Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

by **HiDeHo** 24.03.16 16:54

skyrocket wrote:So, had Gerry spoken to Bridget or not??!!

Thats a tough call to decide which one of them to believe smilie

by Guest 24.03.16 17:05

Tony Bennett wrote:CMOMM member 'parapono', who is currently taking a short holiday in Praia da Luz, has just sent up these two pictures of the cleaning of the tennis courts:

PHOTO 1

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PHOTO 2

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It´s cleaning after being closed for winter.

The sun beds round the Tapas pool also desperately needed a start of season clean.

You might like to ask about the bougainvillea.

by Guest 24.03.16 17:33

Verdi wrote:
Mr Woolfall transmitted the photographs to the Press Association in London, from where they were distributed to the media. The portfolio included the now famous image of Madeleine wearing a hat on a tennis court.
----------

No more need be said.

Whoa. Had to do a literal double take there. Yet more admission that photos were sent to the press but not even given to the PJ. In this case they're even saying it was done in one fell swoop. Two for me, one for you - the brass of it.

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This adds strength to the argument that mini tennis should've had soft balls - even Crimewatch didn't get that wrong!

Also found this useful perspective picture from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], which also dates one of the previously posted images to May 2007:

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Apologies to HideHo if this post doesn't answer the initial question - my response to that would be that I definitely see wetness, but I'm not well enough placed to debate how or why that's the case.

by Guest 24.03.16 20:30

Not having access to the original photo I played with the contrast/brightness on a couple of sample photos. In both cases the 'water mark' is very clear.

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I'm not convinced there's evidence of sunburn here, taking into account the light direction, as well as the contrast in even the Mail photo (seems to have gone through a filter, even if only a default kind on particular the camera). The arms are darker under the sleeve and elbow as you'd expect - the only 'things that should not be' (in my opinion only) are the small mark on her leg, and the mark near the top of her forearm. This mark is most notable because there is no reason a shadow would be cast in such a fashion (you can't argue it's from a nearby tree as if it were, we'd see the same dappled effect all over). So this does seem to be a real mark of an odd shape (too large to be a thumb print, too small to be fingermarks).

by worriedmum 24.03.16 20:56

Do you mean the mark on her calf, April28th?

by Guest 24.03.16 21:07

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Yes, as highlighted here. The calf mark is probably just a bruise from playing, the forearm I can't work out, it's a weird shape.

ETA - I blew the forearm area up and drew out the shape as best I could without literally inventing an image of my own - an odd shape as I said before. Almost looks like a crude star or a crude letter K?

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by Guest 24.03.16 22:31

Sorry to rain on your parade big grin

but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..

by **Nina** 24.03.16 22:35

Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..

The very first time I saw this water line I actually thought that it was a watermark on the photograph and didn't think it was on the tennis court.

by Guest 24.03.16 22:41

Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..
The very first time I saw this water line I actually thought that it was a watermark on the photograph and didn't think it was on the tennis court.

Now that's what I call sensible thinking - far more logical for it to be an anomaly in the photograph than a freak of nature. Who knows where this photograph originated, where it's been since, how many hands/machines it passed through since hitting the headlines.

by worriedmum 24.03.16 22:48

PRESENT Family Name : McCANN
FAMILY NAME AT BIRTH : McCANN
Forenames : Madeleine Beth
Sex : F
DATE AND Place OF Birth: 12th May 2003 - Leicester, United Kingdom
Also known as Maddie.
OTHER DATES OF BIRTH USED : N/A
FATHER'S FAMILY NAME AND FORENAMES: McCann Gerald Patrick.
MOTHER'S MAIDEN NAME AND FORENAMES : HEALY Kate Marie
IDENTITY : CONFIRMED
NATIONALITY : BRITISH (CONFIRMED)
IDENTITY DOCUMENTS - BRITISH PASSPORT No 45XXXXXXX, issued on 4th August 2003 (UNITED KINGDOM) (Valid until 4th August 2008)
Occupation : N/A
Language Spoken : English
MARITAL STATUS : N/A
DESCRIPTION:
HEIGHT : 90 cms
HAIR : Blond
EYE: Green/Blue
BUILD : Slim
DISTINGUISHING MARKS AND CHARACTERISTICS :
Left Eye : Blue and Green colour
Right Eye : Green colour with a Brown spot in Retina
Small brown mark on Left Leg Calf.

by JRP 24.03.16 23:20

Verdi wrote:
Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..
The very first time I saw this water line I actually thought that it was a watermark on the photograph and didn't think it was on the tennis court.
Now that's what I call sensible thinking - far more logical for it to be an anomaly in the photograph than a freak of nature. Who knows where this photograph originated, where it's been since, how many hands/machines it passed through since hitting the headlines.

The water mark doesn't appear to pass through the child's body though.

by **Nina** 24.03.16 23:42

JRP wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..
The very first time I saw this water line I actually thought that it was a watermark on the photograph and didn't think it was on the tennis court.
Now that's what I call sensible thinking - far more logical for it to be an anomaly in the photograph than a freak of nature. Who knows where this photograph originated, where it's been since, how many hands/machines it passed through since hitting the headlines.

The water mark doesn't appear to pass through the child's body though.

Oh hec didn't want this to be an argument but on a magnification to 250 on my screen it does flag

by Guest 25.03.16 1:35

Nina wrote:
JRP wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Nina wrote:
Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..
The very first time I saw this water line I actually thought that it was a watermark on the photograph and didn't think it was on the tennis court.
Now that's what I call sensible thinking - far more logical for it to be an anomaly in the photograph than a freak of nature. Who knows where this photograph originated, where it's been since, how many hands/machines it passed through since hitting the headlines.

The water mark doesn't appear to pass through the child's body though.
Oh hec didn't want this to be an argument but on a magnification to 250 on my screen it does

Just confirmed this myself...ironically I only noticed when looking from my phone screen and zooming in, ive literally never noticed that the pattern persists over her tshirt before, even when playing with photoshop!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Thanks for that info, not a bruise then.

by canada12 25.03.16 2:51

Here's a reasonably good res version of the "fixed head" tennis balls pic I posted earlier. I didn't alter anything below the neckline of her t-shirt and the tennis balls, so the lower part of the t-shirt is the same as it has always been. I don't see the "watermark" going through her body or clothing. I see a few shadows on creases in the t-shirt fabric, but not a defined watermark line like the watermark line on the tennis court. You can right-click this photo to save it to your computer and enlarge it in a graphics program.

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ETA - it would be extremely useful if someone had captured photos of the tennis court's red area to see whether that wiggly line scuff behind her is present in other pictures of the court.

by Carrry On Doctor 25.03.16 7:02

IMO the tennis balls pic has been taken after a period of light rain. Reasons;

1. As already pointed out, heavy rain or intentional watering/cleaning would likely to leave pools which would be evident. We see the green surface as being damp which is in keeping with light rain in the process of drying up.

2. The green area being wet and the red area dry is possibly due to the different absorbency/porosity properties of the painted surfaces. The red surface may absorb water more readily and becomes dry before the green surface does.

3. The red surface may be hotter in the sun or broken cloud conditions, and dries quicker. The water margin is closer to the warmer red surface (also perhaps more absorbent) and so water dries quicker on the strip of green surface adjacent to the red surface, which creates the effect of dampness receding back from where the 2 surfaces meet.

IF the above is plausible, then perhaps MBM (if the image is genuinely of her) has seized an opportunity to run onto an empty court, or before an adult game resumes, following a period of light rain. Her clothing would suggest it was an overall warm day.

Just my thoughts.

by **HiDeHo** 25.03.16 9:37

Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..

Raining on parade? winkwink

One thing I would like to make clear is that I am watching this thread with interest to see what the overall consensus would be.

Its important to know that I didn't post this topic to try and prove it is a water mark and therefore the pic was not taken at mini tennis as Kate claims.

I was suggesting that IF it is a water mark then there are questions to be asked.

I would be happy to have it proven to be a photographic error. Then we could move on.

For me, facts and truth are far more important than being right so I appreciate everyone's effort to try to establish what the mark is, whichever way it takes us.

by Guest 25.03.16 12:22

Look at the photograph again and you will notice that above the curious marking on the green margin, there are also less conspicuous irregularities in the surface. It would appear from the photographs posted up thread by Tony Bennett, that a regular run of the mill garden hosepipe is used for cleaning purposes as it can be clearly seen within the tennis court. If the local water has a high chemical content, which I suspect most likely, this will leave a residue in the form of staining. In addition, PdL is a coastal region where salt is forever present in the atmosphere - this also leaves a residue in the form of staining following rainfall, heavy mist, morning dew etc. It can even bleach out colour to an extent over time as can the ultraviolet rays from the sun.

Frankly, no matter how many times one studies this image from different perspectives, I can't see how the marking on the court can ever be determined conclusively. Even if it were possible to identify the marking, there still remains the questions - when it was taken, where it was taken, on what tennis court, by whom was is it taken, on whose camera was it taken, is it a genuine photograph etc.

In my opinion, this subject has reached an impasse so I have nothing further to add.

by **HiDeHo** 25.03.16 14:08

Verdi...

The points you raise could be true and I don't think we could ever conclusively determine what the mark is, but then there is very little conclusive results in any of this case...

The reason I asked about opinions on the 'watermark' was not part of an overall effort to determine all of the point you raised as I have tried to make clear.

I recognised what could possibly be a watermark on that photo and have wondered for a few years whether it was because the court was wet but had no confirmation of the weather until a few days ago.

IF it is due to being wet and IF there was no rain and it was determined that the court was not hosed/cleaned etc prior to mini tennis on Tuesday then I was pointing out the discrepancy in Kate claiming it was taken at mini tennis.

'When' may have then been determined by the times the court was wet for that pic to be taken.

Who took it, what camera, whether it was photoshopped is not why I posted this topic and all suggestions in this thread have been really interesting.

Ultimately, I would like to know...

Did Kate take that photo at mini tennis?

If not then WHY would she lie?

by Spacecowboy 25.03.16 14:12

Post deleted

by Rogue-a-Tory 25.03.16 14:28

HiDeHo wrote:
Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red? Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..

Raining on parade?

One thing I would like to make clear is that I am watching this thread with interest to see what the overall consensus would be.

Its important to know that I didn't post this topic to try and prove it is a water mark and therefore the pic was not taken at mini tennis as Kate claims.

I was suggesting that IF it is a water mark then there are questions to be asked.

I would be happy to have it proven to be a photographic error. Then we could move on.

For me, facts and truth are far more important than being right so I appreciate everyone's effort to try to establish what the mark is, whichever way it takes us.

It's always appeared as a water 'tidemark' to me. I've played plenty of sport on different hard surface over the years and from experience they dry in those type of patterns especially with no direct sunlight but just wind - plenty of that on the Algarve.

by **Tony Bennett** 25.03.16 15:29

Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
It's always appeared as a water 'tidemark' to me. I've played plenty of sport on different hard surface over the years and from experience they dry in those type of patterns especially with no direct sunlight but just wind - plenty of that on the Algarve.

If it is a water tide-mark, and having regard to the rest of the thread, which suggests that cleaning with water was not a daily occurrence but mostly likely just a seasonal exercise at the beginning of a season, do you agree that the tide-mark would most likely be caused by rain water drying out, rather than any use of cleaning water?

If you do agree, that might help HideHo to be more precise about when the Tennis Balls Photo was taken.

I think most of the rain that week fell during the day on Wednesday. So the tide-mark would occur sometime after the rain had dried out.

Thursday morning would then be a strong candidate. Especially as we know it was cloudy all that morning.

by Joannep43 25.03.16 16:05

@ HiDeHo There is a video on YouTube "how to dry a wet court in 8 minutes".The video shows a quick and easy way to dry a tennis court.This kind of tool could have been used and could account for the water marks in a line.I know it doesn't answer the question whether the court was cleaned or wet due to rain.

by **HiDeHo** 25.03.16 16:08

HiDeHo wrote:
-----------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know what the 'cleaning' consisted of and whether someone with the expertise could guess on the watermark. I don't believe anyone can say 100% if it was water but that brings me to another issue.

I have been holding back for a few years on asking this question regarding the water because I didn't have the weather reports from PdL. Only from Faro and in the past few days I have the reports which indicate no precipitation on Monday night or Tuesday and have also studied some videos that we taken in Alvor during that week which would have had the same weather...

These are the videos which show Monday and Tuesday along with the Faro reports for those times.

The video weather appears to match that as you can see in the Faro reports.

It is a Windsurfing competition from Monday (registrations) to Saturday (Finals) and according to the schedule the competition starts at around 11am or after.

The second video shows clear before the competition with clouds after. As per the weather report)

Formular windsurfing Grand Prix Portimao Portugal Day 1 APRIL 30th 2007

MONDAY WEATHER FARO

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Formular windsurfing Grand Prix Portimao Portugal Day 2 MAY 1st 2007

TUESDAY MAY 1st WEATHER

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It was only after checking all of the above along with the PdL Weather forecast that I felt confident enough to make this post with the knowledge there was likely no rainfall Monday or Tuesday morning before the mini tennis.

What I find interesting, particularly after 'confirming' as best that I can that there was no rain before Tuesday morning I was curious why the ONLY reference to rain was Kate claiming rain on Tuesday Is it possible that if she released this photo SPECIFICALLY to place Maddie alive on Tuesday but maybe the photo was taken after a court cleaning on eg Monday and remembering the court was wet when she took the photo preempted the explanation of it being wet by saying it rained on Tuesday....

That may be a little too far contrived, for me anyway..but I mention anyway :)

Bumping this post to add the videos from Wednesday and Thursday... Keep in mind that the competition times were apparently after 11am which would account for no rain showing on the Wednesday video....

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WEDNESDAY May 2nd 2007

Faro Weather report for Wednesday May 2nd

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THURSDAY May 3rd 2007

FARO Weather Thursday May 3rd 2007

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by JohnyT 25.03.16 20:52

IMHO the more 'suntanned' look is due to the upwards reflection of the surface that she's standing on.
JohnyT

by joyce1938 26.03.16 4:34

I have stayed in Tavira many times and it was often that the Faro weather was not exactly the same as Tavira. I live on south coast and it can be wet 1 mile away and dry elsewhere. So trying to work that wet or dry courts maybe not like as easy as that. I still wonder if it was early evening but just before her bedtime. I wish i could find it, but no good at it at my age of life. Picking up balls after Daddy's game sort of sticks in my mind. joyce1938

by Guest 26.03.16 13:06

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I made a similar comment some while back. Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain. I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be. It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles. I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact. The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

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Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there! I digress..

by **HiDeHo** 26.03.16 14:26

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I made a similar comment some while back. Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain. I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be. It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles. I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact. The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there! I digress..

Verdi...

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the second paragraph about me harbouring the thought and the relation to Crimewatch.

Could you explain for me please? Maybe it was too much Easter dinner and too many chocolate bunnies yesterday has addled my brain :)

by **HiDeHo** 26.03.16 14:46

Something caught my eye on my driveway.... Added comparisons...

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WHAT WE KNOW:

1) Kate claims this pic was taken by her during Maddie's mini tennis

2) According to the tennis booking sheets and Georgina the tennis coach it was Tuesday 10am

3) According to the booking sheets Court cleaning was 'booked' for two hours AFTER mini tennis (on at least one of the two courts)

4) As far as we have been able to establish there was no precipitation in the days/hours prior to the mini tennis (I should be able to confirm this at some point)

5) The mark on the pic is similar to wet asphalt as it dries

We are attempting to establish whether Kate took the photo at mini tennis

by Guest 26.03.16 15:33

HiDeHo wrote:
Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I made a similar comment some while back. Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain. I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be. It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles. I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact. The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there! I digress..

Verdi...

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the second paragraph about me harbouring the thought and the relation to Crimewatch.

Could you explain for me please? Maybe it was too much Easter dinner and too many chocolate bunnies yesterday has addled my brain :)

HiDeHo,

Yes, definitely a chronic case of over egged - my post was in answer to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]! smilie

by **HiDeHo** 26.03.16 15:41

Verdi wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:
Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I made a similar comment some while back. Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain. I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be. It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles. I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact. The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there! I digress..

Verdi...

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the second paragraph about me harbouring the thought and the relation to Crimewatch.

Could you explain for me please? Maybe it was too much Easter dinner and too many chocolate bunnies yesterday has addled my brain :)
HiDeHo,

Yes, definitely a chronic case of over egged - my post was in answer to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]!