Re: How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged"

by Guest 27.11.10 14:43

Rainbow wrote:Why would the parents of the substitute even go along with such a hair-brained scheme,the propensity for things to go wrong is immense and they too would be in the mire.

probably for the same reason that the rest of the tapas group all went along with the charade.

Matt Oldfield told the whole world that he knew what really happened, when he said that he offered to check on the McCann children for that night only, as "it was a nice thing to do, seeing as it was the last night". But it wasn't the last night, was it? They still had one more night to go after that and drops himself right in it.

One day they will all end up in the same place once again, but this time it will be behind bars.

by Irish Eyes 27.11.10 14:57

Stella wrote:One day they will all end up in the same place once again, but this time it will be behind bars.

How is that going to happen when the case is shelved and the arguidos are not interested in asking the case to be reopened?

by Guest 27.11.10 15:09

I can explain that one with 2 words. New evidence.

by listener 27.11.10 15:46

Stella wrote:I can explain that one with 2 words. New evidence.

On this thread I have seen examples of very similar handwriting by supposedly different men, which leads me to ask – How much would it cost to hire a professional Graphologist to analyze the records and give opinion? Would this be a worthwhile exercise?

by **kikoraton** 27.11.10 17:01

It can't be hair-brained, since it has survived this long without any police force getting a sniff of a result.

by theolivebranch 27.11.10 17:37

WOW, in the end hubby made a pile of sandwiches and sat by me to read, and agrees 100% about the signatures, as I do.
Just to throw in, a very senior member of the police force in the UK commented, in a rather well oiled state, that the cadaver scent had been planted. But he didn't say by whom.

by soulthief 27.11.10 18:25

Stella wrote:Well soultheif, someone died in apartment 5a and the only person missing is Madeleine.

I'm not in the camp though that this was a planned event long before they went on holiday. Could anyone be that evil? If that had been the case, there would be no scent of cadaver found in 5a, or forensics in the car. Common sense and logic tells me that would have all been taken care of much better.

It's just a guess, but with the creche sheet missing for the twins on the 29th and on that same day a Maddie was signed into creche much later that day at 9.45 compared to all the other days, I feel that a terrible accident happend either on the day they arrived, the 28th, or sometime before breakfast on the 29th.

I agree it was unlikely pre planned prior to going to PDL But then there are those leaflets! & I am also doubtful of it happening the day of the 3rd either because there is just not enough time for them to do all they needed to do to cover up, tha'ts where I wonder about Amaral's theory of her looking out the window as Gerry spoke to Wilkins about 9pm, that gave them even less time. I think the night Mrs Fenn heard Madeleine weeping for 45 mins is when it happened, her crying was meant to stop abruptly, i think that was on the 1st or 2nd , NOTHING explains their lack of grief though, the calmness, tha'ts when I go back to premeditated. There is a quote on NHS abuse of Power, its something like they must have at least talked about this eventuality and had a degree of planning to not contradict eachother! Shocked

by **Jill Havern** 27.11.10 18:30

soulthief wrote:There is a quote on NHS abuse of Power, its something like they must have at least talked about this eventuality and had a degree of planning to not contradict eachother!

Dr Christian Ludke.

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by **kikoraton** 27.11.10 18:50

Lovely to see you here, olive! Glad hubby is on board.

by soulthief 27.11.10 18:59

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
soulthief wrote:There is a quote on NHS abuse of Power, its something like they must have at least talked about this eventuality and had a degree of planning to not contradict eachother!

Dr Christian Ludke.

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Yes, thats the one. yes

by Autumn 27.11.10 20:24

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:
soulthief wrote:There is a quote on NHS abuse of Power, its something like they must have at least talked about this eventuality and had a degree of planning to not contradict eachother!

Dr Christian Ludke.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks for finding that, I came across it again a few days ago and was going to post here but couldn't find it tearhairout

Very interesting and a 'must read' for anyone who has not yet read it thumbsup

by soulthief 27.11.10 20:31

The Vernon Coleman one on NHS Abuse of power too well worth a read.

by YNG 27.11.10 21:55

A mistake or slip up [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

D Webster - " he’d asked for several child seats for the err bus because obviously there were five children in the group and I think there was only, I don’t know if it was one seat or two seats, so there was a bit of time spent at the airport trying to find other seats err and I don’t think we did manage to get all six in the end so we just sort of risked it and were driven to Praia Da Luz.”

by Guest 27.11.10 23:06

The D Webster slip of the tongue. I have THE feeling that this is just à mistaken quote, wrongly written down and not seen and corrected before signing. I tend to think she must have said seats instead of six, and that passed unnoticed by all parties. Just my opinion of course.
parapono

by gazza5678 27.11.10 23:06

Cheshire Cat wrote:

I believe Gerry was on his way to Praria Da Luz to participate in a business meeting along with many of the other folk staying at the Ocean Club (e.g. Weinberger and some of the financiers). Perhaps a project with commercial and defence sensitivities, perhaps to discuss a patent or innovation in the field of medical diagnostics / defence. Pretty dull but important stuff.

When something happened to Madeleine (she may have initially been fatally injured?) perhaps the cover-up began (and I mean a cover-up of the event / meeting / conference as well as Madeleine).

I think that this post fom Cheshire Cat gives me some insight into what may have really happened.

But what I am trying to get my head around is what it could have been that was so secret, and/or so important, and/or so sensitive, about this 'business meeting' that meant that the death of a little girl should require a cover up of, not only the death of the girl, but also of the meeting itself. A cover up which seemingly involves the UK Government no less.

by YNG 28.11.10 9:24

parapono wrote:The D Webster slip of the tongue. I have THE feeling that this is just à mistaken quote, wrongly written down and not seen and corrected before signing. I tend to think she must have said seats instead of six, and that passed unnoticed by all parties. Just my opinion of course.
parapono

Quite possibly parapono , Fiona P. confirms that they were a seat short and it just happened to be Madeleine that didn't get one ;

Fiona Payne's - “Erm, no, well we had a, erm, a sort of discussion about car seats, whether they’d booked the right car seats for the kids, erm, and I think, as it was, I think Madeleine didn’t have a, a booster seat. Erm, but, no, no, it was all fairly straight forward, we arrived and though, got picked up, I don’t remember there being any issues”.

by Guest 28.11.10 10:16

theolivebranch wrote:
Just to throw in, a very senior member of the police force in the UK commented, in a rather well oiled state, that the cadaver scent had been planted. But he didn't say by whom.

"Planted" eh?, that's interesting. Well that can only mean two things then. Either this has been a complete financial scam from the very start and Madeline is still alive. Or the very people who have been preventing this from being properly investigated is desperate to feed the British Police force lies knowing full well it will get passed on, to make everyone think that the Portuguese planted it. Based on what I have seen so far, I feel it is the latter.

Hi Olive btw roses

it's good to see you here and thanks for the info.

by Mike 28.11.10 10:47

Stella wrote:
theolivebranch wrote:
Just to throw in, a very senior member of the police force in the UK commented, in a rather well oiled state, that the cadaver scent had been planted. But he didn't say by whom.

"Planted" eh?, that's interesting. Well that can only mean two things then. Either this has been a complete financial scam from the very start and Madeline is still alive. Or the very people who have been preventing this from being properly investigated is desperate to feed the British Police force lies knowing full well it will get passed on, to make everyone think that the Portuguese planted it. Based on what I have seen so far, I feel it is the latter.

Hi Olive btw [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] it's good to see you here and thanks for the info.

Stella, you said "Either this has been a complete financial scam from the very start and Madeline is still alive"

If this has been a scam from the start why would they plant cadaver scent? And, more importantly, who would plant it because if it is a scam then it suggests the McCann's planted it as part of their scam.

Very interesting thread btw. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 28.11.10 10:58

chris wrote:
Stella, you said "Either this has been a complete financial scam from the very start and Madeline is still alive"

If this has been a scam from the start why would they plant cadaver scent? And, more importantly, who would plant it because if it is a scam then it suggests the McCann's planted it as part of their scam.

Very interesting thread btw. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Now that is the ultimate 64M dollar question, isn't it Chris? Hi btw.

An interesting theory, but I feel it is nothing more than a smokescreen fed to the UK police to throw them off the scent. Maybe desperate times call for desperate measures.

by Shibboleth 28.11.10 12:16

I don't buy it. If the McCanns planted the cadaverine, then why try to explain it away with stories about Sea Bass and six corpses at work? Gerry knows what the dogs found, and as usual, he has to have an answer for everything.

by Guest 28.11.10 13:47

I don't buy it either. The fiddling around with the creche sheets, tells us something happened on or before the 29th.

Is Olive's comment re the Police a sign of some sort of internal muddying of the waters?

by Cheshire Cat 28.11.10 13:51

I understand that Cat Nannies credibility as a witness has been questioned. What about the other creche worker statements that suggest Madeleine or a child called Madeleine was present in the creche, do any of these look suspicious or are there reliable statements that suggest there was a child called Madeleine (or a varient of this name) present in the creche for the times where Maddies name appears in the register?

I know the answer may be in the thread but its a heck of a thread now! At the moment I do not see evidence for a substitute Maddie, I only see suspect entries in the creche records. But I am open minded about all this.

Many thanks!

by Guest 28.11.10 13:55

Not every child in the resort would have been on those lists though and this is the problem.

Privately rented out apartments did not have to list each and everyone of it's occupants.

Not to mention the owner occupied ones as well to consider.

by Judge Mental 28.11.10 15:01

Stella wrote:Not every child in the resort would have been on those lists though and this is the problem.

Privately rented out apartments did not have to list each and everyone of it's occupants.

Not to mention the owner occupied ones as well to consider.

This is correct of course, for not everybody takes their children on holiday to leave them in creches all day and every day either. Most parents use their holidays to spend quality time with their children. Whenever one sent the wife and children off on a holiday, she never left their side.

Indeed, whenever one had enough time to join the family on a holiday, one would always ensure that the children were kept close by when the wife wanted to enjoy some me-time. If nothing else, one can say that one taught all of the children, from their being three years old, that silence was golden, and that golf could be enjoyed as a spectator sport for some three or four hours at a time. Peculiarly, none of them have grown up to be fans of golf.

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by gazza5678 28.11.10 15:05

YNG wrote:
parapono wrote:The D Webster slip of the tongue. I have THE feeling that this is just à mistaken quote, wrongly written down and not seen and corrected before signing. I tend to think she must have said seats instead of six, and that passed unnoticed by all parties. Just my opinion of course.
parapono

Quite possibly parapono , Fiona P. confirms that they were a seat short and it just happened to be Madeleine that didn't get one ;

Fiona Payne's - “Erm, no, well we had a, erm, a sort of discussion about car seats, whether they’d booked the right car seats for the kids, erm, and I think, as it was, I think Madeleine didn’t have a, a booster seat. Erm, but, no, no, it was all fairly straight forward, we arrived and though, got picked up, I don’t remember there being any issues”.

To possibly state the obvious there were 5 children travelling from Leicestershire (3 McCanns and 2 Paynes) hence 4 would be a seat short but six is one too many.

by Daoud 28.11.10 15:11

Stella wrote:
chris wrote:
Stella, you said "Either this has been a complete financial scam from the very start and Madeline is still alive"

If this has been a scam from the start why would they plant cadaver scent? And, more importantly, who would plant it because if it is a scam then it suggests the McCann's planted it as part of their scam.

Very interesting thread btw. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Now that is the ultimate 64M dollar question, isn't it Chris? Hi btw.

An interesting theory, but I feel it is nothing more than a smokescreen fed to the UK police to throw them off the scent. Maybe desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm not sure what you mean by a smokescreen fed to the UK police, but as for answering the question of why would they plant cadaver scent? - well, there are plausible (in my opinion [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] ) explanations for this, but they don't depend on the death of Madeleine; and if Madeleine isn't dead, then the extremely curious behaviour of her parents is much more easily explained...

by Cheshire Cat 28.11.10 16:53

Cheshire Cat wrote:I understand that Cat Nannies credibility as a witness has been questioned. What about the other creche worker statements that suggest Madeleine or a child called Madeleine was present in the creche, do any of these look suspicious or are there reliable statements that suggest there was a child called Madeleine (or a varient of this name) present in the creche for the times where Maddies name appears in the register?

I know the answer may be in the thread but its a heck of a thread now! At the moment I do not see evidence for a substitute Maddie, I only see suspect entries in the creche records. But I am open minded about all this.

Many thanks!

Sorry, I think my question was a bit confusing.

What I am checking is this: Of the Creche staff who claim to have looked after Madeleine McCann, are there any witness statements that appear truthful and could be considered reliable ? When was the last time creche worker claimed to care for Maddie and is this a credible claim?

by YNG 28.11.10 17:13

gazza5678 wrote:
YNG wrote:
parapono wrote:The D Webster slip of the tongue. I have THE feeling that this is just à mistaken quote, wrongly written down and not seen and corrected before signing. I tend to think she must have said seats instead of six, and that passed unnoticed by all parties. Just my opinion of course.
parapono

Quite possibly parapono , Fiona P. confirms that they were a seat short and it just happened to be Madeleine that didn't get one ;

Fiona Payne's - “Erm, no, well we had a, erm, a sort of discussion about car seats, whether they’d booked the right car seats for the kids, erm, and I think, as it was, I think Madeleine didn’t have a, a booster seat. Erm, but, no, no, it was all fairly straight forward, we arrived and though, got picked up, I don’t remember there being any issues”.

To possibly state the obvious there were 5 children travelling from Leicestershire (3 McCanns and 2 Paynes) hence 4 would be a seat short but six is one too many.

Indeed six would have been too many , but do we know how many people including children other the the named Tapas group travelled on that bus. If it was another family associated with the group with one child at least that required a car seat, who have not been named, then this could account for the ' slip ' , and we are discussing the possibility of a substitute child being used and it seems DW was talking about the journey to PDL , or was that another mistake ?
From DW's statement -

" I don’t know if it was one seat or two seats, so there was a bit of time spent at the airport trying to find other seats err and I don’t think we did manage to get all six in the end so we just sort of risked it and were driven to Praia Da Luz "
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by gazza5678 28.11.10 18:02

From Diane Webster's statement from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

When we arrived at , in Portugal I think the other thing that Gerry had booked, I don’t know whether he did it by phone or online, was a, a mini bus to take us to the resort where we were staying and there was a bit of a kafuffle because we had, he’d asked for several child seats for the bus because obviously there were five children in the group and I think there was only, I don’t know if it was one seat or two seats, so there was a bit of time spent at the airport trying to find other seats and I don’t think we did manage to get all six in the end so we just sort of risked it and were driven to Praia Da Luz.”

Implying that it was a minibus specially booked by Gerry and hence there would be no other passengers?

From Fiona Payne's statement [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

“Tell me about when you get to the resort and, the booking-in procedure, where you eventually, where your apartment was, what number it was, tell me all about the, our intro?”

Reply
“Yeah, we arrived, at the sort of main reception area, got everybody out, I think the men went in to do the actual booking-in, I remember just standing out with Kate outside with all the baggage and the children, so it’s either both Dave and Gerry or just Dave went in and, and booked us all in. then we had to wait for the sort of MARK WARNER bus to pick up and take us to the apartments, there was a bit of a wait there, about fifteen minutes or so and then, yeah, a chap came with a minibus and we all sort of piled in with all the luggage and he took us to the apartments.

Which indicates that it was definitely a Mark Warner minibus which took them to their appartments once they had arrived at reception. In contrast with the one from the airport? If they had arrived on a Mark Warner minibus from the airport would they not have left their luggage on board until they reached their appartments?

YNG I have now read your post more carefully and I do understand what you are saying. No other passengers on the mini-bus from the airport ...except possibly the additional family with another child accounting for 6 children altogether. DW making a slip indicating that there were 6 children giving the game away!

by **kikoraton** 28.11.10 18:13

"...all six" sounds more plausible, and more like English usage, than ".....all seats". Try saying the phrase for yourself (but quietly)!! Since the occupants of G4N had arrived on the Thursday previous, and the Naylors didn't need transfers, one could visualise a scene in which a small occupant of G4N, and her parents, were awaiting the arrival of the McCann/Payne party at Faro airport. I'm not saying it happened, but Dianne's statement opens up the possibility.
CheshireCat: HiDeHo has done a lot of work on your query about the reliability of the other nannies. I'm not sure if she brought it over here, or left it in another place. Her conclusion, as far as I recall, was that they were all flawed memories and Cat Nanny was the only one who gave a clear account, that MM was there until 5.30. I sometimes toy with the idea that Cat Nanny went to Rothley in October, not to gloat over how they had got away with it, or to accept any reward, but rather out of curiosity, to find out whether she might have been cruelly deceived by the placing of a substitute girl in her class.

Just read yours gazza - dead right.