Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[russiandoll]

How in the name of God would you bury a cow and who would drive a cow from a rural area and bury it in a town?  How big would the hole need to be fgs?!

[DurhamGuy1967]

How in the name of God would you bury a cow and who would drive a cow from a rural area and bury it in a town?  How big would the hole need to be fgs?!

Probably left overs from a BBQ. There was Roman activity in the area so some stuff could date way back.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

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In the above article there is this paragraph:

'Forensic archaeologists also painstakingly began sifting through soil at the bottom of a hidden pit. Sniffer dogs had found the five-foot-by-three-foot hole under wooden planks, corrugated iron sheets and soil 24 hours earlier.'

Five feet by three feet is a pretty big hole.

Cadaver dogs alerted to it by the sounds of it.

[Dutchgirl]

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[Pershing36]

I am sure they will find plenty of bones if this scrub land was  a place were people buried their dead animals. 

Yes but it sounds important!

We went to some wasteland, immediately found an area of interest.  Erected some tents and dug and guess what we found bones and a news paper headline.  Alas they turned out to be animal bones but just how good were we to find remains in such a short time.

It is a massive site and they have dug a tiny bit, now if it follows what the local papers say they will search a few other bits then move on.  This seems to have to be completed to a time schedule (which is boastfully been increased) not till a thorough job has been done.  If this achieves nothing then no doubt we will get 'well the Portuguese authorities only allowed us this amount of time'.

Will the next 7 days be that area of wasteland or are they moving on towards the other areas they wanted to dig?  

For a search that wasn't meant to have a running commentary we have loads of pictures of detectives, dogs, tents, holes covered by corrugated iron and reports of bones.

I am sorry I think this is all a crock to justify the amount of money spent with no apparent results so far.

Cast your minds back, they did this in Kos with the Ben Needham case when nobody believed he was buried in that field.  They went anyway, with the press, dug and found nothing.

[russiandoll]

Agreed  : if this tabloid report is accurate it has to be animal bones from food leftovers... but it will be misunderstood due to the reports this was a burial site for animals, hence my tongue in cheek comments !

[paddinton]

BBC News 
"Portuguese police sources told the BBC the search might be extended if there was a significant find." 

The Telegraph 
"British police hunting for clues in the case of missing Madeleine McCann have asked for more time to continue their searches around Praia da Luz."

[Tony Bennett]

I am sure they will find plenty of bones if this scrub land was  a place were people buried their dead animals. 

Yes but it sounds important!

We went to some wasteland, immediately found an area of interest.  Erected some tents and dug and guess what we found bones and a news paper headline.  Alas they turned out to be animal bones but just how good were we to find remains in such a short time.

@ Pershing36

The same 'trick' worked well at the Arade Dam in 2008.

Why not try it again in 2014 in Praia da Luz?

[Guest]

I am sure they will find plenty of bones if this scrub land was  a place were people buried their dead animals. 

Yes but it sounds important!

We went to some wasteland, immediately found an area of interest.  Erected some tents and dug and guess what we found bones and a news paper headline.  Alas they turned out to be animal bones but just how good were we to find remains in such a short time.

@ Pershing36

The same 'trick' worked well at the Arade Dam in 2008.

Why not try it again in 2014 in Praia da Luz?

The Arade Dam in 2008 was a private endeavor by that guy who turned out working for The Fund, not a large scale police operation like this.

[Tony Bennett]

The Arade Dam in 2008 was a private endeavour by that guy who turned out to be working for The Fund, not a large scale police operation like this.

Arade Dam 2008

Search for Madeleine's remains

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Search for Madeleine's remains


Arade Dam 2008

Bones found: cameras on hand to record bones being found

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Bones apparently found: cameras on hand to record bones being found



Arade Dam 2008

Bones were merely animal bones

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Bones might be merely aninal bones


Arade Dam 2008

Search funded by McCann Team via Brian Kennedy via Metodo 3 via Marcos Correia, who twice lied about his source of funding and his reason for gettng involved
 
Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Search funded by Operation Grange, a review/investigation requested by the McCanns 


Arade Dam 2008

Van, team of several divers, Metodo 3 detectives on hand, operation directed by lawyer, bones analysed by Portuguese Police

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Several vans, dogs, 30-plus police officers, augurs, ground-penetrating radar, operation directed by mid-ranking detective, any bones to be analysed by police.


A difference in scale, I agree.

But not many other differences

[petunia]

With rolling 24/7 news channels and up to the minute reports from online newspapers, of course we are going to see what they want us to see,it brings in viewers and it sells newspapers.But in my mind i am thinking why send what seems to be the entire staff of OG to Portugal and make them do all that back breaking work knowing it's all for a whitewash? (i know the government have no respect how my hard work tax is spent) IMO if i see our Kate and Gerry appearing at a news conference in the next couple of days saying how grateful they are for what the PJ and SY are doing then i will admit defeat and say it's all for show to whitewash it until then...

[utahagen]

NickE wrote: "Maybe SY/PJ already have what they were looking for. SY extends stay because PJ and SY want to finish this case together and welcome Gerry to Portugal on June 16."

Exactly what I'm thinking. I predict PJ and SY won't tip their hands before Gerry Arrives in Portugal. Of course, the question is: will Gerry McCann even come to Portugal as planned on June 16? And, if he doesn't, will he forfeit the libel case? Also, if he doesn't come, what will he give as his reason for not coming?

[Guest]

The Arade Dam in 2008 was a private endeavour by that guy who turned out to be working for The Fund, not a large scale police operation like this.

Arade Dam 2008

Search for Madeleine's remains

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Search for Madeleine's remains


Arade Dam 2008

Bones found: cameras on hand to record bones being found

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Bones apparently found: cameras on hand to record bones being found



Arade Dam 2008

Bones were merely animal bones

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Bones might be merely aninal bones


Arade Dam 2008

Search funded by McCann Team via Brian Kennedy via Metodo 3 via Marcos Correia, who twice lied about his source of funding and his reason for gettng involved
 
Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Search funded by Operation Grange, a review/investigation requested by the McCanns 


Arade Dam 2008

Van, team of several divers, Metodo 3 detectives on hand, operation directed by lawyer, bones analysed by Portuguese Police

Praia da Luz Snail 2014

Several vans, dogs, 30-plus police officers, augurs, ground-penetrating radar, operation directed by mid-ranking detective, any bones to be analysed by police.


A difference in scale, I agree.

But not many other differences

Only if you don't see much difference between Metodo3 and the police, nor between Correia and Redwood, the first who had a vision but turned out to just have visions for fundmoney.

I understand, but I don't agree.

[petunia]

16th June has been cancelled..

[rainbow-fairy]

With rolling 24/7 news channels and up to the minute reports from online newspapers, of course we are going to see what they want us to see,it brings in viewers and it sells newspapers.But in my mind i am thinking why send what seems to be the entire staff of OG to Portugal and make them do all that back breaking work knowing it's all for a whitewash? (i know the government have no respect how my hard work tax is spent) IMO if i see our Kate and Gerry appearing at a news conference in the next couple of days saying how grateful they are for what the PJ and SY are doing then i will admit defeat and say it's all for show to whitewash it until then...

I was going to post this earlier  - my thoughts on this:

Something has been niggling at me about this. 
I don't know if this should go here or in the McCanns Won't Return to Portugal, anyway. 

If this is a whitewash, all for 'show' and Kate and Gerry are kept in the loop, (presumably knowing they will not be incriminated) - why aren't they in Portugal?

It just isn't normal behaviour to be in the UK when the digs are going on, with no announcements about 'how grateful we are for the hard work' blah blah blah... It makes them look heartless (not hard!) but it also makes them look either 1)guilty as sin or 2)assured that anything found won't be linked to them. 

How would this tie in with being kept in the loop of a whitewash?
Surely if this were the case, they would be there for appearances sake - theirs and Grange - (think of the photo ops!) looking suitably tortured?

IMO, they don't have a clue what is going on, I don't believe they are being protected and I think it has all just got real again. 
Just my tuppence worth, though. 
I may be missing something

[nobodythereeither]

How would this tie in with being kept in the loop of a whitewash?
Surely if this were the case, they would be there for appearances sake - theirs and Grange - (think of the photo ops!) looking suitably tortured?

IMO, they don't have a clue what is going on, I don't believe they are being protected and I think it has all just got real again. 
Just my tuppence worth, though. 
I may be missing something

Very good point.

[Pershing36]

I am sure they will find plenty of bones if this scrub land was  a place were people buried their dead animals. 

Yes but it sounds important!

We went to some wasteland, immediately found an area of interest.  Erected some tents and dug and guess what we found bones and a news paper headline.  Alas they turned out to be animal bones but just how good were we to find remains in such a short time.

@ Pershing36

The same 'trick' worked well at the Arade Dam in 2008.

Why not try it again in 2014 in Praia da Luz?

Tony, like me you don't have to search much to see these ridiculous claims have not been said before.

Just Googled Madeline McCann and bones you mentioned and it came up as you reported.

I wasn't there that night, the PJ wasn't, and not even the mighty SY was there. The only person who knows is the person who was there that night.

There is an old saying for SY and it has a nasty word but it is great when they act like this like they did in Kos 'Don't piss down my back and tell me it it is raining'.

In a few weeks time if this uncovers nothing there will undoubtedly be those who claim the search was used to push somebody into a confession or break silence.  It is getting like a bad 007 movie with these claims now.

If it uncovers nothing it will be because there is nothing, we will have to live with it.

Three scenario's I can think of.

1. GM or a lookalike run through the town with a dead child on their shoulder.  He/she was acknowledged by passers by yet still buried the corpse in a swallow grave on wasteland.  This discredits the dogs with the car so effectively questions the dogs reliability in the apartment.

2. Members or a member decide to dispose of the body using the Scenic rent car.  Having loaded the body leaving cadaver odour all over the shot they decide to bury the body in an area over looked by residents and possibly tailed by police.

 3.A rapist/sex attacker/burglar enters apartment 5a.  For some horrific reason the little girl dies and the attacker decides to move the body to a hiding place in a panic.  The area is a shallow grave that requires no digging so he just places a piece of corrugated iron to hide the body in panic.  

Which of these do you realistically think is the plausible line of investigation given the way it has gone so far.

Poor Madeline the true victim.

[NickE]

16th June has been cancelled..

Well, there went my theory up in smoke. 

[PeterMac]

Three scenario's I can think of.

1. GM or a lookalike run through the town with a dead child on their shoulder.  He/she was acknowledged by passers by yet still buried the corpse in a swallow grave on wasteland.  This discredits the dogs with the car so effectively questions the dogs reliability in the apartment.

Not necessarily. The alert in the boot of the car and on the key fob can be contamination from, say, a blue tennis bag being taken to the tip for disposal because it is starting to smell bad enough even for a human to detect.

[Miraflores]

Is the 16th June cancellation a fact? It was up for discussion and agreement anyway, so it wouldn't be a surprise.

[Seek truth]

How would this tie in with being kept in the loop of a whitewash?
Surely if this were the case, they would be there for appearances sake - theirs and Grange - (think of the photo ops!) looking suitably tortured?

IMO, they don't have a clue what is going on, I don't believe they are being protected and I think it has all just got real again. 
Just my tuppence worth, though. 
I may be missing something

Very good point.

Maybe because they're bad actors and they've been advised to shut up?
It's obvious they have been silent for a long time now anyway. 

So quiet!

[DurhamGuy1967]

I am sure they will find plenty of bones if this scrub land was  a place were people buried their dead animals. 

Yes but it sounds important!

We went to some wasteland, immediately found an area of interest.  Erected some tents and dug and guess what we found bones and a news paper headline.  Alas they turned out to be animal bones but just how good were we to find remains in such a short time.

@ Pershing36

The same 'trick' worked well at the Arade Dam in 2008.

Why not try it again in 2014 in Praia da Luz?

Tony, like me you don't have to search much to see these ridiculous claims have not been said before.

Just Googled Madeline McCann and bones you mentioned and it came up as you reported.

I wasn't there that night, the PJ wasn't, and not even the mighty SY was there. The only person who knows is the person who was there that night.

There is an old saying for SY and it has a nasty word but it is great when they act like this like they did in Kos 'Don't piss down my back and tell me it it is raining'.

In a few weeks time if this uncovers nothing there will undoubtedly be those who claim the search was used to push somebody into a confession or break silence.  It is getting like a bad 007 movie with these claims now.

If it uncovers nothing it will be because there is nothing, we will have to live with it.

Three scenario's I can think of.

1. GM or a lookalike run through the town with a dead child on their shoulder.  He/she was acknowledged by passers by yet still buried the corpse in a swallow grave on wasteland.  This discredits the dogs with the car so effectively questions the dogs reliability in the apartment.

2. Members or a member decide to dispose of the body using the Scenic rent car.  Having loaded the body leaving cadaver odour all over the shot they decide to bury the body in an area over looked by residents and possibly tailed by police.

 3.A rapist/sex attacker/burglar enters apartment 5a.  For some horrific reason the little girl dies and the attacker decides to move the body to a hiding place in a panic.  The area is a shallow grave that requires no digging so he just places a piece of corrugated iron to hide the body in panic.  

Which of these do you realistically think is the plausible line of investigation given the way it has gone so far.

Poor Madeline the true victim.

maybe 4.
IMO. Madeleine's body was in Apartment 5A for long enough for detectable odour to be left. (this could have been less than 1 hour, but could have been longer) Smithman carried Madeleine's body from flat 5A to some wasteland to hide her until the after the initial search in the dark for a lost little girl wondering around close to the Ocean Club had calmed down. 

Then returned in the early hours of the 4th May to hide her body more effectively. It would be good cover to be looking for Madeleine but in fact looking for a good hiding place for Madeleine's body. Again all searches would be for a lost little girl wondering around, I don't believe the theory of her dying on the 3rd May had much credence until the dogs found evidence in the flat some time later. A counter argument to this is how could you bury her in the ground as it was so solid it would be hard to dig in a relatively short time. Hard areas of ground may not have been searched thoroughly for this reason but it now appears there was already a hole in the ground ideal for the purpose that the police did not know was there.

Then some time later a car was used to move her body to a location where there would be an extremely low chance of it ever being found eg under ground prepared for building foundations

[Praia]

Wow!! HELICOPTER just landed at Lagos Airstrip, looks to be a military one. Sun only just up. I have never seen activity this early.

We usually see helicopters only landing during the dark in case of severe medical emergency, an ambulance will usually be waiting for transfer to Lisbon.

It is sitting there but no signs of medical vehicles.

Just taken off towards sea / Luz area, looked like someone got on.

This all happened within minutes of the sun coming up. Maybe they are trying to avoid media??? Strange eitherway.

[PeterMac]

maybe 5
Dies 2nd, found morning of 3rd, placed in blue bag in cupboard, afternoon of 3rd taken in blue bag "in plain sight" . . .
Smithman irrelevant / invented / Red Herring / on a par with Tannerman
Bag placed back on shelf - where dog alerts later
Bag eventually placed in car for disposal - where dog alerts later
The existence of anything in the waste ground does not seem to rule anything out.

As the odious Mitchell nearly said, "there are explanations for anything which may, or may not, be found"

[DurhamGuy1967]

maybe 5
Dies 2nd, found morning of 3rd, placed in blue bag in cupboard, afternoon of 3rd taken in blue bag "in plain sight" . . .
Smithman irrelevant / invented / Red Herring / on a par with Tannerman
Bag placed back on shelf - where dog alerts later
Bag eventually placed in car for disposal - where dog alerts later
The existence of anything in the waste ground does not seem to rule anything out.

As the odious Mitchell nearly said, "there are explanations for anything which may, or may not, be found"

Of cause you could be right and you're very knowledgeable on the subject so your opinions are more valuable than most, including mine... but..There were a lot of witnesses to Smithman , right time , the description of the man and the girl he was carrying seem far to much of a coincidence. Plus although not suspicious at the time there would be many more potential witnesses to walking round in daylight with a blue bag.

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[ProfessorPPlum]

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Brilliant :-) 
I'm with PeterMac on this. I also don't think - statistically - Smithman is any more likely / unlikely than Tannerman. I err on the Occam's Razor principle: if you have time to plan how to cover up a death you opt for concealment. That means blue bags and fridges and disposal in ways that leave you smirking when interviewers refer to 'sightings'. It doesn't mean carrying dead children or decoys around in public.

[Bishop Brennan]

Portuguese press appear to be downplaying the events so far. They remain unimpressed.

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[sofieellis]

Sorry if I have put this on the wrong thread so please remove if I have,


I was reading a post recently ( cant remember exact words )  which mentioned the recent comment via a friend of the Mccann's that unless Madeleine's DNA is found they wont be returning to Portugal.....  the poster thought it was an odd comment for parents of a missing child to make, and so do I, you would think they would have said if they find her body - not her DNA

When you think about it, imo, it really is a very odd comment  and ranks among some other seemingly odd comments they have made...ie, The one where Gerry Mccann snapped " find the body" seemed odd at the time but it doesnt seem so odd now if you think about the more recent odd one about not returning to Portugal unless Madeleine's DNA is found.... unless her DNA is found ? Why say that ?  imo, if the Mccann's know for sure there is no body to be found,  then these two odd comments when put together would make sense  .....  was Gerry Mccann's subconscious mind coming to the front when he said DNA and not body ?

As I replied to those other posters, the quote actually reads like this:

But Kate and Gerry McCann have decided to stay away, a close pal has revealed.
The friend said: “They welcome the new phase of the investigation and hope it may lead them a step closer to finding out what happened to their daughter. They will be kept informed by Scotland Yard of any developments but they have no intention of going there. It is the last place they would want to be while digging takes place.
“It will be a hugely emotional time for Madeleine’s parents but it is a scenario they know needs to happen. They will only go to Portugal, God forbid, if any remains matching her DNA were found.”

Something over nothing.

I still think it's a bizarre thing to say. It's as if they're suggesting that a body would need to be DNA matched, before they would be interested in it. How many bodies do they expect SY to find?

[Bishop Brennan]

I still think it's a bizarre thing to say. It's as if they're suggesting that a body would need to be DNA matched, before they would be interested in it. How many bodies do they expect SY to find?

Well it seems that this area is popular as a pet cemetery, so there could be quite a few.  I doubt the McCanns knew that however, so the weird comment remains just that, weird - borderline suspicious.

And in a quote from the BBC website:  "Portuguese police sources told the BBC the search might be extended if there was a significant find. Officers are believed to have been surprised by the difficulty of the terrain, while the police also need to consider the disruption to local residents."

Two questions arise: 1 - Did nobody think to check the terrain before they sent the invasion force?  and 2 - How do they think tractorman/smellyman/burglarman managed to dig an impromptu grave there, with no spade or pick, that night?