Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

kaz wrote:

Verdi wrote:

kaz wrote:From what I’ve read in the PJ Files it does seem as though the twins were given some sort of sedative on the evening of the third of May.

Would you be so kind as to provide the link to where this information can be found in the PJ files?  Thanks .

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Police Exhibit No IM20A


Person Interviewed:
Fiona PAYNE
Number of Pages 55

‘’…………………. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd…..’’

Verdi wrote:PeterMac's e-book is well researched and thorough in it's approach to the subject of sedation, leaving a conclusion to the eye of the reader.

Something that baffles me is why, if the McCanns or someone known to them had sedated one, two or all of the McCann children, why would they draw attention to it?  Why make such a show of checking the twins breathing if not to add credence to the drugged by abductor theory?  Surely even a qualified medic, if they found their child/ren in an unconscious state, would immediately arrange for them to be rushed to hospital - no matter what!

Another thing that always lurks in the back of my mind is Goncalo Amaral's mention in his book, I quote..

The Truth of the Lie - Goncalo Amaral  Chapter 3

Lots of people were already in place; however, nobody appeared in the photos. We don't know, for example, how they were dressed. Such observations can turn out to be important later on. The report mentions that the twins were asleep in their bed, but there is no proof to confirm it; on the contrary, in the photographs, you can see empty cots, where only the mattresses remain - the sheets and blankets having been removed. Why have their beds been stripped? If the sheets had not been removed, traces of their presence could have been found there.

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Were the twins even there?  The only witnesses present who mention the twins are the McCanns, their friends, Warner's staff (all questionable in their own right) and a GNR officer who could easily have been duped by the chaos, the language barrier and Kate McCann/Fiona Payne's fabrication.

To believe that Madeleine and/or the twins were sedated, you have to first believe that all the children were left by the McCanns and their friends - including grandmother Dianne Webster - every night unattended whilst they were dining at the Tapas restaurant.

I don't believe that any more than I believe the McCanns left the patio door unlocked every night.

suzysu wrote:

5A CHEST OF DRAWERS

01_VOLUMEIa_Page_22  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   PJ PHOTOS

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Does anyone else remember something about the drugs in this photo being Kate's father's heart medication? Something odd about drugs Kate and Gerry had in their bedside drawer?

ChippyM wrote:

one day we will find you wrote:i feel the mccans gave maddie something a lot stronger than calpol.one of the group had said their child was sick and vomited and he had to clean it up before returning to the group.i feel it wasnt his child that was sick and vomiting.it was maddie and maybe the reason she died'choked on her vomit after being drugged at bedtime

What if all the children were left together and accidentally consumed varying amounts of some drug or substance which shouldn't have been left accessible?  Then 1 or more of the children become ill as a result, 1 recovers, 1 does not. A group of doctors could monitor the ill children and think all will recover. When one doesn't recover as expected they are left being responsible for an overdose AND not getting the child to hospital as they should have done.
 
Either this or more than one child could have been given some kind of sedative intentionally...then the illness scenario again.

 These 2 scenarios could explain the 'pact' and solidarity of the group. It could also explain the breathing checks on the Twins by an unnerved parent who is paranoid about the health of their remaining children.

nglfi wrote:Regarding the theory that influential people were in Praia da Luz that week for some sort of medical conference, I would be surprised if out of that many people over nearly 10 years, there was not one whistle-blower, even anonymously, who would be prepared to say why that many seemingly unconnected elite people were there at the same time. However this has always been a massive sticking point for me. I don't understand why so many  well off and influential people would be there at the same time, when personally the Ocean Club seems quite run down and budget. I hate to think about paedophile rings but it explains more I think the extreme secrecy and dead ends over the years.

Verdi wrote:

kaz wrote:

Verdi wrote:

kaz wrote:From what I’ve read in the PJ Files it does seem as though the twins were given some sort of sedative on the evening of the third of May.

Would you be so kind as to provide the link to where this information can be found in the PJ files?  Thanks .

RECORD OF TAPE RECORDED INTERVIEW
Police Exhibit No IM20A


Person Interviewed:
Fiona PAYNE
Number of Pages 55

‘’…………………. Erm, tut, I looked, when I went into the room that Madeleine was sleeping in, the room was dark, Madeleine, erm, Madeleine's bed was sort of folded back, the sheets, quite kind of neatly really, erm, Sean and Amelie were fast asleep in their cots, they didn't stir, you know, I was opening the cupboards in the room and moving around the room, they didn't stir at all, which that was, that was odd…..’’

As I suspected, what you have read in the PJ files is the McCann version of the truth - when asking for a link I was rather hoping for something more conclusive i.e. evidence.

No, you needn't take the trouble to run me through anything - I was only interested to learn the source of your information.

tinkier wrote:

suzysu wrote:

5A CHEST OF DRAWERS

01_VOLUMEIa_Page_22  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]   PJ PHOTOS

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Does anyone else remember something about the drugs in this photo being Kate's father's heart medication? Something odd about drugs Kate and Gerry had in their bedside drawer?

It was said they were drugs for Kate's fathers parkinson's disease. More on subject here https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t4874-kate-mccann-s-attack-on-lies-over-drugs-found-in-maddie-flat

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

Nomadicinfo wrote:

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

...so how did the blood come about, even if she had fell between the chair and the wall would the fall of been enough to produce blood...?..in anycase there's no solid proof that she did die in the appartment, if we are prepared to believe that there is no real sign of Maddie from sunday or monday onwards then we should also accept the idea that she died elsewhere and was hidden in the appartment afterwards....

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

You can also use the forum's search facility - you will find a wealth of information on just about every aspect of the case you might be interested in.

NB:  Your faith has no relevance to this thread  .

one day we will find you wrote:

Nomadicinfo wrote:

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

...so how did the blood come about, even if she had fell between the chair and the wall would the fall of been enough to produce blood...?..in anycase there's no solid proof that she did die in the appartment, if we are prepared to believe that there is no real sign of Maddie from sunday or monday onwards then we should also accept the idea that she died elsewhere and was hidden in the appartment afterwards....

falling from the window ledge where the blood was found and hitting her head as she fell backwards maybe enough to kill a 3year old.i doubt very much she died anywhere else .but its possible .any theories on where the death might have taken place

Verdi wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I have been arguing that point for years - of course they could easily explain away an accidental overdose as they could explain away any other accident.  They didn't even need to admit leaving the children unattended every night as at least one of the adults and/or children were poorly so in their respective apartments and they were said to have been up and down from the restaurant table every night - unlikely anyone was taking note of their every move.  The pretext of leaving the children unattended, in my opinion, was created to give an abductor opportunity - full stop.

"Maddie had to disappear to prevent an autopsy being performed.

Something or somethings would have been found that would have shown Maddie's death do be none accidental or a result of long term abuse of some kind."

Spot on - there can be no other explanation, another point I've been arguing for years. 


This brings the thread back on track !

Verdi wrote:

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

With respect, you really do need to read up on the case before drawing baseless conclusions.  You're detracting from years of research and analysis by reverting to misinformation and random meaningless comment.

As regards forensics, detail of the blood residue samples harvested by the Portuguese experts and later re-tested by the UK forensic laboratories can be found here..

'There proceeded the search for possible blood traces in all of the apartment, using a variable- wave light source appropriate for the task.This search resulted in the detection of several spots having a red-brown tone that suggested blood, which were subjected to a "Kastle-Mayer" peroxidise test, the result obtained, in all cases, being negative.

There also proceeded the observation and search for blood traces inside the apartment using a chemical product to find latent blood traces. In the application of the referred product no results characteristic of the presence of blood traces were found.'

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'On 4 August 2007, at 15h00, a crime laboratory team comprising the signatories
went, at the request of DIC Portimao PJ, to a residence at [the above address] in
order to collect trace evidence from the place.

According to the request by the officers of the DIC Portimao present at the location,
the undersigned should proceed to inspect, "by naked eye" [in natural light] and
through the use of a light source that can alter wavelengths appropriately for the job,
and to the recovery of all spots [stains; marks] existing on the floor and on the wall of the living room next to the place from where there were previously lifted and collected four floor tiles, and on the back of the blue, cloth-upholstered sofas that were next to that wall.'

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You can also use the forum's search facility - you will find a wealth of information on just about every aspect of the case you might be interested in.

NB:  Your faith has no relevance to this thread  .

Nomadicinfo wrote:

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

...so how did the blood come about, even if she had fallen between the chair and the wall would the fall of been enough to produce blood...?..in anycase there's no solid proof that she did die in the appartment, if we are prepared to believe that there is no real sign of Maddie from sunday or monday onwards then we should also accept the idea that she died elsewhere and was hidden in the appartment afterwards....

Nina wrote:

Nomadicinfo wrote:

one day we will find you wrote:louminal which shows traces of blood when sprayed should have been used.maybe there was a larger pool of blood that was cleaned up .if the blood was found under the tiles it might indicate quite a large amount as it would have had to seep through the tiles.they might have been able to determine that with that much blood loss a 3year old would not survive.was she seen after the crying incident that mrs fern reported.we cant take the word of the tapas 9 and their nannies that she was.it has to be an independent witness .their nannies hand writing should be looked at to see if she forged any signatures on the time sheets.if she did the police should charge her for it and take it from there.she is the weak link.the tapas9 are doctors they wont crack.iam not saying the nanny knows everything they would not take that risk.but she may have been asked to lie about the last time she saw maddie.maddie must be found and given a proper christian burial her little soul must have peace.even if the mccans dont face justice.'iam a muslim by the way'

...so how did the blood come about, even if she had fallen between the chair and the wall would the fall of been enough to produce blood...?..in anycase there's no solid proof that she did die in the appartment, if we are prepared to believe that there is no real sign of Maddie from sunday or monday onwards then we should also accept the idea that she died elsewhere and was hidden in the appartment afterwards....

Good point and worthy of discussion I think. 
We are fixed that the indications of death in apartment 5A means that Madeleine died there and that isn't necessarily so, it could mean died elsewhere and brought back to the apartment. There is the blood though as corpses don't bleed unless there was dried blood on the body which was washed off and this ran through the cracks in the tile grouting.
Why do that though,  bring a body back, unless it was someone else who brought her back?

Carrry On Doctor wrote:
Its as if they want to provide justification for further questioning, or reconstruction.
This time though, it couldn't be declined.

Carrry On Doctor wrote:Thank you for your unsurprising response, agent [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

In the spirit of the topic, and in light of your encyclopedic knowledge of the case, I invite you (once again) to tell us in detail what YOU believe happened to Madeleine.