Farce: Phone-calls-frame-maddie-kidnappers

Why would a drug trafficker actually rob an apartment?   To me it makes no sense at all.  No evidence of a break in and if say the door was open (as an entry point) and a child awoke I would have thought that run quickly away would be the best plan of action.

yes exactly where did this new peson come from  so now not only seen by a whole family ,but now someone else saw the child being carried ,how is it we have never heard of this before ? joyce1938

CynicAl wrote:They were obviously pitifully poor at drug trafficking. The idea that the numerous traffickers operating across the water from North Africa would do business with anyone who used a traceable, trackable mobile phone before, during and after the kind of crime that would bring entirely the wrong kind of attention is laughable. That the three are even still alive after word of their hobby got out in the criminal fraternity of drug traffickers who are, in that part of the world, largely Muslim or Catholic, nominally at least, with likely qualms about the random murder of children as an evening pastime is nothing short of miraculous. 

They were also terrible burglars it seems... Sod the valuables, take a kid. No? Oh right, the kid was dead. Take a dead kid. Hmmm. That doesn't work either. Ok, they must have made the kid dead... And then took the body... Because a missing kid is less shocking than a dead one when mum and dad stagger home from the bar, right? Errr, wrong. No, so if we take the kid, bury it, clean the place up and no one will know we were ever there and no one will come looking for us! Right... Apart from the missing kid, who is missing, with everyone out looking for them... Screw it... I'm out here carrying this dead kid - god, she's getting heavier - and looking for somewhere to dump her... Now, where... Oh sh1t... Is that a bunch of tourists coming? They sound like they have an Irish accent... What do I do? What do I do? What did the boss say to do? Let me think... Rule 1, don't make any phone calls, rule 2, if you get spotted don't do anything to draw attention to yourself, operate like you're in disguise... I know, I'll just give him a ring and ask where he thinks I should take her... But I'll do it in english so those Irish people won't know what I'm saying...

Wait, wait, I'll have to abandon this dead kid NOW. I can't go back to my two pals with her. Maybe I can take her back to the flat I took her from. I left the shutters open. Should be easy. In the same way I climbed out. And who's that English lady looking at me and making notes? She looks proper shifty. I think I'll just drop the kid here on this wasteland and hope she doesn't notice. Damn. She's seen me. I'm leaving. I need a pee. I think there's a loo at the Ocean Club...

joyce1938 wrote:yes exactly where did this new peson come from  so now not only seen by a whole family ,but now someone else saw the child being carried ,how is it we have never heard of this before ? joyce1938

 
The same as how we didn`t hear of crecheman before I suppose - these people seem to be magicked from nowhere.

Abracadabra - crecheman
Abracadabra - holiday lady

Just a thought ,they are not now speaking about jane tanner and what she said she saw  ,and including tannerman ? is it a mistake ? makes you wonder eh ? when it suits make it fit ? joyce1938

I believe the press are ushering in a new era of unemployment for themselves. Editors clearly never read "The boy who cried wolf" as children. Nor did they heed the truism that the British are slow to anger.

I sense newspapers will pay in the pocket for misleading and misinforming the British public. And I don't want to hear any whining about being muzzled later on. If you are prevented from publishing the truth, the answer is certainly not to publish lies.

Eta  I realise the OP is an article in CdM.

joyce1938 wrote:Just a thought ,they are not now speaking about jane tanner and what she said she saw  ,and including tannerman ? is it a mistake ? makes you wonder eh ? when it suits make it fit ? joyce1938

I was just about to say the same thing Joyce!
What if the English holidaymaker was Jane Tanner?
Even more intriguing, what if this is something she discussed with the others as an alternate sighting or explanation?
And now, IMO, the info has been leaked to the press - so T9 KNOW - IMO JT has been talking to the police.
All IMO.

That's a great comment

" If you are prevented from publishing the truth, the answer is certainly not to publish lies".

Cheshire Cat wrote:Another article which I feel merits its own thread. It's another one of those 'unhelpful' articles.

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English Police say that Maddie McCann assassins are Portuguese and are involved in drug trafficking

by Tânia Laranjo/Rui Pando Gomes

They are Portuguese and have a criminal record for drug trafficking. The English police states that they assaulted the apartment at the Ocean Club resort, in Lagos, and killed Madeleine McCann on 3 May 2007.

The phone calls made before and after the crime were used as evidence to support the searches that have been ongoing since Monday.

Scotland Yard also ensures that there is a British witness who saw one of the men carrying a child in his arms up to the wasteland, situated less than 500 meters from the resort. The British say that he fled, but before he was able to bury the girl's cadaver.

They want to hear the three suspects, but they still lack the evidence to support the claim.

“Those who are going to commit a robbery do not travel on foot and they will not abandon a body so close to the crime scene. Moreover, there were no signs of forced entry at the apartment”, said Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ inspector who investigated the case and considers that this new theory is not credible.

This version is, incidentally, one among others contained in the letter rogatory which determined that the searches would take place. Though it is the strongest, the British open the door to other possibilities. Other five suspects are listed, they also have a criminal record for theft. 

Seven years after the disappearance, the British police now guarantees to the Public Prosecutor's Office that their claim was well founded. The description given by a British holidaymaker coincides with one of the suspects who lives nearby. The woman saw him speaking in English on the phone, as he passed, carrying the child in his arms.

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Before people start shouting at me about Smithman not existing (because they KNOW he didn't) , I would like to point out we are not necessarily in possession of all the facts.

This new "sighting" could be a load of drivel, or it could be info we have not been party to,  up to now.

If I remember correctly there was a lot of discussion about who had drawn up the e-fits of Smithman, as the Smiths were not supposed to have seen his face clearly. AR said Smithman was a revelation. He  said the Smiths had seen a man carrying a child and that the e-fits  had been draw with the help of witnesses, but never actually said those witnesses were the Smiths AND he never said the Smiths were the only witnesses to see a man carrying a child.

Is it possible that somewhere in the non-published PJ documents, or the information the McCanns suppressed,  there are actually other sightings of a man with child and that witnesses other than the Smiths  drew up the e-fits of a man carrying a child? Maybe the Smiths fabricated their sighting as TB thinks, BUT maybe there was a man seen carrying a child by other people.  Perhaps Smithman is a misnomer?

AR also said the phone records were important. Perhaps phone pings from a certain individual (man carrying child, on phone,  speaking English) , put him exactly where a different holiday maker witnessed a man carrying a child, placed him on  this scrub land, show him moving  off  quickly?

I still think the McCanns know exactly what happened, but it could easily have been someone else carrying the child away. Kate's  phrase "they've taken her", if it was ever said, is most bizarre.

Was Sergei Malinka completely ruled out? He's not dissimilar to the second e-fit although perhaps a little young and was  there not a discussion  of him being on the phone to RM from 10-10:30?

As an aside, I have no idea if Tannerman existed, or was a necessary invention of JT's to divert attention, BUT I find it strange that  a lot of people dismiss  AR's Tannerman on the grounds no-one has 6 year old PJ's. I  have 3 daughters with 6.5 years between them. They grew very quickly and rarely  wore clothes out  and I would have been able to produce my eldest's 6 year old PJ's no problem, as my youngest would be wearing them.

Finally,  drug traffickers tend to have money and cars (round where I live  they have really , really nice cars), so is it likely drug traffickers would walk/carry anything, anywhere? Even their minions have transport.

Anyhow - why would drug traffickers murder a child and then hang around for an hour while cadaver odour developed, be flat enough to hide behind the bedroom door when GM looked in, then pick up the dead child and skiddadle out of it ...... oh, and, before leaving, giving the apartment a deep clean to get rid of all traces of themselves.

@ FH  - Good points :-

"Was Sergei Malinka completely ruled out? He's not dissimilar to the second e-fit although perhaps a little young and was  there not a discussion  of him being on the phone to RM from 10-10:30? "  and RM - both of them lived nearby

"Finally,  drug traffickers tend to have money and cars (round where I live  they have really , really nice cars), so is it likely drug traffickers would walk/carry anything, anywhere? Even their minions have transport." - excellent point.

Hi ,the pyjamas of the child we were shown in sketch are nothing like the ones we saw held up from M and a spencers ,thet looked more like fleece over clothes ,you might use  over p j if cold night . So what ever it doesn't match what we have been led to believe she was wearing  that night,dont know what to believe anymore. joyce1938

I wondered initially if Smithman was a panic set up as GM thought that perhaps Jez Wilkins had seen tannerman who was in fact genuinely carrying MM

DRug traffickers take risks in their line of business but not that sort of risk!

Cheshire Cat wrote:Another article which I feel merits its own thread. It's another one of those 'unhelpful' articles.

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English Police say that Maddie McCann assassins are Portuguese and are involved in drug trafficking

by Tânia Laranjo/Rui Pando Gomes

They are Portuguese and have a criminal record for drug trafficking. The English police states that they assaulted the apartment at the Ocean Club resort, in Lagos, and killed Madeleine McCann on 3 May 2007.

The phone calls made before and after the crime were used as evidence to support the searches that have been ongoing since Monday.

Scotland Yard also ensures that there is a British witness who saw one of the men carrying a child in his arms up to the wasteland, situated less than 500 meters from the resort. The British say that he fled, but before he was able to bury the girl's cadaver.

They want to hear the three suspects, but they still lack the evidence to support the claim.

“Those who are going to commit a robbery do not travel on foot and they will not abandon a body so close to the crime scene. Moreover, there were no signs of forced entry at the apartment”, said Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ inspector who investigated the case and considers that this new theory is not credible.

This version is, incidentally, one among others contained in the letter rogatory which determined that the searches would take place. Though it is the strongest, the British open the door to other possibilities. Other five suspects are listed, they also have a criminal record for theft. 

Seven years after the disappearance, the British police now guarantees to the Public Prosecutor's Office that their claim was well founded. The description given by a British holidaymaker coincides with one of the suspects who lives nearby. The woman saw him speaking in English on the phone, as he passed, carrying the child in his arms.

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In my opinion you candismiss this whole atricle by the sentence benath:

" Scotland Yard also ensures that there is a British witness who saw one of the men carrying a child in his arms up to the wasteland, situated less than 500 meters from the resort. The British say that he fled, but before he was able to bury the girl's cadaver."

So where is the girl's cadaver as he has just fled? It shpould have lain there for 7 years.

Oh- hang on a minute though he could have come back for it when the coast was clear say after the case was closed. Complete tosh!

There will be many more articles like this in the next few weeks I fear. Possibly from a certain source.

Blacksmiths latest article is spot on. Because the MSM couldn't be **sed to read the files in the first place they are now relying on title tattle
from the web and making stories up from that - pro stories or anti stories any will do.

I hope SY are laughing at this tale. If they aren't then you know which way this is going.

p.s. The US Security Services are designing software to detect " sarcastic comments " on Twitter etc. They should in my humble opinion
design software for irony ( as apparently Americans don't do irony) and then test the system on all the web traffic re: The Disappearance of Madeleine McCann. That will be the ultimate test for this system.

p.p.s. Re: Unknowns in the PJ files.

Does anyone think that possibly soil samples were recovered from 5a or the Scenic or shoes and this has what has led them to dig where they are digging?

Also if following telephone times and pings can they track by time and distance travelled between calls? For example if I make a call  from my mobile at point A and make another call from the same phone at point B would that indicate approximately the distance I have walked between calls from point A to B?

If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters). The haste with which Gerry's brother set up the Fund. 

Money always seemed to be a big motive, imo. As long as it was other people's money. Were they accommodated free or at least at reduced cost for some of the time after Madeleine's disappearance? They certainly carried on using the creche for the twins which, I do believe, was even kept open on some Saturdays (change-over day so usually closed) especially for the twins? I bet this was a cut-price deal, if not free, seeing as the McCann's had an aversion to spending money on childcare. 

I have also read that the Ocean Club provided them with free food, meals and wine. Not sure what the exact deal was. 

But it is notable in Kate's book that one day she writes that they had to pick up the twins themselves from the creche! As though somehow having gained celebrity status as parents of an abducted child the couple would henceforth be waited upon by servants and butlers and handled with kid gloves!

Page 111: "When lunchtime came, Gerry and I were in the middle of another meeting when we discovered there was no on around to collect Sean and Amelie. We had to interrupt proceedings and to the Toddler Club ourselves, phoning round our friends and family en route to try to get somebody who wasn't too far away to come back and give them their lunch."

Yes - child-care was never the Mcs forte, not even having lunch with your children!

So it's all follow the money with the MT. 

Why did Kate cry out 'they have taken her' that evening, as reported by eye-witnesses. Why did she tell Yvette Martin, the social worker, that a couple had taken Madeleine?

It's all so dodgy.

So I would not be surprised at all if 'it' - whatever exactly 'it' is -  involved some kind of cocktail of drugs (prescription or otherwise) trafficking, sex, abuse, pornography, money laundering (The Fund) profiting from crime.........

....have I missed anything out?

The McCanns themselves and their friends often cited paedaphilia as a motive for the abduction. Which always struck me as odd. Until I read more about the case. 

Just theorizing.

If drugs are in the equation.  Then may be that's how she dies by accidentally getting hold of them.  Now in "theory"  the group have a dead drugged infant - All who are involved are in it up to their necks - the dealers and any of the group for whom the drugs were for.  All would have to work together to get her out or loose everything.  Just a theory - sounds like a fiction plot for book. 

I have never thought that any of the group deliberately harmed her - off course I may be proved wrong.

Cheshire Cat wrote:Another article which I feel merits its own thread. It's another one of those 'unhelpful' articles.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

English Police say that Maddie McCann assassins are Portuguese and are involved in drug trafficking

by Tânia Laranjo/Rui Pando Gomes

They are Portuguese and have a criminal record for drug trafficking. The English police states that they assaulted the apartment at the Ocean Club resort, in Lagos, and killed Madeleine McCann on 3 May 2007.

The phone calls made before and after the crime were used as evidence to support the searches that have been ongoing since Monday.

Scotland Yard also ensures that there is a British witness who saw one of the men carrying a child in his arms up to the wasteland, situated less than 500 meters from the resort. The British say that he fled, but before he was able to bury the girl's cadaver.

They want to hear the three suspects, but they still lack the evidence to support the claim.

“Those who are going to commit a robbery do not travel on foot and they will not abandon a body so close to the crime scene. Moreover, there were no signs of forced entry at the apartment”, said Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ inspector who investigated the case and considers that this new theory is not credible.

This version is, incidentally, one among others contained in the letter rogatory which determined that the searches would take place. Though it is the strongest, the British open the door to other possibilities. Other five suspects are listed, they also have a criminal record for theft. 

Seven years after the disappearance, the British police now guarantees to the Public Prosecutor's Office that their claim was well founded. The description given by a British holidaymaker coincides with one of the suspects who lives nearby. The woman saw him speaking in English on the phone, as he passed, carrying the child in his arms.

in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Actually, this is good news indeed, if true. In fact, it's progress. I'll explain why in a moment.

Initial thoughts on the report, and I'm aware some of them may be just pedantic responses to statements which are 'lost in translation.'

Opening line: 'They are Portuguese and have a criminal record for drug trafficking.' That doesn't make them 'drug traffickers.' It also doesn't necessarily follow that ALL of them have that criminal record. They might have a very diverse criminal history. They might, in fact, be well known locally for being 'facilitators' of all things murky. Well known to people, perhaps, who have the initials RM, SM, MW, EM. Well known for supplying special tablets that help 'party night' go a little faster for young English employees of those dreadful holiday resorts in Mediterranean climates.

Have many not said all along that the Mc's had to have help on the ground, and it sure as hell wasn't an MI5 clean up crew or a CIA wetwork team?

Those inclined to provide services and assistance in the underworld are rarely one-trick ponies.

Second line: '...assault on the apartment.' What assault? There wasn't an assault. There is precisely zero evidence of an assault. Nor a raid. Nor a burglary. If that gang was in that apartment, it's because someone intended for them to be there in such a way that they would not draw attention to themselves going in. I'm sure whoever organised it is looking back with hindsight and cursing themselves for lacking the genius of actually insisting on a staged burglary and a forced entry.

Third line: 'phone calls made before and after the crime...' OK, so SY has to have a very specific window that they can prove to the Portuguese authorities. They also have to be able to place and trace all those phone signals specifically. This means that they also know who - outside of the three - had contact within or without PDL. Because one thing is sure - even wannabe 'drug traffickers' who are aware that the police are watching out for them because of their 'criminal record' do not engage in escalated crime while still using their old mobile phones with speeddial entries in the contact book listing 'Henchman, Godfather, Kingpin, Hitter and Forensic Level Cleaner'. They didn't suddenly decide to turn their hand to burglarising a holiday apartment which is repeatedly (every 15-30 minutes) attended by adult tourists and occupied by children with occupied residencies above, below and around, at an 'active' time of the evening, as an act of sponteneity, luckily chancing on one with a door left open, and leaving everything except a single dead child. If they went in that apartment, they had a reason to be in that apartment - a reason that was fulfilled by the extremely careful removal of only one object.

The rest sort of descends into nonsense. The English female witness (hmmm) sees him carrying a child, clearly doing so in such a way that he draws attention, sees him enter the wasteland, and sees him flee.

BUT, on the bright side... to be specific SY must have a really astounding track on confirming the sighting. They have the witness location, giving the track of the suspect, and the godsend of all godsends, HE WAS ON THE PHONE AT THE TIME. Which means they've got pings like crazy, and either the unexplained witness saw him rush into the brush with a child and then scurry out in a hurry without one (no explanation for why the witness didn't think of raising the subject at the time) or the PJ, before SY, must have phone records demonstrating that the individual was indeed where the witness said, did indeed enter the snail area, and did indeed leave far too quickly to have performed the last rites and a burial.

Most important of all, out of the three suspects, the odds of all of them being dead are preposterous. They're alive, and able to speak. In fact, if this is legitimately in the media, then they've already been spoken to, because the PJ aren't waiting for SY to pitch up two weeks after it was leaked to the press and then gape in wonder at the 'To Let' sign hanging on the outside of the Henchman's Lair.

Even more important than that is that our 'suspect' is apparently as white as the Milky Bar Kid, easy to spot because he looks so much like GM, speaks perfect English in spite of being native Portuguese, and is not a dead Cape Verdean farmer. I can imagine that the PJ would also like to talk to him to see if there are any dots to be connected to how a formerly living Cape Verdean farmer managed to end up beneath a tractor a few inconvenient years ago. So we have a living, white, English speaking suspect who lives locally. Makes you wonder what the police are waiting for. But I'll bet money that he's known to someone with the initials RM.

GA kind of understated his response, although the article sets an interesting precedent for consulting GA for his opinion on the latest discoveries, demonstrating that Lisbon and the PJ will have no end of trouble keeping him quiet if they do happen to be whitewashing or coming up with anything less than a credible answer. He said that someone committing a burglary would not dispose of a body close to the crime scene. I think he's omitted to make reference to any cases where someone committing a burglary has EVER taken a body away for disposal in anything resembling a predictable, profile-able case of routine burglarising (other than bodysnatching, of course). He's also right that any degree of organised criminality targeting 5a - kidnap, murder, a threat against an indebted druggie, burglary, pedophile abduction - would almost certainly involve a vehicle.

This 'scenario', albeit the stuff of crimewriters dreams, does raise some very interesting points that we can take some encouragement from.

Logical deduction tells us that the Portuguese authorities are not bending over for just any old whim. They require convincing. The statement also says that this theory is one of several in the ILOR's. So, either the CPS and SY have formulated a laundry list of possible scenarios and gone with a lucky dip, or the reason for the number of scenarios presented to the authorities are not what the UK want to pursue per se, but rather the scenarios that they've seen an opportunity to rule out. Arguably they could pursue these AND keep the gruesome twosome duly informed on a stage by stage basis right up until they utter the words "so as you can see, we've pursued and exhausted every possibility, investigated every suspect and are right back to square one... which just leaves...."

There's another ray of hope too. The article, if it proved to be even partially accurate, actually rules nothing out. SY could well be digging holes all over Portugal looking for traces of three drug trafficking child-murdering burglars who dabble in budget undertaking and are exceptional cleaners. It seems that every time they dig a hole and look in it, there are a couple of little Portuguese guys that seem to look in it with them. Doesn't matter who SY are looking for traces of. If the PJ are looking for traces of Glaswegian or Liverpudlian, the British public, nor the McCann's, have any right whatsoever to that information, which is clearly protected by judicial secrecy.

One thing is sure. Something has made the Portuguese authorities agree to this outrageous and preposterous display, and I don't believe for a moment that it is plotlines from third rate pulp fiction novels that are securing their co-operation. I have to believe that in long careers all of these people have some degree of professional pride and conviction for their work. To make a mockery of it, to actively assist in facilitating the escape of the known perpetrators, or to blunder over the facts uncovered by a prior investigation and a team of sterling sniffers would be totally and utterly incredulous in the long term, not to mention insanely risky should the governments of either country be changed in the future for reformists who take a dim view of what has been happening.

So where does it leave us? Well, there is either a second white male who looks like GM and was wandering the streets of PDL clutching a child to his chest, we'll call him NotSmithman. Or there is only one, Smithman. Either way, for this story to be true there has to be a second witness, since the Smith testimonies make no mention of anyone speaking English on a mobile phone. The only thing that the 'story' does confirm - either as a cover story or as the real deal - is that SY are on the snail because of intelligence that tells them that something that they're desperately seeking is on, in, under or has been to the snail, and that something has a strong likelihood of having left a trace of itself.

The double affirmation of a Smithman or NotSmithman continues along the line of ruling out Tannerman. The insistence that the suspect was seen with a child, and witnessed (somehow) dumping said child in the vicinity of the snail before legging it, and looks like Smithman/GMLookalikeMan makes a whitewash less likely. Why? Because if whitewash was intended, in defence of the Mc's, and the 'investigation' was inevitably intended to draw a blank which was followed up by MBM being declared legally dead, with the fund to continue in private for those who believe the parents, the easiest way to achieve it would have been to affirm Tannerman, draw blanks with little or no further investigation, save £10m, let the fund continue to fundraise but extricate SY and UKGov from any obligation to expend further resources (in other words 'tell K&G that this is the end of the line, and to STFU and accept the SY exit strategy before we crucify them out of sheer irritation') and let it all go the way of Ben Needham.

It still appears AR is pursuing lines, whether they make sense to us or not, which take TM uncomfortably away from the accounts and suspects that they have pursued for seven years. That's like a symbolic removal of control, and whether it is a ruse or not, it clearly has them rattled. The radio silence of certain members of their intellectual advance team is utterly deafening.

And after all, a living suspect is fantastic news for those fearing a whitewash. You can't easily frame a living suspect when such a weight of evidence is already in the public arena and points in a wholly different direction. The only patsy for this case would be a dead patsy. It is almost certain that PDL itself harbours secrets pertaining to what happened last night. Personalities in local organised crime will inevitably know more than Nana Public, and they won't go down quietly for something they're stitched up for. In fact, even if they were facilitators rather than perpetrators, I doubt they were paid anything like enough money to go down for a murder rap while biting their tongue.

This, actually, necessarily brings us - if its true - closer to answers than we were yesterday, and would certainly make the discomfort level in Rothley more tangible, knotted by uncertainty.

Additional discrepancies to consider...

The suspect was carrying a 4 year old child... and talking on a mobile phone in English? How? Was this individual wearing a bluetooth headset? A wired headset? He was 'talking on the phone' while 'carrying the child in his arms.' Was his third arm holding the phone? If a headset was not visible, could he - wild idea - have been talking to the child? If he had a wired headset, what kind of wired headset? Common or garden, bundled in a box? Or tucked away professionally down a shirt? Was he speaking on a phone, or a radio pack? The answer to these questions yields at least three very pertinent profiles of the individual being sought, not all of which are compatible with 'local drug trafficker.'

And am I the only one incredulous at the idea that this town, smaller than my own sleepy rural paradise, is apparently brimming with drug traffickers, murderers, kidnappers, burglars, all known to the local police but protected by an invisible network of corruption and complicity, well-connected with lookouts and observers, facilitators, cleaners like you've never seen and so on. Makes the place sound like Bogota.

noddy100 wrote:I wondered initially if Smithman was a panic set up as GM thought that perhaps Jez Wilkins had seen tannerman who was in fact genuinely carrying MM

I've sometimes wondered if 'Tannerman' was concocted by Jane Tanner as a decoy as Tannerman was, in actual fact, Jane Tanner carrying Madeleine. She needed to cover her tracks in case anyone had seen her. Plus create confusion.  Plus give herself a few alibis in the form of Gerry and Jez (even if they didn't see her - that just adds to the confusion I suppose). 

At one point Jane Tanner does say: 'I was carrying' in relation to Tannerman. And she is very vague about descriptions, I think even about the gender. 

I know there have been many analyses of how people lie, but the consensus seems to be that it is best to stick as closely as possible to a version of the truth. 

In the 'Madeleine was Here' reconstruction, she gives an incredibly unconvincing performance when she talks about how she walked up the road and saw the man carrying the child. She speaks very glibly saying words to the effect of  it was so obvious that what she saw was a man abducting a child. I find the whole episode entirely fake and it just screams out as being a complete con, imo.

j.rob wrote:If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters).....

Deleted

russiandoll wrote:Imo phone traffic analysis has played a large part in why the police are searching particular locations and it is to do with a man speaking his native English.

OK. Here's another wild thought (not wild at all, if you knew some of the people I've known)...

Connecting the dots, of a case that the PJ have investigated to a logical conclusion, but lack the complete evidence to secure a conviction... IIRC one of the brick walls that the PJ hit (and also IIRC SY were advising them early on to watch the T9, gruesome twosome especially) was that of obtaining phone records.

What if... and it's a big what if...

What if the calls WERE all recorded? What if they WERE captured? What if they were the property of another agency altogether? What if there was an organisation which routinely monitored phone calls in and out of southern Spain and other 'interesting' regions inhabited by the wealthy and the criminalistic alike, particularly ones conducted in English language, and captured recordings of those calls in giant servers, flagging some for computer analysis, and others for escalated human intervention? What if that organisation had already been acknowledged publicly (news media) for their contribution to catching a British organised criminal who had fled justice and was living in Malaga, wanted by the police (really, really wanted), and who was captured directly as a result of that agency having been able to identify his voice, through computer analysis, or a telephone call from a mobile phone that was unsecured, in English? What if that organisation was based at one of the most controversial and secretive 'facilities' in Europe, located in North Yorkshire? What if their involvement in certain cases was only revealed courtesy of them being made a matter of record in the smallprint of court transcripts of successful prosecutions, after the fact? What if their involvement was SO sensitive because it involved the routine capture of masses of conversations as a matter of course, rather than any process of linetapping arising from a judicial process? What if they were not a law enforcement agency, and they possessed information which could give law enforcement agencies hints, where the case was important enough, of how close on the trail they were, or what lines they should go down, in order to find more solid, court-admissable evidence which was not in and of itself grounds for a public controversy or a diplomatic incident?

What if Big Brother was watching?

What if Big Brother told Little Brother that he was warm and getting warmer, but just couldn't give him the printout of the map to prove it? What if someone said 'we can confirm you're on the right lines, now all you have to do is get clever enough to find a way to prove it?'

I know what you'll say...

You'll say 'No Such Agency.'

And of course, officially, informally, in terms of what is possible and what is really happening, you'd be right.

But what a dream...

What a fantasy...

What if they really DID have the phone evidence to pin a tail on the donkey, but they just couldn't use it?

PDA (pretty damned accurate) geolocation would come in really useful, wouldn't it? Oh, but what a panic if every mal-intentional citizen were to ever think that his phone conversations could have been recorded long before he was ever in the frame for a crime that he might have been involved in?

In fact, the panic in general, for people wanting to do all kind of well-intentioned, democratically autonomous things, like voting, protesting, discussing business, speculating, ranting and raving, cursing Queen and Country, whistleblowing... To imagine for a moment that all your phone calls were like content on some state of the art catch-up TV service. Could any government be so calculating as to anticipate the need to be able to do that to their own people's calls? To envisage the day when law enforcement could pick up a suspect, sit them in a room and say 'what did you say in that call you made... no... no need to answer that... let me just play it back for you.'

And if... IF they had that, do you think they'd be in a hurry to reveal such a thing going on? Or would it be better off being a little diplomatic secret weapon between allies? After all, it is illegal for a European to routinely surveille a European, or a Brit a Brit... But a citizen of a non-EU nation, working for a non-EU organisation could surely be exempt from the rules, no?

Naz_Nomad wrote:

j.rob wrote:If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters).....

 Philip Green, Richard Branson, Brian Kennedy....You don't get to be a billionaire by being honest.

I know English is not your first language.

Surely you meant Philip Greene, Richard Branston and Brien Kennedy?

endgame wrote:

Cheshire Cat wrote:Another article which I feel merits its own thread. It's another one of those 'unhelpful' articles.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

English Police say that Maddie McCann assassins are Portuguese and are involved in drug trafficking

by Tânia Laranjo/Rui Pando Gomes

They are Portuguese and have a criminal record for drug trafficking. The English police states that they assaulted the apartment at the Ocean Club resort, in Lagos, and killed Madeleine McCann on 3 May 2007.

The phone calls made before and after the crime were used as evidence to support the searches that have been ongoing since Monday.

Scotland Yard also ensures that there is a British witness who saw one of the men carrying a child in his arms up to the wasteland, situated less than 500 meters from the resort. The British say that he fled, but before he was able to bury the girl's cadaver.

They want to hear the three suspects, but they still lack the evidence to support the claim.

“Those who are going to commit a robbery do not travel on foot and they will not abandon a body so close to the crime scene. Moreover, there were no signs of forced entry at the apartment”, said Gonçalo Amaral, the former PJ inspector who investigated the case and considers that this new theory is not credible.

This version is, incidentally, one among others contained in the letter rogatory which determined that the searches would take place. Though it is the strongest, the British open the door to other possibilities. Other five suspects are listed, they also have a criminal record for theft. 

Seven years after the disappearance, the British police now guarantees to the Public Prosecutor's Office that their claim was well founded. The description given by a British holidaymaker coincides with one of the suspects who lives nearby. The woman saw him speaking in English on the phone, as he passed, carrying the child in his arms.

in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I don't know why this story is receiving so little attention and comment. If true [big if as always], it is the most significant statement on the case in months. It takes you right to the heart of the SY investigation, requests for info etc. and drives a complete coach and horses through all the theories that SY are pursuing some master strategy to catch the McCanns. It says quite clearly that they have evolved a theory of bungled robbery [their "strongest"] and are now looking for evidence to fit that theory. That is the whole purpose of their being in PdL right now. It supports all those who believe either that this is a whitewash or that AR is a complete dingbat thrashing around and completely out of his depth. It also strongly shows that the investigation has got absolutely nowhere in the last three years and that all the whacky stories one keeps reading in the tabloids are actually the mainstream thinking of SY. Time may yet tell that everything that AR is reported to have said and done shoud be taken at face value and not assumed to be part of the cleverest deception ever practiced by a serving policeman.

Complete correct!  No way can this be held to support the McCann Master Strategy theory. 

This is diversion with a capital D.  If they can look at these suspects on such flimsy "evidence" why are they restricting their inquiries so much.

jeanmonroe wrote:

Naz_Nomad wrote:

j.rob wrote:If you look at the people that the McCanns surrounded themselves with following their daughter's disappearance, they are not the most savoury of characters. Experts in money laundering, crooked private detective/s - some of them verging on gangsters (if not gangsters).....

 Philip Green, Richard Branson, Brian Kennedy....You don't get to be a billionaire by being honest.

I know English is not your first language.

Surely you meant Philip Greene, Richard Branston and Brien Kennedy?

English is my first language, but yes, I meant those people, as the first three are 100% honest and trustworthy chaps.

Can one of the drug dealers be Serg** Mali**a?

CynicAl wrote:

russiandoll wrote:Imo phone traffic analysis has played a large part in why the police are searching particular locations and it is to do with a man speaking his native English.

OK. Here's another wild thought (not wild at all, if you knew some of the people I've known)...

Connecting the dots, of a case that the PJ have investigated to a logical conclusion, but lack the complete evidence to secure a conviction... IIRC one of the brick walls that the PJ hit (and also IIRC SY were advising them early on to watch the T9, gruesome twosome especially) was that of obtaining phone records.

What if... and it's a big what if...

What if the calls WERE all recorded? What if they WERE captured? What if they were the property of another agency altogether? What if there was an organisation which routinely monitored phone calls in and out of southern Spain and other 'interesting' regions inhabited by the wealthy and the criminalistic alike, particularly ones conducted in English language, and captured recordings of those calls in giant servers, flagging some for computer analysis, and others for escalated human intervention? What if that organisation had already been acknowledged publicly (news media) for their contribution to catching a British organised criminal who had fled justice and was living in Malaga, wanted by the police (really, really wanted), and who was captured directly as a result of that agency having been able to identify his voice, through computer analysis, or a telephone call from a mobile phone that was unsecured, in English? What if that organisation was based at one of the most controversial and secretive 'facilities' in Europe, located in North Yorkshire? What if their involvement in certain cases was only revealed courtesy of them being made a matter of record in the smallprint of court transcripts of successful prosecutions, after the fact? What if their involvement was SO sensitive because it involved the routine capture of masses of conversations as a matter of course, rather than any process of linetapping arising from a judicial process? What if they were not a law enforcement agency, and they possessed information which could give law enforcement agencies hints, where the case was important enough, of how close on the trail they were, or what lines they should go down, in order to find more solid, court-admissable evidence which was not in and of itself grounds for a public controversy or a diplomatic incident?

What if Big Brother was watching?

What if Big Brother told Little Brother that he was warm and getting warmer, but just couldn't give him the printout of the map to prove it? What if someone said 'we can confirm you're on the right lines, now all you have to do is get clever enough to find a way to prove it?'

I know what you'll say...

You'll say 'No Such Agency.'

And of course, officially, informally, in terms of what is possible and what is really happening, you'd be right.

But what a dream...

What a fantasy...

What if they really DID have the phone evidence to pin a tail on the donkey, but they just couldn't use it?

PDA (pretty damned accurate) geolocation would come in really useful, wouldn't it? Oh, but what a panic if every mal-intentional citizen were to ever think that his phone conversations could have been recorded long before he was ever in the frame for a crime that he might have been involved in?

In fact, the panic in general, for people wanting to do all kind of well-intentioned, democratically autonomous things, like voting, protesting, discussing business, speculating, ranting and raving, cursing Queen and Country, whistleblowing... To imagine for a moment that all your phone calls were like content on some state of the art catch-up TV service. Could any government be so calculating as to anticipate the need to be able to do that to their own people's calls? To envisage the day when law enforcement could pick up a suspect, sit them in a room and say 'what did you say in that call you made... no... no need to answer that... let me just play it back for you.'

And if... IF they had that, do you think they'd be in a hurry to reveal such a thing going on? Or would it be better off being a little diplomatic secret weapon between allies? After all, it is illegal for a European to routinely surveille a European, or a Brit a Brit... But a citizen of a non-EU nation, working for a non-EU organisation could surely be exempt from the rules, no?

Not Sure About that. Could I Ask someone else?

Would this be the same three drug dealers that might of been IN 5A  the PREVIOUS night but didn't take anything?

Who made Maddie and Sean cry?

Who then came BACK the next night, because they wouldn't possibly be seen by anyone, THAT night.

Wonder WHY 'they' didn't take a child on the previous night (Wednesday) when they might actually have been in the kids room with NO 'parents, babysitters,or 'friends' there?

But RISKED being 'caught' the next night.

   

riskybuisness wrote:If drugs are in the equation.  Then may be that's how she dies by accidentally getting hold of them.  Now in "theory"  the group have a dead drugged infant - All who are involved are in it up to their necks - the dealers and any of the group for whom the drugs were for.  All would have to work together to get her out or loose everything.  Just a theory - sounds like a fiction plot for book. 

I have never thought that any of the group deliberately harmed her - off course I may be proved wrong.

Credible theory.

I speculated yesterday that the Mc's were 'enabled' by people on the ground, around the MC/OC business, who may have been privately organising certain types of activities with the help of 'travel agents' like RM and SM, which OC management turned a blind eye to because it brought numbers in at down season, making management look good. When something went tragically wrong, I speculated that someone somewhere, either a management beneficiary or the 'facilitators' themselves concluded that the matter needed clearing up PDQ, without management or corporate knowing about the what or the how of it... Perhaps indeed a plethora of individuals played large or small parts, through a web of need-to-know and plausible deniability, for not only personal financial gain (did GM or TM promise lots of bungs that then needed to be paid, hence the dearth of money for the mortgage and the need for a flowing fund of cash seemingly handed out by crooked PI's from Spain and the UK) but also to evade culpability, prosecution, loss of job, or the addition of 'covered up accidental death and helped dispose of a body and commit massive fraud while lying to the police all on company property, company time and as salaried employees' to their 'reason for leaving last job' in their CV.

After all, you only have to watch late night television to see that so many of these holiday resorts in Yahoo Johnny suntrap destinations across the Mediterranean region are continually living on the edge of complete and utter recklessness as they facilitate and encourage the kind of rampant orgy of sex and alcohol (and drugs) that is ubiquitous in those places. It isn't hard to imagine a bunch of enterprising 'reps' hatching some kind of a Hollywood 'stoner/college' movie plot plan to draw in a 'special' class of tourist, with the nod and the wink of some young thing who likes the idea that they too might get to cop off with some fit older person with no strings attached for a 'bit of fun', and then when something goes wrong, who do they turn to short of going home disgraced and facing criminal charges? The local gangsters and dealers and petty thieves, the people who they know are always up for earning a bit of extra cash or doing a bit of extra business.

Not remotely far fetched. In fact, far more likely than imagining the CIA or MI5 were swarming the ground covering up some heavyweight political pedophile.

@Naz...

You can phone a friend, but be careful what you say.