Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus *UPDATE* CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

by **PeterMac** 22.06.13 7:47

Dont get too hung up on "circumstantial evidence"
Most murder trials are brought purely on the basis of circumstantial evidence.

by **PeterMac** 22.06.13 8:02

Most papers now seem to have the article, and most, if not all, are confusing the role of the CPS, and making out that they are some sort of investigative authority.
To repeat - they are NOT.

For those who live in other jurisdictions where there are Examining Magistrates, Juges d'instuccion, and so on, in England there is a clear separation of powers between the police and the CPS. The first examine, collect and collate the evidence, the second prosecute. It was not always so, the CPS was invented in 1986. Before that the Police had their own Prosecuting Solicitors and did the prosecutions themselves.

The separation of powers is jealously guarded by the CPS. The police want to take the power back to themselves, as they believe that more cases should be run.

by Me 22.06.13 8:17

PeterMac wrote:Most papers now seem to have the article, and most, if not all, are confusing the role of the CPS, and making out that they are some sort of investigative authority.
To repeat - they are NOT.

For those who live in other jurisdictions where there are Examining Magistrates, Juges d'instuccion, and so on, in England there is a clear separation of powers between the police and the CPS. The first examine, collect and collate the evidence, the second prosecute. It was not always so, the CPS was invented in 1986. Before that the Police had their own Prosecuting Solicitors and did the prosecutions themselves.

The separation of powers is jealously guarded by the CPS. The police want to take the power back to themselves, as they believe that more cases should be run.

Exactly. Why on earth would the CPS be in Portugal if the case was at the stage of wanting to interview upto 20 new suspects?

Surely that would be done first BEFORE the CPS was brought in?

And why would the CPS be going to Portugal to do that? The CPS would not be the body involved in the mechanics of transferring the case over if it was that the investgiation was to be reopened in the UK.

I repeat what i said yesterday. Despite the incorrect headlines the CPS must be in Portugal to discuss the possibility of prosecuting persons who were in the original PJ files.

The CPS won't get involved until the prospect of prosecution is there (i.e. investigative work has been done)
The CPS wouldn't go to Portugal to talk about fanciful leads which aren't in the files or related to the original Portuguese investigation.
The Portuguese have clearly stated they will reopen the case only with new evidence. If there was new evidence and new leads worthy of prosecution by the CPS then the PJ would reopen the case. They haven't which tells you everything about who they are investigating.

by **PeterMac** 22.06.13 8:22

Quite
Again for people who are not familiar with English law

The Crown Prosecution Service must first decide, after evidence is gathered by the police, whether there is sufficient evidence for the case to be prosecuted (by way of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to court or [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]). Officers provide the prosecutor with the evidence gathered and although there may be a decision not to charge at that stage, the prosecutor will assist the officer by explaining what additional work or evidence could raise the case to the required standard. If further evidence is not available, no further action may be taken against the suspect.

If there is sufficient evidence to prosecute, Crown Prosecutors must still decide whether a prosecution would be in the public interest. Paragraph 4.12 of The Code for Crown Prosecutors states: “A prosecution will usually take place unless the prosecutor is sure that there are public interest factors tending against prosecution which outweigh those tending in favour, or unless the prosecutor is satisfied that the public interest may be properly served, in the first instance, by offering the offender the opportunity to have the matter dealt with by an out-of-court disposal. The more serious the offence or the record of criminal behaviour, the more likely it is that a prosecution will be required in the public interest.” Examples of public interest factors that may be taken into account include the likelihood of the court imposing a nominal penalty or if the offence was the result of a mistake or misunderstanding.^{[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]} The CPS will only start or continue a prosecution if a case has passed both tests

by aiyoyo 22.06.13 8:44

PeterMac wrote:Most papers now seem to have the article, and most, if not all, are confusing the role of the CPS, and making out that they are some sort of investigative authority.
To repeat - they are NOT.
.

One would expect papers, of all entities, to know the difference between investigative authorities and prosecuting authority, but NO they prefer to remain either ignorant or intentionally obfuscating.

Just like they have been printing drivels like suspects and leads in the same sentence as proof Police have hope of solving this case.

by aiyoyo 22.06.13 8:47

PeterMac wrote:Dont get too hung up on "circumstantial evidence"
Most murder trials are brought purely on the basis of circumstantial evidence.

And, successfully prosecuted, as proved by Dogs evidence sans body.

by Guest 22.06.13 9:35

Not the usual from our Antonella Lazzeri - note last line no comment from the McCanns.

By GARY O’SHEA and ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Published: 8 hrs ago

CPS lawyers go to Algarve in hunt for Maddie kidnapper

BRIT prosecutors have been to Portugal in the hunt for Madeleine McCann’s kidnapper — signalling fresh momentum in the bid to solve the mystery.

Lawyers from the Crown Prosecution Service flew to the Algarve as part of Scotland Yard’s £5million review of the three-year-old’s disappearance in May 2007.
A list of around 20 suspects — including Brits and Portuguese — has been drawn up by UK detectives.
Among them are known child sex offenders in the region at the time Madeleine, from Rothley, Leics, disappeared from her parents’ rented holiday villa in Praia da Luz.
Some were looked at as part of the original inquiry by Portuguese police, and will now face a fresh grilling.
The CPS team included London’s chief crown prosecutor Alison Saunders and deputy Jenny Hopkins. They flew out at the end of April but the trip only emerged yesterday.
Det Chf Supt Hamish Campbell leads two-year-old Operation Grange.

Madeleine’s parents Kate, 45, and Gerry, 44, would not comment.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **tigger** 22.06.13 9:44

'...they flew out the end of April ..... '

A few days later we have radio silence and a photograph of the McCs looking genuinely distressed. Following on the heels of these two events a storm of publicity.
Now again radio silence. pray2

by Praiaaa 22.06.13 9:45

'No comment' - refreshing! And significant.

by jozi 22.06.13 9:50

aiyoyo wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Most papers now seem to have the article, and most, if not all, are confusing the role of the CPS, and making out that they are some sort of investigative authority.
To repeat - they are NOT.
.

One would expect papers, of all entities, to know the difference between investigative authorities and prosecuting authority, but NO they prefer to remain either ignorant or intentionally obfuscating.

Just like they have been printing drivels like suspects and leads in the same sentence as proof Police have hope of solving this case.

Perhaps its the Pink Plonker at work here ? If this visit happened in April it must surly be why the Mcs looked dreadful in May ?

by Kepharel 22.06.13 10:12

Just a short while ago everyone was discussing the extra funding being given for SY to take over the case. Now everyone seems to be thinking the CPS involvement means it's all but over. No re-interviews of TM and the TAPAS 7 so it can't be them???? Just wondering if I missed something??

by Me 22.06.13 10:21

Kepharel wrote:Just a short while ago everyone was discussing the extra funding being given for SY to take over the case. Now everyone seems to be thinking the CPS involvement means it's all but over. No re-interviews of TM and the TAPAS 7 so it can't be them???? Just wondering if I missed something??

But equally there has been no reports of interviews with dead paedos, Victoria Beckham look alikes or anyone else for that matter.

What i find interesting is the comment in the articles from the CPS is:

A CPS spokeswoman said: “Prosecutors from CPS London and investigators from the Metropolitan Police Service visited their Portuguese counterparts on April 17-18 to discuss possible next steps in relation to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. We continue to work with the police on this case.”

Again no mention of new leads or 20 suspects.

The only attributable quote from the CPS regards "next steps". Given we know the CPS prosecute evidence gathered and given we have no new evidence from Portugal the clear inference is that they are discussing next steps relating to evidence in the files only.

You can bet your bottom dollar the Team know this and whilst Gerry & Kate will be able to wheel out the big legal guns (paid for by the fund) what about the rest of the Tapas crew?

You have to ask the question why has this information been released and for what purpose?

It strikes me that this information release is designed deliberately to increase pressure on those suspects who were in the files to loosen lips (and bowels). Perhaps a pre cursor to re interviews and to bring the Tapas mob back in for questioning with them fully aware that the CPS are looking at the case, files and their statements in conjunction with the PJ and the Portuguese prosecutors.

I'm sure that will focus a few minds when they are sat in any interview room and allay any doubts about the consequences of them telling porkies!

by jozi 22.06.13 10:28

Kepharel wrote:Just a short while ago everyone was discussing the extra funding being given for SY to take over the case. Now everyone seems to be thinking the CPS involvement means it's all but over. No re-interviews of TM and the TAPAS 7 so it can't be them???? Just wondering if I missed something??

Nobody knows if they have been re- interviewed...the Police would not say if they had re-interviewed them and the mcs certainly won't breath a word about it ?

We were only told by SY there were a handful they wanted to question and re-question again......didn't say who ?

by AndyB 22.06.13 10:36

candyfloss wrote:Not the usual from our Antonella Lazzeri - note last line no comment from the McCanns.

Indeed. Is it significant that even the Sun, like all papers, is now saying "disappeared" and not "abducted"?

by Miraflores 22.06.13 10:43

But they wouldn't need to go to Portugal if it was only the McCanns and the rest of the Tapas crew they were interested in. Is Murat still out there? Is he going to be hauled in again, I wonder?

by Woofer 22.06.13 10:46

Kepharel wrote:Just a short while ago everyone was discussing the extra funding being given for SY to take over the case. Now everyone seems to be thinking the CPS involvement means it's all but over. No re-interviews of TM and the TAPAS 7 so it can't be them???? Just wondering if I missed something??

It`s not necessarily going to be made public knowledge if the T9 have been interviewed by SY. Maybe GM had been interviewed on the day of the vigil ? If the CPS went to Portugal in April to advise on further requirements to guarantee a prosecution, the interviews could have been done soon after that at beginning of May.

by Woofer 22.06.13 10:48

Miraflores wrote:But they wouldn't need to go to Portugal if it was only the McCanns and the rest of the Tapas crew they were interested in. Is Murat still out there? Is he going to be hauled in again, I wonder?

I had wondered about RM - has Max C provided some info?

Don`t know whether RM is a British subject? Or is he Portuguese?

by **PeterMac** 22.06.13 11:02

Time to say a few decades of the Rosary, I think.
Or in Kate's case
10 F*** T**** s and a Hail Kate !

confutuere masturbari, confutuere masturbari, confutuere masturbari, Ave Kate

by Guest 22.06.13 11:13

candyfloss wrote:Not the usual from our Antonella Lazzeri - note last line no comment from the McCanns.

By GARY O’SHEA and ANTONELLA LAZZERI
Published: 8 hrs ago

CPS lawyers go to Algarve in hunt for Maddie kidnapper

BRIT prosecutors have been to Portugal in the hunt for Madeleine McCann’s kidnapper — signalling fresh momentum in the bid to solve the mystery.

Lawyers from the Crown Prosecution Service flew to the Algarve as part of Scotland Yard’s £5million review of the three-year-old’s disappearance in May 2007.
A list of around 20 suspects — including Brits and Portuguese — has been drawn up by UK detectives.
Among them are known child sex offenders in the region at the time Madeleine, from Rothley, Leics, disappeared from her parents’ rented holiday villa in Praia da Luz.
Some were looked at as part of the original inquiry by Portuguese police, and will now face a fresh grilling.
The CPS team included London’s chief crown prosecutor Alison Saunders and deputy Jenny Hopkins. They flew out at the end of April but the trip only emerged yesterday.
Det Chf Supt Hamish Campbell leads two-year-old Operation Grange.

Madeleine’s parents Kate, 45, and Gerry, 44, would not comment.

Read more: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I thought Hamish Cambell had retired, who's leading OP grange now is it Andy Redwood?

This is the Mirror's udated report, no comments printed.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In the Mirror's earlier report four comments had been allowed

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by rainbow-fairy 22.06.13 11:37

Kepharel wrote:Just a short while ago everyone was discussing the extra funding being given for SY to take over the case. Now everyone seems to be thinking the CPS involvement means it's all but over. No re-interviews of TM and the TAPAS 7 so it can't be them???? Just wondering if I missed something??

I believe you have missed something, yes, as have a lot.
HOW do we know Mr and Mrs have not been re-interviewed? The rest of the Tapas crew?
They could've been, they could all be on bail for all we know (Gerry's look of defeat in May???). HOW would we know? Mr and Mrs sure wouldn't tell us!
The newspaper reports thus far have been leaked from the usual sources. Not SY imo.

Wasn't it said there was withheld info in PT? Hypothetically, say, there was considered a very good prospect of conviction with the evidence held but CPS felt more would help - that might explain their trip to Portugal.
I know very often Police will report on investigations, eg "a 26 year old is on bail pending further enquiries" HOWEVER they did say they wouldn't be providing a commentary on this case and they haven't.
IF Mr/Mrs/Tapas had been interviewed and possibly bailed, imho NO WAY would we hear until the CPS/SY etc were sure it was 'game on'
This isn't your everyday case.

Just my tuppence worth winkwink

by sallypelt 22.06.13 11:39

I think we need to remind ourselves how British law works when it comes to conviction and prosecution. Once the prosecution has gathered ALL the evidence and there's a case to answer, THE PUBLIC are no longer told what or who is involved. So, for some to say "SY say they want to interview people, but not say who they are" , all I can say, you aren't going to know who they are.

Having worked in such an environment, I can tell you know, that the Tapas 9's telephones will be buzzing from morning 'til night, from journalists from all newspapers etc. SY is probably getting calls from the same journalists, but they will be told VERY little. So what happens is, journalists take the very little evidence, such as "we want to interview some people" and they run with it, padding it out with waffle.

Another point we need to keep in mind is, the defence has to prove NOTHING in a prosecution. Everything rests with the prosecution, which has to prove, BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT, that the defendant/s is/are guilty.

Take the Jeremy Forrest case, and the abduction of a school girl. Before the prosecution got involved, the girl and Forrest were splashed ALL over the newspapers, however, once he was caught and charged, the girl's name was never mentioned again, and even through the trial it was never mentioned. So, as you can see, you are not going to be told anything by SY. All we will hear are the little snippets that SY will give to the media, and in my experience, that will be VERY little.

by Praiaaa 22.06.13 11:39

there are still anti- McCann comments visible on the previous article tho - indeed a new one added today which refers to the 'drugging of the children by the parents'

by sallypelt 22.06.13 11:44

rainbow-fairy wrote:
Kepharel wrote:Just a short while ago everyone was discussing the extra funding being given for SY to take over the case. Now everyone seems to be thinking the CPS involvement means it's all but over. No re-interviews of TM and the TAPAS 7 so it can't be them???? Just wondering if I missed something??
I believe you have missed something, yes, as have a lot.
HOW do we know Mr and Mrs have not been re-interviewed? The rest of the Tapas crew?
They could've been, they could all be on bail for all we know (Gerry's look of defeat in May???). HOW would we know? Mr and Mrs sure wouldn't tell us!
The newspaper reports thus far have been leaked from the usual sources. Not SY imo.

Wasn't it said there was withheld info in PT? Hypothetically, say, there was considered a very good prospect of conviction with the evidence held but CPS felt more would help - that might explain their trip to Portugal.
I know very often Police will report on investigations, eg "a 26 year old is on bail pending further enquiries" HOWEVER they did say they wouldn't be providing a commentary on this case and they haven't.
IF Mr/Mrs/Tapas had been interviewed and possibly bailed, imho NO WAY would we hear until the CPS/SY etc were sure it was 'game on'
This isn't your everyday case.

Just my tuppence worth

I just read your post, rainbow, after I posted mine, and you have said almost what I've said. So, I will repeat it here. Now that there appears to be a case to answer, the public are NOT going to know who or what is involved. All we are going to hear is what journalists can pick up for themselves, and that's not going to be very much. As for "why haven't they interviewed the Tapas 9", my guess is, they have. I don't have any inside knowledge on why Kate McCann was in Portugal in May, but you can bet your next week's pay cheque she wasn't there for some retail therapy

by Pershing36 22.06.13 11:50

I think if it is not a case of abduction the parents will be pulled in last with the T7 slightly before.

I am also thinking and have been for a few days why have SY upgraded from a review to an investigation?

I can only think of two reasons.

1: The PJ simply refuse to help any further of interview anymore suspects (unlikely).

2: Because SY know what needs to be investigated is here in the UK on their turf.

If it is the later then they could be out in Portugal getting every i dotted and every t crossed. Then they return to start pulling in the suspects here.

by Angelique 22.06.13 12:17

Poe wrote:

Not forgetting how many Labour bigwigs were involved in the original investigation.

If he wanted to, David Cameron could utterly destroy the Labour Party.

Late getting here - but this is an angle I completely overlooked!

by sallypelt 22.06.13 12:23

Angelique wrote:
Poe wrote:

Not forgetting how many Labour bigwigs were involved in the original investigation.

If he wanted to, David Cameron could utterly destroy the Labour Party.

Late getting here - but this is an angle I completely overlooked!

Again, it's worth mentioning that Clarence Mitchell is a Conservative, and there's talk that he's going to stand as a Conservative candidate

by Liz Eagles 22.06.13 12:30

sallypelt wrote:
Angelique wrote:
Poe wrote:

Not forgetting how many Labour bigwigs were involved in the original investigation.

If he wanted to, David Cameron could utterly destroy the Labour Party.

Late getting here - but this is an angle I completely overlooked!

Again, it's worth mentioning that Clarence Mitchell is a Conservative, and there's talk that he's going to stand as a Conservative candidate

That must be very re-assuring for Labour/Lib/UKIP. Another nail in the Tory coffin.

by Liz Eagles 22.06.13 12:52

Daily Mail accepting comments!

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by **PeterMac** 22.06.13 13:25

But the article is gibberish !

by Liz Eagles 22.06.13 13:27

PeterMac wrote:But the article is gibberish !

Yes it is PeterMac. The comments are an interesting mixed bag though.

Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

Re: Scotland Yard takes over the inquiry into Maddie's disappearance from Portuguese plus UPDATE CPS lawyers fly to Portugal

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