Re: Hobs' theory: What I believe may have happened to Madeleine McCann

by kaz 03.01.16 18:08

Hobs wrote:The big question is:

Why would they make an accidental death (if that is what it was) look like a homicide?

An accidental death leaves a body behind as evidence as does an homicide. Not so an abduction. For some reason the poor child's body had to be disposed of . If it was just a case that the body had to disappear because of previous child abuse injury ( as has been suggested by some posters) why then clean away signs of her DNA in the apartment ? Why would that be important? A lack of a body showing evidence would have sufficed surely ?

by worriedmum 03.01.16 18:11

kaz wrote:
Hobs wrote:The big question is:

Why would they make an accidental death (if that is what it was) look like a homicide?
An accidental death leaves a body behind as evidence as does an homicide. Not so an abduction. For some reason the poor child's body had to be disposed of . If it was just a case that the body had to disappear because of child abuse injury ( as has been suggested by some posters) why then clean away signs of her DNA? Why would that be important? A lack of a body showing evidence would have been sufficient surely ?

Those responsible for the cleaning may have not intended to remove DNA, but other substances.

by whodunit 03.01.16 18:16

worriedmum wrote:
kaz wrote:
Hobs wrote:The big question is:

Why would they make an accidental death (if that is what it was) look like a homicide?
An accidental death leaves a body behind as evidence as does an homicide. Not so an abduction. For some reason the poor child's body had to be disposed of . If it was just a case that the body had to disappear because of child abuse injury ( as has been suggested by some posters) why then clean away signs of her DNA? Why would that be important? A lack of a body showing evidence would have been sufficient surely ?
Those responsible for the cleaning may have not intended to remove DNA, but other substances.

Exactly. The thoroughness of the cleaning, even down to washing the child's beloved toy, and the curtains for goodness sake, is indicative of their desperation.

by kaz 03.01.16 18:36

@ whodunit

''....................Exactly. The thoroughness of the cleaning, even down to washing the child's beloved toy, and the curtains for goodness sake, is indicative of their desperation...''

WHY would Kate wash the child's toy ? Exactly what information could be gleaned from it ? There could have been hundreds of bits of forensic information on it but could any of it realistically be linked to the 'abduction'? If there had been the slightest chance of that then why would the supposedly intelligent Kate purposely destroy possible evidence? Isn't it more likely that as Madeleine's supposed favourite toy, Cuddle Cat would have been heaving with her DNA ?

by Sophiebubbles 03.01.16 19:20

kaz wrote:@ whodunit

''....................Exactly. The thoroughness of the cleaning, even down to washing the child's beloved toy, and the curtains for goodness sake, is indicative of their desperation...''

WHY would Kate wash the child's toy ? Exactly what information could be gleaned from it ? There could have been hundreds of bits of forensic information on it but could any of it realistically be linked to the 'abduction'? If there had been the slightest chance of that then why would the supposedly intelligent Kate purposely destroy possible evidence? Isn't it more likely that as Madeleine's supposed favourite toy, Cuddle Cat would have been heaving with her DNA ?

Yes but @ kaz@ whodunit....as @ worriedmum posted ...they may not have realised or thought about DNA whilst washing cuddlecat.....it may have been another substance which they needed to wash away as it could have carried someone elses DNA...perhaps the sustance would have been identifiable...therefore the person/s concerned would have some explaining to do (depending on what substance it could have been) If it had their DNA on it.

by **Hobs** 03.01.16 22:52

Forensic scene of crime people look for what IS there that shouldn't be and,

Just as importantly

What ISN'T there that should be.

Both can tell the story of what happened where and when

by Guest 03.01.16 22:52

kaz wrote:
Hobs wrote:The big question is:

Why would they make an accidental death (if that is what it was) look like a homicide?
An accidental death leaves a body behind as evidence as does an homicide. Not so an abduction. For some reason the poor child's body had to be disposed of . If it was just a case that the body had to disappear because of previous child abuse injury ( as has been suggested by some posters) why then clean away signs of her DNA in the apartment ? Why would that be important? A lack of a body showing evidence would have sufficed surely ?

Doctors - forensic savvy!

by Guest 03.01.16 23:08

Jon Corner talking about Madeleine - Vanity Fair

"So beautiful, astonishingly bright, and I’d have to say very charismatic. She would shine out of a crowd. So—God forgive me—maybe that’s part of the problem. That special quality. Some ******* picked up on that."

Jon Corner - Cuddle Cat - Timesonline

'Gerry paused over Madeleine, who – a typical doctor’s observation, this – was lying almost in "the recovery position" with Cuddle Cat, the toy her godfather, John Corner, had bought her, and her comfort blanket up near her head, and Gerry thought how gorgeous, how lovely-looking she was and how lucky he was.'

Jon Corner - Panorama

"Well this is the bizarre thing Richard because the police said to Kate and Gerry: "Yeah, we're going to be coming along, we want to do some forensics." And Kate and Gerry were massively optimistic about this. You've got to remember if your daughter is missing and the police phone you and say: "We want to do some forensics, that's a straw that you hang onto. That's a moment for optimism."

Earlier Corner had said this:

"They took most of their clothing, they were taking even the wet clothes out of the washing machine. I was aware that the cuddlecat was boxed up and we were asked to leave the villa."

mccannfiles.com

So, the police phoned the McCanns to say they were coming over to do some forensics and the McCanns, it would appear, immediately filled up the washing machine with clothes.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Jon Corner - very close friend of the McCanns.

by **Tony Bennett** 03.01.16 23:24

Verdi wrote:
Jon Corner - very close friend of the McCanns.

And doing very nicely now thank you very much to Salford City Council...

===========================

JON CORNER COMPANY RAKES IN ALMOST £173,000 FROM SALFORD COUNCIL

SALFORD COUNCIL PAYS ALMOST £173,000 TO THE LANDING AT MEDIACITYUK CEO COMPANY

Star date: 19th August 2013

A Salford Star Exclusive

JON CORNER COMPANY RAKES IN ALMOST £173,000 FROM SALFORD COUNCIL

Cash strapped Salford City Council paid out £172,900 to a company called Mediastill, controlled by Jon Corner, the Chief Executive Officer of The Landing at MediaCityUK, between March 2012 and April 2013, the Salford Star can reveal.

This `consultant' payment for managing the Council's `high-tech hub' for small and medium digital companies works out at over £12,000 per month, more than any other senior officer at Salford Council, except Chief Exec Barbara Spicer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

According to Salford Council's official statement of payments over £500, it has paid a company called Mediastill £172,900 between March 2012 and April 2013 (the last date of publicly declared payments) for `consultancy'.

Mediastill Ltd is a Liverpool based company with no phone number or website, only a registered office at an accountants, and is 75% owned by Jon Corner, Chief Executive at The Landing, Salford Council's `high-tech hub' for small and medium digital companies at MediaCityUK.

Jon Corner, the former head of Salford University's Media City operation, took up the post of Chief Executive of The Landing in January 2012, and, since March of that year until April this year, his company has received one payment for £13,300 followed by ten for £15,960, including VAT, over a 14 month period.

This works out at the equivalent of £12,350 per month, or £148,200 a year (inc VAT) - more than any other senior officer at Salford Council, except Chief Exec Barbara Spicer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] itself is a controversial project, beset by a huge five year £3.8million lease to Peel Holdings which owns the seven floor building.

Originally called the `Media Enterprise Centre', the costs for its creation rose from £8.4million in 2009 to £14.34million in 2012, with Salford Council's contribution towards the publicly funded `hub' more than doubling to £3.66milion over a period when £40million cuts to public spending were being sought. The other costs came from Europe (ERDF) and the now defunct North West Development Agency (NWDA).

Originally, Salford Council announced that there would be a `Make Media' community space in there but when The Landing opened that idea had been `cut' and, instead, there was a £120 a year private members bar called On The 7th (see previous Salford Star article for more details - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Despite being created with public money, The Landing at Media City UK Ltd, (the company which runs the `hub') is a private limited company with directors Jon Corner, Salford Council Development Director Karen Hirst, Deputy Mayor David Lancaster and City Mayor Ian Stewart.

In November 2012 the company's Articles of Association were changed so that just one director could make decisions on behalf of the board (`the quorum for the transaction of the business of the directors shall be one'), which offers up all sorts of questions about accountability.

Indeed the whole project, including payments to Jon Corner's company, offers up lots of questions which the Salford Star attempted to put to both Jon Corner and Salford Council...

We asked Salford Council what the payments to Jon Corner's Mediastill company were for, and whether they were wages for Jon Corner.

We asked Salford Council why, if this was the case, the payments were being paid through his company Mediastill, rather than as a full time wage subject to PAYE?

We asked Salford Council whether it thought it right in these cost cutting times to be paying Jon Corner's company huge amounts of `consultancy' money?

We asked Salford Council why The Landing, despite being created with public money and having public sector directors, was a private limited company?

We also asked Jon Corner himself what the payments to Mediastill were for; what Mediastill actually does; whether he works full time for The Landing, and whether the payments were actually his salary.

Jon Corner didn't respond, and the only comment Salford City Council would make was that "The implication in the question below is that Salford City Council and Jon Corner are engaged in tax avoidance in relation to the development of The Landing. This is completely wrong."

No, Salford Council, the implication is that you are paying a massive wad for `consultancy' to a company/person that appears to be working full time, while you are slashing budgets by £100million and cutting services for some of the most vulnerable people in the city.

• The original advert for The Landing's Chief Executive Officer stated that "The Chief Executive is the Landing's senior executive and is responsible for the management of the Landing, including the development and delivery of its business plan, the effective and efficient running of all its services, ensuring that the budget is properly managed and that the Landing's key risks are understood, communicated to relevant parties and managed. In addition to managing the day business, the Chief Executive will shape and direct the future vision of the Landing, working with the Industry and key stakeholders in a collaborative manner to secure the long term future of the business."

That doesn't sound like a part-time job…or a `consultant's' job.

• Companies House lists Mediastill Ltd as having two directors – Jon Corner, who owns 75% of the shares, and Michelle Thompson, a lecturer, who both live at the same address in Liverpool.

• According to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], the last set of accounts (July 2012) for Mediastill Ltd show the company having a book value of £4,900, with £14,100 cash in the bank and liabilities of £30,700. Mediastill's latest accounts are `overdue' according to Companies House.

by Guest 04.01.16 15:43

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:
Jon Corner - very close friend of the McCanns.
And doing very nicely now thank you very much to Salford City Council...

===========================

JON CORNER COMPANY RAKES IN ALMOST £173,000 FROM SALFORD COUNCIL

SALFORD COUNCIL PAYS ALMOST £173,000 TO THE LANDING AT MEDIACITYUK CEO COMPANY

Star date: 19th August 2013

A Salford Star Exclusive

JON CORNER COMPANY RAKES IN ALMOST £173,000 FROM SALFORD COUNCIL

Cash strapped Salford City Council paid out £172,900 to a company called Mediastill, controlled by Jon Corner, the Chief Executive Officer of The Landing at MediaCityUK, between March 2012 and April 2013, the Salford Star can reveal.

This `consultant' payment for managing the Council's `high-tech hub' for small and medium digital companies works out at over £12,000 per month, more than any other senior officer at Salford Council, except Chief Exec Barbara Spicer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

According to Salford Council's official statement of payments over £500, it has paid a company called Mediastill £172,900 between March 2012 and April 2013 (the last date of publicly declared payments) for `consultancy'.

Mediastill Ltd is a Liverpool based company with no phone number or website, only a registered office at an accountants, and is 75% owned by Jon Corner, Chief Executive at The Landing, Salford Council's `high-tech hub' for small and medium digital companies at MediaCityUK.

Jon Corner, the former head of Salford University's Media City operation, took up the post of Chief Executive of The Landing in January 2012, and, since March of that year until April this year, his company has received one payment for £13,300 followed by ten for £15,960, including VAT, over a 14 month period.

This works out at the equivalent of £12,350 per month, or £148,200 a year (inc VAT) - more than any other senior officer at Salford Council, except Chief Exec Barbara Spicer.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] itself is a controversial project, beset by a huge five year £3.8million lease to Peel Holdings which owns the seven floor building.

Originally called the `Media Enterprise Centre', the costs for its creation rose from £8.4million in 2009 to £14.34million in 2012, with Salford Council's contribution towards the publicly funded `hub' more than doubling to £3.66milion over a period when £40million cuts to public spending were being sought. The other costs came from Europe (ERDF) and the now defunct North West Development Agency (NWDA).

Originally, Salford Council announced that there would be a `Make Media' community space in there but when The Landing opened that idea had been `cut' and, instead, there was a £120 a year private members bar called On The 7th (see previous Salford Star article for more details - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.])

Despite being created with public money, The Landing at Media City UK Ltd, (the company which runs the `hub') is a private limited company with directors Jon Corner, Salford Council Development Director Karen Hirst, Deputy Mayor David Lancaster and City Mayor Ian Stewart.

In November 2012 the company's Articles of Association were changed so that just one director could make decisions on behalf of the board (`the quorum for the transaction of the business of the directors shall be one'), which offers up all sorts of questions about accountability.

Indeed the whole project, including payments to Jon Corner's company, offers up lots of questions which the Salford Star attempted to put to both Jon Corner and Salford Council...

We asked Salford Council what the payments to Jon Corner's Mediastill company were for, and whether they were wages for Jon Corner.

We asked Salford Council why, if this was the case, the payments were being paid through his company Mediastill, rather than as a full time wage subject to PAYE?

We asked Salford Council whether it thought it right in these cost cutting times to be paying Jon Corner's company huge amounts of `consultancy' money?

We asked Salford Council why The Landing, despite being created with public money and having public sector directors, was a private limited company?

We also asked Jon Corner himself what the payments to Mediastill were for; what Mediastill actually does; whether he works full time for The Landing, and whether the payments were actually his salary.

Jon Corner didn't respond, and the only comment Salford City Council would make was that "The implication in the question below is that Salford City Council and Jon Corner are engaged in tax avoidance in relation to the development of The Landing. This is completely wrong."

No, Salford Council, the implication is that you are paying a massive wad for `consultancy' to a company/person that appears to be working full time, while you are slashing budgets by £100million and cutting services for some of the most vulnerable people in the city.

• The original advert for The Landing's Chief Executive Officer stated that "The Chief Executive is the Landing's senior executive and is responsible for the management of the Landing, including the development and delivery of its business plan, the effective and efficient running of all its services, ensuring that the budget is properly managed and that the Landing's key risks are understood, communicated to relevant parties and managed. In addition to managing the day business, the Chief Executive will shape and direct the future vision of the Landing, working with the Industry and key stakeholders in a collaborative manner to secure the long term future of the business."

That doesn't sound like a part-time job…or a `consultant's' job.

• Companies House lists Mediastill Ltd as having two directors – Jon Corner, who owns 75% of the shares, and Michelle Thompson, a lecturer, who both live at the same address in Liverpool.

• According to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], the last set of accounts (July 2012) for Mediastill Ltd show the company having a book value of £4,900, with £14,100 cash in the bank and liabilities of £30,700. Mediastill's latest accounts are `overdue' according to Companies House.

Doesn't by any chance commission (apply the word as you feel inclined) low budget documentaries on the QT does he?

by skyrocket 04.01.16 16:56

A question regarding the DNA found in 5A.

The Portuguese forensic report dated 9 July 2007 states the following:

5th- In the samples from apartment 5-A, several mitochondrial DNA profiles were found:

- Profile identified by letter "C", present in 53 samples, was identical to that of Kate Healy, mother of the victim, meaning those samples were from her or from someone having the same maternal bloodline.

- Profile identified by letter "N", present in 24 samples, was identical to that of Gerald McCann, father of the victim, meaning those samples were from him or from someone having the same maternal bloodline.

- Profile identified by letter "G", present in 1 samples, was identical to that of Matthew David Oldfield, meaning that sample was from him or from someone having the same maternal bloodline.

- Profile identified by letter "I", present in 1 samples, was identical to that of David Anthony Payne, meaning that sample was from him or from someone having the same maternal bloodline.

- Profile identified by letter "O", present in 2 samples, was identical to that of Russell James O'Brien, meaning those samples were from him or from someone having the same maternal bloodline.

- Profile identified by letter "L", present in the spot on the bedspread of the bed next to the window and in seven hairs, meaning that all these samples came from the same person or from someone having the same maternal bloodline, did not match any of the reference samples.

- Profiles identified by letters "B", "D", "F", "J" and "Q" are different from the above, and from each other, and are distinct from reference samples.

It appears from the report that neither Amelie's or Sean's DNA profiles (shown as having been produced by 28 June 2007, so were available) were used as reference samples but would I be correct in saying that had any of their DNA been found in the samples tested from 5A it would have shown up as being related to KM's DNA sample (i.e. mother's line). In other words, do the above results show that none of the twins DNA was found in 5A? I know there are posters on here with this area of expertise - can you help with this one? Or does anyone know if this has this been clarified before?
Thanks

by kaz 07.01.16 13:08

@ Skyrocket

Firstly I know absolutely NOTHING about DNA so as soon as I have asked the question I'm about to, I'll don my bulletproof vest. You write:

''.................Profile identified by letter "C", present in 53 samples, was identical to that of Kate Healy, mother of the victim, meaning those samples were from her or from someone having the same maternal bloodline. ......................''

Is it possible that the 53 samples were from BOTH 'mini - me ' and Kate? Hence Madeleine's DNA was actually present?

by skyrocket 07.01.16 16:24

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Hmmmm, very good question! yes

Like you, I'm not qualified in any way to respond definitively.

The report does state quite clearly that the tests done by the Portuguese lab on these specific hair samples from 5A are for mitochondrial DNA which is inherited directly through the mother to all her natural children. It is then passed on again by any daughters to their children. SO, KM's mitochondrial DNA would be an exact match with Madeleine's, Sean's and Amelie's, and also with Susan Healy's (and any of Susan Healy's siblings). MtDNA testing is usually done when forensic samples are of poor quality.

Maternal line: the Mitochondrial-DNA is passed on from the mother to her children. All children from the same mother have the same Mitochondrial-DNA.(ref: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] )

And, the results in the report also state 'meaning those samples were from her or from someone having the same maternal bloodline', which to me suggests that those 53 hairs could have been from KM; MBM; SM; AM or SH.

Beyond that I wouldn't like to comment - is there anyone out there with more knowledge/experience of DNA testing?

Being relatively new to all this I'm wondering whether this has been clarified before. If anything, these particular test results, seem to muddy the waters more than before - they are neither one thing or another. Very frustrating.

by kaz 07.01.16 17:16

@ Skyrocket

I found some very interesting posts on here regarding DNA which were made in 2011 by 'Q.' I've tried accessing the discussion via the search engine but without success. Luckily when I found it I put it in my 'favourites' to read whenever I had the time. Very interesting it is too. You could try, ' Q wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in apartment 5GA.................' on google to get you to the pages.

by **Jill Havern** 07.01.16 17:20

kaz wrote:@ Skyrocket

I found some very interesting posts on here regarding DNA which were made in 2011 by 'Q.' I've tried accessing the discussion via the search engine but without success. Luckily when I found it I put it in my 'favourites' to read whenever I had the time. Very interesting it is too. You could try, ' Q wants to know why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in apartment 5GA.................' on google to get you to the pages.

They're 'sticky' threads in this section [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by skyrocket 07.01.16 18:03

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and @Get'EmGoncalo - thanks for the references. I will have a good read and see what 'Q' had to say about the DNA.

by Guest 07.01.16 20:14

kaz wrote:@ Skyrocket

Firstly I know absolutely NOTHING about DNA so as soon as I have asked the question I'm about to, I'll don my bulletproof vest. You write:

''.................Profile identified by letter "C", present in 53 samples, was identical to that of Kate Healy, mother of the victim, meaning those samples were from her or from someone having the same maternal bloodline. ......................''

Is it possible that the 53 samples were from BOTH 'mini - me ' and Kate? Hence Madeleine's DNA was actually present?

As the years go passing by, the issue of Madeleine's DNA has I believe become rather distorted, largely I think because people want to add substance to a notion that apartment 5a was subjected to a a deep clean in order to destroy any trace of Madeleine. This is of course ridiculous - Madeleine was undoubtedly present in apartment 5a at some stage so it's expected that forensic evidence of that presence would exist. Any clean-up operation would have been to destroy evidence of a crime, not of Madeleine's existence.

Initially the collection of DNA samples from the McCanns, their friends and anyone known to have been in the apartment (including Ocean Club staff, the GNR etc) was to identify the presence of DNA that shouldn't be at the crime scene, unknown persons and/or material evidence - in short, the process of elimination. This is normal policing procedure. A clean reference sample of Madeleine's DNA was later required by the PJ to match against Gerry, Kate and the twins to confirm biological parentage in order to rule out parental abduction.

As the PJ investigation progressed and the British dogs were deployed, naturally a clean reference sample of Madeleine's DNA was required to match against any forensic evidence harvested as a result of the dog alerts - this IMO is where it starts to get very murky, primarily because of the source of Madeleine's reference samples and because out of all the samples sent to the FSS for analysis, not one single positive was forthcoming.

A clean reference sample taken from a 'possible' saliva stain from a pillow case that mysteriously appeared, said to have come from the McCanns Rothley home, matched against a blood spot contained in a cardboard frame (sent to FSS by Leicester police), also mysteriously appeared from who knows where. Maybe GM collected the pillow case when he returned to the UK in May 2007, maybe not - whatever, the method of producing a clean reference sample to assist in a criminal investigation appears rather unorthodox in terms of customary policing procedures - but that's another matter altogether. This case stinks from the very beginning which encourages the imaginative to invent any number of theories but sometimes it's best to stick to basics rather than let the imagination run riot - no matter how tempting..

by joyce1938 07.01.16 23:20

The blood sample was usually taken in hospital from all newborns and it seems that was the one that was given to police,cant think of any other way it was selected ,but it was the regular thing to do for many years ,I think was tested for an illness,as far as I recall. joyce1938

by worriedmum 07.01.16 23:35

I am still mystified by the idea that Gerry McCann was asked to provide Madeleine's DNA sample from home unaccompanied. Is this really true?

by **Tony Bennett** 08.01.16 0:02

worriedmum wrote:I am still mystified by the idea that Gerry McCann was asked to provide Madeleine's DNA sample from home unaccompanied.

Is this really true?

NO.

He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer actually followed him into the bedroom where the pillow was, AFAIK we have not been told.

However, whilst we are on the very important general subject of (a) why none of Madeleine's DNA was found in Praia da Luz, and (b) Gerry McCann's visit to his Rothley home to collect Madeleine's DNA Britain, there remains the question of whether or not it was Madeleine's DNA on that pillow...

...or Amelie's?

See the official report, copied with due acknowledgement once again to Nigel Moore of mccannfiles.com

======================

WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior
Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks
Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK
Laboratory reference:
Order reference: 300 555190
Scientist:400 913 609
Scientist: LESLEY DENTON
Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Kate HEALY (51162896) and Gerald McCANN (51162897).

A DNA profile has also been obtained from a pillowcase (SJM/1).

DNA profiling reveals a series of bands, half of which a child inherits from their natural mother (maternal) and half of which ït ïnherits from their natural father (paternal).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profïle of abtained from the pillowcase are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of theirs.

The results of the DNA profife obtaïned from the pïllowcase is approximately 29 million times more likely if the profïle originates form a natural child of theirs rather than someone unrelated to them.

In my opinion, the results detailed above provide extremely strong support for the view that the profile obtained from the pillowcase originated from a natural child of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN.

Please note: I understand that the McCANN's have a second female child. It therefore remains a formal possibility that the DNA on the pillowcase could have originated from her as the genetics would be in keeping with those described above.

If I can be of further assitance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01XXX XXXXXX.

Yours sincerely

Lesley Anne Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007

by worriedmum 08.01.16 0:53

Thank you for clarifying that, Tony. Surely it is normal scientific practice to compare the sample against a control-in this case, Amelie's as she is the other female child of both parents? This would then establish whether the sample was an accurate specimen of Madeleine's DNA?

by Guest 08.01.16 1:01

@TonyBennett wrote: "He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer..."

Could you do me a very big favour by filling in a gap and providing a verified source for that piece of information - as in official source, not some tabloid bias report courtesy of the Murdoch empire? Never seen anything myself to reassure me that it is indeed fact.

Thanks.

by Guest 08.01.16 1:16

joyce1938 wrote:The blood sample was usually taken in hospital from all newborns and it seems that was the one that was given to police,cant think of any other way it was selected ,but it was the regular thing to do for many years ,I think was tested for an illness,as far as I recall. joyce1938

As far as I'm aware the blood spot in a cardboard frame has always been presumed to be a heel prick test (a Guthrie card) taken at birth (optional). I have never seen anything to verify that presumption although it may be factual. The heel prick test is for medical reasons only, in the unlikely event of a Guthrie card being required by the UK police in connection with a criminal investigation it can only be accessed through a court of law - whether or not this transpired is a matter of conjecture, however I am surprised that the official police/forensic service records refer to the object as a 'blood spot in a cardboard frame' as opposed to 'a heel prick test/Guthrie card'.

Considering the fishy provenance of the Rothley pillow case, I can't help but be sceptical about this mysterious blood spot in a cardboard frame. I could of course be wrong.

by skyrocket 08.01.16 8:13

@TB and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

For some reason Lesley Anne Denton sent 2 separate reports dated 28 June 2007. The first is the one reproduced above by @TB, and the second is below:

THE FORENSIC SCIENCE SERVICE
WETHERBY LABORATORY, SANDBECK WAY, AUDBY LANE, WETHERBY, WEST YORKSHIRE, LS22 7DN

FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: Det Supt Prior

Client: Leicestershire Police, New Parks

Police reference: 07/06085 Operation TASK

Laboratory reference: 300 655 190

Order reference: 400 922 755

Scientist: Lesley Denton

Number of pages: 2

Re: Abduction of Madeleine McCann on 3rd May 2007

A DNA profile has been obtained from the reference samples of Amelie Eve McCANN (SBM/2) and Sean Michael McCANN (SBM/3).

In this case, all of the bands present in the profiles of both Amelie McCANN and Sean McCANN are represented in the combined profiles of Kate HEALY and Gerald McCANN. This is what I would expect to find if Amelie McCANN and Sean Michael McCANN were their natural children.

Neither the DNA profile of Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN matches that from the pillowcase (SJM/1) and therefore in my opinion, neither Amelie McCANN nor Sean McCANN can be the source of this profile.

If I can be of further assistance or you require a CJA statement please do not hesitate to contact me at the laboratory on 01937 548287.

Yours sincerely,

Lesley Ann Denton
FORENSIC SCIENTIST
Date: 28 June 2007

So SJM/1 DNA profile (from the pillowcase and identical to the one from the blood sample) is from a natural daughter of KM and GM, but is not from Amelie McCann. Therefore, this specific DNA profile has to be that of MBM, or theoretically from a third unknown natural daughter.

by **Tony Bennett** 08.01.16 9:33

Verdi wrote:@Tony Bennett wrote: "He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer..."

Considering the fishy provenance of the Rothley pillow case, I can't help but be sceptical about this mysterious blood spot in a cardboard frame. I could of course be wrong. Could you do me a very big favour by filling in a gap and providing a verified source for that piece of information - as in official source, not some tabloid bias report courtesy of the Murdoch empire? Never seen anything myself to reassure me that it is indeed fact.

Thanks.

I have searched for well over half-an-hour for verifiable information that a police officer accompanied Gerry McCann when he went to collect a pillow case but I have not yet been able to.

These are however my findings this morning:

STATEMENTS (UNVERIFIED) MADE BY INTERNET FORUM MEMBERS

"This is why Gerry went back to UK to get Madeleine's pillow case which only she will have slept on, or at least this is probable. Gerry had a policeman with him at that time".

"The idea behind going to Rothley to get a sample was to have something they were certain was Madeleine's in order to be able to identify the samples they found in the apartment, car etc. So they could for example take a hair from Gerry McCann and know for certain it was his, compare it with the samples found in PDL and know what was his and what was not. We do not know under what circumstances the pillow was retrieved by Gerry McCann. Did the policeman physically go into the bedroom with him or did he wait downstairs ? Was it a friendly, sympathetic visit by the policeman or was it an "official" visit? I was looking at two of my boys who share a bedroom this morning, they had swapped beds so were lying on each others pillows! My other child takes the dog to his bedroom although this is against house rules, but I bet if we DNA tested his pillow they would tell me I had given birth to a dog. So there is room for doubt about that sample, in my opinion. My last job before leaving the house for a holiday is always to change the bed clothes, so we return to nice clean beds. I know lots of people who do that or others who take all the clothes off and leave the beds "air" while they are away. The pillowcase retrieval would not work for any of us".

"As I said...I know nothing about DNA etc., but Gerry was going to the U.K. for some reason, probably to instruct Carter Ruck to sue someone and was asked to collect a sample of Madeleine's DNA from Rothley, hence the pillowcase. He was supposedly accompanied by a LP Officer".

A SELECTION OF CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM 20 TO 24 MAY 2007, ALL OF WHICH MENTION GERRY ATTENDING THE WAR MEMORIAL IN ROTHLEY, AND HIS EMOTIONAL RETURN TO 'LOOK FOR PHOTOGRAPHS', BUT I CAN'T FIND ANY OF THEM WHICH REFER TO COLLECTING MADELEONE'S DNA

Daily Mail (no longer available online) 20 May 2007

Seventeen days after his four-year-old daughter disappeared, Gerry McCann flew back to an empty house that is still fresh with her memory.

Her room is as she left it when the family set off on their holiday to Portugal last month. Her toys are still there on the bed, her clothes in the wardrobe.

But with remarkable fortitude, the 38-year-old consultant embarked on a heart-rending mission in his ceaseless campaign to find his little girl.

He will trawl through four years of family albums and videos to select new pictures of her for his 'Find Madeleine' website. Then he will prepare to return to the Algarve to continue the search.

From Evening Standard 21 May No online link

Quoting friend Andrew Renwick, talking about Gerry's trip back to Rothley:

'Mr Renwick went on: "He felt he had to go back to do the practical things. There are bills that need to be paid. The family need more clothes and he wants to get more photographs of Madeleine to help in the search. He also wanted to meet organisers of the trust to go over documents."'

Madeleine police plea for photos [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Last Updated: Tuesday, 22 May 2007, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Tourists who have visited the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted are being asked to send their holiday photographs to British police.

They want anyone who was in the Praia da Luz area in the two weeks before the four-year-old disappeared on 3 May to send their photos to a new website.

Officers will cross-reference them with a database of UK paedophiles.

Madeleine's father Gerry has returned to Portugal to rejoin his wife and children after a brief trip to the UK.

Yellow tributes

Mr McCann arrived back in Praia Da Luz on Tuesday morning after his one-day visit home.

During his trip, Mr McCann visited the family's home village of Rothley, Leicestershire, where he saw the thousands of yellow ribbons, tributes, flowers and cuddly toys left by the public.

He spoke to some of the people who had gathered to show their support and tied his own yellow ribbon, which has become a symbol of hope for Madeleine.

As well as meeting organisers of the campaign to find her, it is believed his visit was also intended to enable the family to stay in Portugal for the foreseeable future.

FROM THE PORTUGUESE POLICE FILES

SOURCE: Processo 10 - VOLUME Xa; PDF page 160-165; Case file pages 2653-2658. FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: D/Supt PRIOR
Customer: New Parks Police Station,
Leicestershire Constabulary
Police reference: Operation Task
Laboratory reference: 300 655 190
Order reference: 400 932 184
Scientist: JOHN ROBERT LOWE
Number of pages: 6

Re: the abduction of Madeleine McCann

This report summarises the results of DNA profiling tests conducted on a number of samples submitted to the Birmingham laboratory of the Forensic Science Service(R) from the Leicestershire Constabulary on behalf of the Policia Judiciaria and Laboratorio De Policia Cientifica on 7th August 2007. This report is marked for the attention of Detective Superintendent Prior; however I understand and accept that the contents of this report will be shared with the necessary authorities in Portugal.

I have received from my colleague, Sarah Vraitch, copies of the reference DNA profiles of Gerald McCann (CB/1), Kate Healy (CB/2), Amelie McCann (SBM/2) and Sean McCann (SBM/3). I have also received a copy of the DNA profile obtained from the possible saliva staining on the pillow case (SJM/1) which is assumed to be the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.

01-01-Outros Apensos 01Vol I Pages 273 - 274

01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_273

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01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_274

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Emails

22nd May 2007, 16.06

Dear all,

Please see email below. Could you please push this batch through tonight.

Thanks.

22nd May 2007. 14.58

To: Auto BF Team Leaders

FW: Submission.

All,

See below. We are expecting an unpaid P1 submission from the Madeleine McCann case coming in tonight.

Process supervisor
DNA Trident Court

From: S. Vraitch

22nd May 2007 14.48

Hi,

Just to inform you both that I have an uncharged premium one today to start tomorrow in the case of Madeleine McCann.

The details are as follows:

300655190
400895869

Item SJM/1 - one stain from pillow case for cells.

Many thanks SV
Forensic Scientist.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

01-01-Outros Apensos 01 Vol I Page 275 to 281

B15 Crime Stain Sample Logging Form

Document reference FSS - TP - 234

Priory House

Date submitted: 22-05-2007

Sample type: Saliva (Misc)

Sample category : PI (uncharged)

Number of attempts: One only

Area description: Stain 1 pillowcase.

Comments: To be used as a surrogate reference sample.

Created on 22-05-2007

01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_275

by Guest 08.01.16 11:43

Tony Bennett wrote:
Verdi wrote:@Tony Bennett wrote: "He was accompanied by a police officer. The date was Monday 21 May. Whether the police officer..."

Considering the fishy provenance of the Rothley pillow case, I can't help but be sceptical about this mysterious blood spot in a cardboard frame. I could of course be wrong. Could you do me a very big favour by filling in a gap and providing a verified source for that piece of information - as in official source, not some tabloid bias report courtesy of the Murdoch empire? Never seen anything myself to reassure me that it is indeed fact.

Thanks.
I have searched for well over half-an-hour for verifiable information that a police officer accompanied Gerry McCann when he went to collect a pillow case but I have not yet been able to.

These are however my findings this morning:

STATEMENTS (UNVERIFIED) MADE BY INTERNET FORUM MEMBERS

"This is why Gerry went back to UK to get Madeleine's pillow case which only she will have slept on, or at least this is probable. Gerry had a policeman with him at that time".

"The idea behind going to Rothley to get a sample was to have something they were certain was Madeleine's in order to be able to identify the samples they found in the apartment, car etc. So they could for example take a hair from Gerry McCann and know for certain it was his, compare it with the samples found in PDL and know what was his and what was not. We do not know under what circumstances the pillow was retrieved by Gerry McCann. Did the policeman physically go into the bedroom with him or did he wait downstairs ? Was it a friendly, sympathetic visit by the policeman or was it an "official" visit? I was looking at two of my boys who share a bedroom this morning, they had swapped beds so were lying on each others pillows! My other child takes the dog to his bedroom although this is against house rules, but I bet if we DNA tested his pillow they would tell me I had given birth to a dog. So there is room for doubt about that sample, in my opinion. My last job before leaving the house for a holiday is always to change the bed clothes, so we return to nice clean beds. I know lots of people who do that or others who take all the clothes off and leave the beds "air" while they are away. The pillowcase retrieval would not work for any of us".

"As I said...I know nothing about DNA etc., but Gerry was going to the U.K. for some reason, probably to instruct Carter Ruck to sue someone and was asked to collect a sample of Madeleine's DNA from Rothley, hence the pillowcase. He was supposedly accompanied by a LP Officer".

A SELECTION OF CONTEMPORARY NEWSPAPER ARTICLES FROM 20 TO 24 MAY 2007, ALL OF WHICH MENTION GERRY ATTENDING THE WAR MEMORIAL IN ROTHLEY, AND HIS EMOTIONAL RETURN TO 'LOOK FOR PHOTOGRAPHS', BUT I CAN'T FIND ANY OF THEM WHICH REFER TO COLLECTING MADELEONE'S DNA

Daily Mail (no longer available online) 20 May 2007

Seventeen days after his four-year-old daughter disappeared, Gerry McCann flew back to an empty house that is still fresh with her memory.

Her room is as she left it when the family set off on their holiday to Portugal last month. Her toys are still there on the bed, her clothes in the wardrobe.

But with remarkable fortitude, the 38-year-old consultant embarked on a heart-rending mission in his ceaseless campaign to find his little girl.

He will trawl through four years of family albums and videos to select new pictures of her for his 'Find Madeleine' website. Then he will prepare to return to the Algarve to continue the search.

From Evening Standard 21 May No online link

Quoting friend Andrew Renwick, talking about Gerry's trip back to Rothley:

'Mr Renwick went on: "He felt he had to go back to do the practical things. There are bills that need to be paid. The family need more clothes and he wants to get more photographs of Madeleine to help in the search. He also wanted to meet organisers of the trust to go over documents."'

Madeleine police plea for photos [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - Last Updated: Tuesday, 22 May 2007, 11:58 GMT 12:58 UK

Tourists who have visited the Algarve resort where Madeleine McCann was abducted are being asked to send their holiday photographs to British police.

They want anyone who was in the Praia da Luz area in the two weeks before the four-year-old disappeared on 3 May to send their photos to a new website.

Officers will cross-reference them with a database of UK paedophiles.

Madeleine's father Gerry has returned to Portugal to rejoin his wife and children after a brief trip to the UK.

Yellow tributes

Mr McCann arrived back in Praia Da Luz on Tuesday morning after his one-day visit home.

During his trip, Mr McCann visited the family's home village of Rothley, Leicestershire, where he saw the thousands of yellow ribbons, tributes, flowers and cuddly toys left by the public.

He spoke to some of the people who had gathered to show their support and tied his own yellow ribbon, which has become a symbol of hope for Madeleine.

As well as meeting organisers of the campaign to find her, it is believed his visit was also intended to enable the family to stay in Portugal for the foreseeable future.

FROM THE PORTUGUESE POLICE FILES

SOURCE: Processo 10 - VOLUME Xa; PDF page 160-165; Case file pages 2653-2658. FORENSIC REPORT

Officer in case: D/Supt PRIOR
Customer: New Parks Police Station,
Leicestershire Constabulary
Police reference: Operation Task
Laboratory reference: 300 655 190
Order reference: 400 932 184
Scientist: JOHN ROBERT LOWE
Number of pages: 6

Re: the abduction of Madeleine McCann

This report summarises the results of DNA profiling tests conducted on a number of samples submitted to the Birmingham laboratory of the Forensic Science Service(R) from the Leicestershire Constabulary on behalf of the Policia Judiciaria and Laboratorio De Policia Cientifica on 7th August 2007. This report is marked for the attention of Detective Superintendent Prior; however I understand and accept that the contents of this report will be shared with the necessary authorities in Portugal.

I have received from my colleague, Sarah Vraitch, copies of the reference DNA profiles of Gerald McCann (CB/1), Kate Healy (CB/2), Amelie McCann (SBM/2) and Sean McCann (SBM/3). I have also received a copy of the DNA profile obtained from the possible saliva staining on the pillow case (SJM/1) which is assumed to be the DNA profile of Madeleine McCann.

01-01-Outros Apensos 01Vol I Pages 273 - 274

01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_273

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_274

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Emails

22nd May 2007, 16.06

Dear all,

Please see email below. Could you please push this batch through tonight.

Thanks.

22nd May 2007. 14.58

To: Auto BF Team Leaders

FW: Submission.

All,

See below. We are expecting an unpaid P1 submission from the Madeleine McCann case coming in tonight.

Process supervisor
DNA Trident Court

From: S. Vraitch

22nd May 2007 14.48

Hi,

Just to inform you both that I have an uncharged premium one today to start tomorrow in the case of Madeleine McCann.

The details are as follows:

300655190
400895869

Item SJM/1 - one stain from pillow case for cells.

Many thanks SV
Forensic Scientist.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

01-01-Outros Apensos 01 Vol I Page 275 to 281

B15 Crime Stain Sample Logging Form

Document reference FSS - TP - 234

Priory House

Date submitted: 22-05-2007

Sample type: Saliva (Misc)

Sample category : PI (uncharged)

Number of attempts: One only

Area description: Stain 1 pillowcase.

Comments: To be used as a surrogate reference sample.

Created on 22-05-2007

01_volume_I_o_apenso_I_Page_275

Much appreciated and apologies for taking up so much of your valuable time, I know this is going over very old ground but as I said, the subject has, like so many other aspects of the case, become so embellished by the more imaginative that it's lost all sense of proportion. As I thought, there doesn't appear to be any confirmation from an official source. It's not good enough for me to hear the often repeated chant 'it's all in the files, if only you would read them', without the provision of a link to the files where this information can be found - no one to my knowledge has yet been able to provide that link.

I too have searched extensively in the past for some official verification but without success. So, in the absence of verification I will continue to doubt the provenance of the pillow case and the forensic testing thereof.

howdy

by skyrocket 08.01.16 12:22

Just to summarise for the record (and nothing more), according to the results of the UK forensic tests:

-The DNA profile SJM/1 obtained from the pillowcase matches that produced from the blood sample. This is in the UK forensic reports.

-The DNA profile SJM/1, is proven (29 million times more likely, rather than not) to be from a natural child of both Kate McCann and Gerry McCann. This is in the UK forensic reports.

-The DNA profile SJM/1 does not match the DNA profiles of either Amelie McCann or Sean McCann. This is in the UK forensic reports.

-The DNA profiles of AM and SM show them both to be the natural children of KM and GM. This is in the UK forensic reports.

-The DNA profile SJM/1 is from a female. This is in the UK forensic reports.

-The origins of the pillowcase and the blood sample are not proven, but both contain/carry the DNA (profile SJM/1) of the same individual female who is the natural daughter of KM and GM.

-The DNA profile SJM/1, regardless of its origin, can only be from Madeleine Beth McCann or an unknown natural female sibling.

by joyce1938 08.01.16 16:24

Good work, skyrocket. I have seen that on another forum quite some time ago. I just could not think the tone of people at that time, it was said that both were same dna, the blood spot and the stain. I expect some will find another question on how can that be. joyce1938