When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Tony Bennett wrote:6. Girl looks to have bigger, sturdier body frame than Madeleine

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I don't think Madeleine looks like she's got a bigger, sturdier body frame in the Tennis Balls photo. She looks about the same as she does in the Playground Photo. Plus, the head sizes of the Tennis Balls Photo and the head size of the Last Photo look about the same.

If anything, Madeleine's body size looks smaller in the Last Photo than it does in the others, even though the head size still looks the same. 

I also think that in the Tennis Balls pic she's just hunched over because she's using her chin to keep the balls in place. 

The Last Photo shows Madeleine's body pointing towards the right and her face pointing to the left so I don't think the position of Madeleine's body in the Tennis Balls pic looks out of place.

It's the suntan of the Tennis Balls photo that doesn't fit with the pale Madeleine in the Last Photo that was allegedly taken two days after the Tennis Balls photo. How could she have lost that suntan within two days?

Maybe the Tennis Balls photo was the Last Photo?

In my opinion, the tennis court does look wet in the area around the white lines. I'm not sure if that helps in dating the image, because it isn't even clear that this image belongs to this holiday.
Most people tan over a holiday, here we have premature fading. It's not possible really is it.

The angle the image was taken from is quite high, suggesting a tall adult took this image. The fact that the body and background share this angle of view proves that the two are indeed one. 
Is the face part of the original image? 
Without seeing a higher resolution version, it is difficult to say, but the lighting direction, the shadows under the chin and under the feet are the same. That doesn't mean however that shadows can't be added, or overall colour balance adjusted for one to match the other.

It is an odd looking photograph, with an awkward pose.
The hunched position makes the head sit further forward than one might expect.

I have seen a thread which suggests this could be an old photo of KM rather than MBM,  that would date the image to 1971-1972. It can't be, as this is a shot from a digital camera, not a film camera. It's not a scan either because anti-aliasing artifacts where the hat meets the court tells us so.

One observation about the shadows, suggests the sun, although diffused, is almost directly overhead. The shortness of the shadows under her feet for example are short and contained. Perhaps this helps with a time it was taken?

CMOMM member 'parapono', who is currently taking a short holiday in Praia da Luz, has just sent up these two pictures of the cleaning of the tennis courts:


PHOTO 1


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PHOTO 2


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Could be wet, or could be just stained..
 
I don’t think we ever heard an opinion from PeterMac on the actual courts after his visit.
 
It would also be helpful to know what the OC court cleaning regime was. Assuming the court is the hard 'painted or coloured tarmac' type, (which it looks like to me), I suspect it would just be a bit of brushing &/or hosing.

Did we ever hear from a trustworthy source as to whether the little ones used soft foam balls or proper tennis balls?
 
The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts and also JRP’s ‘suggesting a tall adult took this image’, as it was almost certainly taken from the elevated play area above the courts, not that either help much.
 
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MM’s ‘head being in an unnatural position’ I think can be explained, as she is using her chin to help hold onto the balls.

There used to be a high definition copy of the photo at one time, but I can’t find it at the moment.

TB:
 
‘CMOMM member 'parapono', who is currently taking a short holiday in Praia da Luz, has just sent up these two pictures of the cleaning of the tennis courts’
 
Face masks suggests this is not ‘routine’ cleaning, but a chemical clean to get rid of algae etc that has accumulated over the winter. The hoses in the background I would suggest are the usual method, but maybe she could ask them.
  
At the same time could she make enquiries about the tennis balls/foam balls used and also the brand name, as that could give a clue as to whether the photo should be facing left or right?

Doug D wrote:The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts...

Agreed, BUT always assuming that the fence was there in 2007

worriedmum wrote:quote ''How come she was all raw and red and sunburnt and scratched and bruised etc. by Tuesday (when Kate says the Tennis Ball Photo was taken), yet is, by comparison, so pale she looks almost white in the so-called Last Photo, allegedly taken at 2.29pm pm on the Thursday, two days later??   '' unquote

Tony I would also draw your attention to the fact that the tennis photo was reproduced 'flipped',
 (that is, with Madeleine facing the opposite way) in IIRC, Dutch newspapers. This would mean that the discoloured arm in the tennis photo would be the same arm visible on the 'last' photo....which does not look discoloured to me...

Ah! Very helpful observation, thank you @ worriedmum

TB:
 
‘Agreed, BUT always assuming that the fence was there in 2007’
 
Pretty sure it was. This photo supposedly from April 2005:
 
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Jeff J MitchellCollection: Getty Images News 2008 Getty Images PRAIA DA LUZ, PORTUGAL - APRIL 05: The fenced off tennis courts in the Ocean Club ...

I'm just wondering why ,  if the tennis pic photo has been photoshopped ,  why any credence should be given to the tennis court in the background. It could be anywhere, anytime : Why are we so sure that the tennis court background wasn't an 'add on ' to complement the other bit of fakery? In my opinion we can't .

Tony Bennett wrote:

Doug D wrote:The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts...

Agreed, BUT always assuming that the fence was there in 2007

Not sure of the year this was taken but I saved it in July 2011

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Doug D wrote:Could be wet, or could be just stained..
 
I don’t think we ever heard an opinion from PeterMac on the actual courts after his visit.
 
It would also be helpful to know what the OC court cleaning regime was. Assuming the court is the hard 'painted or coloured tarmac' type, (which it looks like to me), I suspect it would just be a bit of brushing &/or hosing.

Did we ever hear from a trustworthy source as to whether the little ones used soft foam balls or proper tennis balls?
 
The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts and also JRP’s ‘suggesting a tall adult took this image’, as it was almost certainly taken from the elevated play area above the courts, not that either help much.
 
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MM’s ‘head being in an unnatural position’ I think can be explained, as she is using her chin to help hold onto the balls.

There used to be a high definition copy of the photo at one time, but I can’t find it at the moment.

I didn't realise that there was a raised area around the court from where a downward shot could be taken. So thank you for pointing that out.
That said, the angle of the figure and the background match, so that part of this image is genuine.

According to the Lobster Club activities schedule, the mini tennis session was entered for Monday 30th April, not Tuesday 1st or thereafter..

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Understandably the schedule would be adjusted according to weather conditions on any one day.  Whatever, Mark Warner staff display a somewhat lackadaisical approach to record keeping.  Can't say I'm surprised, not exactly a 5* luxury destination.

I'm with Nina on this one, I can see the need for regular maintenance of tennis courts used for championship play but I doubt very much if the Ocean Club PdL are quite so diligent.  The booking schedule only shows on cleaning session, as identified by HiDeHo, at lunch time allowing only two hours to dry (IF it was washed) before the next booked session.  That's pushing it a bit at that time of year - depending of course on the composition of the court surface.

This issue seems to me to be yet another example of people, days and dates being juggled about in order to confuse and reinforce the abduction 10:00 pm Thursday 3rd May fabrication.

Nina wrote:

Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time, so what's that all about?

Probably it means that any mini-tennis session took place in a grassy area (like the 'parachute' session the day before)...

...which, in essence, means that all claims made about the mini-tennis session and the Tennis Balls Photo are...

...a complete load of rubbish...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time,so what's that all about?

Throwing foam rubber simulated tennis balls around I shouldn't wonder - hence mini-tennis/grass time.  Providing rain didn't stop play of course!

Verdi wrote:According to the Lobster Club activities schedule, the mini tennis session was entered for Monday 30th April, not Tuesday 1st or thereafter..

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Understandably the schedule would be adjusted according to weather conditions on any one day.  Whatever, Mark Warner staff display a somewhat lackadaisical approach to record keeping.  Can't say I'm surprised, not exactly a 5* luxury destination.

I'm with Nina on this one, I can see the need for regular maintenance of tennis courts used for championship play but I doubt very much if the Ocean Club PdL are quite so diligent.  The booking schedule only shows on cleaning session, as identified by HiDeHo, at lunch time allowing only two hours to dry (IF it was washed) before the next booked session.  That's pushing it a bit at that time of year - depending of course on the composition of the court surface.

This issue seems to me to be yet another example of people, days and dates being juggled about in order to confuse and reinforce the abduction 10:00 pm Thursday 3rd May fabrication.

The activity sheet doesnt seem to be too reliable. I would place more credence in the tennis booking forms


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Also Georgina Jackson the tennis coach (note that she doesnt specifically identify Maddie, only that she was among a group)

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She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.


It is definitely important to look at whether it is possible/likely that it is a watermark ( inside the lines) and the resulting conclusions if it is.

That is my point in bringing it to the attention in this thread.

If it is not a possibility then it needs to be taken off the list of discrepancies.

If it is possible then it needs to be considered.

I am NOT out to create a 'conspiracy theory' on this. I don't worry about being wrong. The truth is what is important to me.

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time,so what's that all about?

Throwing foam rubber simulated tennis balls around I shouldn't wonder - hence mini-tennis/grass time.  Providing rain didn't stop play of course!

Might be a good start to ask Gerry and his brother in law when they compiled them onto a CD disc for the Portugal PJ after Alex Woolfall had scrutinised images from the couples camera?
Three wise Monkeys?

Tony Bennett wrote:

Nina wrote:

Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time, so what's that all about?

Probably it means that any mini-tennis session took place in a grassy area (like the 'parachute' session the day before)...

...which, in essence, means that all claims made about the mini-tennis session and the Tennis Balls Photo are...

...a complete load of rubbish...

Mini tennis was allocated to Court 2 and also the police questioned Rachael about which court they played on (she got it wrong).

You may note also that she claims it was Thursday but it was the SHARKS that played on Thursday, so when she says it was the last time she saw Maddie , does she mean Thursday or Tuesday when Madeleine's group played.?

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Rachael Mampilly Oldfield
1578 “I think you’ve already covered this one, when was the last time you saw Madeleine”?
Reply “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
00.41.13 1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.
1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left I think”.
1578 “Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis courts”?
Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts there”.
1578 Okay”.
Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children were”.
1578 “What’s that one there and what is that”?
Reply “Erm that’s the, I think that’s probably, well the outside bit of the, of the crèche overlooked the tennis courts and so maybe that’s that, that’s not quite sort of accurate I don’t think that, that diagram, the crèche was here and there’s an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there”.

The cleaning process (if power washed or machine washed) would be likely to be quite a long job. The majority of usage on the 2 tapas courts seems to be Mark Warner i.e. very few free time slots on the 3 booking sheets available. The courts are owned by the Ocean Club and cleaning maintenance would more than likely be carried out by the OC staff rather than the MW tennis pros (never known a club golf pro to mow the greens!). So, why not clean the courts on a MW change over day?

There are quite a few photos (current and historic) around of MW mini tennis - in every one, short rackets and yellow/red soft balls are being used. On the MW dedicated tennis courses, children from 6 years upwards use the short rackets and soft balls until they have progressed through 2 children's LTA awards/levels. Children from 3-5 years are catered for on Mini LTA Courses (i.e. courses designed and governed by the LTA) - there are no awards at this level, but you are not telling me they would ever be using 'full compression yellow balls', as the MW ad below describes 'normal' tennis balls. Mini LTA Course tennis (courses) and Mini Club tennis (childcare club activity) are for the same age band 3-5 years, and both are run by the MW tennis professionals in each of their resorts. There is no reason to assume that the short racket/soft ball LTA guidelines wouldn't be observed for both. IMO, THIS PHOTO WAS NOT TAKEN DURING A MW MINI CLUB TENNIS ACTIVITY SESSION.

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I agree that MBM looks the same build as she does in the play house/palm tree photos. (I still can't reconcile this MBM and the one in the Donegal Easter Monday egg rolling photo taken 3 weeks earlier). If the tennis photo is OK in terms of not having been photoshopped then it surely can't have been taken in the UK (temperature; and the Xmas 2006 MBM looks younger/smaller), which narrows the time frame. 

Why are we told that it was during a Mini Club activity, when all that needed to be said was: 'Here's a photo of Maddie helping collect balls after one of her dad's tennis games'? There are no other photos of MBM in the Mini Club that week (are there?). Not a single one of MBM and Ella out on the yellow catamaran (you'd want that for your album wouldn't you?) even though Tapas 7 members were on the beach at the time. Again, you're not telling me that parents weren't fully aware of the special sessions such as the sailing, which took place away from the usual club location. No photos of the high tea in the raised, covered area next to the tapas restaurant; no photos of the MBM with her favourite nanny; no photos of the cute sammy snake line arriving for tea; no photos of MBM and her new little friends together; NADA! And, where are all the activity items that MBM should have made during the week - wouldn't you think that these would have been produced for the press instead of the plate MBM made BEFORE she went on holiday for granny Healy. Where's the lobster picture; the handmade postcard (was it sent to granny?); the planet; the spaceship collage; the sand painting moon picture; the salt dough rocket; the alien mobile; etc; etc. 

IMO, the tennis photo was all that could be produced to say: 'Look, Madeleine did go to the Mini Club.' Just like the 'last photo' was produced to show that MBM was around on Thursday 3 May.

Apologies [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if I've gone off topic - I realise that you're trying to tie down the 'when' of the photo. Can we rely on the tennis booking sheet for the court cleaning?

Skyrocket.

All I am trying to establish is whether it is 'water' on the court and if so, when was it possible for water to get on the court before mini tennis.


If it IS water and there was no court cleaning or rain before 10am for the mini tennis then it is reasonable to suggest that Kate is llying about the photo being taken at mini tennis.

My belief is that it was probably to place Madeleine alive on the Tuesday and the Last pic was to place her alive on Thursday and the playground pics to place her alive on Wednesday.

I don't believe in it being planned. Only if something happened to her earlier in the week AFTER these pics had been taken then they were carefully used to establish she was around.

ie Playground pics Saturday? Tennis pic Monday? Last pic Sunday?

Tony Bennett wrote:CMOMM member 'parapono', who is currently taking a short holiday in Praia da Luz, has just sent up these two pictures of the cleaning of the tennis courts:


PHOTO 1


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PHOTO 2


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Cleaning the tennis courts mid-March - isn't that off season?  Refreshing the colour by spray painting in preparation for the 2016 summer season?

Can we be sure this is not Stephen Birch with his state of the art patented all purpose subterranean body detector or ex-DCI Redwood moonlighting?

willowthewisp wrote:

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:  Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time,so what's that all about?

Throwing foam rubber simulated tennis balls around I shouldn't wonder - hence mini-tennis/grass time.  Providing rain didn't stop play of course!

Might be a good start to ask Gerry and his brother in law when they compiled them onto a CD disc for the Portugal PJ after Alex Woolfall had scrutinised images from the couples camera?
Three wise Monkeys?

Timesonline - October 6, 2007

Dominic Kennedy

He met the couple for the first time at their new apartment. "They were behaving exactly as I thought someone in that situation would be," Mr Woolfall said. "They had not slept. They were trying to work out what to do that might help generate images of her. They were desperately keen to publicise her face."
 
The McCanns had photographs of Madeleine on their digital camera, which Mr Woolfall began transferring to a laptop computer. "I said to Kate, 'Let's try to identify pictures where her face is visible'. Downloading the images was a very difficult process for them. It was upsetting.
 
"They were trying to do two things at once: one, emotionally deal with what was actually, really happening to them; two, operate in some sort of logical way to help get her back."
 
Mr Woolfall transmitted the photographs to the Press Association in London, from where they were distributed to the media. The portfolio included the now famous image of Madeleine wearing a hat on a tennis court.
----------

No more need be said.

skyrocket wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - afternoon!


Perhaps someone could email the photo to someone who is qualified/experienced (one of these acrylic court installation/maintenance companys?) to give an opinion on the appearance of the court re: wetness. It's a very hard thing to pin down - the lack of background detail means that the photo could have been taken on one of the other 3 courts, at the Millenium site (or even, theoretically, elsewhere). 


IMHO, the tennis balls in the photo are a strong enough indicator that this is not a mini tennis session - which does suggest we are being misled by more than one of the persons involved that week.


However, we also have to bear Georgina's statement in mind: 


She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.


So, even without the photo we have a witness placing MBM there on Tuesday morning. But, was it MBM or was she misled also?


Court 2, which shows the mini club session (although  'Adult Classic' also shown in the same hour slot), was booked by one/both of the Reaps (parents of missing 3 year old daughter H*****, on all the check-in sheets) from 9-10am, so the cleaning can't have been done then. The records clearly show both courts as being cleaned at 12.30 pm, which would be the most sensible time (warmest for drying; guests having lunch), if done during the week, although seems odd to take both courts out of action at the same time. But, IMO, the records (as appears the norm) seem to have been doctored (no pun intended!). So why would the court be wet at 10am on Tuesday, other than if it had rained? Jez Wilkins, only mentions being rain-delayed on the Wednesday. He played tennis with GM on Tuesday. Did it rain overnight/early morning on Tuesday? I'll have to look at the weather for that week again, more closely.


I don't believe that the photo is of MBM at Mini Club tennis on Tuesday 1 May, 10 -11am. 


I still feel that the storyline/tennis photo could be to specifically back up the attendance at Mini Club but, yes, as you say, it may well be to tie MBM to a specific time/place - Tuesday/Mini Tennis.

Afternoon Skyrocket :)

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As mentioned before re Georgina Jackson I stayed at Tuesday being a time that Maddie was seen but on reflection when I returned to that sytaement I realised it was non specific and likely just an acknoledgement of the group which Maddie was supposed to be in.

Catriona was with them and as opposed to what some think it was probably half an hour of hitting balls (whether full size of sponge) and no real reason that Georgina would have acknowledged or remembered them by name.

-----------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know what the 'cleaning' consisted of and whether someone with the expertise could guess on the watermark.  I don't believe anyone can say 100% if it was water but that brings me to another issue.

I have been holding back for a few years on asking this question regarding the water because I didn't have the weather reports from PdL.  Only from Faro and in the past few days I have the reports which indicate no precipitation on Monday night or Tuesday and have also studied some videos that we taken in Alvor during that week which would have had the same weather...

These are the videos which show Monday and Tuesday along with the Faro reports for those times.

The video weather appears to match that as you can see in the Faro reports.

It is a Windsurfing competition from Monday (registrations) to Saturday (Finals) and according to the schedule the competition starts at around 11am or after.

The second video shows clear before the competition with clouds after. As per the weather report)

Formular windsurfing Grand Prix Portimao Portugal Day 1  APRIL 30th 2007




MONDAY WEATHER FARO

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Formular windsurfing Grand Prix Portimao Portugal Day 2 MAY 1st 2007




TUESDAY MAY 1st WEATHER

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It was only after checking all of the above along with the PdL Weather forecast that I felt confident enough to make this post with the knowledge there was likely no rainfall Monday or Tuesday morning before the mini tennis.

What I find interesting, particularly after 'confirming' as best that I can that there was no rain before Tuesday morning I was curious why the ONLY reference to rain was Kate claiming rain on Tuesday   Is it possible that if she released this photo SPECIFICALLY to place Maddie alive on Tuesday but maybe the photo was taken after a court cleaning on eg Monday and remembering the court was wet when she took the photo preempted the explanation of it being wet by saying it rained on Tuesday....

That may be a little too far contrived, for me anyway..but I mention anyway :)

canada12 wrote:The reason why the tennis balls photo looks all wrong is because it IS all wrong.
I'm not an expert photoshopper but I did a quick edit job and positioned the child's head where it looks more natural.You can see if you remove the "hunch" in the back, you have a child standing in a much more realistic and natural position than in the photo that was published. If you temporarily accept that the tennis balls photo is a composite the question then becomes why present such an awkward photo to the world?
1. A bad and rushed photoshopping job?
2. The child standing upright looks much older and taller than the Madeleine presented to the world?
3. Hunched makes the child look smaller and shorter?
Answers on a postcard....
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Here's the original so you can compare:
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(Sorry I don't mean to disrupt this thread which is about when the photo was taken, not what it shows.. mods please move this and my other posting above to a more appropriate area if you feel it's off-topic - thanks)

IMO The reason she is hunched is because she's gripping the top ball with her chin so she doesn't drop them.

I have found something which suggests that children used different rackets and balls;

Tipsy tennis is highly entertaining and exactly as it sounds. Taking place in the evening, it involves playing tennis after a few drinks using children’s rackets and balls.
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Some good pics showing small children using yellow and red balls. All with trainers on also. Sandals are a trip hazard and unlikely to be allowed. 

HiDeHo wrote:

Tony Bennett wrote:

Nina wrote:

Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time, so what's that all about?

Probably it means that any mini-tennis session took place in a grassy area (like the 'parachute' session the day before)...

...which, in essence, means that all claims made about the mini-tennis session and the Tennis Balls Photo are...

...a complete load of rubbish...

Mini tennis was allocated to Court 2 and also the police questioned Rachael about which court they played on (she got it wrong).

You may note also that she claims it was Thursday but it was the SHARKS that played on Thursday, so when she says it was the last time she saw Maddie , does she mean Thursday or Tuesday when Madeleine's group played.?

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Rachael Mampilly Oldfield
1578 “I think you’ve already covered this one, when was the last time you saw Madeleine”?
Reply “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
00.41.13 1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.
1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left I think”.
1578 “Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis courts”?
Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts there”.
1578 Okay”.
Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children were”.
1578 “What’s that one there and what is that”?
Reply “Erm that’s the, I think that’s probably, well the outside bit of the, of the crèche overlooked the tennis courts and so maybe that’s that, that’s not quite sort of accurate I don’t think that, that diagram, the crèche was here and there’s an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there”.

Therefore how thorough or relaxed were these sessions organised and completed.  Were kids names just added to a list and if they pitched up or not, nobody was that fussed because accurate registers were not kept.  So if little 'Tommy' says he was there, it's just taken on face value little 'Tommy' was there... Until of course you ask little 'Tommy's' mum all about it and she has to guess the answers because really little Tommy was elsewhere.