Christian Brueckner: To be or not to be

lisbon wrote:@chambers

Chambers: "What I will say, is that if CB is convicted, it won't matter a jot to a lot of people who will simply refuse to believe it's nothing more than the cover up being perpetuated by dark forces."



That may be true, but the blame for this largely rests with Operation Grange. Their insistence that they were going to look again at the case but not include the possibility of the McCanns being involved is the stuff on which conspiracy theories are built. It was an utterly stupid decision, as well as being the total opposite of what an independent investigation should be.

Post the ongoing debacle that is Operation Grange, I'm sure the German police have exercised all rigor during their investigation to guard against making the mistakes of the past.
I don't like it any more than anyone else here, but sadly it looks like they have enough circumstantial evidence to be sure, but not enough to convince the prosecutors to take it to trial.
HCW can't arrest and interview him under caution because he would be met with a wall of silence and he would have to show his hand, so it's pointless.

I initially thought maybe CB was merely complicit as a local miscreant recruited to assist in occultation, but that now appears to be wide of the mark.

Chambers: "What I will say, is that if CB is convicted, it won't matter a jot to a lot of people who will simply refuse to believe it's nothing more than the cover up being perpetuated by dark forces."


I don't think that is right. If CB is to be convicted the prosecution will have to show the court the exact MO he adopted, spelling out the point of entry, the point of exit, the way in which he took a sleeping child from a bed without disturbing the bedclothes, how he got her out without being seen, and then what he subsequently did with her.   
They would have to explain the total lack of any forensic evidence of entry, presence or exit, and how it could all be achieved within the 1 minute 35 seconds allowed by the McCanns and Tapas 7.

So soon as I hear, or see new evidence of that sort I shall personally and obviously reconsider everything I thought I once knew about the case.

That is the whole point about evidence.   It has nothing to do with Belief.   

In fact I think your statement applies more to those who refuse to accept or even to consider the evidence so far obtained; who simply dismiss the dogs' alerts out of hand; who skip lightly over the whole shutters-and-window issues; who refuse to consider the extensive weather reports for the whole week; who refuse to put into context the remarkable coincidences of travel and the sudden appearance of a previously undeclared photo . . .


NEVER FORGET:-   The German Legal System is INQUISITORIAL not ACCUSATORIAL.  The judge and the Schöffen (Lay judges – somewhat similar to Magistrates in the English system) ask questions of witnesses, of the lawyers and of the accused.   And not just bland ones.  Really penetrating ones.
In the English system the Jury only hear what the Prosecution and Defence choose to let them.   
In the German system they can go behind this 'wall'.

H. Wolters. You say CB abducted MBM.   Can you explain to us exactly HOW ?

Chambers wrote:I initially thought maybe CB was merely complicit as a local miscreant recruited to assist in occultation, but that now appears to be wide of the mark.

Funny... because that's exactly what another user, who came here to mislead forum members, said about this Christian Brueckner charade.

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:I initially thought maybe CB was merely complicit as a local miscreant recruited to assist in occultation, but that now appears to be wide of the mark.

Funny... because that's exactly what another user, who came here to mislead forum members, said about this Christian Brueckner charade.

I'll take that as a compliment if you consider me competent and persuasive enough to 'mislead' forum members - and only 5 posts in too.

PeterMac wrote:Chambers: "What I will say, is that if CB is convicted, it won't matter a jot to a lot of people who will simply refuse to believe it's nothing more than the cover up being perpetuated by dark forces."


I don't think that is right. If CB is to be convicted the prosecution will have to show the court the exact MO he adopted, spelling out the point of entry, the point of exit, the way in which he took a sleeping child from a bed without disturbing the bedclothes, how he got her out without being seen, and then what he subsequently did with her.   
They would have to explain the total lack of any forensic evidence of entry, presence or exit, and how it could all be achieved within the 1 minute 35 seconds allowed by the McCanns and Tapas 7.

So soon as I hear, or see new evidence of that sort I shall personally and obviously reconsider everything I thought I once knew about the case.

That is the whole point about evidence.   It has nothing to do with Belief.   

In fact I think your statement applies more to those who refuse to accept or even to consider the evidence so far obtained; who simply dismiss the dogs' alerts out of hand; who skip lightly over the whole shutters-and-window issues; who refuse to consider the extensive weather reports for the whole week; who refuse to put into context the remarkable coincidences of travel and the sudden appearance of a previously undeclared photo . . .


NEVER FORGET:-   The German Legal System is INQUISITORIAL not ACCUSATORIAL.  The judge and the Schöffen (Lay judges – somewhat similar to Magistrates in the English system) ask questions of witnesses, of the lawyers and of the accused.   And not just bland ones.  Really penetrating ones.
In the English system the Jury only hear what the Prosecution and Defence choose to let them.   
In the German system they can go behind this 'wall'.

H. Wolters. You say CB abducted MBM.   Can you explain to us exactly HOW ?

Cracking post, Peter.
As for it being about 'evidence' and not 'belief', that's true to a point; but it will boil down to the 'belief' or 'opinion' of 3 seasoned judges, based on the evidence presented.
In terms of the evidence collated against the McCann's; the dogs, the shutters, the photos, etc, I doubt HCW and his team would even touch upon any of that. They will zero in on CB and attempt to build their case brick by brick. CB's defence will have to dismantle that case, and to muddy the waters with the old '3rd party defence' would be counter productive. In my opinion.

Chambers wrote:

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:I initially thought maybe CB was merely complicit as a local miscreant recruited to assist in occultation, but that now appears to be wide of the mark.

Funny... because that's exactly what another user, who came here to mislead forum members, said about this Christian Brueckner charade.

I'll take that as a compliment if you consider me competent and persuasive enough to 'mislead' forum members - and only 5 posts in too.

Drop the act, alright?

CMOMM has an excellent moderator who doesn't tolerate the presence of time wasters and misinformation/disinformation spreaders.

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:I initially thought maybe CB was merely complicit as a local miscreant recruited to assist in occultation, but that now appears to be wide of the mark.

Funny... because that's exactly what another user, who came here to mislead forum members, said about this Christian Brueckner charade.

I'll take that as a compliment if you consider me competent and persuasive enough to 'mislead' forum members - and only 5 posts in too.

Drop the act, alright?

CMOMM has an excellent moderator who doesn't tolerate the presence of time wasters and misinformation/disinformation spreaders.

Look, I've no idea what this is about, but if you think I'm some erstwhile, disgruntled member here to disrupt, you're wrong.
However, for the sake of indulgence, please show me where I've 'spread misinformation'.

Chambers wrote:

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:I initially thought maybe CB was merely complicit as a local miscreant recruited to assist in occultation, but that now appears to be wide of the mark.

Funny... because that's exactly what another user, who came here to mislead forum members, said about this Christian Brueckner charade.

I'll take that as a compliment if you consider me competent and persuasive enough to 'mislead' forum members - and only 5 posts in too.

Drop the act, alright?

CMOMM has an excellent moderator who doesn't tolerate the presence of time wasters and misinformation/disinformation spreaders.

Look, I've no idea what this is about, but if you think I'm some erstwhile, disgruntled member here to disrupt, you're wrong.
However, for the sake of indulgence, please show me where I've 'spread misinformation'.

Cool it Chambers, you've been a member here for only 24 hours and already sparks are flying, although I strongly suspect you are no stranger to the forum - aside from 'lurking'.

Consider this a friendly warning.

The Brueckner story-line has been active now for nigh on 17 months, since it hit the headlines early June 2020.

It has attracted a great deal of interest over the months but in essence, the story hasn't progressed even one step - neither has commentary!

Wolters is still dangling the carrot but apparently no further forward on the evidence stakes. Armchair detectives continue to argue the toss across social media but the story-line has stagnated within the cells of a German Alcatraz - allegedly.

Interesting to note, along side notorious errant journalists like Sandra Felgueiras and various other appendages who have attached themselves to the mysterious disappearance of Madeleine McCann, Herr Hans Christian Wolters also features in the Discovery+ Madeleine McCann documentary with the German criminologist. You know, the one who thinks Brueckner fits the profile of the perfect paedophile child abductor.

Only problem with this scenario that's been rattling about for so long .... no evidence to suggest Madeleline McCann was abducted.

Take your pick - the only difference is the language..

Verdi wrote:

Chambers wrote:

Paulo Alexandre wrote:

Chambers wrote:

Paulo Alexandre wrote:
Funny... because that's exactly what another user, who came here to mislead forum members, said about this Christian Brueckner charade.

I'll take that as a compliment if you consider me competent and persuasive enough to 'mislead' forum members - and only 5 posts in too.

Drop the act, alright?

CMOMM has an excellent moderator who doesn't tolerate the presence of time wasters and misinformation/disinformation spreaders.

Look, I've no idea what this is about, but if you think I'm some erstwhile, disgruntled member here to disrupt, you're wrong.
However, for the sake of indulgence, please show me where I've 'spread misinformation'.

Cool it Chambers, you've been a member here for only 24 hours and already sparks are flying, although I strongly suspect you are no stranger to the forum - aside from 'lurking'.

Consider this a friendly warning.

Cool it? Drop the act? Sparks are flying?
Any chance you could show me where all this is happening?
And it's hardly a friendly warning, when you're telling me to 'cool it' despite having done absolutely nothing.

Geeez-us, give me strength.

Here we go again ....

As well as lurking on here, I've been lurking on Websleuths for a few months.

It's interesting that most of the early posts on Websleuths focus on the McCanns. But now, if you're a newbie like me, you go on the site and almost all you see on the first page are wall-to-wall discussions about CB - well over a thousand posts. This is important because it sets the agenda. Whereas once a newbie without much knowledge went on and began to wonder about the possible role of the McCanns, now they go on and it's all about the likely role of Brueckner. Set the agenda, as they say, and you've won half the battle.

Are there paid shills on these sites? It's possible. Compared to half a million euros to a dodgy detective agency, $15 an hour is a bargain.

But, of course, this is just my opinion.

Yes thank you lisbon, I posted the link just over a week ago on this very thread.

I'm surprised as a member and 'a lurker' you missed it.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t17190p125-christian-brueckner-to-be-or-not-to-be#443738

Madeleine McCann: Investigation was flawed from the start, says senior detective who was there

June 5, 2020 2.58pm BST

News that a 43-year-old German man is now the prime suspect in the Madeleine McCann case appears – at last – to be a significant development.

The information from the German authorities and the Metropolitan Police Service indicates that in May 2007 this man was living and frequenting Praia da Luz, Portugal, and possibly committing burglaries at holiday complexes to fund his itinerant lifestyle. It also appears that as a teenager he was convicted of sexual offences against children in Germany and was therefore a known convicted sex offender in 2007.

This raises several questions: was he known to the Portuguese investigation team at the time? If so, when did his name enter their system and what did they do to implicate or eliminate him from their enquiry? When was his name passed on to the UK investigation team? These are questions at the forefront of my mind as I think back to my time in Portugal.

Madeleine McCann had been missing for several days when I arrived in Praia da Luz in May 2007. I had been sent to Portugal as part of the UK’s Child Exploitation Online Protection Centre (CEOP) response to Madeleine’s disappearance. I was a detective superintendent and senior investigating officer (SIO) with knowledge about predatory child sexual abusers and non-familial child abduction.
Disinformation is dangerous. We fight it with facts and expertise.

After being briefed at the British Consulate regarding Madeleine’s disappearance, I met with Gerry and Kate McCann at their holiday apartment and we discussed the Portuguese police investigation strategy and possible scenarios that could have led to their daughter’s disappearance. Understandably, the McCanns were trying to come to terms with the situation they found themselves in.

During our discussion, Gerry asked me directly if I thought his daughter was still alive, and I pointed out that if she had been abducted – statistically – she would by now be dead. The majority of children who are murdered after being abducted by someone unknown to them are dead within three to six hours. It was a difficult conversation, but I was struck by how focused the McCanns remained throughout.

The following day I went to the police station in Praia da Luz and spoke with several of the lead Portuguese investigators. They were all very polite but it was clear from their attitude and response that they didn’t welcome what they considered to be UK interference in a Portuguese crime. At that time, they were also receiving advice from Leicestershire Police (the McCanns’ home police force) supported by the then UK National Police Improvement Agency (NPIA).

From the outset I was struck by the lack of urgency surrounding the investigation and it was difficult to establish any detailed information around what direction the investigation was taking. Over the next few days, whenever I suggested certain courses of action that they might wish to consider, the Portuguese police either dismissed it out of hand or I was informed that it had already been done without result.


German prosecutor Hans Christian Wolters gives a press statement on the Madeleine McCann case on June 4 2020 after a 43-year-old German man was identified as being suspected of her murder. EPA-EFE/FOCKE STRANGMANN

Flawed investigation

As the days went by, I became more and more frustrated and I relayed this back to CEOP in my telephone conversations and daily written reports. After ten exasperating days avoiding the growing media presence, trying to get and impart information and having meetings cancelled at the last minute because investigators were too busy, it was still unclear to me whether many of the key investigative tasks had been adequately completed.

For example, I had serious misgivings about the quality of the search strategy, the recording of full-time and casual staff at the holiday complex, identification of all known suspected and convicted sex offenders living or frequenting the area, and other significant or relevant crimes in the local area.

My professional opinion was that the Portuguese investigative approach to Madeleine’s disappearance was flawed and not fit for purpose when set against what we would have been done in a similar investigation in the UK. This was reflected time and time again in my verbal and written reports and the “fiasco” was regularly reported on in the press.

Disappointingly, as the investigation progressed there was also a certain amount of inter-agency rivalry between the UK agencies involved, which resulted in a fraught working relationship.

‘Golden hours’ wasted

In the years since Madeleine’s disappearance, I have also raised my concerns as to whether agencies across Europe are still any better prepared for these types of investigations. When an investigation team doesn’t gather information or act in a timely and systematic fashion, the investigation gets away from them and this dramatically reduces the chances of the crime being solved.

My experience then, and even more so now having studied the behaviour of non-familial child abductors and murderers in-depth as a criminologist, is that the first 24 to 48 hours of a child abduction investigation – often referred to as the “golden hours” – are critical to its successful outcome. It requires strong, dynamic leadership supported by clear defensible decision making.

This must be backed up by systems and structures designed to collect and evaluate information quickly. At the same time, information must be retained in a manner so that it can be revisited at appropriate times as the investigation moves forward and alternative lines of enquiry are considered.

Non-familial child abduction attracts vast amounts of media attention. High-profile cases often attract national media coverage and cases where the child is murdered become, what is called in criminology, “mega-homicides”. These cases can attract worldwide attention and generate vast amounts of information.

The potential for this information to overwhelm even the best-prepared investigation agency during the early hours or days of an inquiry is considerable. For this reason, there is a need for a systematic approach to core policing functions to deal with the complexity. And it is vital to have a thorough, well documented investigation strategy.


The press pack after questioning Gerry and Kate McCann in 2007. Steve Parsons/PA Wire/PA Images

These investigations also require highly skilled and experienced investigators who have the ability to make defensible decisions based upon reliable information and create investigative strategy and policy that can stand the test of hindsight. A failure to do so can have serious consequences.

Three years after Madeleine’s disappearance, in 2010, I conducted and wrote CEOP’s internal review of the Portuguese investigation, which was subsequently passed to the Home Office. The review contained observations and recommendations that, after repeated requests from the McCanns, led to the Met being tasked to establish their own investigation, Operation Grange.

The information timeline, when fully known, may offer clarity and explanations to many of the questions that have been swirling around this case since 2007. But these explanations may also raise more uncomfortable questions about the effectiveness of the initial police inquiry and the competence of the people who led it. I only hope this new information leads to some form of closure for the McCanns.

https://theconversation.com/madeleine-mccann-investigation-was-flawed-from-the-start-says-senior-detective-who-was-there-140132

Madeleine McCann cops' plan mock trial to test evidence against suspect Christian Brueckner


Brueckner was named last year as the prime suspect in the three-year-old’s 2007 disappearance from a holiday flat in Praia da Luz on the Algarve.

ByPatrick Hill
04:30, 24 OCT 2021UPDATED04:31, 24 OCT 2021

Prosecutors trying to nail the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann ’s disappearance are planning a mock trial to test their evidence.

They will stage it behind closed doors in a bid to strengthen their case against Christian Brueckner, 44. German investigators made the decision after meeting Portuguese police last week.

Brueckner was named last year as the prime suspect in the three-year-old’s 2007 disappearance from a holiday flat in Praia da Luz on the Algarve.

He is now in jail serving seven years for the rape of a 72-year-old woman in the same resort. A source said: “It will be a sort of trial run to see how strong their case is and see what more evidence might be needed to charge him. They are 100 per cent convinced but want to test arguments under cross-examination.”

It’s believed the trial “rehearsal” will take place at the investigators’ office, with lawyers split into prosecution and defence teams.

Brueckner, of Brunswick in central Germany, denies any involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance and claims police have not found a “shred of evidence”.

Madeleine, of Rothley, Leicestershire, vanished from an apartment in Praia da Luz while on holiday with mum and dad Kate and Gerry and her two-year-old twin siblings.

She was taken from her bed as her parents dined at a nearby poolside restaurant in the complex.

A Scotland Yard investigation to try to find Madeleine, who would now be 18, has cost more than £12million.

Brueckner, who is housed in a high-security prison in Oldenburg, near Bremen, has convictions for sexual assault against children and he is being investigated on suspicion of at least five other sex crimes.

He was living on the outskirts of Praia da Luz when Madeleine dis-appeared. Police first became aware of him as a suspect in 2017 but did not publicly name him until June 2020.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/madeleine-mccann-cops-plan-mock-25284742

Is a mock-up trial normal procedure?

Or a rehersal for the performance.

Because it doesn't matter what he says, they will stitch him up and find him guilty.

If it's true they are having a rehersal, it's not his answers they are concerned with.

There is no way CB can have a fair trial after all the publicity he's had, he is already guilty in the eyes of the world.

It's a foregone conclusion.

Are they testing the waters to see what they can get away with, putting the alleged evidence to him to see if he can defend himself with witnesses and alibis, and then maybe paying his witnesses a quick visit, Brian Kennedy style?

They'll be telling us next that he has confessed.

I don't think CB will play any part in the "rehersal", his solicitor has said "you are more likely to get a long cold drink in hell before CB will talk to them"

Prosecutors trying to nail the prime suspect in Madeleine McCann’s disappearance are planning a mock trial to test their evidence

  I've got Carrot Brueckner in my head now.

Crime & Investigation

Madeleine McCann: Investigating the Prime Suspect

Madeleine McCann disappeared in 2007 on a family holiday in Portugal and her case is still unsolved and is arguably the most high-profile missing persons case of the last 25 years.

Ex-detective Mark Williams-Thomas carries out the first active TV investigation into the German paedophile Christian B since he became the prime suspect in the Madeleine McCann case. The German authorities say they have evidence that Maddie is dead and that Christian B is guilty of her murder but they also say there isn't enough evidence to prosecute him. Mark already has new information - he has secured interviews with his accusers, former friends, neighbours and associates - some of whom have never spoken to the media before. As he discovers evidence that could turn the story on its head, what really happened to Madeleine McCann? This series is poised to offer the most definitive answer yet.

http://drive-tv.co.uk/programme/137/madeleine-mccann-investigating-the-prime-suspect

The oracle speaketh..

I don't know about the drive-tv programme linked above, I don't subscribe so can't watch the video. I strongly suspect it's not new, if it was it would be the talk of the day - it's not.

Williams-Thomas would have it splashed across social media - he's probably saving his new crime revelations as a stocking filler for xmas.

Hope it's not so big he gets stuck up the chimney!