Re: How Maddie's creche attendance was "arranged"

by Judge Mental 22.11.10 23:40

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] and welcome to SevenoaksSally.

''His kids are all boys, and older than the other children and I can't see their names on the creche registers.''

Perhaps you could PM any names and ages to a trusted member, if you think they may be helpful.

by Autumn 23.11.10 12:03

SevenoaksSally welcome aboard

His mind is most likely made up re the McCanns but some gentle probing may reveal some useful info. Perhaps you could ask if he saw Gerry and Kate with Madeleine prior to May 3rd?

by Guest 23.11.10 12:59

SevenoaksSally wrote:
Stella wrote:OK, I have just started the ground research into the booking of the creche.

List 1, are those individuals who specified on there initial reservation that they required creche facilities.
List 2, are those individuals who had children, but did not specify in advance they would be needing creche facilites.

The names that appear in red, are those individuals who did not reserve the creche, but still managed to get booked into the Lobster group, presumably after they had arrived at the resort.

LIST 1

Berry 1 x mini ending on the 4th ?
Handy 1 x toddler 2
Heselton 1 x toddler 2
Patel 1 x mini
Totman 1 x toddler 2 plus 1 x mini
Reap 1 x mini
Taylor 1 x mini
O’Donnell 1 x mini plus 1 x baby club
Burlton 1 x toddler
Janczur 1 x toddler 2 plus 1 x baby club
Edmonds 3 x juniors
Foster 1 x mini

Hi all

New poster here, but have been around since day1 at 3 A's etc. Just realised that my brother's friend is on this list. Always knew that 'they were there' and that the single dad was 'very surprised' he was never interviewed by the police. My brother was VERY upset by my scepticism about the events, saying that his friend had witnessed the McCanns being 'traumatised' by the events of the evening. My bro maintained this was because of the 'abduction', I just felt it was coz of the enormity of the event.

Anyway, if I was to be able to contact this 'witness' (he might even come to a family xmas party), what should I tactfully ask him (so that his defences don't go up)? I think I'll ask about holiday photos (any of Maddie)...but should I tell him what I want them for? His kids are all boys, and older than the other children and I can't see their names on the creche registers.

Hi Sevenoaks Sally

As soon as you described your brothers friend, instantly one name came to mind. If I am correct, in my eyes he should have been a person of interest for various reasons. If he has still not been spoken to, I can only think he is on the bigger picture protection list and I would think he will not divulge anything to you. But perhaps try to catch him off guard and say something like, 'did you have to cut short your holiday and leave any earlier'? and see what he says !!! If it's him and he says no, he is lying. If he says yes, I would very interested in his reasons as to why. thinking

Your brothers friend could not have witnessed the McCann's being traumatised, if it's the person I think it is, as he left before the alarm was raised. I will send you a PM now with his surname.

by **kikoraton** 23.11.10 14:14

Blimey, Stella, you've been thinking hard while you were laid low for a few days!!! I've no idea who you mean!!
By the way, on another forum I tried to persuade a third person (in Portugal) to facilitate a meeting with the PJ with the sole intention of finding out who owns G4N, and who were the occupants in April/May 2007. But I was told there was no way they (the PJ) would assist. They would claim it was under judicial secrecy. I'd fly to Portimao or Lisbon tomorrow, but I'm not convinced I'd get past the person on the door.

by Guest 23.11.10 14:28

Your only chance of speaking with someone, is to make direct contact with Goncalo. Perhaps Tony could help you with that?

by Guest 23.11.10 15:46

Stella wrote:
SevenoaksSally wrote:
Stella wrote:OK, I have just started the ground research into the booking of the creche.

List 1, are those individuals who specified on there initial reservation that they required creche facilities.
List 2, are those individuals who had children, but did not specify in advance they would be needing creche facilites.

The names that appear in red, are those individuals who did not reserve the creche, but still managed to get booked into the Lobster group, presumably after they had arrived at the resort.

LIST 1

Berry 1 x mini ending on the 4th ?
Handy 1 x toddler 2
Heselton 1 x toddler 2
Patel 1 x mini
Totman 1 x toddler 2 plus 1 x mini
Reap 1 x mini
Taylor 1 x mini
O’Donnell 1 x mini plus 1 x baby club
Burlton 1 x toddler
Janczur 1 x toddler 2 plus 1 x baby club
Edmonds 3 x juniors
Foster 1 x mini

Hi all

New poster here, but have been around since day1 at 3 A's etc. Just realised that my brother's friend is on this list. Always knew that 'they were there' and that the single dad was 'very surprised' he was never interviewed by the police. My brother was VERY upset by my scepticism about the events, saying that his friend had witnessed the McCanns being 'traumatised' by the events of the evening. My bro maintained this was because of the 'abduction', I just felt it was coz of the enormity of the event.

Anyway, if I was to be able to contact this 'witness' (he might even come to a family xmas party), what should I tactfully ask him (so that his defences don't go up)? I think I'll ask about holiday photos (any of Maddie)...but should I tell him what I want them for? His kids are all boys, and older than the other children and I can't see their names on the creche registers.

Hi Sevenoaks Sally

As soon as you described your brothers friend, instantly one name came to mind. If I am correct, in my eyes he should have been a person of interest for various reasons. If he has still not been spoken to, I can only think he is on the bigger picture protection list and I would think he will not divulge anything to you. But perhaps try to catch him off guard and say something like, 'did you have to cut short your holiday and leave any earlier'? and see what he says !!! If it's him and he says no, he is lying. If he says yes, I would very interested in his reasons as to why.

Your brothers friend could not have witnessed the McCann's being traumatised, if it's the person I think it is, as he left before the alarm was raised. I will send you a PM now with his surname.

I would like to correct my last comment. It's been a long time since I read that particular statement.

He did not leave before the alarm was raised, but it looks like he made arrangements to leave 1 day early, before the alarm was raised. thinking

by soulthief 23.11.10 16:17

I know i am sounding dumb but not long being accepted as a poster here I am lost, what's the relevence here?

by **kikoraton** 23.11.10 16:57

My admiration for Stella knows no bounds, but I am one who prefers to keep the net as small as possible. I'm looking no further than apartments BP01 and G4N. That is to say, in the search for people involved. I'll grant that some others might have something interesting to say about the behaviour of the Tapas Group, if their memories were jogged.
What we need - and the McCanns were only too aware of it, hence their call for holiday photos to be sent to their mate Gamble - are photos of the girl whom Gerry signed into the creche using his own initials. He, of course, was claiming it was his daughter Madeleine. I think it was a substitute Madeleine, or Madalene. (Of whom, by the way, we have already seen a photo on this thread, but I am not going to reproduce it here because it would be unethical and unfair to the innocent kids who appeared in the photo. Suffice to say, that the newsletter with the photo in it has now been whizzed from the internet, but at least one of our dedicated friends had saved it before it went).

by **kikoraton** 24.11.10 8:23

"Why would Naylors child have to be signed in as well as substitute Maddie?"
That situation would arise if the substitute were a friend of EN. Imagine the two families had arranged to be at the OC at the same time. It's quite possible that one of the girls might be more timid than the other. They weren't always signed in at the same time, but more often than not, they were.
The question is: why didn't RN sign his own child in? There's no indication he went anywhere near the kids' club. The signing in of EN was done in some cases by GM and in others (fewer) by Áinne Naylor. The signing out was done by the latter. Or by nobody.
I think the answer must lie in the fact that RN refused to go and be seen near the creche. Why? Because he was involved in something he was ashamed of, or deeply worried about? Or because the substitute's father accompanied her to the creche? He couldn't sign her in - that had to be done in Gerry's writing, But two dads for two girls is enough. If RN had been hanging around as well, the maths wouldn't have stacked up.

by Guest 24.11.10 9:35

kikoraton wrote:
The question is: why didn't RN sign his own child in?

What springs to mind is:
1. He knew exactly what was going on and didn't want anything to do with it.
2. Perhaps he never intended for his daugter to attend creche at all that week and may know nothing about it.

If that is the case then how did Gerry get a copy of his signature in the first place? How did Gerry know that he would not change his mind and book EN in? To me the answer is obvious. winkwink

by Irish Eyes 24.11.10 9:37

Please spell it out. It's not obvious to me. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 24.11.10 10:29

Irish Eyes, I'm afraid we are not in a position to come out with anything unless we can back it up right now. We can ask questions and we can discuss them, but that's all we can do for now. Sorry. roses

by **kikoraton** 24.11.10 12:37

I think it's safe to say, that the poster means that there was collusion going on.
But, whilst I'm sure that's true, I think EN herself did attend the creche. I'm not looking for a substitute for her. One's enough, and I'm only looking for a sub for Madeleine McCann.

by **kikoraton** 24.11.10 14:49

How did the McCs describe Madeleine immediately after the event?
Height?
Colour of hair?
Complexion?Anything else?

by Guest 24.11.10 15:23

They were adamant that she was never called "Maddie".

by Guest 24.11.10 15:31

Stella wrote:They were adamant that she was never called "Maddie".

Yes, they were Stella, but this on mccannfiles seems to prove differently, with thanks to Nigel for his brilliant site.

Madeleine or Maddie?

This on GM' friends reunited page

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Ocean Club nannies
'all the child-care workers, having contact with Madeleine, state that Madeleine introduced herself to them by her shortened name "Maddie".'

Excerpt summary of police interviews carried out from 05 May 2007 to 07 May 2007

Whole list of statements here from friends and relatives that called her Maddie

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by Guest 24.11.10 15:46

Thanks for the links candyfloss.

So what was that all about I wonder? Do you think maybe the child they used felt strongly about not being called Maddie and perhaps by releasing what they did, it kind of confirmed this in the eyes of the staff ? I don't get it. thinking

by Autumn 24.11.10 15:51

Full name: Madeleine Beth McCann
Date of birth: 12/05/2003

Place of birth: Leicester, United Kingdom

Height: 90 cm

Eyes: Left eye: blue and green; right eye: green with a brown spot on the iris

Hair: Straight blond hair

She has a small brown spot on her left leg

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by Guest 24.11.10 15:52

According to Bridget O’Donnell, there were 10 girls to 2 boys in a group. Yet when I looked at Madeleine’s group, I recorded 5 girls and 2 boys. Does this mean the other group had 5 more girls in it? Did JW and BoD get a good look at Madeleine when playing with their daughter? And What is this “drop-off” point that BoD is referring to below?

Jeremy explained that he used the crèche facility provided by the resort. This was a child care facility which allowed parents to leave their children, aged between 3 – 5 yrs old, with trained staff at various times of the day. He recalled walking to the crèche with Gerry who had left Madeleine with the staff. This was about 1230 hrs on Tues 1 May.
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Our children made friends in the kiddie club and at the drop-off, we would joke about the fact that there were 10 blonde three-year-old girls in the group. They were bound to boss around the two boys. The children went sailing and swimming, played tennis and learned a dance routine for the end-of-week show. Each morning, our daughter ran ahead of us to get to the kiddie club. She was having a wonderful time. Jes signed up for tennis lessons. I read a book. He made friends. I read another book. The Mark Warner nannies brought the children to the Tapas restaurant to have tea at the end of each day. It was a friendly gathering. The parents would stand and chat by the pool. We talked about the children, about what we did at home. We were hopeful about a change in the weather. We eyed our children as they played. We didn't see anyone watching.
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We walked towards the kiddie club. No one else was there. We felt awful, such terrible parents for even considering the idea. Then we saw, waiting inside, some of the Mark Warner nannies. They had been up most of the night but had still turned up to work that day. They were intelligent, thoughtful young women and we liked and trusted them. The dance show was cancelled, but they wanted to put on a normal day for the children. Our daughter ran inside and started painting. Then, behind us, another set of parents arrived looking equally washed out. Then another, and another. We decided, in the end, to leave them for two hours. We put their bags on the pegs and saw the one labelled "Madeleine". Heads bent, we walked away, into the guilty glare of the morning sun.
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by Guest 24.11.10 16:00

If all children were initially signed into the "drop-off" section, could they have been all kept together in the same group, ie the 10 girls and 2 boys, just as BoD described? Someone else I think mentions not knowing until afterwards that his child and Madeleine were in the same group, Carpenter I think.

A group of 10 children is a lot easier for any child to go unoticed in.

by **kikoraton** 24.11.10 19:17

90 cm is very small for a girl of almost four.
Madeleine McCann didn't have especially straight blond hair.
But I know of a girl of the right age with those characteristics who may have stood in for Maddie McCann. And her name sounds like Madeleine.

by Autumn 24.11.10 21:41

She certainly didn't have straight blonde hair on the tennin photo. I would agree that 90 cms is very small for a girl approaching her fourth birthday - I work in a reception class with children of that age and none of them are that small.

by soulthief 24.11.10 22:16

Autumn wrote:
She certainly didn't have straight blonde hair on the tennin photo. I would agree that 90 cms is very small for a girl approaching her fourth birthday - I work in a reception class with children of that age and none of them are that small.

Her smallness makes it all the more heart breakingly tragic, I recall a time when I used to lay awake thinking about her and hoping she would be found, then came the forensics and I was gutted, I always thought the parents were callous it was only the forensics, the sol report and then the pictures of them laughing, particularly the church ones that changed my mind. I used to scour Google for news several times a day, now I'm down to about once a day. Daily reading still of the usual morais, mccannfiles and of course nhs abuse of power. I think being bombarded with her image everyday for the 80 odd days she was front page news made it so her face was as familiar to me an the faces of my own children, I truly hate the McCanns for the callous disregard of Madeleine and it guts me to think her last days on Earth were spent sometimes alone in a strange apartment weeping for her parents night after night. Considering they had to try so hard to have her, one would imagine she would have been like a miracle and the most precious thing on the planet. Even had their have really been a abduction in my mind they were scum who paved the way for whatever happened, they are culpable whatever way you look at it.

by gazza5678 24.11.10 22:37

The below image shows that Madeleine McCann was 40inchs which is over 1m. The shorter height and younger photograph were possibly released to confuse the search.

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by Guest 24.11.10 22:42

gazza5678 and welcome

by gazza5678 24.11.10 22:46

I believe this link shows the picture released to 'aid' the search. Much younger that her actual age.

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by littlepixie 24.11.10 22:58

Most definitely a much younger child than the one at the door of the playhouse and the one collecting the tennis balls.

Eta. And the one in the football top pic.

Welcome gazza btw!

by Autumn 25.11.10 3:09

Some info about owners of holiday apartments

Daily Mail 5th May 2007

Paul Moyes, 47, from Cheshire, and his wife Susan own a holiday apartment in the same block as the McCanns. He said: "There was a knock on the door at about 11.30 from a hotel guest telling us a girl was missing and asking us to help in the search.
"There were uniformed police, plain clothes and even off-duty local officers. The search went on all night, people were using torches.
"We searched the beach and the hotel grounds with scores of people. Quite a few of us own holiday homes here so it's a close-knit community and something like this is terribly shocking." Michael Hannar, from Pontefract, Yorkshire, owns a ground floor apartment close to the McCanns.
He said: "I don't believe a three-year-old child would have been strong enough to open the window or shutter.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Irish Eyes 25.11.10 7:28

And while all the locals were out searching in the dark with their torches the McCanns were praying like arabs on their bed and Kate admitted to Jane Hill that they never physically searched for their own daughter because, according to Madeleine's mother, it was too dark.

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by Guest 25.11.10 8:39

Autumn wrote:Some info about owners of holiday apartments

Daily Mail 5th May 2007

Paul Moyes, 47, from Cheshire, and his wife Susan own a holiday apartment in the same block as the McCanns. He said: "There was a knock on the door at about 11.30 from a hotel guest telling us a girl was missing and asking us to help in the search.
"There were uniformed police, plain clothes and even off-duty local officers. The search went on all night, people were using torches.
"We searched the beach and the hotel grounds with scores of people. Quite a few of us own holiday homes here so it's a close-knit community and something like this is terribly shocking." Michael Hannar, from Pontefract, Yorkshire, owns a ground floor apartment close to the McCanns.
He said: "I don't believe a three-year-old child would have been strong enough to open the window or shutter.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks Autumn

Looking at the lists I was able to find Paul Moyes apartment, he was in G5K. The Paynes were in G5H, so he was nearer to them I think, then the McCann's, I will have to check the apartment layouts a bit closer.
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As for the other name Michael Hannar, that name is not on the lists, which is very strange indeed. It says he owns a ground floor apartment, so he should have been on the list like the one above as a "donos" booking. (i.e., the owner is using their own apartment)

According to this apartment layout picture, G5K was above Mrs Fenn's apartment.
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