Re: ***LIVE*** Discussion and comments thread BBC Panorama tonight 25th April 7.30pm

[Guest]

Did I hear right that News International paid £1 million pounds into the fund?

I thought I heard that too!

I think that is what Bilton said a reported 1 million pounds. Weren't we told it was £200,000 originally?

[HiDeHo]

Recorded, converted and just putting the hundreds of clips together...

Trouble is, I am held up!...All my friends/family here in Canada are texting me to tell me shes alive! lol

Won't be long.

[Guest]

From Pat Brown......


PAT BROWN‏@ProfilerPatBReply


Doubts about Madeleine" Profiler Pat Brown's CTV interview on the UK investigation. (scroll down left side). #mccann [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[Guest]

Why was the Jane Tanner sighting mentioned, but the important Smith sighting omitted?

[Upsy Daisy]

Why was the Jane Tanner sighting mentioned, but the important Smith sighting omitted?

..

yes candyfloss, I was shouting at the TV when they got off the easyjet flight 'right so, where's mention of the smith sighting..about now please...' and of course, nothing!

Poor Goncalo, no mention of his family and life being totally torn apart, his years of work sent down the pan, the McScams sueing everyone left right and centre and spending money out of the fund on this that and the other and very little on searching! Petermac is right though, at least SOME attention was drawn to some info that has not necessarily been out there. Even an idiot can surely put two and two together and realise that there has got to be something not right about this case and try to research more. However, Juliet I think said, that on the whole, people will just continue to fall for the 'bad portuguese cops' victimising the poor McCanns with their bungled investigation without ever taking the time to try to get inside the info that is out there and have a proper think about it. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[WOODWARD]

Fawned over by everyone ,including all the participants at Leveson , terminally lazy MP,s on the CMS select committee and spoken to in a reverent whisper by sofa sitting daytime TV presenters. Declared innocent and supported by three Prime Ministers ,every Home Secretary since Jackie Smith and every newspaper editor in the land and yet they still feel the need for another bucket of whitewash. All I see is fear of discovery and final confirmation that there is a much bigger secret than one tragic accident befalling one poor little girl amongst a group of cruelly neglected children. This extraordinary effort involving a state sponsored TV channels erstwhile flagship documentary programme looks desperate because its such a clumsy and obvious attempt to stitch -up Portugal and its police force. Somebody is panicking and whoever it is just made a massive error. IMO

[russiandoll]

from French newspaper Le Nouvel Observateur


Mes collègues (policiers) au Portugal veulent rouvrir l'affaire", affirme Andy Redwood. Mais il s'agit d'une décision appartenant aux autorités judiciaires portugaises, ajoute l'enquêteur britannique. Il précise que les 37 policiers britanniques chargés de réexaminer les éléments de l'enquête n'ont pour l'instant accompli qu'un quart de leur travail. Les enquêteurs ont environ 100.000 pages de documents à examiner, certains devant encore être traduits, ce qui pourrait encore prendre du temps.
quick translation and interesting..
My police colleagues in Portugal want to reopen the case " affirmed AR. But it is a decision for the Portuguese judicial authorities, added the British investigator. He stressed that the 37 officers in Britain tasked with reexamining the elements of the investigation have currently only done 25% of their work. The investigators have approx 100,000 pages of documents to examine, some of which are yet to be translated, which could take some time.

[Guest]

I agree Woodward, there does appear to be panic. Moving the programme forward, these sudden interviews and articles, Could it be that the PJ who have been doing there own secret investigation for a year have uncovered more evidence, and are about to announce it, and could all this be trying to pre-empt it with the usual spin.

[auntiefi]

I havent watched yet as I'm in Scotland, but sounds like a pile of nonsence (polite version of what I want to say). Of course its the UK media so they are bound to have an airy fairy non factual editing of material - BUT surely in things like Amaral and Tony's hearings the EVIDENCE is there for all to see and cannot be denied? of am I just deluded thinking that? sorry bit off topic.

[Cristobell]

Petermac, there is nothing good to be taken from this terrible, propaganda-laden programme.

All anyone who hasn't studied the Mcanns will think is: "Yeah, rotten Portuguese police. They messed up from the start...what a disgrace (Alan Johnson says so). See, Amaral has made loads of money, and even that weirdo Murat claims Amaral didn't care about the truth."

Nothing about the Tapas mob, who tried to finger Amaral as kidnapper/murderer. But then, Murat has been paid off.

And maybe Panorama edited Sandra F badly, but even she seemed to be slagging off the Portuguese and the Portuguese police. Plus there was Isabel Duarte suffering for her art as all her friends "thought the McCanns had killed their daughter and got rid of her corpse." As if that thought was wildly far-fetched...

This was an incredibly cynical programme: I can imagine Cameron: "The plebs are getting pissed off about millions being spent on the McCann case, while we don't seem to care about Ben Needham (or any other missing child including that little girl in the German supermarket).

"Someone throw them a bone. Get that useless Bilton to slag off the Portuguese and get them riled up against Johnny Foreigner. That will shut them up while we spend a bit more whitewashing the Mccanns."

Agree the programme came across as TM propaganda, but have much faith in Petermac! Apart from the points he has highlighted, it may have an incendiary effect. I am guessing here, but would imagine that Portugal has inerited a pretty macho culture - are they likely to kowtow to SY? This case has the potential to start up a diplomatic incident.

In addition, GA won the last libel trial, and it looked to me as though support for him was growing. He had a number of highly credible witnesses supporting his theory. From an empirical perspective, at this stage of the entire farce, support for him should have dropped off, friends should be disassociating themselves, not coming forward to give evidence. Lets not forget that the detective who took over from GA came to the same conclusions.

[friedtomatoes]

Fawned over by everyone ,including all the participants at Leveson , terminally lazy MP,s on the CMS select committee and spoken to in a reverent whisper by sofa sitting daytime TV presenters. Declared innocent and supported by three Prime Ministers ,every Home Secretary since Jackie Smith and every newspaper editor in the land and yet they still feel the need for another bucket of whitewash. All I see is fear of discovery and final confirmation that there is a much bigger secret than one tragic accident befalling one poor little girl amongst a group of cruelly neglected children. This extraordinary effort involving a state sponsored TV channels erstwhile flagship documentary programme looks desperate because its such a clumsy and obvious attempt to stitch -up Portugal and its police force. Somebody is panicking and whoever it is just made a massive error. IMO

well said, may they totally
fail

[Guest]

Suspects. Not 'cooperating witnesses'.
This will stick. Forever. Worldwide.

Thanks to the good old Beeb.

So: roll up your sleeves, gang, and take them to court.

Carter Ruck can surely advise you?

[Newintown]

I agree Woodward, there does appear to be panic. Moving the programme forward, these sudden interviews and articles, Could it be that the PJ who have been doing there own secret investigation for a year have uncovered more evidence, and are about to announce it, and could all this be trying to pre-empt it with the usual spin.

Even moving the programme from 8.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. seemed strange (I'm sure it was shown as 8.30 p.m. when I checked my TV this morning). It seems as if they were trying to beat a deadline of some sort and were pushed into putting the programme on before other evidence came out.

[Cristobell]

Another point that occurs to me, is the fact that many, many, lawyers will have gone through this programme with a fine toothcomb. The McCanns are very litigious, and may have negotiated air time, bias time, etc, a sort of quid pro quo, I would also imagine the BBC would have needed their approval to screen it.

[Guest]

They did at least put up details of the intercalary report from Inspector Tavares de Almeida I think which I was shocked to see...........
I think it was that anyway. Will have to check when HdeH posts video.

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[Zozo]

On the other hand ...
for at least the first half of the programme
Dog video... shown to the world
interim report detailing M. Dead in the apartment, Simulation of abduction, Parents involved ... shown to the world
Portuguese Police opinion that she is dead ... shown to the world
Portuguese Public opinion that she is dead ... shown to the world
Murat set up ... shown to the world
Political interference... shown to the world
Murdoch's interference....shown to the world

And the reporter himself used the M word "MYSTERY" (C-R take note) direct to Redwood, who did not disagree. Also to TB, please note. Mystery is NOT libellous.

So far as I can remember, without replaying it, Redwood did not say he believed she was alive. (subject to correction on that one, obviously )
For me as an ex- .... he really had no choice but to make fairly banal and anodyne statements, and all in all did fairly well in saying nothing much.
Which is not only what I expected, but what I hoped !

Shall re-watch and make more notes. More later.

Oh I agree completely, it was far more exposing and explicit than I was expecting, hopeful many more sceptics out there now [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I agree with you two. I am optimistic [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I'm sorry to say that for me i don't agree with you. Because the points you are quoting above, most of them were known in public. And the way it was shown was kind brush over those point and after to put all the failure and the blame to the portuguese police.
Even the way they have introduced Amaral comments its revealing itself. just to put all the failure of investigations in the portuguese side. But no way, they 've talked about the inconsistencies in the T9 statements or many other crucial evidences in the case pointing to the mccanns or their lack of coperation.
For me, this program it was very well orchestrated to manipulate the british public opinions about this case, to push even more the blame to the portuguese police and to make it a gift to the Mccanns especial for this soon 5th anniversairy of the disappearance of their daughter.

As i said before, i think this all circus seems to prepare the public opinion what is coming soon!!!!

[Guest]

Here's the BBC i-player link for those in the U K.

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I think that it will be available from tomorrow - it isn't at the moment.

[HiDeHo]

[quote="candyfloss"]They did at least put up details of the intercalary report from Inspector Tavares de Almeida I think which I was shocked to see...........
I think it was that anyway. Will have to check when HdeH posts video.

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57 mins left for downloading then prob another half hour or more to upload to Youtube..but...its coming along![You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Lets not forget...the power of Youtube...(and subsequently Twitter)

Snippets that need addressing...can be addressed in a 'McMinute' video![You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

[Guest]

I can imagine Mr Amaral would never have appeared for the programme if he knew he was going to be portrayed in the way he was. I'm sure he gave a much longer interview putting across some good points, and admitting some mistakes, and most of it was probably on the cutting room floor. He would have been better to have declined the invitation to appear, he must have known they would do a hatchet job on him. From what they tried to portray, he made money out of a missing child, (£300,000), and he made mistakes,

[russiandoll]

reports Sky News 2 tabloid front pages....... maddie she is alive.

Just to prove what a load of tripe the media are. How can the Yard possibly know that and if they do when are they going to bring her home? SY have said no such thing. French paper I quoted earlier quotes Redwood saying there is a shed load of docs still needing translation!
One journo saying that there is rivalry between British and Portuguese police.
Other criticising the Express rather than other tabloid for that headline as that paper should know better due to Leveson.

One thing puzzling me...it was not in Panorama but have seen a video clip where Redwood talks of stranger abduction.
Now why was that not included in Panorama?

[Guest]

reports Sky News 2 tabloid front pages....... maddie she is alive.

Just to prove what a load of tripe the media are. How can the Yard possibly know that and if they do when are they going to bring her home? SY have said no such thing. French paper I quoted earlier quotes Redwood saying there is a shed load of docs still needing translation!
One journo saying that there is rivalry between British and Portuguese police.
Other criticising the Express rather than other tabloid for that headline as that paper should know better due to Leveson.

One thing puzzling me...it was not in Panorama but have seen a video clip where Redwood talks of stranger abduction.
Now why was that not included in Panorama?

I think that was the ITV interview made later than the Panorama programme. Every interview that appears, he seems to be adding more and more....... Yet they talked about keeping this review under wraps.

[Zozo]

I can imagine Mr Amaral would never have appeared for the programme if he knew he was going to be portrayed in the way he was. I'm sure he gave a much longer interview putting across some good points, and admitting some mistakes, and most of it was probably on the cutting room floor. He would have been better to have declined the invitation to appear, he must have known they would do a hatchet job on him. From what they tried to portray, he made money out of a missing child, (£300,000), and he made mistakes,

Totally agree with you that "Amaral must have known better...", because its not the first time they try to exploite his sayings in negatif way, therefore using them against him.

[juliet]

The whole thing was a farce. But most people will feel sure that it just reinforces the old propaganda that the Portuguese are useless bunglers and the McCanns are innocent of the death/disappearance of their child.

It was all too obvious when Bilton said: "The dogs found DNA in the apartment and car...which led to the parents named as suspects."

He obviously said what he was told - "Look, you know and I know the dogs found the scent of a dead body and spots of blood. But just say it was DNA because most of the plebs won't know any better, OK?"

And dear old Bilton said: "Yes, whatever you say, sir. Just as long as I get a few jobs away from the BBC North West graveyard."

What is loathsome about Bilton is he did the Panorama programme five years ago.

He must have known more than most about the lies of the parents and why their friends ran in circles to keep them sweet.

[russiandoll]

dont know where to post this.....

from Guardian newspaper Madeleine McCann could be living with abductor, says Scotland Yard

Yard releases image of how Madeleine may look five years on and asks Portuguese police to reopen inquiry


Sandra Laville, crime correspondent
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 25 April 2012 19.19 BST
Article history

Madeleine McCann pictured before her disappearance in May 2007, and the computer-generated image of how she might look now, aged nearly nine. Scotland Yard says she could be living with her abductor. Photograph: Teri Blythe/Met Police/PA
Scotland Yard detectives released a picture of what Madeleine McCann may look like today as they said they had uncovered new information to suggest she could be alive and living with her abductor.

The senior officer leading an investigative review into the disappearance of Madeleine five years ago is calling on Portuguese police to reopen their inquiry into the case.

Releasing an age-enhanced image of Madeleine – as she nears her ninth birthday on 12 May – Detective Chief Inspector Andy Redwood, of Scotland Yard's homicide and serious crime command, said: "We genuinely believe there's a possibility that she is alive. I want to make a direct appeal. If you know where Madeleine McCann is or if you have any direct information or evidence about what happened to her, then please make contact."

Redwood and his 37-strong team have identified 195 missed investigative opportunities in the 40,000 pieces of evidence they have examined from the Portuguese inquiry, the family's home force in Leicestershire, and the information gleaned by a team of private detectives hired by the McCann family since Madeleine went missing, aged three, from the resort of Praia de Luz on 3 May 2007.

"We are in a unique position seeking to draw together the three key strands of information about her disappearance," said Redwood.

He unequivocally dismissed the conspiracy theory – promoted by the original Portuguese lead detective Goncalo Amaral – that Madeleine's parents had anything to do with her disappearance.

He said detectives believe Madeleine was abducted in "a criminal act by a stranger".

Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, worked closely with the Met to produce the new image of their daughter.

"Kate says she can see Madeleine's brother and sister Sean and Amelie in it as well as something of herself," said the family's spokesman, Clarence Mitchell. She and Gerry feel very positive and they hope it leads to the breakthrough they have been waiting for."

Redwood's team is sifting page by page through 100,000 documents within the 40,000 pieces of evidence, and are a quarter of the way through the exercise. They are working closely with a team of Portuguese detectives and liaising with law enforcement agencies across Europe and the world when necessary.

They are developing what they believe is "genuinely new information" in the hunt for the child. It is understood, though, that this is not based on any new possible sightings. The team is also pursuing the line of inquiry that after five years Madeleine might be dead.

It is understood that key areas being investigated by Scotland Yard – which the Portuguese police failed to pursue – include analysis of a huge amount of mobile phone cell site evidence that was gathered but never analysed. That evidence could help to trace any suspects who were around the resort.

They are also attempting for the first time to contact all the holidaymakers who were staying around the area of the Mark Warner Ocean club complex between 28 April and 3 May 2007, when Madeleine disappeared from her room while her parents were eating dinner with friends at a nearby tapas bar.

Officers are also focusing on any men in the area with criminal convictions that might indicate they are a danger to children, and investigating the backgrounds of resort staff, including examining whether any had suffered the loss of a child.

Commander Simon Foy, Scotland Yard's head of homicide command, said they would not stop until they discovered what had happened to Madeleine. The review inquiry – which has cost £2m to date – began after the McCanns appealed last year to David Cameron for Scotland Yard to investigate the case.

There are examples of children who have been abducted only to be found alive years later: Jaycee Lee Dugard was found alive 18 years after being snatched at the age of 11 from a bus stop in California; the Austrian schoolgirl Natascha Kampusch was found in 2006, eight years after being abducted aged 10; and Shawn Hornbeck, who disappeared aged 12 in 2002, was found four years later.

The decision on whether to reopen the inquiry in Portugal is in the hands of the country's attorney general. He has said he will only reopen the investigation if "new, serious and relevant evidence emerges". He was not available for comment.

Redwood said the police review team in Portugal were keen for this to happen. "[They] want to reopen the case … They are a new group of investigators and they are completely engaged and totally committed."

Jim Gamble, former head of the UK's Child Exploitation and Online Protection unit, said the hunt for Madeleine had now been reignited. "The person who's done it knows they have done it," said Gamble. "They will be paranoid, and it is likely that someone close to them will see that paranoia, or that as the pressure builds someone close to them who knows they have done it, and who is no longer a friend, might come forward.

"One thing is sure: the person who did this will be watching and listening."

[Guest]

As I just said earlier, a little bit more in every interview,

Scotland Yard detectives released a picture of what Madeleine McCann may look like today as they said they had uncovered new information to suggest she could be alive and living with her abductor.

If they know she is alive and living with an abductor, from new evidence, why haven't they rescued her? And should they be telling the whole world about this, because if it is correct, surely the abductor will panic and run or even harm her.

[Guest]

Jim Gamble, former head of the UK's Child Exploitation and Online Protection unit, said the hunt for Madeleine had now been reignited. "The person who's done it knows they have done it," said Gamble. "They will be paranoid, and it is likely that someone close to them will see that paranoia, or that as the pressure builds someone close to them who knows they have done it, and who is no longer a friend, might come forward.

"One thing is sure: the person who did this will be watching and listening."

Paranoid, watching and listening, talk about putting a child in danger!!!

[russiandoll]

sorry candyfloss I posted the entire article as you were posting yours!
what on earth is going on........they are discussing operational issues and conclusions with thousands of pages of untranslated files to get through. nailing their colours to the mast here......I feel so confused now about what is happening.
Surely the PJ would have done this work in the early stages? Are the Met implying that they have work to do that was not done years ago...all the basics?

[Guest]

sorry candyfloss I posted the entire article as you were posting yours!
what on earth is going on........they are discussing operational issues and conclusions with thousands of pages of untranslated files to get through. nailing their colours to the mast here......I feel so confused now about what is happening.
Surely the PJ would have done this work in the early stages? Are the Met implying that they have work to do that was not done years ago...all the basics?

Nothing to be sorry for russiandoll, I didn't post the article, I was just quoting bits from yours Thank you for posting it. Giving far too much information out now imo, it is simply not professional, and if Madeleine is out there, could be putting her in danger.

[uppatoffee]

Jim Gamble, former head of the UK's Child Exploitation and Online Protection unit, said the hunt for Madeleine had now been reignited. "The person who's done it knows they have done it," said Gamble. "They will be paranoid, and it is likely that someone close to them will see that paranoia, or that as the pressure builds someone close to them who knows they have done it, and who is no longer a friend, might come forward.

"One thing is sure: the person who did this will be watching and listening."

Paranoid, watching and listening, talk about putting a child in danger!!!

I cannot believe that if SY seriously believe that Madeleine is alive then they would have created such a furore by taking part in this show, as is someone had taken her they would certainly be panicking now. People who panic do irrational things. Not good.

However, if they are wanting to make some people relax more, perhaps so they let their guard down, then this is a way to go about it. I think that there are a number of reasons to feel positive about tonight's programme. In the minds of a largely supportive British public it must have raised alarm bells. There must be some reason why Portuguese public opinion is so convinced the McCanns are guilty. Showing the dogs alerting - I imagine lots of people never knew anything about the cadaver dogs, so will lead to more Internet searches to find out more. I also agree that Redwood gave nothing away. Even Bilton standing outside the apartment asked what really happened, makes people think there is more to it...

Yes there was always going to be a great deal of support in this programme for the McCanns, but I did not think they got it all their own way. I am still hopeful. I was also surprised didn't make an appearance!

[juliet]

I feel sick that the British establishment doesn't even bother to cover up corruption any more.


But useful, ambitious idiots like Richard Bilton, Lorraine Kelly, Fiona Phillips etc are used to keep convincing the public to support the "poor parents".

It is sickening that Bilton now corrupts the facts so that what the expert dogs found becomes, in his weasel lying words, not "scent of a dead body" but the meaningless term "DNA".

The BBC obviously told him waht to say, and he jumped...


Have deleted one sentence Juliet, which you stated as fact, and we need to be cautious in what we say and how we say it.