Re: Missing Tia Sharp

by **PeterMac** 17.08.12 17:46

AskTheDogsSandra wrote:
DLinne8 wrote:Mr Carter, who is separated from Tia's mum Natalie, last saw Tia about two years ago
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That's very sad.

But totally predictable. Families mean nothing to them, unless the TV cameras are rolling.

by Woof 17.08.12 17:58

I'm just remembering back to the TV footage of when Tia was first reported missing, they showed some aerial views. There didn't seem to be any parking outside the house. Even with a car it'd be difficult enough to move something and not be observed by someone.

by aiyoyo 17.08.12 18:38

Timeline taken from:
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Tia Sharp: Timeline
August 2: Tia visits the Co-op store in New Addington, Croydon around 4.15pm and is captured on CCTV.
August 3: Tia was said to have slept late and left her Grandmother’s house in The Lindens, New Addington around midday. The family raise the alarm around 6pm.
August 4: Police focus their efforts on CCTV as the search for Tia gets under way in earnest. Family and friends take to social media to raise the profile of their search.
August 5: Celebrities begin to join the campaign to search for Tia. Local residents and friends set up Facebook groups, print posters and fliers and take to the streets to look for signs of the missing girl. Tia’s family make a public plea for information as no confirmed sightings of her on CCTV footage after her disappearance are forthcoming.
August 6: Police release CCTV footage of Tia taken on August 2 and encourage the public to come forward with sightings of Tia.
August 7: The Sun newspaper offers a reward for information that leads to Tia being found. The police search continues, with officers scouring local woodland area, Birch Wood.
August 8: After speaking with the family for around an hour police return with a dog and search the home where Tia was last seen before she went missing.
August 9: Police search bins around Christine Sharp’s home as their search continues. A witness comes forward and says he saw Tia leaving Christine Sharp’s home around midday.
August 10: Police search Sharp’s home again and leave with evidence in bags, returning with a sniffer dog. Christine Sharp leaves with police to give further evidence and police undertake a full forensic search of the property, leading to the discovery of a body.
August 11: Police continue their search of the property at The Lindens and the surrounding area. Locals set up a tribute to Tia near her grandmother’s home as they mourn the girl. A post mortem begins. Police site ‘human error’ as the reason for the delay in finding Tia’s body despite multiple searches and they apologise to her mother.
August 12: Stuart Hazell is charged with Tia’s murder, Christine Sharp and her neighbour are bailed.
August 13: Stuart Hazell appears in Camberwell Green Magistrates Court charged with Murder. He is remanded and the case referred to the Old Bailey.
August 14: Merton Council open a serious case review into the death of Tia Sharp and police promise a full review of the investigation into Tia’s murder.
August 15: Stuart Hazell appears at the old Bailey and is remanded in custody until 21 November.
August 16: Police formally identify the body of Tia Sharp.

Note the leads:
On the 8th Police interviewed family members before returning with the dog.
On the 10th Police bagged evidence at the property then go in for full scale search for the body.

It leaves you wondering when the Police were onto the family. If from the word GO, the delay in the full search does not reflect that.
I thought Police are trained to always "assume that family members, especially last person to have seen the missing person will lie". ....

I

by jozi 17.08.12 18:39

What is wrong with these people, why has the farther not seen Tia for 2 years ? As a farther you would think he would keep in touch with his daughter even if he did not get along with the mother.The children should always come first no matter how strained and difficult the relations are with the ex.

by DLinne8 17.08.12 18:59

over the last five years police and other agencies have referred Tia Sharp's family to Merton Social Services on a number of occasions.

More than once, it has been been about issues surrounding the abuse of Class A drugs by members of Tia Sharp's family and on another occasion police referred the family to social services after they were called to some kind of disturbance at her home.

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by aiyoyo 17.08.12 19:05

You missed out this important bits from the same article.

There are two things we should stress here - firstly none of these incidents involved or related to Stuart Hazell, the man charged with murdering Tia who is the boyfriend of her grandmother.

by Guest 17.08.12 19:19

Oh goodness we have another missing 11 year old...........

4:39pm, Fri 17 Aug 2012

Police raise concern for missing 11 year old girl

Last updated Fri 17 Aug 2012

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Jade Green, aged 11 was last seen on Thursday afternoon Credit: Police

Hillingdon Police are very concerned for the safety of an 11 year old missing girl.

Jade Green, aged 11 was last seen on Thursday afternoon, on Uxbridge High Street.

She is described as being 5ft 2ins tall, with shoulder length dark brown hair and of slim build.

She was last seen wearing a green hoodie, a yellow top with 'Who?' written on the front, blue jeans and pink and white flat shoes with flowers on.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]Anyone with information about Jade's whereabouts should call Hillingdon Police Credit: Police

Detective Sergeant Glyn Jones relased this message for Jade:

"Jade, please make contact with either your family or the police. You are not in any trouble we just want to know you are safe. Your family are worried about you and if you do not want to return home then please let your family or the police know you are safe and well."

"I also appeal to the public to help us in tracing her. If anyone has seen Jade or has any information on her whereabouts they are urged to contact police."

Anyone with information should call Hillingdon Police on 0208 246 1466 or dial 101.

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by aiyoyo 17.08.12 19:50

Her case is different it would appear in that she was last seen on a street.

by aiyoyo 17.08.12 20:03

jozi wrote:What is wrong with these people, why has the farther not seen Tia for 2 years ? As a farther you would think he would keep in touch with his daughter even if he did not get along with the mother.The children should always come first no matter how strained and difficult the relations are with the ex.

That's typical of a dysfunctional family.
Sadly dysfunctional parents themselves are products of dysfunctional parents - its cascades down the generations as PM rightly pointed out.

Children from dysfunctional home in their adulthood will emulate their dysfunctional parents because they are already damaged and don't know any better. To them their sort of life, the apathy mentality, is NORMAL.

by Cristobell 17.08.12 20:39

I am actually getting a bit pee'd off with the snobbery on this thread.

It is no secret that my own background was poor and dysfunctional, yet I went on to obtain a First Class Honours Degree and taught as an English Lecturer in an inner City College and I am a published author. My brother is a successful surveyor who was featured on a television programme last year for successfully devising a water drainage system. My younger son is studying psychology at university and my older son is working towards his PhD.

Are we to be described as passing on dysfunctional behaviour and apathy?

by EJW 17.08.12 21:20

Cristobell wrote:I am actually getting a bit pee'd off with the snobbery on this thread.

It is no secret that my own background was poor and dysfunctional, yet I went on to obtain a First Class Honours Degree and taught as an English Lecturer in an inner City College and I am a published author. My brother is a successful surveyor who was featured on a television programme last year for successfully devising a water drainage system. My younger son is studying psychology at university and my older son is working towards his PhD.

Are we to be described as passing on dysfunctional behaviour and apathy?

I have to agree to a certain extent Cristobell, the tone of some of the comments on this thread does not sit well with me. There appears to be a massive over generalisation of this supposed "class" of people. I only have to go back two generations (including my own) to my family that were council house dwellers and to whom a university education would have been an impossibility, a family that was large, my own mother was one of 8, and in the main manual workers, when they did work, and a family of smallhold farmers on the other side of the family. I myself have a BA and MA as does my husband, however I am not oblivious of my background and am proud that my parents bettered themselves and allowed me the opportunities that I have had, and what turned out to be a privileged upbringing (up until a divorce!) It's very interesting to read the "inside" knowledge that some of our posters have and I am not naive, however I do feel that we are tarring people with the same brush, unfairly IMO .

This is a heinous crime and maybe poor Tia was facing a lifetime of the same circumstances as her mother and grandmother, however that was not set in stone and now sadly we will never now.

by lufc50337 17.08.12 21:23

Cristobell wrote:I am actually getting a bit pee'd off with the snobbery on this thread.

It is no secret that my own background was poor and dysfunctional, yet I went on to obtain a First Class Honours Degree and taught as an English Lecturer in an inner City College and I am a published author. My brother is a successful surveyor who was featured on a television programme last year for successfully devising a water drainage system. My younger son is studying psychology at university and my older son is working towards his PhD.

Are we to be described as passing on dysfunctional behaviour and apathy?

You and you brother broke the cycle and your kids have emulated yourself

My brother and I come from a neglected background where we were a non issue (not really my parents fault just what life threw at them)

Both of us have made our children our total priority and have raised happy confident kids because we didn't ever want our children to have

the issues we were left with

But unfortunately a higher percentage just follow on the patterns they were raised with because they don't know any different and for various

reasons don't fight to make it different

The only 2 women I personally know who have left their children were left by their mothers too (I also know people who were left

by their mothers who have made their children their priority in life)

I think what I'm trying to say is if you do have a dysfunctional background you TEND to either fight toooth and nail to provide a stable

happy life for your kids or you follow the patterns

I don't consider being poor or from a council house as a dysfunctional background just the way you are raised

by **PeterMac** 17.08.12 21:29

Perhaps some of us were already sucked into speaking the language of the liberal left, and agreeing that background determines outcome.
The alternative is to say that background does not determine, and that therefore everything that happens in these people's lives is entirely their own fault.
This would be the more muscular right wing view.

From that a number of things follow.
They are no longer deserving of help
They must work, or starve.
There is no compulsion on the rest of society to provide anything for them,
and so on.
Those who do not achieve can therefore easily be despised as feckless losers.

Intelligence mayh be the clue.

by **tigger** 17.08.12 21:37

Not related to this discussion, but this from: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Mark Williams-Thomas, a former policeman and managing director of WT Associates, a PR company specialized in child protection, media handling and advice for high profile cases,

Hmm. He's been very busy in the Tia Sharp case.

by EJW 17.08.12 21:42

For the upteenth time I have just posted a reply and it hasn't appeared!! This is driving me nuts, is there anyway to retrieve the post that wasn't posted?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 17.08.12 21:48

EJW wrote:For the upteenth time I have just posted a reply and it hasn't appeared!! This is driving me nuts, is there anyway to retrieve the post that wasn't posted?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

You will probably find it in your profile under drafts. That happens if you try to post something at the same time as someone else and you press save instead of modify.

by EJW 17.08.12 21:54

admin wrote:
EJW wrote:For the upteenth time I have just posted a reply and it hasn't appeared!! This is driving me nuts, is there anyway to retrieve the post that wasn't posted?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

You will probably find it in your profile under drafts. That happens if you try to post something at the same time as someone else and you press save instead of modify.

Thank you Admin, [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] I did try that but it seems to have disappeared into the ether! I must be doing something wrong as it happens often but there is nothing in my drafts? Never mind and sorry it should have read umpteenth rather than upteenth [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by pauline 17.08.12 22:17

I think the level of debate has improved in recent posts. It is simplistic to say that having a poor childhood (in a money sense) with less than adequate parents in indifferent and/or council housing means automatically that you will not become a responsible adult. Educational opportunities and caring teachers can be very important.

I was brought up on welfare benefits after my low paid worker father died. I was the first person in my family to get a degree. Subsequently I gained other qualifications. My children all have third level education. I live in a 'nice' area but I don't forget my background and I don't value money.

From what we know, Tia seems to have lived in a crowded housing situation (not always, as her half brothers are much younger than her) and I can understand her wanting to get out to her granny's house where there was more space. It would appear that her mother only had a 2 bedroomed flat. Why did she have 2 more children in this context? Maybe part of the reason was to get points on the housing list to get a bigger place. Who knows? Did Tia's mother or her new partner work? I don't know. My now middle class values tell me they should have waited to have more children until they could afford to rent or buy a bigger place. But I feel guilty about thinking this.

by EJW 17.08.12 22:35

pauline wrote:I think the level of debate has improved in recent posts. It is simplistic to say that having a poor childhood (in a money sense) with less than adequate parents in indifferent and/or council housing means automatically that you will not become a responsible adult. Educational opportunities and caring teachers can be very important.

I was brought up on welfare benefits after my low paid worker father died. I was the first person in my family to get a degree. Subsequently I gained other qualifications. My children all have third level education. I live in a 'nice' area but I don't forget my background and I don't value money.

From what we know, Tia seems to have lived in a crowded housing situation (not always, as her half brothers are much younger than her) and I can understand her wanting to get out to her granny's house where there was more space. It would appear that her mother only had a 2 bedroomed flat. Why did she have 2 more children in this context? Maybe part of the reason was to get points on the housing list to get a bigger place. Who knows? Did Tia's mother or her new partner work? I don't know. My now middle class values tell me they should have waited to have more children until they could afford to rent or buy a bigger place. But I feel guilty about thinking this.

That's an interesting post Pauline, I have also felt guilty about some of the thoughts I have had about this case. As I mentioned before, we have no way of knowing how poor Tia's life would pan out, she may have become sucked into this cycle of deprivation or Tia may have wanted to do better than her own parents, as is natural and give herself a better life. It's almost a "toss the coin" situation, carry on as before or buck the trend. It's anyone's guess, but ultimately this little girl has had that opportunity denied her. God bless you Tia for all that you could have become, as is every childs right.

by lufc50337 17.08.12 22:38

I agree with you Pauline, I find it irresponsible to purposefully have more children when you can't support the

ones you already have

It's different if you're left in a situation with children that you can't support but to have children knowing

you'll be expecting the tax payers to provide for them is wrong to me

There is an underclass who live on the dole and have no intention of doing otherwise living along side

decent hard working people on council estates

by Gillyspot 17.08.12 22:44

Sally where I agree that it is irresponsible and selfish to have children that you cannot afford to support yourself and indeed I know very well some of those you are talking about but not all folk who are poor and on the dole are like this at all.

I have friends from a "sink" estate who are trying their best to get a job & are doing an awesome job with their lovely children too.

Remember on this thread some may be giving the appearance of "people" think that certain middle class Drs couldn't have done it.

Sorry rant over. friends

by aiyoyo 17.08.12 22:45

Oh dear,. It was nothing personal nor snobbery, and not meant to offend anyone.

It's a fact dysfunctional family often cascades and breaking that effect is exception, not the norm.
It takes but one generation to rise above that and to set good examples for ensuing generations to emulate.

Dysfunctional family comes in many forms, and depending on the degree of severity, it can and does affect people in that environment differently.
The more severe the dysfunction the greater the difficulty for children in those circumstances to break free away from that, hence the sink estates that are still prevalent in the country. Otherwise why are there still sink estates, where and how they become sink estates, and who made them that way?

Being poor or living in council estate is not a problem - those are not contributory factors to a dysfunctional family.
Rather it's about people's mentality and psychology that are contributory factors, and not about how much money one has or has not.
Invariably it's about people who refused to take responsibility for their life or be accountable to themselves, their family, and by extension to the society.

It's also a fact people from poor background (and sometimes also from a certain kind of dysfunctional family) can and do change their life and environment if they consciously choose to be responsible and accountable for their own life by making things happened for them through self achievement by conscientious and diligent efforts and in so doing they improve the quality of their life all round for themselves, their family a generation up (their parents) and understandably a generation down (their children), the latter hence again the cascading effect. It's also about IQs level and being willing to be educated and taught.

Apathy or empathy is all about people's mentality and attitude, while neither is particularly specific to dysfunctional families, the former is more common in severely dysfunctional families than not.

In the case of Tia Sharp, which is the discussion at hand, I am talking about "dysfunctional" in her context.
We know a little bit about her dysfunctional background.
A dad who has last seen his young daughter two years ago certainly is not demonstration of enough care for her.
If that's not apathy I don't know what is since he must have know of her situation.
If he didn't know about her transient accommodation shuttling between mum and grandma, and in one of them she didn't even have a room and had to sleep on settee, then that is even worst apathy. Which then begs the question did he know about her daily routine, her friends, her life, her schools, her joy, her sorrow, her problems, her hobby, her dreams, her favourite food, favorite movies, so on and so forth.

Was she precious to him then if she was so precious to him now.-.that's the saddest part for her.

I

by Gillyspot 17.08.12 22:48

aiyoyo wrote:Oh dear,. It was nothing person nor snobbery, and not meant to offend anyone.

In the case of Tia Sharp, which is the discussion at hand, I am talking about "dysfunctional" in her context.
We know a little bit about her dysfunctional background.
A dad who has last seen his young daughter two years ago certainly is not demonstration of enough care for her.
If that's not apathy I don't know what is since he must have know of her situation.
If he didn't know about her transient accommodation shuttling between mum and grandma, and in one of them she didn't even have a room and had to sleep on settee, then that is even worst apathy. Which then begs the question did he know about her daily routine, her friends, her life, her schools, her joy, her sorrow, her problems, her hobby, her dreams, her favourite food, favorite movies, so on and so forth.

Was she precious to him then if she was so precious to him now.-.that's the saddest part for her.

I

Very well put. What a short sad life Tia must have had. sad

I hope that this review makes sure no other child is abandoned by the authorities (police/social services/school) as Tia seems to have been.

by Cristobell 17.08.12 22:56

Many key workers are on a minimum wage, unable to afford to their own properties and dependent on social housing. This does not make them despised under achievers.

by aiyoyo 17.08.12 22:57

Gillyspot wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:Oh dear,. It was nothing person nor snobbery, and not meant to offend anyone.

In the case of Tia Sharp, which is the discussion at hand, I am talking about "dysfunctional" in her context.
We know a little bit about her dysfunctional background.
A dad who has last seen his young daughter two years ago certainly is not demonstration of enough care for her.
If that's not apathy I don't know what is since he must have know of her situation.
If he didn't know about her transient accommodation shuttling between mum and grandma, and in one of them she didn't even have a room and had to sleep on settee, then that is even worst apathy. Which then begs the question did he know about her daily routine, her friends, her life, her schools, her joy, her sorrow, her problems, her hobby, her dreams, her favourite food, favorite movies, so on and so forth.

Was she precious to him then if she was so precious to him now.-.that's the saddest part for her.

I

Very well put. What a short sad life Tia must have had.

I hope that this review makes sure no other child is abandoned by the authorities (police/social services/school) as Tia seems to have been.

Sorry Gillyspot, just editing my post you quoted as I noticed my error - I meant to say "nothing personal". and not "nothing person".

by Guest 17.08.12 23:05

aiyoyo wrote: [...]
A dad who has last seen his young daughter two years ago certainly is not demonstration of enough care for her.
If that's not apathy I don't know what is since he must have know of her situation.
If he didn't know about her transient accommodation shuttling between mum and grandma, and in one of them she didn't even have a room and had to sleep on settee, then that is even worst apathy. Which then begs the question did he know about her daily routine, her friends, her life, her schools, her joy, her sorrow, her problems, her hobby, her dreams, her favourite food, favorite movies, so on and so forth.

Was she precious to him then if she was so precious to him now.-.that's the saddest part for her.
***
Very sad. IMO He's just another one going for his 15 minutes of fame ...

I

by EJW 17.08.12 23:08

Even my complaint about not being able to post hasn't been posted!! What is going on? It's not in drafts and it's not on the site!

by Gillyspot 17.08.12 23:08

EJW wrote:For the upteenth time I have just posted a reply and it hasn't appeared!! This is driving me nuts, is there anyway to retrieve the post that wasn't posted?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It is here EJW.

by EJW 17.08.12 23:15

Gillyspot wrote:
EJW wrote:For the upteenth time I have just posted a reply and it hasn't appeared!! This is driving me nuts, is there anyway to retrieve the post that wasn't posted?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It is here EJW.

Where is it Gillyspot? I must be doing something wrong as I can't see anything [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by lufc50337 17.08.12 23:17

Gillyspot - I don't think everybody on the dole is a waster I know a lot of people end up in that situation for reasons out of their control and try their hardest but there are a lot who have no intention of getting a job and have the mentality of being entitled to be supported by the state, I have lived on an estate amongst it all and there are a lot of good things about living on an estate too

The amount of times I have heard 'I don't want a job because I'm no better off than I am on the dole' - It really winds me up, the welfare state

should be a safety net for the vulnerable in society not a lifestyle choice

Also as I have already stated I don't consider being poor or living in a council house as being dysfunctional, the minimum wage is not enough for people to support themselves on in a lot of cases and people on the minimum wage or just above are obviously wanting to work and support themselves

I feel intentionally having kids while on the dole with no intention of working and expecting tax payers to support you as setting an example of irresponsibilty,

if kids see you trying to find work they will follow that example too

Aiyoyo - You put it much more eloquently what I have been trying to say

Dysfunctional families cover all classes - neglect, physical abuse, mental abuse & sexual abuse are classless

But however unpopular this view is I have found the lack of work ethic to be predominantly an estate problem