When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

by **HiDeHo** 22.03.16 14:00

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Was it Kate or was it Jane that took the pic?

Tennis records say Tuesday was Lobsters mini tennis

Jane said it was Wednesday

Rachael claims it was Thursday.

Regardless of the day... WAS THE COURT WET?

If so, then WHEN did it get wet? There was no rain overnight or Tuesday morning before the mini tennis.

Tennis booking forms show it was cleaned midday Tuesday AFTER the mini tennis at 10 (Court 1 and possibly court 2) No records for Sunday or Monday.

If the court was wet then how could it have become wet before mini tennis OR was the photo taken at another time?

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by jeanmonroe 22.03.16 14:48

WHATTTTTTT?

....the 'tennis balls ' pic has been 'taken'?

Have Ge££y and Ka£e set up a Find The Tennis Balls Pic Fund. PLC. LNSU. (Blah, blah, blah.)

Please 'donate'.

What a 'racket'*!

*Racket is also the correct spelling in reference to (1) a loud distressing noise, (2) commotion, and (3) a dishonest and profitable business practice.

by joyce1938 22.03.16 16:21

I felt sure that at one time that maddie went to the courts as it was time daddy had been playing ,so this was the reason for the 2 kids running around collecting them up,this seemed to be after high tea and more early evening ,maybe someone else had seen this ? Its just stuck in my head that was the way it was . joyce1938

by worriedmum 22.03.16 18:16

joyce1938 wrote:I felt sure that at one time that maddie went to the courts as it was time daddy had been playing ,so this was the reason for the 2 kids running around collecting them up,this seemed to be after high tea and more early evening ,maybe someone else had seen this ? Its just stuck in my head that was the way it was . joyce1938

There is confusion about when this picture was taken. I see that members of the holiday group offer differing times for the time it was taken.

I tend to agree with Joyce, for the following reasons;

i) The tennis balls are the type used by adults, not the the sponge ones used by small children.

ii)Madeleine is wearing a floppy hat. The brim would fall forward and the hat could come off if she was playing tennis.

iii) Madeleine had trainers but is wearing sandals.

iv)There is no-one in the background. If small children were running around collecting balls, I'm surprised there isn't at least part of one of them showing- they would be chasing the same balls to pick up and would cluster round them.

v)There is no tennis racket

vi)The fact there is no agreement on when it was taken makes me consider other possibilities.

by Guest 22.03.16 19:41

It's a horrible photograph - freakish!

madeleine by Kate McCann (published May 2011)

Tuesday 1st May 2007

During Gerry’s tennis lesson, Madeleine and Ella came to the adjoining court with their Mini Club for a mini-tennis session. Jane [that name again] and I stayed to watch them. It chokes me remembering how my heart soared with pride in Madeleine that morning. She was so happy and obviously enjoying herself. Standing there listening intently to Cat’s instructions [I was given to understand that the tennis coaches supervised the mini tennis sessions] , she looked so gorgeous in her little T-shirt and shorts, pink hat, ankle socks and new holiday sandals [what parent would dress their three year old child in a pair of sandals play tennis] that I ran back to our apartment for my camera [which one] to record the occasion. One [one? what happened to the rest] of my photographs is known around the world now: a smiling Madeleine clutching armfuls of tennis balls [yes, standard tennis balls]. At the end of their session, the children had been asked to run around the court and pick up as many balls as they could [just how many balls were there?]. Madeleine had done really well and was very pleased with herself. Gerry loves that picture [yeah, I bet he does].

There's an awful lot of balls in that there graphic recollection.

by **sandancer** 22.03.16 21:19

"What parent would dress their three year old child in sandals to play tennis ? "

Not to mention that ridiculous pink floppy hat ! Tuesday , Wednesday Thursday was it sunny enough to warrant a sun hat ?

Is English really Russell O'Briens first language ? I cannot make head nor tail of his statement . In fact reading any of their statements make me reach for headache tablets or the bottle !

by canada12 22.03.16 21:45

And why does Madeleine apparently have a very sunburned right arm, but an untanned and very white right hand with a well-defined dividing line between the two parts?

by **HiDeHo** 22.03.16 21:56

The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?

by **Nina** 22.03.16 22:03

HiDeHo wrote:The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?

I have often wondered why Madeleine's little sandals or socks show no scuffs or signs of having run over the red/green court.

by **Tony Bennett** 22.03.16 22:19

HiDeHo wrote:The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?

First of all I will take it as read, for the moment, that the court shows evidence of having been made wet. I assume you mean the area in the green in the top half of the photograph.

Next I ask myself if the court actually needed to be made wet, if and when it was cleaned. Or was it just brushed?

If it was not made wet when cleaned, and if indeed the photo shows a damp area, then the most likely period during the week for the damp area to appear would IMO surely be following Wednesday's rain? IIRC Wednesday was the only day they had any appreciable rain?

P.S. It would be a shame if other comments on the Tennis Balls Photo could not be placed on the thread. There is quite a list of problems with it, which I'll take the liberty of attempting to summarise:

1. Different claims for the day it was taken
2. Different claims for who took it, on which camera
3. Adult tennis balls being collected, not soft ones
4. No-one else in shot
5. Madeleine wearing inappropriate large floppy clothes
6. Girl looks to have bigger, sturdier body frame than Madeleine
7. Girl wearing inappropriate sandals
8. Query as to whether Madeleine had such sandals
9. Absence of other photos taken about the same time
10. Girl's arms legs look red and sunburnt - unlike Madeleine's on 'Last Photo'
11. Girl seems to have big bruise on right knee and bruises/scratch marks on right arm
12. Sudden change of colour from red to pale on girl's right hand
13. Suggestion that Madeleine's head has been photoshopped onto girl's body - her head looks to the right of where it 'should' be.
14. Would adults have been playing tennis, with balls being hit at up to 100mph or more, on an adjacent court to where three year old children were allegedly playing mini-tennis?
15. Is the 'right' court in shot?
16. (and per Nina, just above) Girls' sandals or socks show no scuffs or signs of having run over the red/green court.

That's quite a formidable list, and even then, I've probably missed out one or two points

by Guest 22.03.16 22:20

A strange photo, IMO. Looks as if the head has been photoshopped onto a different body. It could have been taken anywhere. Reminds me of fuzzyfelt I played with as a child.

by Guest 22.03.16 22:40

HiDeHo wrote:The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?

As I've said before, I don't think you can be sure about the condition of the court from a photograph - especially a photograph that's been reproduced time and time again, my naked eye doesn't tell me wet surface.

Would children of that age group be allowed to play tennis or mess about on that particular type of court surface? I have no experience of mini tennis session but the very idea appears a trifle dangerous to me - more so when the children are being supervised by Warners/Ocean Club employees. Can you imagine the repercussions if there was serious accident?

by **HiDeHo** 22.03.16 22:43

Tony Bennett wrote:

P.S. It would be a shame if other comments on the Tennis Balls Photo could not be placed on the thread. There is quite a list of problems with it, which I'll take the liberty of attempting to summarise:

1. Different claims for the day it was taken
2. Different claims for who took it, on which camera
3. Adult tennis balls being collected, not soft ones
4. No-one else in shot
5. Madeleine wearing inappropriate large floppy clothes
6. Girl looks to have bigger, sturdier body frame than Madeleine
7. Girl wearing inappropriate sandals
8. Query as to whether Madeleine had such sandals
9. Absence of other photos taken about the same time
10. Girl's arms legs look red and sunburnt - unlike Madeleine's on 'Last Photo'
11. Girl seems to have big bruise on right knee and bruises/scratch marks on right arm
12. Sudden change of colour from red to pale on girl's right hand
13. Suggestion that Madeleine's head has been photoshopped onto girl's body - her head looks to the right of where it 'should' be.
14. Would adults have been playing tennis, with balls being hit at up to 100mph or more, on an adjacent court to where three year old children were allegedly playing mini-tennis?
15. Is the 'right' court in shot?
16. (and per Nina, just above) Girls' sandals or socks show no scuffs or signs of having run over the red/green court.

That's quite a formidable list, and even then, I've probably missed out one or two points

I agree that in the overall picture of a thread dedicated to when it was taken in general that all the discrepancies should be recognised and looked at.

In this particular instance it is a discrepancy that apart from quickly commenting about it in another thread has not been addressed and IF it is in fact water on the court (inside the court lines) then very simply I am asking WHEN the court was wet and if it didnt rain and the court cleaning was not until two hours later then it would show that Kate is likely lying about it being taken on Tuesday...

All the other issues add to the volume but this is ONE issue that in and of itself can PROVE that the picture was not taken at mini tennis and because of that prefer that the other issues although valuable, don't cloud the discussion about the HUGE discrepancy (if it is water) that can PROVE Kate was lying and that ultimately if she was lying about the photo date, WHY?

Was it because Maddie wasnt at mini tennis?

That discussion as well takes the discussion off the real topic of WHEN WAS THE WATER (if indeed it was water) ON THE COURT...?

It could give us PROOF about the tennis pic being taken maybe on Monday... as there was no rain to my knowledge on Monday night /Tuesday morning...

I should maybe have put the bottom line to ask WAS THIS PHOTO TAKEN DURING MINI TENNIS?

Discrepancies about Maddies mini tennis are, as you point out a long list and should maybe be discussed on a thread of its own with this video?

by **HiDeHo** 22.03.16 22:49

Verdi wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?
As I've said before, I don't think you can be sure about the condition of the court from a photograph - especially a photograph that's been reproduced time and time again, my naked eye doesn't tell me wet surface.

Would children of that age group be allowed to play tennis or mess about on that particular type of court surface? I have no experience of mini tennis session but the very idea appears a trifle dangerous to me - more so when the children are being supervised by Warners/Ocean Club employees. Can you imagine the repercussions if there was serious accident?

I agree that we can't be sure but it certainly looks like a good possibility and IF that is the case then would Mark Warner allow kiddies onto the court while it was wet?

If not then we can suggest that KATE WAS LYING about when the photo was taken.

When was the court wet (if thats what it is) and when would Maddie have been on the court with tennis balls when it was wet?

by **HiDeHo** 22.03.16 22:59

I would like to know how many agree that it looks like the court was wet inside the lines.

I would like to know if anyone has any information about when the court was cleaned PRIOR to mini tennis at 10am Tuesday May 1st

I would like to know if there is any evidence that there was any rain that would be on the court (inside the lines) prior to mini tennis on May 1 Tuesday.

I don't look for things to fit... I welcome being corrected as I don't want ANY of my information to be incorrect...

Hence I am asking these questions on this thread and if it is agreed it is wet and nothing to indicate why it should be wet before mini tennis then there is a GREAT LIKELIHOOD that Kate is lying about the photo and then it would be interesting to discuss WHY she would lie about the photo being taken on Tuesday...

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by joyce1938 22.03.16 23:03

I think that one of the nursery teachers said that Maddie was at mini tennis, and the same time another and some of their friend said she was on small dingy on the water and said Maddie had cried at first as she said she was frightened, but soon got over it. So where was she really? joyce1938

by Guest 22.03.16 23:03

Nina wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?
I have often wondered why Madeleine's little sandals or socks show no scuffs or signs of having run over the red/green court.

I've often wondered why Madeleine was wearing sandals for messing about on a hard surface tennis court - full stop. She was wearing trainers when photographed on the first day in the playground; if the cleaner is to be taken seriously she was wearing trainers at lunchtime on the way to chez Payne - ostensibly in her posh frock yet her mother (or father) decided to let her wear sandals for tennis?

Doesn't add up does it.

by Guest 22.03.16 23:04

HiDeHo wrote:
Verdi wrote:
HiDeHo wrote:The focus of my questions is more about the court being wet and if that is the case WHEN was it taken?

When was the court wet?

The kiddies would not have been allowed to play mini tennis on a wet court (though I doubt there was any real tennis involved) but IF as Kate said she took the pic at mini tennis then WHEN did the court become wet...

OR was this picture taken at another time? Maybe after lunch on Monday if the court was cleaned at the same time as Tuesday?
As I've said before, I don't think you can be sure about the condition of the court from a photograph - especially a photograph that's been reproduced time and time again, my naked eye doesn't tell me wet surface.

Would children of that age group be allowed to play tennis or mess about on that particular type of court surface? I have no experience of mini tennis session but the very idea appears a trifle dangerous to me - more so when the children are being supervised by Warners/Ocean Club employees. Can you imagine the repercussions if there was serious accident?

I agree that we can't be sure but it certainly looks like a good possibility and IF that is the case then would Mark Warner allow kiddies onto the court while it was wet?

If not then we can suggest that KATE WAS LYING about when the photo was taken.

When was the court wet (if thats what it is) and when would Maddie have been on the court with tennis balls when it was wet?

And wearing sandals?

by Guest 22.03.16 23:08

sandancer wrote:"What parent would dress their three year old child in sandals to play tennis ? "

Not to mention that ridiculous pink floppy hat ! Tuesday , Wednesday Thursday was it sunny enough to warrant a sun hat ?

Is English really Russell O'Briens first language ? I cannot make head nor tail of his statement . In fact reading any of their statements make me reach for headache tablets or the bottle !

You have my deepest sympathy - I strongly recommend an idiots guide to linguistics, an empty stomach, gallons of strong coffee and a few hours to spare.

I tried earlier to find Jane Tanner's version of the tennis ball photograph origin..

angrypcuser

No more need be said.

by roy rovers 22.03.16 23:11

If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

by joyce1938 22.03.16 23:18

I find it really odd ,that a few small kids would be put onto a normal size court to play at all. They would have no chance of hitting a ball over the net ,far too much space to run around in ,I think its an excuse for mini tennis ,just a bit of time running around .The ball collecting shows that the kids could not use them .I hope we can all gather and try to work this out ,but like so many lies told about that holiday,maybe we can never know . joyce1938

by **HiDeHo** 22.03.16 23:19

roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Thanks Roy Rovers that a very good point :)

by Guest 22.03.16 23:24

canada12 wrote:And why does Madeleine apparently have a very sunburned right arm, but an untanned and very white right hand with a well-defined dividing line between the two parts?

That will be the small sunburn she had on her arm - you know, the innocent explanation for anything and everything the police might find. smilie

In their innocence, kids of that age are generally physically relaxed and rubbery - in that photograph she looks awkward and rigid. Can't really put my finger on it but somethings not right.

by **Tony Bennett** 22.03.16 23:30

roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Not necessarily. If the ground is not completely flat, water after a rain shower can gather in very shallow pools of water and can also leave 'tide' or 'high water' marks - look at any pavement after a heavy shower.

If however you stick with the suggestion that this was cleaning water, in order to advance any theory about when the photo was taken, you would surely have to establish at least these two things:

1) WHEN the pools were cleaned i.e. how often, on what days, at what times etc., but also

2) HOW they were cleaned - with water? with brushing? sometimes with water? sometimes with brushing?

by **Tony Bennett** 22.03.16 23:39

Verdi wrote:
canada12 wrote:And why does Madeleine apparently have a very sunburned right arm, but an untanned and very white right hand with a well-defined dividing line between the two parts?
That will be the small sunburn she had on her arm - you know, the innocent explanation for anything and everything the police might find.

Surely the even more important point about all the red sunburn, and scratches, and bruises on her arms and legs is this, isn't it?

How come she was all raw and red and sunburnt and scratched and bruised etc. by Tuesday (when Kate says the Tennis Ball Photo was taken), yet is, by comparison, so pale she looks almost white in the so-called Last Photo, allegedly taken at 2.29pm pm on the Thursday, two days later??

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by **Nina** 22.03.16 23:44

Tony Bennett wrote:
roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Not necessarily. If the ground is not completely flat, water after a rain shower can gather in very shallow pools of water and can also leave 'tide' or 'high water' marks - look at any pavement after a heavy shower.

If however you stick with the suggestion that this was cleaning water, in order to advance any theory about when the photo was taken, you would surely have to establish at least these two things:

1) WHEN the pools were cleaned i.e. how often, on what days, at what times etc., but also

2) HOW they were cleaned - with water? with brushing? sometimes with water? sometimes with brushing?

Daft question but why would you clean a tennis court?

by worriedmum 22.03.16 23:51

quote ''How come she was all raw and red and sunburnt and scratched and bruised etc. by Tuesday (when Kate says the Tennis Ball Photo was taken), yet is, by comparison, so pale she looks almost white in the so-called Last Photo, allegedly taken at 2.29pm pm on the Thursday, two days later?? '' unquote

Tony I would also draw your attention to the fact that the tennis photo was reproduced 'flipped',
(that is, with Madeleine facing the opposite way) in IIRC, Dutch newspapers. This would mean that the discoloured arm in the tennis photo would be the same arm visible on the 'last' photo....which does not look discoloured to me...

by **HiDeHo** 23.03.16 0:30

Nina wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Not necessarily. If the ground is not completely flat, water after a rain shower can gather in very shallow pools of water and can also leave 'tide' or 'high water' marks - look at any pavement after a heavy shower.

If however you stick with the suggestion that this was cleaning water, in order to advance any theory about when the photo was taken, you would surely have to establish at least these two things:

1) WHEN the pools were cleaned i.e. how often, on what days, at what times etc., but also

2) HOW they were cleaned - with water? with brushing? sometimes with water? sometimes with brushing?
Daft question but why would you clean a tennis court?

Not a daft question...

The recommendations (not for OC) are here....

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It could be cleaned with a power washer.. (not recommended)

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Or a special device that keeps the water pressure on the court at an acceptable level evenly...

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We dont know what the process for OC was but we know it was scheduled for Tuesday midday, two hours after mini tennis...

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by canada12 23.03.16 1:48

Verdi wrote:
canada12 wrote:And why does Madeleine apparently have a very sunburned right arm, but an untanned and very white right hand with a well-defined dividing line between the two parts?
That will be the small sunburn she had on her arm - you know, the innocent explanation for anything and everything the police might find.

In their innocence, kids of that age are generally physically relaxed and rubbery - in that photograph she looks awkward and rigid. Can't really put my finger on it but somethings not right.

When I look at that photo I see the following:

1. A child's head with a hat on it
2. A two-year old's body - chubby and compact
3. The long legs and feet of child older than two
4. The long right arm of a child older than two
5. A right hand of a child much much older than two
6. A peculiar left hand with a strange curve in the wrist area

The above six body areas may not necessarily be parts of the same child.

by canada12 23.03.16 2:47

The reason why the tennis balls photo looks all wrong is because it IS all wrong.
I'm not an expert photoshopper but I did a quick edit job and positioned the child's head where it looks more natural.You can see if you remove the "hunch" in the back, you have a child standing in a much more realistic and natural position than in the photo that was published. If you temporarily accept that the tennis balls photo is a composite the question then becomes why present such an awkward photo to the world?
1. A bad and rushed photoshopping job?
2. The child standing upright looks much older and taller than the Madeleine presented to the world?
3. Hunched makes the child look smaller and shorter?
Answers on a postcard....
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Here's the original so you can compare:
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(Sorry I don't mean to disrupt this thread which is about when the photo was taken, not what it shows.. mods please move this and my other posting above to a more appropriate area if you feel it's off-topic - thanks)