Re: The latest McCann suspect: Scotland Yard has revealed vital new information about a suspect wanted in connection with the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.

by Roidininki 16.06.20 7:27

Madeleine McCann: Prosecutor's letter to parents says there is 'concrete evidence' she is dead
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by talby66 16.06.20 7:52

Roidininki wrote:Madeleine McCann: Prosecutor's letter to parents says there is 'concrete evidence' she is dead
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What sort of prosecutor writes to the parents and says that? You'd think he would go and visit them along with local police and tell them what he had but stress they shouldn't mention it (okay I know in their case it would be all over the press afterwards). What is concrete evidence that isn't forensic? photos, video? How and when did they get this evidence because only a few days ago they were conceding that she could be alive.

I'd like to think it was being used to flush them out but if so it seems very crude and if CB is not involved they will know that the police don't have anything.

by Guest 16.06.20 7:59

Did he say "concrete evidence" in english?

Did he say it at all?

by talby66 16.06.20 8:06

BlueBag wrote:Did he say "concrete evidence" in english?

Did he say it at all?

Fair point, I haven't seen the letter in either English or German, the article is even more bizarre since at one point it says "and it wasn't clear if they had yet received the prosecutor's letter". Fancy finding out your daughter is dead by reading sky news, etc.

It also quotes the daily mail saying "The Daily Mail reported the prosecutor said he hadn't even shared key evidence with Scotland Yard and the Portuguese police who are also investigating the case". They're certainly keeping the "concrete evidence" very close to their chests.

by Flossy 16.06.20 8:28

talby66 wrote:
BlueBag wrote:Did he say "concrete evidence" in english?

Did he say it at all?
Fair point, I haven't seen the letter in either English or German, the article is even more bizarre since at one point it says "and it wasn't clear if they had yet received the prosecutor's letter". Fancy finding out your daughter is dead by reading sky news, etc.

It also quotes the daily mail saying "The Daily Mail reported the prosecutor said he hadn't even shared key evidence with Scotland Yard and the Portuguese police who are also investigating the case". They're certainly keeping the "concrete evidence" very close to their chests.

The reporting of this is all off. At the top of the article it states that evidence has not been shared and then further down it mentions one key piece of evidence that they have relating to MM death and says it has been shared with Portuguese police.

by Doug D 16.06.20 8:34

Pat Brown blog:

MONDAY, JUNE 15, 2020

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I am sure there isn’t. I am sure there is [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and nothing else of any physical sort. I am sure there are no photos of her dead body or articles of her clothing in Christian Brückner secret hiding place. Because when the police say there is not forensic evidence that she is dead but they have other evidence, not evidence that is good enough to go to court with, but which only “indicates” she is dead, this means they haven’t got shit.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by theomega 16.06.20 8:37

German newspapers do not mention Mr. Wolters writing a letter to the parents. The only German newspaper saying that is quoting "the Sun" talking to Mr. Wolters. Nowhere else there is reference of a letter or Mr. Wolters talking publicly. Why would he talk to the Sun exclusively?! huh

by theomega 16.06.20 9:02

Further to show German newspapers are now just rehashing English newspapers of what Mr Wolters has or has not said..... Nowhere any direct report from German Police...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

As the British newspaper Sun further reports, the investigators from Portugal had classified this reference as "very important". As the British newspaper reports further, the McCann family's lawyer should be informed about the developments in a few days. It is unclear whether the public prosecutor in Germany actually has evidence of the girl's death or whether this is just speculation by the British press.

Maddie McCann Misses: Is The Little Girl Dead?

Update of June 15, 2020, 9.24 a.m. Just last week, Hans Wolters from the Braunschweig public prosecutor's office said in a press conference that he was sure that Maddie McCann was dead. All that was missing was the last proof - her body. Now the U-turn. In an interview he gave to the English daily [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], Wolters says there is no forensic evidence that Maddie is dead. "It was just my personal opinion and speculation." Wolters went on to say: "Because there is no forensic evidence, there is still a little bit of hope."

by sallypelt 16.06.20 9:11

SKY News article:

"Mr Wolters revealed that he had sent the letter in an interview with British newspaper reporters in Braunschweig, where he is leading the investigation".

I send letters in an envelope. Is this new technology, to send them in an interview?

They just can't get the staff.

Mr Wolters, revealed in an interview ... that he had sent a letter...

Sky News, just put my cheque in the post swing

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **sharonl** 16.06.20 9:28

BlueBag wrote:Did he say "concrete evidence" in english?

Did he say it at all?

Does he exist?

Is he a genuine investigator or one that the MCanns bought?

Is he still employed or is he one of these retired officers?

by theomega 16.06.20 9:39

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Phone and contact details of Mr. Wolters are public

by **sharonl** 16.06.20 9:41

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Here he is

by **PeterMac** 16.06.20 9:55

So there is concrete evidence, and
there is no concrete evidence.
At the same time.

I suppose it may depend on whether you consider that the alerts and to, and traces of, human cadaverine and blood count as concrete evidence of Madeleine's death.

Strictly they do not. They only show that a dead body lay behind the sofa, and that the scent was traced to the shelf in the bedroom and to the car and clothing and cuddle cat and. . . .

It shows that SOMEBODY is dead.
It is an assumption, albeit based on logic and elimination of all the other possibilities, that it was Madeleine.

Perhaps that is what he means.

by **sandancer** 16.06.20 10:04

" Concrete evidence " another " stone unturned " and The Sun , Mail , Sky news etc slithered out from underneath leaving their slimy trail behind to fill the pages / airwaves for the gullible .

by sallypelt 16.06.20 10:47

Madeleine McCann: Police say other people will have 'concrete knowledge' of her disappearance. The BKA appeal said: "There is reason to assume that there are other persons, apart from the suspect, who have concrete knowledge of the course of the crime and maybe also of the place where the body was left."

by cookiemuncher 16.06.20 11:13

sallypelt wrote:Madeleine McCann: Police say other people will have 'concrete knowledge' of her disappearance. The BKA appeal said: "There is reason to assume that there are other persons, apart from the suspect, who have concrete knowledge of the course of the crime and maybe also of the place where the body was left."

Oooh, the plot thickens.

It's like watching a series of "Vera" or "Endeavour", it just gets to the interesting part and you're sitting on the edge of your seat, then you have to wait a whole week to find out what happened. smilie

But it really isn't funny, we're talking about the demise of a 3 year old girl, obviously people know what happened to her, she was dead and that was that, they had their own families to think of and their careers and their lives mattered more than hers did.

by **sharonl** 16.06.20 11:24

Wishful thinking maybe but, which investigation are the Germans assisting? The cover-up in the UK or the official investigation in Portugal?

What evidence of death, apart from the dogs alerting to the McCanns property, could the Germans possibly have? Unless, a body has been found, highly unlikely though.

This is a political coverup, and it started with Tony Blair sending Clarrie over to "control what came out in the press'. Then we had Gordon Brown meeting with the then Portuguese PM (since convicted for corruption) Jose Socrates, who seems to have been the power behind Goncalo Amaral being taken off the case.

It may sound daft but since Brexit, is there any chance that the UK coverup will lose the support of other nations? I mean, did Gordon threaten trade with Portugal if Socrates didn't co-operate, was a deal struck?

by Trotters 16.06.20 11:37

Could it be that Christian Whatshisname was simply having a night on the rob, saw someone leave that particular appt, figured he'd have at least a few minutes to get in and out, then stumbled upon Maddie lying face down dead having fallen off the back of the couch?

Not something he could report but certainly something he'd remember and possibly talk about with scumbag associates.

On the one hand, he'd have some bargaining chip to deal against his sentence but, again, that puts him at the scene and highlights him as a prime suspect.

Just thinking out loud. Sorry if that's been discussed already.

by cookiemuncher 16.06.20 11:41

sharonl wrote:Wishful thinking maybe but, with investigation are the Germans assisting? The cover-up in the UK or the official investigation in Portugal?

What evidence of death, apart from the dogs alerting to the McCanns property, could the Germans possibly have? Unless, a body has been found, highly unlikely though.

This is a political coverup, and it started with Tony Blair sending Clarrie over to "control what came out in the press'. Then we had Gordon Brown meeting with the then Portuguese PM (since convicted for corruption) Jose Socrates, who seems to have been the power behind Gonzalo Amaral being taken off the case.

It may sound daft but since Brexit, is there any chance that the UK coverup will lose the support of other nations? I mean, did Gordon threaten trade with Portugal if Socrates didn't co-operate, was a deal struck?

Gordon Brown snuck into Lisbon late at night to sign the Treaty of Lisbon on 13th December 2007 after everyone else did. Had he done a deal with the Portuguese government to let the McCanns off the hook if he signed it? That is the big question. Were negotiations going on until the last minute?

Didn't Gordon Brown have connections with the McCanns, someone they knew lived near him or something, if I recall. They "called in favours" according to Madeleine's uncle, sorry I can't remember his name but he's the spittin' image of Madeleine. I've done a search on the internet but can't find any photos of him.

by nomendelta 16.06.20 11:48

I just don't think in any way shape or form that the German police could be persuaded or lent on, especially when you consider that stating Maddie is dead is completely against anything the McCanns would want to be stated publicly.

Further, if you consider the channels that would need to be taken to create a scenario where the Germans are acting as puppets - surely far too risky, far too much chance of a leak?

I appreciate a lot of work has gone in to investigating this case from all parties but I can't help but feel a lot of people are desperately clinging on to their theories. I have not found one single theory that makes total sense of all the facts and any which detail the parents witting or unwitting involvement in her death means that they are complete and utter monsters given the smiling and laughing they did mere days after.

As usual, time will tell but this is, for my money, one of the most interesting developments in the case. Imagine though if he WAS the disposal man rather than killer/abductor...be an awful lot of sweating going on in the McCann camp.

by sallypelt 16.06.20 11:51

nomendelta wrote:I just don't think in any way shape or form that the German police could be persuaded or lent on, especially when you consider that stating Maddie is dead is completely against anything the McCanns would want to be stated publicly.

Further, if you consider the channels that would need to be taken to create a scenario where the Germans are acting as puppets - surely far too risky, far too much chance of a leak?

I appreciate a lot of work has gone in to investigating this case from all parties but I can't help but feel a lot of people are desperately clinging on to their theories. I have not found one single theory that makes total sense of all the facts and any which detail the parents witting or unwitting involvement in her death means that they are complete and utter monsters given the smiling and laughing they did mere days after.

As usual, time will tell but this is, for my money, one of the most interesting developments in the case. Imagine though if he WAS the disposal man rather than killer/abductor...be an awful lot of sweating going on in the McCann camp.

We've already been told, that with this latest development, Kate is doing a lot of crying to Fiona. This is being done over the phone, due to them not being able to meet, because of lockdown.

by cookiemuncher 16.06.20 11:51

Trotters wrote:Could it be that Christian Whatshisname was simply having a night on the rob, saw someone leave that particular appt, figured he'd have at least a few minutes to get in and out, then stumbled upon Maddie lying face down dead having fallen off the back of the couch?

Not something he could report but certainly something he'd remember and possibly talk about with scumbag associates.

On the one hand, he'd have some bargaining chip to deal against his sentence but, again, that puts him at the scene and highlights him as a prime suspect.

Just thinking out loud. Sorry if that's been discussed already.

That's a very good notion, in all the years I've been reading this forum I don't think I've read that suggestion before.

However, he could not be a prime suspect as it takes about an hour for cadaverine odour to form, but he probably didn't know that if he did get into the apartment and did a runner in panic

by sallypelt 16.06.20 11:54

cookiemuncher wrote:
Trotters wrote:Could it be that Christian Whatshisname was simply having a night on the rob, saw someone leave that particular appt, figured he'd have at least a few minutes to get in and out, then stumbled upon Maddie lying face down dead having fallen off the back of the couch?

Not something he could report but certainly something he'd remember and possibly talk about with scumbag associates.

On the one hand, he'd have some bargaining chip to deal against his sentence but, again, that puts him at the scene and highlights him as a prime suspect.

Just thinking out loud. Sorry if that's been discussed already.
That's a very good notion, in all the years I've been reading this forum I don't think I've read that suggestion before.

However, he could not be a prime suspect as it takes about an hour for cadaverine odour to form, but he probably didn't know that if he did get into the apartment and did a runner in panic

Maybe the dogs picked up the scent, not from a dead body having been in the apartment, but some item or items that had been in direct contact with a cadaver.

Now, where DID I put that big blue bag?

by sallypelt 16.06.20 11:57

Taken from Robert Murat's PJ statement, given on 10 July 2007

He also wants now to amend what he previously said about what he did on 03 May. Once again he states that being tired and confused he had stated things that he now sees are not correct. He refers therefore that he will have got up at 08.00 having left home by 08:45. He had already scheduled a business visit to a tourist complex called "Montinhos de Ouro", located in the region of Espiche, which he made in the company of Michaela. So he went to collect Michaela at home, driving the VW. He does not remember if he went up to Michaela's home. He states that that morning they were both in his van at the complex where they had scheduled a meeting at a time he does not recall exactly but thinks it would be by 09:30.

by Eastree27 16.06.20 12:09

cookiemuncher wrote:
sharonl wrote:Wishful thinking maybe but, with investigation are the Germans assisting? The cover-up in the UK or the official investigation in Portugal?

What evidence of death, apart from the dogs alerting to the McCanns property, could the Germans possibly have? Unless, a body has been found, highly unlikely though.

This is a political coverup, and it started with Tony Blair sending Clarrie over to "control what came out in the press'. Then we had Gordon Brown meeting with the then Portuguese PM (since convicted for corruption) Jose Socrates, who seems to have been the power behind Gonzalo Amaral being taken off the case.

It may sound daft but since Brexit, is there any chance that the UK coverup will lose the support of other nations? I mean, did Gordon threaten trade with Portugal if Socrates didn't co-operate, was a deal struck?
Gordon Brown snuck into Lisbon late at night to sign the Treaty of Lisbon on 13th December 2007 after everyone else did. Had he done a deal with the Portuguese government to let the McCanns off the hook if he signed it? That is the big question. Were negotiations going on until the last minute?

Didn't Gordon Brown have connections with the McCanns, someone they knew lived near him or something, if I recall. They "called in favours" according to Madeleine's uncle, sorry I can't remember his name but he's the spittin' image of Madeleine. I've done a search on the internet but can't find any photos of him.

No because I think David Millaband signed it in the morning before Brown flew over.

Treaty of Lisbon is EU wide not just UK/Portugal so not the right forum for those negotiations - Brown involvement would be discrete phone calls not willing to explode treaties - the more people who know the coverup the harder to hide it coming out in the press.

by **Jill Havern** 16.06.20 12:15

cookiemuncher wrote:
Trotters wrote:Could it be that Christian Whatshisname was simply having a night on the rob, saw someone leave that particular appt, figured he'd have at least a few minutes to get in and out, then stumbled upon Maddie lying face down dead having fallen off the back of the couch?

Not something he could report but certainly something he'd remember and possibly talk about with scumbag associates.

On the one hand, he'd have some bargaining chip to deal against his sentence but, again, that puts him at the scene and highlights him as a prime suspect.

Just thinking out loud. Sorry if that's been discussed already.
That's a very good notion, in all the years I've been reading this forum I don't think I've read that suggestion before.

However, he could not be a prime suspect as it takes about an hour for cadaverine odour to form, but he probably didn't know that if he did get into the apartment and did a runner in panic

Yes it is, but would a burglar/rapist who'd just popped in to see what valuables/children might be laying around think to look behind a sofa first? After all Gerry said "no valuables had been taken", so the discovery of Maddie would have happened pretty quickly.

Maybe people do tend to leave their valuables~~/children~~ out of sight behind a sofa when on holiday and going out for the evening.

Or maybe he'd heard the phrase about how 'we all lose money~~/children~~ down the back of the sofa'.

by cookiemuncher 16.06.20 12:16

sallypelt wrote:
nomendelta wrote:I just don't think in any way shape or form that the German police could be persuaded or lent on, especially when you consider that stating Maddie is dead is completely against anything the McCanns would want to be stated publicly.

Further, if you consider the channels that would need to be taken to create a scenario where the Germans are acting as puppets - surely far too risky, far too much chance of a leak?

I appreciate a lot of work has gone in to investigating this case from all parties but I can't help but feel a lot of people are desperately clinging on to their theories. I have not found one single theory that makes total sense of all the facts and any which detail the parents witting or unwitting involvement in her death means that they are complete and utter monsters given the smiling and laughing they did mere days after.

As usual, time will tell but this is, for my money, one of the most interesting developments in the case. Imagine though if he WAS the disposal man rather than killer/abductor...be an awful lot of sweating going on in the McCann camp.
We've already been told, that with this latest development, Kate is doing a lot of crying to Fiona. This is being done over the phone, due to them not being able to meet, because of lockdown.

"Kate is doing a lot of crying to Fiona".

It's a pity she didn't cry over the loss of Madeleine instead of being all smiles in the church and going on their "walkabouts". Is the crying because Karma is being served and things are catching up with them perhaps?

When my Mother died suddenly I couldn't function normally for about 2 weeks or more, I felt utterly devastated even though I had her funeral and other things to sort out. I didn't know what day it was most of the time, or whether I'd eaten or not. I wasn't up to smiling that was the last thing on my mind, even months later.

by **PeterMac** 16.06.20 12:19

Could it be that Christian Whatshisname was simply having a night on the rob, saw someone leave that particular appt, figured he'd have at least a few minutes to get in and out, then stumbled upon Maddie lying face down dead having fallen off the back of the couch?

1 Night on the rob. Very possible

2 Saw someone leaving that particular appt. This can only be GM, who then stood outside for 10-15 minutes talking, whilst JT flip-flopped past, going North and then returning due South very soon after Gerry had left the scene ,
OR. MO who came from the north, went into and then left 5A, and continued South to the Tapas bar.
JT and MO both go round the top of the apartment block so get to look along the top road, in both directions.

3. stumbled across M lying face down dead having fallen odd the back of the couch. She is down the back of the couch. Not visible to anyone, and certainly not to a burglar who enters through the patio door where the opening is on the extreme left, when the couch is on the extreme right . . . in the dark . . . with only minutes to go before someone comes back . . .

4. He also has to avoid being seen by JT, ROB, MO, MO again as he enters the appt, MO a third time - as he leaves the appt, JT again, and ROB again
Which leaves him with windows of opportunity of under 3 minutes each time, if that.

4 even if any of the above, why then 'steal a corpse' rather than just running away. He was having a night on the rob not body snatching. There is no ready market for dead children.

Sorry. All ideas welcome but this one doesn't quite do it for me.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **Jill Havern** 16.06.20 12:20

cookiemuncher wrote:
sallypelt wrote:
nomendelta wrote:I just don't think in any way shape or form that the German police could be persuaded or lent on, especially when you consider that stating Maddie is dead is completely against anything the McCanns would want to be stated publicly.

Further, if you consider the channels that would need to be taken to create a scenario where the Germans are acting as puppets - surely far too risky, far too much chance of a leak?

I appreciate a lot of work has gone in to investigating this case from all parties but I can't help but feel a lot of people are desperately clinging on to their theories. I have not found one single theory that makes total sense of all the facts and any which detail the parents witting or unwitting involvement in her death means that they are complete and utter monsters given the smiling and laughing they did mere days after.

As usual, time will tell but this is, for my money, one of the most interesting developments in the case. Imagine though if he WAS the disposal man rather than killer/abductor...be an awful lot of sweating going on in the McCann camp.
We've already been told, that with this latest development, Kate is doing a lot of crying to Fiona. This is being done over the phone, due to them not being able to meet, because of lockdown.
"Kate is doing a lot of crying to Fiona".

It's a pity she didn't cry over the loss of Madeleine instead of being all smiles in the church and going on their "walkabouts". Is the crying because Karma is being served and things are catching up with them perhaps?

When my Mother died suddenly I couldn't function normally for about 2 weeks or more, I felt utterly devastated even though I had her funeral and other things to sort out. I didn't know what day it was most of the time, or whether I'd eaten or not. I wasn't up to smiling that was the last thing on my mind, even months later.

Yep, and that's your mother you're talking about. singlerose

Now imagine if that was your three-year-old child who'd died suddenly.

by Roidininki 16.06.20 12:30

Published today on the Official Madeleine Page

Kate & Gerry McCann Statement: June 16th 2020
Since the recent police appeals regarding Madeleine’s disappearance there have been many inaccurate stories reported in the media. The widely reported news that we have a received a letter from the German authorities that states there is evidence or proof that Madeleine is dead is FALSE. Like many unsubstantiated stories in the media, this has caused unnecessary anxiety to friends and family and once again disrupted our lives.
As we have stated many times before, we will not give a running commentary on the investigation- that is the job of the law enforcement agencies and we will support them in any way requested. Furthermore, we do not have a family spokesperson nor are we actively paying any lawyers. Any recent comments attributed in the media have not come from us unless they have been posted on our website. If there are important developments that can be made public, they will be issued through official police channels.
Kate and Gerry

MONDAY, JUNE 15, 2020

Maddie McCann Misses: Is The Little Girl Dead?

Latest topics