shift he got a call from the hospital at night times. it could be just a call for an opinion, or that he had to go in to see an actual patient. 

i do not know if the nhs has the cardiologist under the emergency services of their hospitals, we do not. 

does this matter at all? 

yes, he is speaking to non british people, and this can get into a mess, because i would place him based on this sentence as the 'first aid' doctor, and that is a very different working field, than cardiology, that is in my country a separate specialism.

  and again yes, because we can take from this part , that he is very able to do concentrated work during nightly hours, and is used to do that in a accurate manner. 

it means we not only have to look for the whereabouts of this subject in day time, but also need to look for activity in the hours of the night. 

my post is not finished, i will work further tomorrow, it is nearly bedtime overhere, i think i can answer some questions, but i think it deserves to show how i arrive into my conclusions. it is not just reading some lines in a statement and that is possible to make it into a separate issue, all is hanging together. and most of my conclusions would still be hypothetical ones.

onehand wrote:When questioned, he says that he works at the Emergency Room of the hospital where he works every 15 days, however he is not usually called out at night, and if this happens then it is once for 4 days prevention. 

and this sentence sounds strange in english, and based on the experiences before with the luisa statements it could be a good idea to get the full arguido statement translated again. 

this sentence is on this page, and it is on 83 to 85;

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questionado disse que faz servicode urgencia no hospital onde trabalha de 15 em 15 dias, todavia nao e habitual ser chamado durante de noite, e caso suceda e uma vez por 4 dias de prevencao

questioned said that he does emergency service in the hospital where he works every 15 days, however, it is not usual to be called during the night, and if it happens, it is once per 4 days of prevention

but we also know we look at a statement made in english , that is translated to portuguese for the investigation, and in the files we use, translated for us back again into english. 

i already showed earlier how easy it it to get sidelined by just misunderstanding.

By way of reply to you and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I just put that Portuguese sentence into Google Translate and it came up with this:

questioned said that servicode urgencia in the hospital where he works every 15 days, however not and usual be called at night, and if it succeeds and once for 4 days of prevention


So we are no wiser.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is correct; his is a desk job, and office job, an academic job, to diagnose hear problems by looking at charts. He might be extremely busy now, looking at all of those vaccine-caused cases of myocarditis, pericarditis and atrial fibrillation etc.  

Reference the '15 days', I wonder if that could mean he worked 15 days a month. We know that for a time Gerry McCann did private work at a private hospital, Spire Hospitals I think it was. 

It is possible that now, as a Professor, his time is divided in some way between working for the NHS Coronary Services and his teaching post in the University.

Professor Gerry McCann

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• NIHR Research Professor (Experimental Medicine)
  
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Professor McCann has established a national and growing international reputation as an expert in Cardiac MRI (CMR) and clinical trials. His research interests include the use of novel CMR sequences in the study of cardiovascular diseases, with a particular focus on coronary disease, diabetic cardiomyopathy and aortic stenosis. He has multiple collaborators locally, nationally and internationally.
Professor McCann is the Cardiovascular theme lead and heads a growing and dynamic multidisciplinary research group. He is also NIHR Cardiovascular lead for the East Midlands, sits on the NIHR doctoral panel and was on the BHF Fellowships Committee (2015-18). He leads the imaging biomarker discovery research and evaluations of novel cardiovascular interventions and the mentorship programme for the Department and BHF Accelerator Award.
 

Qualifications

• University of Glasgow, MB ChB Medicine July 1992, 1985-1992
  
• BSc (Hons 2:1) Physiology/Sports Science 1989
  
• MRCP (UK), February 1995
  
• Dip Sp Med Scottish Royal Colleges, April 1997
  
• MD University of Glasgow, April 2002
  

 

Teaching

Professor McCann’s main teaching contribution is through the supervision of undergraduate and postgraduate students.  He has an excellent track record in all domains and a major focus is the development of individuals within the Cardiovascular Imaging Research group.
In addition Gerry delivers occasional lectures to undergraduate medical students, post-graduate trainees and hands-on clinical training in CMR. He lectures widely on CMR, aortic stenosis and diabetic heart disease and is a regular speaker at national and international conferences.
 

Research

Professor McCann’s research is focused on clinical imaging and conducting randomized controlled trials.  His work has been quoted in multiple International guidelines and the CvLPRIt trial helped change the guidelines on patients presenting with STEMI and multivessel disease. The recently published CEMARC-2 and MR-INFORM trials will influence future guidance on the assessment of patients with chest pain of suspected cardiac origin.
 

Publications

Professor McCann has published over 190 peer-reviewed articles, 120 of which have been in the last 5 years and he is senior or first author on over half of these publications.  Current H-Index is 38 (i10 99/Google Scholar, April 2021) and has over 5,000 citations.
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Top ten Papers in last 5 years

1. Gulsin GS, Swarbrick DJ, Athithan L, …..McCann GP. Effects of Low-Energy Diet or Exercise on Cardiovascular Function in Working-Age Adults With Type 2 Diabetes: A Prospective, Randomized, Open-Label, Blinded End Point Trial. Diabetes care. 2020;43:1300-1310.
   
2. Everett RJ, Treibel TA, …, McCann GP, Greenwood JP, Moon JC and Dweck MR. Extracellular Myocardial Volume in Patients With Aortic Stenosis. JACC. 2020;75:304-316 DOI: 10.1016/j.jacc.2019.11.032
   
3. Nagel E, Greenwood JP, McCann GP, et al Magnetic Resonance Perfusion or Fractional Flow Reserve in Coronary Disease. NEJM 2019; 380(25): 2418-28.
   
4. Kanagala P, Cheng ASH, Singh A, Khan JN, Gulsin GS, Patel P, Gupta P, Arnold JR, Squire IB, Ng LL and McCann GP. Relationship Between Focal and Diffuse Fibrosis Assessed by CMR and Clinical Outcomes in Heart Failure With Preserved Ejection Fraction. JACC Cardiovascular imaging. 2019;12:2291-2301.
   
5. Musa, T.A., …. McCann GP, Moon J, Greenwood JP, Myocardial Scar and Mortality in Severe Aortic Stenosis:. Circulation, 2018; 138:1935-47
   
6. Singh A, Greenwood JP, Berry C, …… and McCann GP. Comparison of exercise testing and CMR measured myocardial perfusion reserve for predicting outcome in asymptomatic aortic stenosis: the PRognostic Importance of MIcrovascular Dysfunction in Aortic Stenosis (PRIMID AS) Study. European heart journal. 2017;38:1222-1229.
   
7. Greenwood JP, Ripley DP, Berry C, McCann GP et al. Effect of Care Guided by Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance, Myocardial Perfusion Scintigraphy, or NICE Guidelines on Subsequent Unnecessary Angiography Rates: The CE-MARC 2 Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA 2016; 316(10): 1051-60.
   
8. Nazir SA, McCann GP, Greenwood JP, … Gershlick AH. Strategies to attenuate micro-vascular obstruction during P-PCI: the randomized reperfusion facilitated by local adjunctive therapy in ST-elevation myocardial infarction trial. European heart journal. 2016;37:1910-9.
   
9. McCann GP, Khan JN, Greenwood JP,… Gershlick AH. Complete Versus Lesion-Only Primary PCI: The Randomized Cardiovascular MR CvLPRIT Substudy. Journal of the American College of Cardiology. 2015;66:2713-24.
   
10. Gershlick AH, Khan JN, Kelly DJ, …. McCann GP. Randomized trial of complete versus lesion-only revascularization in patients undergoing primary percutaneous coronary intervention for STEMI and multivessel disease: the CvLPRIT trial. Journal of the American College of Cardiology. 2015;65:963-72.
    

Current Grants

Professor McCann has secured over £35m in grants (over £10m as PI).

• BHF Travel Fellowship.  University of British Columbia Advanced Cardiac Imaging Fellowship: 1. Understanding Bioprosthetic Leaflet Degeneration in Patients with and without type 2 diabetes - a pilot study, and 2. Coronary Artery Plaque Characteristics and their Association with Outcomes - analyses from the ISCHEMIA trial. £48,837. Co-applicant (Gaurav Gulsin).
  
• BHF PhD Studentship Programme. Sep 21 – Aug 28. £1,775,000. Co-CI
  
• BHF CRTF.  A novel cardiac magnetic resonance technique to quantify altered myocardial calcium handling in diabetic cardiomyopathy and the response to lifestyle intervention (Dr Abhishek Dattani). 10/05/2021 - 09/05/2025.  £298,000.  PI
  
• BHF.  Demographic, multi-morbidity and genetic impact on myocardial involvement and its recovery from COVID-19: the COVID-HEART study. 01/08/2020. £750,000. Co-CI
  
• NIHR RfPB. Accelerated Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance in Coronary Artery Disease. 01/07/2020. £247,938. Co-CI.
  
• UKRI/NIHR. Post-hospitalisation COVID-19 study: a national consortium to understand and improve long-term health outcomes (PHOSP-COVID). 01/04/2020 £8,400,000. Named collaborator
  
• UK-Canada Diabetes Partnership. REmission of diabetes and improved diastolic function by combining Structured Exercise with meal replacemenT and food reintroduction. 01/04/2020. £338,693. Co-CI.
  

 

Awards and Nominations

• Awards - for student supervision (2015, 2016). BJCA trainer of the year 2016 - runner up.
  
• ACC 2015: Best abstract from the UK (CvLPRIt CMR)
  
• East Midlands CRN Finalist: Exemplary investigator contribution 2017.
  

 

Student awards

• Presidents Cardiology Section of the Royal Society, finalists, Alastair Moss & Gaurav Gulsin, Oct 2020
  
• Royal College of Physicians, Turner-Warwick Lecturer, Matt Graham-Brown, March 2020
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• British Society for Heart Failure Annual Autumn Meeting - Early Career Investigator Award Winner – G Gulsin, November 2019
  
• Images of Research, short-listed, Aseel Alfuhied, November 2019
  
• AHA Lifestyle and Cardiometabolic Health Samuel Levine Early Career Investigator Award, DIASTOLIC study team, G Gulsin November 2019
  
• 'The Raine Award', UK Renal Association, M Graham-Brown, October 2019
  
• BIHS meeting, Dr Robert Grayson Award, Best abstract in vascular disease, Dr G Gulsin, September 2019
  
• Renal Association SpR Club best medical student abstract Federica Poli, Matthew Graham-Brown, 2019
  
• Winning team for Best MPHrp (Making People Healthier research programme) Research Proposal at the 10th NIHR Infrastructure Doctoral Research Training Camp, Lavanya Athithan, 2019
  
• University of Leicester Research Bytes Competition - Postgraduate Student 1st Prize Winner, G Gulsin, 2019
  
• EuroCMR, Best poster, Ahmed Khedr Abdelaty, April 2019
  
• Society of Cardiovascular MR Early Career Award: Winner A Singh (2016); Finalists C Steadman (2011), P Kanagala (2018)
  
• British/Irish Hypertension Society 2017 Young Investigator Award Winner (W Hunt). Best Presentation Dr Gaurav Gulsin 2019
  
• British Heart Valve Society 2015 – Young Investigator Award Winner  (A Singh)
  
• BMA student research award 2017 (Runner-up S Ardenwalla)
  
• Royal College of Physicians NHS Trainee Research 2017 Award Winner (G Gulsin)
  

 

External Roles

• Wellcome Trust Expert Review Group- Physiology in Health and Disease- 2020- present
  
• NIHR Doctoral Fellowships Committee 2018-2020
  
• BHF fellowships Committee- 2015-2018
  
• BSCMR Board member 2008-2014
  
• BSCMR Research Group Chair 2018- present; 2012-present. Co-chair 2012-18
  
• NIHR CRN CV Deputy Lead East Midlands 2014-17
  
• NIHR CLRN CV Deputy Lead Leicester, Northampton and Rutland 2012-2014
  

 

Editorial Board and Reviewer Experience

Professor McCann is a reviewer for all the major cardiovascular funders in the UK and has also reviewed for several international funders.
 

Periodic Reviewer and External Examiner Experience

JACC and CV Imaging; European Heart Journal and Imaging and Heart failure sub journals; Circulation Cardiovascular Imaging; Heart, The Journal of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance; European Radiology and the BMJ.
Professor McCann has been external examiner for a large number of PhDs including at Oxford, London, Birmingham and Edinburgh.
 

Research Supervision

Prof McCann has an excellent record in developing junior researchers. He has been the principal supervisor for six doctorates.
Two of his trainees have scored personal NIHR Intermediate Fellowships and have been appointed as Associate Professors.  His post-doctoral fellows and lecturers have been successful in attracting external funding from the NIHR, Wellcome Trust, BHF, the Academy of Medical Sciences and garnering industry support for their research projects.  Three of his PhD students have been appointed as NIHR Academic Clinical Lecturers (ACL) and another NIHR ACL has recently secured a five-year senior lecturer position at the University of Leeds
 
 

Previous and Current Doctoral students

• Chris Steadman 2008-12 MD Relation of LVH and diastolic dysfunction to exercise capacity in AS.  Consultant Cardiologist.
  
• Jamal Khan- 2011-2014. PhD. (shortlisted best in College). Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in the Assessment of the Management of Multivessel Coronary Artery Disease in Acute St-Segment Elevation Myocardial Infarction. Consultant Cardiologist.
  
• Anvesha Singh 2011-2014 PhD. Relation of myocardial perfusion to symptom onset in aortic stenosis.  Associate Professor/NIHR Advanced Fellow.
  
• Sheraz Nazir- 2012-2020. Assessment of Myocardial Injury using 3T MRI and Potential Attenuation in STEMI. Consultant Cardiologist
  
• Prathap Kanagala 2011-2015. PhD Awarded 2018. Characterising Heart Failure with Preserved Ejection Fraction. Awarded prize for best in College.
  
• Gaurav Gulsin- 2017-2020.  Prevalence and Determinants of subclinical cardiac dysfunction in Type 2 diabetes. NIHR ACL Cardiology,
  
• Lavanya Athithan Aug 2017-present. Rest and stress metabolism in type 2 diabetes.
  
• Loai Althagafi- Aug 2018- present. Visceral adiposity and relation to subclinical cardiovascular dysfunction in type 2 diabetes.
  
• Tom Kite June 2018-Nov 2021. Evolving strategies for the management of acute coronary syndromes during the COVID-19 pandemic
  
• Grace Walters - Sep 2019-ongoing. A low-energy meal replacement plan for the treatment of heart failure with preserved ejection fraction and type 2 diabetes: a feasibility study.
  
• Secondary supervisor for a further 3 PhD students undertaking cardiac MRI projects.
  

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i agree with that, but i used it to show how easily your head can go into the porkies.

it has brackets in my example. this case is full of clashes of social cultures in the different countries, who all have their own insights in what is to count into a definition of to much things. i think it plays an extra role in this case, and is the reason for endless misunderstanding. 

that's why i have chosen to not simply give some answers to questions in the mmrg post, but go for a lot of extras. because all those little things are influences in how i did come to any answer, and how much substance it has.

i'm not british, i'm not from portugal, live in the netherlands, and the first result is we live under our own laws and rulings and all could look the same, are hardly equal. 

we see only what is on some document, we know it is part of an portuguese investigation, and by that is in portuguese to be worked by people who live, speak and work portuguese. we can not do that, we have our own settings, and beside the law thingies, we also have differences in life experiences and job backgrounds. 
it means it has lots of extra obstacles, but also extra chances, because we look from very different perspections to it all. the only thing in common is we are the outsiders, we have no active role in the case itself. 

when i first started to look into this case, my first reaction what the wholy macaroni sort. and every 50 words i read after that where followed with, o dear , o dear in dutch of course. a few hours in, my first opinion, was this was the case from my nightmares. it has more the smell of the cases my tutors happily composed together to let our ego's shrink to zero,. if i had gotten this one in class, i would have given it back as , come on, this is no realistic scenario of a case. to much subjects, to little matter, unworkable. give me something better, at least something realistic. 

mmrg is a group of people who know far more of each others backgrounds, then we on the outside accounts, and because all in this case is easy and overly complicated in the same go, i think just tell my answer would not be enough. it needs a lot of back up, so we could follow how we come to that answer. 

gaps in the statements in this case could be there from very different reasons. the most common ones are, the subject was not asked about it, or it was asked but was not of interest for the investigation at that moment.

and the scope of the mmrg group goes beyond the scope of the investigation at the time did. looking for facts and circumstances that make another starting point in a crime possible. it is the same case, but with a total different recipe, and you need also different ingredients. 

most questions are still more about finding the ingredients, that's okay by me, but it means what is none to make the thursday evening recipe, could not resolve the missing ingredients for all other times. 

you know just like me, you cannot investigate everything into the finesses of knowledge you would prefer. 
not even when you work a case yourself, and certainly if you are the outsider, only able to look at the work done by others. i have no problem to picture myself in the place an officer in that investigation has, with that subject before him. i start falling short in it, because i never have worked a case in the portuguese boundaries. and we can see, we have a british subject against portuguese officers, so besides the conflicts of interest both parties always have, there are social and cultural boundaries too. 

that was why i choose the sentence out of that statement to illustrate, were we and the portuguese are send into the dark woods of misunderstandings. besides that there was an enormous pressure from all and everything on this case. we know this. and we have the luxury to look with hindsight. 

answers like the one about his profession, would play a influence in all before and after that answer. 
you are sitting there opposite of the subject, is he lying? only down playing on his job? why? do i need to ask to declare that bit some more? or give him the chance he can lure us in. 

that could have been the result if i was sitting there, and that would have mean i know what is exactly said. 

but is it really something, or just a glitch in the translator' head, or the typist of the piece. 

my first reaction was huh, what, the guy is a cardiologist, emergency services has a completely different meaning for me. it make the subject change from someone who is able to act in a physical manner at all times of a day, into one that is more in the mentally form busy in his job, but still he is able to function in a professional way at all times of the day and night. 

i cannot simply look into gaps in a statement without bringing the subject in it. all hypothetical thinking must be in relation to this subject. if you hypothetical wants him to do something, you need to estimate if this subject has the abilities to do the possible acts you can think of. 

we know more than the investigation on that time in this case. but still we know snippits of who this subject really is. to fill gaps with hypothetical views, you must start from the abilities of this subject. 

you won't go far when it gets to; nah i do not see him walking the street on monday morning with his dead child in a bag, so he can not have done that in the gap. i could have that opinion, but i do think you need to know why and how i ended up into that opinions. it has to be weighed out to all other opinions. but i think on the merits how the opinions do came together. 

i, myself would no longer look to just one statement, i prefer to keep a collection of what is known about the subject to my left, and all statements to my right, and all other intel somewhere between my ears. you can not unthink what you become to know. 

the only thing that stand out in the second statement is the subject is not shy of telling lies, and had the intention in the statement before this one, to frustrate this investigation. so it makes his words from that realization questionable. meaning all he said needs to be backed up with other material. 
i can not use the information as given by the subject to back up other statements either. 

and from the collection of what already is known about this subject, i would not restrict myself in looking into daytime hours, i would want the full 24 hours of each day.

tony, i used deepl to translate the portuguese sentence and the result is in that post.

for what i do know about medical jobs, under the term of specialism, they have often just a minimum shift they have to show up, plus a amount of days with standby shifts. some do have to be at a hospital on standby, but will sleep til needed, most of these are the assistents. the heads of a specialism, the full blown professionals just go home and will be standby by the phone, and some would do that for all patients with a health problem in their field of knowledge, others only for their own patient groups. 

the given 15 shifts are not the only work load, most would work substantial in offices at the hospital, or in a home office. most of the higher pro's would not have a contract to work stated hours. and also can have outside consultations and other obligations in research, being parts of conferences, etc. a shift could stand for just all hours there is to be busy with. 

we have no nhs system, but specialisms worked by consultants who are their own business company, some single , others together in such a company, besides that lower classified professionals would be working in their company, or the hospital they work for. the leading men or women in a specialism would act under third party contracts. as just a patient you would not know it, and it is a overly complicate scheme to handle.

i have absolutely no idea how these lines are in portugal, so i do understand it is possible the translator got lost in it. but still it ,means the quality will devaluate with it. 

i used this as an example as stated in that post, and by uses brackets that are different, then the ones who often become unwillingly part of copied material in a post. 

and i did give the most important part a blue color. 

this discussion, we have now is exactly what gives al lot of misunderstanding in this case. 

we look with what we know and from hindsight to sentences in statements, but we meet a heavy burden of little things, that results from being the outsiders. we use to easy reporting style statements as factual material. and what is out there, is mostly more than once translated, so you get a lot of misunderstanding from that. 

so it means you do have not a clear field to work from. 

i do not like the mess the sentence in my example can cause at all. not because you or peter ended up in it t, but because it is to easy to fell for it. 

the reality is, you and i read the sentence, and it goes into our brain and start mixing in with all we know, but we have to think twice. would there be ever been a cardiologist in the world who would have described his work schedule in this way.  the answer will be no.

so from there you can look how that sentence came there, were could have gone something wrong.
1. could it be a wrong translation from the original we can view next to it? 

so i did typed the text in deepl, i do know it could be less perfect, because i have no ability to get all the extra's to letters as the portuguese are used to. 

the result stay the same, an impossible sentence.

2. i did realize myself the subject from this statement was british and had spoken his words in english, who were directly translated by a translator. and it looks like it, that were it had gone wrong.

3. i have to realize from that point on, that the quality of this translator was not up to a high standard. and this would mean, there could be other strange translations, and this is not what you must want in looking into an investigation. 

your questions from the mmrg group have a goal to find facts and circumstances for gaps in time. 

i would start with a collection of known things about the subject. i especially do not say a profile, because it is not the same. i can not look at something said without viewing it in combination, with viewing the subject together in it. but most of all, you have to know all the material you have to work from is indeed correct. 

the first two statements are made in a reporting style, they are not made to write down what the subject says, but just a summary that contains what at that time could be useful for that investigation. at the time they were made, there was already a lot of informal statements available. 
at the time the case was alive, there was partly access to get a witness in, and it is not uncommon a witness had to come in again. 

for me this is important, because this case and how it was worked, still get a lot of negativ critics, who are based on nothing. and without willing, we are helping to feed those people, to easily. 

for me this case is solved years ago, but that can not be enough, it need to be documented into each part and role every subject plays. even if not one of them ever will have to stand in the courts of law. 

but the way to go, for me, is do it with quality. discussion is still needed, but be clear what you want discussed, the goal you are working to. do not give us a lot of questions, but just one at a time, tell what you already know, dare to be the vulnerable party, put it to the test, piece by piece. it would be a lot more work, i now, but it make it easier for use the not mmrg group members to react. 

you do not want us to think , yeah yeah, use the search button, because i already told what i did know. or worse, that we think, i do remember that, but.... nah, they must know that already. 

to give a suggestion, maybe it is possible to make just a nice large topic named questions from mmrg, with each question separate in a thread of its own.

onehand wrote:To give a suggestion, maybe it is possible to make just a nice large topic named questions from MMRG, with each question separate in a thread of its own.

Replying to onehand:

 Thank you for your suggestions.

Sometimes a thread has a life of its own and staggers from one subject to another quite happily, maybe going a bit off-topic, but worth continuing the thread if people are interested.

The point we had reached was 'What happened on Monday?' and we introduced for discussion Gerry McCann's very vague references to what happened on Monday.

Now, there are threads somewhere on here (maybe Admin could help with link pleases) which were titled something like: "What happened on Monday?", "What happened on Tuesday?" etc. Those threads could perhaps be revived.

The purpose of this thread was to ask what various people were doing that week IF Madeleine suffered a serious event late on Sunday, e.g. what were Wojcek Krokowski, Cat Baker, Michael Frohlich and Patricia Moon, Robert Murat, the Tapas 7, CEOP,  the media etc. doing. What was going on 'behind the scenes', which has been covered up?   

So, onehand, if you would like to mention specific topics that merit a separate thread, please suggest them and we'll open another thread for that purpose.

about monday, and the next tells why good timelines do work.

the first link sharonl gives, goes to a timeline made by stella i think.

we have a lot of story about why dining had to be done at the tapas. from gm and km we got a lot of nagging, difficult to get there with 3 young children. so walking together with this family of 5 was not at their pleasure.

to far, and the distance is estimated, by most people working at the ocean club, between 200 and 600 meters to the restaurant, but this is done a little cryptic it looks like they used different points to start from.
but from that i do take the liberty it was seen as a short walk. we are told it was a bit uphill. 

but then it becomes monday, after lunchtime the mccann kids were put into their creches/clubs, look what happened there.

it is km on her own, who signed them in. madeleine is signed in at 15.15 hours, the twins at 15.25 hours. 
madeleine had to go above the main reception of the ocean club, the twins near the tapasbar. 

this mother of 3 young children tells us how difficult it was the evening of the saturday to walk to the restaurant witrh 3 children, but the next afternoon she has no problem, to take all 3 children on her own, and by the times of signing in, madeleine was first in, so km had to walk with the twins aged 2 years and madeleine to the main reception some streets away, bring madeleine up to the creche room, she would hardly been able to just drop a nearly 4 years old at the doors below. and she signed her in also, so she must had to go in that building.
so she would have to take the twins and madeleine up the stairs, she would never leave the twins at the door. deliver madeleine, filling in the attention sheet, and down the stairs with both twins, and walk back with two toddlers uphill to the tapas reception, and deliver them at their creche room. 

why was walking what is seen as a short distance, it is under a full km. with two adults and 3 children so much more difficult, if km did manage it the that afternoon easily, between signing in madeleine, she needed just 5 minutes to walk with two toddlers to the tapas creche room. 

i never heard nagging of km about that enterprise. 


gm did the morning chores, but used another strategy, he first put the twins on their creche, and then madeleine. he need for that trip with madeleine fro the tapas creche to the main reception 10 minutes, based on the attention sheets, gm also did the return chores at lunchtime, and again he goes for the logic approach, first getting madeleine, and 5 minutes later the twins. 

why moan in your book about a short trip with 2 adults and 3 children to a restaurant, and manage it very well the next time out on your own, and it must have been okay, because the only memorable activity was a trip to the batista supermarket with jane tanner. no moaning about it.

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the exit time on the attention sheet of the creche for madeleine gives a strange time. the 15 is pretty clear, but the minutes not. it must at least be a time after 15.20 hours, and i also could accept a mistake in noting the time, 5 hours on a clock can be written as 5 pm or 17.00 hours in the digital format. so writing 15.00 is a common mistake. normally not a thing to put attention to, but.....

on the sheets of the twins, the time of taking them out is 17.20.

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both sheets were at the high tea moment for the children.

but what made km in a state to mix up such time notations. this is a woman, who has been trained as anesthetist, noting times must at that time being something she would be expected to do with excellent precision even in emergency situations.
why make this mistake in the same circumstances for both sheets has, and go faulty in madeleine's. 

what took her mind out? how could this mother manage the next time she was out with the 3 of them, on her own, seems to manage very well, a time of 5 minutes between signing madeleine in, even if those sheets have been at the front desk in the main reception, it is a good time to travel back to the tapas reception, take the walk between the restaurant and pool to the tapas creche and sign both toddlers in. 

even if she walked together with others of the tapas7, they had to mind their own children. why was it difficult to do on the evening, but not on a afternoon. 

so this story is at least questionable, and even if these sheets at any moment have been falsified, it was done in a stupid way. kate's moaning story about walking to a restaurant is very heavily promoted by themselves.

that kate was on the monday afternoon very successful, at least on some bit of paper, to get around with 3 small children is missing, it is never used as accenting the stories of neglect, when they were wining and dining at the tapasbar. gerry has that bit from his conversation with jeremy wilkins standing outside 5a on the street, while jane was unseen, but flipflopping looking at her sighting. mushing about, when we were staying longer, we would just stay in an evening. 

there is never been a tale from kate to muse about the handling of the 3 found a working way, so they had talked about taking the 3 again to the other restaurant. 

i mean stories to cover the decision they tell us about of keeping their dinners at the tapas, with the children on their own, with some viewing moments. made to bring us to believe, there were no plans at the mccanns side. to scetch that picture of still be somehow unshure parents of 3 young children. we accept being unshure in a young family is normal, so they tried to feed us this view quite nicely. 

so if the sheets are forged, it was not done by someone with experience of handling 3 young children.

if not the sheets are forged, but only the story, this could be a indication of it. all the mccanns had to do, was getting a name on the sheets, and use a pack of around 4 year olds to talk madeleine in. 

and i think, if a nanny had taken notice, would she have told others, or just do what most people do, hunch up your shoulders, they will be gone after the saturday, do not seek the annoyance to become part of nasty things happening. this nanny was still pretty young herself. the majority of people prefer to walk away of trouble. there is no obligation to haul her in to it, at least not that early.

but mark warner, greentrust and ocean club would have very high stakes to play, a story in the papers that a parent was able to sign in a child, without the child ever been there, that is frontpage material for the tabloids. the childcare was their flag to get tourists in. mark warner already made it into the news of faulty regulations about the nannies and care for the children at the egyptian ressort, people would take one story, the second one would make it in to the fact, the childcare is just rubbish, not to trust at all, not save for your offspring, do not go there!

if you use that, to go from there it become easier that helping out to get a better story out is more likely. 
and they had just had taken a look with their advisors on all things about the organisation of the ocean club. 
i would not choose to just filling a gap other parents left on a sheet, just make new ones, they had never the idea all would become public. and even in public means not all of the parents would notice a lok a like handwriting in a messy sheet, even if all have seen them, and it looks like there is never asked if it was their own handwriting. 

so if it was a full forgery of some sheets of 1 kids creche, or just looking away from an action by the parents, both are possible. 

none of the 3 companies mark warner, greentrust or ocean club have been seeking the public. but have walked their butts of to keep the mccanns and large company happy under their hands and eyes.
and if there was some business before the 3th of may, they would be fit for blackmailing. 

for me this could be the very thirst indication, when we look for an earlier time of what happened out there.
big things would be nice, but the are hardly out there, and would have change the history of this case much sooner.

crusader wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think you make a very good point of Kate taking the children to the creche on her own.

She did this twice, Monday 30th pm and Thursday 3rd pm.

In all Kate took the children to the creche 19 times.
Gerry took them 15 times.

This message was received by the Madeleine McCann Research Group many years back, from a researcher who had actually gone to Praia da Luz as part of his research. Here is what he wrote (formatting might not come out quite right):

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A lot of it has been said on the forum, but he did share with us that he had studied the creche records in depth, and has come up with a new theory.

He thinks that the Lobster creche records for Sunday are accurate, so far as Madeleine is concerned.

He then thinks that Catriona Baker and/or the McCanns made up all the timings of the creche records from Monday onwards.

He has been to Praia da Luz of course, and this is his reasoning.

The 'normal mode' of 'dropping off' and collecting the children, he says, would have been as follows:

MORNING & AFTER LUNCH >> Leave apartment with all three >> 2 minutes later drop off twins at Tapas bar creche >> then 10-minute walk to drop off Madeleine at Ocean Club reception, about 600 yards walk away >> Total about 12 minutes

BEFORE LUNCH & EVENING >> Collect Madeleine first >> 10 minutes walk to Tapas bar creche, collect twins >> 2 minutes walk back to apartment >> Total about 12 minutes

It would make no sense to e.g. leave the apartment, take all three to the Lobsters (12 mins walks away) and then go back with the twins to drop them off at the creche after that.

With that in mind, we have looked at the creche records again (twins & Madeleine) and this is what they show:
  
Crèche timings

‘Normal’ procedure:

Morning
deposit TWINS first  Morning
collect TWINS last 
Afternoon
deposit TWINS first 
collect TWINS last   

Maddie       Sn & Am          Who was collected first?    By how many minutes?

Sunday
9.45          -   
12.15        - (nothing for twins)
14.45   14.35                           TWINS                        10
17.30   17.10                           TWINS                        20
Monday
9.30       9.20                          TWINS                          20
12.10   12.20                           MADELEINE              10
15.15   15.25                           MADELEINE              10
15.30   17.20                           MADELEINE              10
Tuesday
9.30       9.20                           TWINS                         10
12.20   12.20                           Same
14.30   14.30                           Same
     -      17.20 (nothing for Madeleine)
Wednesday
9.20        9.10                          TWINS                         10
12.30    12.25                          TWINS                           5
14.45    14.40                          TWINS                           5
17.30    17.20                          TWINS                         10
Thursday
9.10 -
12.25 -  (nothing for Sean & Amelie)
14.50    14.45                           TWINS                           5
17.30    17.25                           TWINS                           5
 
We think, if you look at the above chart, he is saying: why on earth, at lunch-time and in the evening, pick up the twins first, THEN walk to collect Madeleine, and THEN walk back with all three children all the way back to the apartment?

Also look at Tuesday. Did the McCanns really collect both the twins and Madeleine at exactly the same time?

Also, the above times hardly suggest that the crèche records were all signed at the Tapas bar.



.

to crusader, i work from a identical scheme for the sheets as mmrg already posted. 

except there was no getting them back at the creches, in evening time as it is given above, from two different places, all children had to be sammy sneaked to the tapas zone for high tea, and that is the expected place for the parents to get them and travel their own ways back to apartments or other places they had in mind.

so that is the reason the last ending time are te same, or has little pause between them. 

because of nanny cat who acted as the alibi for madeleine alive til she was handed over by signing out to mother kate, the creche sheets would not have meant a lot to the investigation, the only use would be to establish there was indeed a child named madeleine mccann out there. and all was backed up by david payne later.

so instead of file them as evidence, each nicely sealed in non pressure bags, they ended up in a folder om a des, and the chain of custody was breached. so no declarations from the people who are on the sheet, again no one who had taken part in that part of this story ever could have thought all would be public. 
and even in the aftermath, if one of the names got a little idea about, that did i not write, they would never be spoken out with it, this case is not the kind people want to be part of. 

i do think the complete set of creche sheets from madeleine are full forgeries, could be done by the same hand, i would look into the same age group of the mccanns, every generation has his own handwriting styles, most people whose signature or writing is on that sheet are from the same generation as the mccanns, possibly male, at least someone who never had more than 2 children, to transport on foot. and was at least schooled in the uk. 

the parents never had could do that on their own, so to do that, some people of the 3 companies must be into it. 
officers of the pj had gathered the sheets from a desk. all concentration was on the parents and the friends, that blow all out of proportions, so they never got the time to sit back and look twice all there was. 

cat baker must have at least have been in, in knowing those sheets were false, and that alibi she give also. 
and i think she never was at work that thursday afternoon either. i think charlotte was the one who did keep an eye out on the few children that afternoon, and cat was absent without permission. and as that was probably not the first time, that was hanging over her head, did help out, without realizing how all would ended. after her first statement, there was no way back. and that would be a very good reason to become very depressed and get a invitation for the lawyer talk meeting later on. 

i think cat baker is one of many people who did very little, just minor bad choices, and can not get out. and maybe still pays a price on that in her daily life. 

but all still hypothetical. but i will stand for it, that what the creche sheets tell about kates delivering those children in that order never had happened. there is no proof needed for just that part.

and indeed it is needed to say an very well earned thank you to all people who could travel to the places itself. 
i have made fair use of such people, and it did matter very much to me, they were always so nice to be my eyes on the places itself. and i did send some very awkward tasks and questions to do. 

do you have some more information about the other two names, de frohlich and moon, and is frohlich  written with or without an umlaut on the o. am i right this are the people of the pr or audit company that were there the week before already, i do not think i ever have very much into that one. full named of the company they present would be welcome. i was still looking again in the greentrust, so it could be nice to cross reference that.