Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by Okeydokey 07.05.14 1:31

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
russiandoll wrote:from the Express :

A team from the Metropolitan police will use ground penetrating radar equipment and sniffer dogs to search for clues at three different places in Praia da Luz.
They will first focus initial stage of the operation will concentrate on an area of empty land about the size of three football pitches next to the Ocean Club apartments where Madeleine went missing in 2007.
An area of nearby beach and two pieces of land in the countryside will also be investigated.

Very interesting. I wonder how accurate this information is.

If accurate much more interesting because that is a much more likely scenario - a dash into the countryside for an immediate hiding place.

by lj 07.05.14 1:33

Garrincha wrote:Sorry if this rains on the parade but some reflections:

If SY were not “whitewashing” but instead were ratcheting up the pressure on TM hoping someone will break ranks (or cover), they would have to consider the safety of the twins.

(In these sort circumstances when a parent cracks, other family members are often hurt.)

If that were to happen in this case SY would be guilty of the most extraordinary negligence and the fallout for all involved would be terminal (professionally).

Therefore, as there seems to be no indication that the twins are not with their parents, I simply cannot believe the SY strategy is focused on anything other than whitewash.

I agree. I would not be surprised if this whole digging is another "just has to excluded" exercise. If the road was the same they were working on in 2007, then it was very thoroughly searched at that time. After all the "woke and wandered" scenario was still high on the list. I keep on wondering if that piece of land is the piece of land the Telegraaf letter mentioned. That too was very well searched. Not dug up, but a fresh dug grave must have stood out at that time.

by suzyjohnson 07.05.14 1:35

Okeydokey wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:If the piece of waste ground (pictured in the Daily Mail) wasn't fenced in at the time of Madeleine's disappearance then it's possible that the man seen by the Smiths could have crossed this ground on his way from apartment 5A to the beach?

And spent how long digging a grave? It's not even remotely a runner in my view.

I just noticed that Smithman may have taken that route. I don't expect there would be much to find in the way of evidence after 7 years but it's interesting that SY and the PJ seem to be focusing in on Smithman.

by lj 07.05.14 1:36

Mirage wrote:
lj wrote:
NickE wrote:Anyone think that McCann' falls apart and telling the truth if they find a body?

No, they might spin another fairy tale and nail themselves with the new lies. These are sociopaths, they only care about themselves. Kate is much harder than she tries to look.
Don't tell me this case could turn into a saga Ij

I bought a nice bottle of tequila and laid that aside. At the 10 yr anniversary we going to open it, shall we? We need it now, so for sure by then.....

by lj 07.05.14 1:40

pauloptix wrote:
russiandoll wrote:Lively twitter debate because of a remark that even if a body is found, the Mcs are in the clear.
Am trying to think of the tapas timeline, the last time Maddie was seen and the time the alarm was raised.
Then the frantic activity around the immediate area.

Some tweeting that a body will not implicate the parents, but depending on where it is found, if a body is found, there would not have been enough time for it to have been buried with the care it would have taken to have lain undiscovered for so long?
I totally agree, it all depends on the burial site... If it's in close proximity to 5a, the Mc's are finished. The window of opportunity and the timeline don't work for a close burial.
If anything is found near to 5a, it would have to have been put there prior to the alert, in which case the entire T9 are implicated.

There is of course always one other possibility SY could spin... MBM did go wandering through the unlocked door... fell into a hole in the roadworks, died of a head injury. Nobody found her, the roadworks was filled and TarmcC'd over.
7 years later the diggers go in, the remains are found... Accidental Death... Case closed. BINGO! Everyone's a winner

That road was repeatedly very thoroughly searched. The woke and wander scenario was still very much in everyone's mind.

by ultimaThule 07.05.14 1:51

XTC wrote
< snip >

p.s Just as an interesting aside: There was a poster who used to post on the 3a's Forum many years ago called beachy who suggested examining any hairs found for what is called Proximal Banding. Something to do with examining hair at the core ( as if looking straight down a hair I think ) and if it was grey the it suggested that the person who deposited it was dead at the time of depositing. This poster said that it was something forensically being discussed in the US as to whether this method could be used in a Court of Law but I've no inkling of whther it is allowed
currently but forensic science has moved on apace like computing so perhaps whatt was impossible then is possible now? Mr Amaral seems to think so and I agree. It might be useful as an addition to the digging to re-examine the old forensic material evidence?
_______________________________

See this article on the taphonomy of hair, XTC [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Postmortem banding is the appearance of an opaque microscopic band near the proximal (root) area of hairs from a decomposing body.

If hair which showed postmortem banding was discovered in, say, a vehicle, it's probable the game would be up for the driver unless, of course, s/he was an undertaker by trade or otherwise engaged in the transportation of dead bodies.

by pauloptix 07.05.14 1:59

ultimaThule wrote:XTC wrote
< snip >

p.s Just as an interesting aside: There was a poster who used to post on the 3a's Forum many years ago called beachy who suggested examining any hairs found for what is called Proximal Banding. Something to do with examining hair at the core ( as if looking straight down a hair I think ) and if it was grey the it suggested that the person who deposited it was dead at the time of depositing. This poster said that it was something forensically being discussed in the US as to whether this method could be used in a Court of Law but I've no inkling of whther it is allowed
currently but forensic science has moved on apace like computing so perhaps whatt was impossible then is possible now? Mr Amaral seems to think so and I agree. It might be useful as an addition to the digging to re-examine the old forensic material evidence?
_______________________________

See this article on the taphonomy of hair, XTC [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Postmortem banding is the appearance of an opaque microscopic band near the proximal (root) area of hairs from a decomposing body.

If hair which showed postmortem banding was discovered in, say, a vehicle, it's probable the game would be up for the driver unless, of course, s/he was an undertaker by trade or otherwise engaged in the transportation of dead bodies.

Or perhaps a Doctor who has already explained away the cadaver trace on his/her clothes as remnants of 3 dead bodies they had been in contact with prior to the holiday.
Should have used Bold Extra yes

by lj 07.05.14 2:27

Tony Bennett wrote:

Russiandoll wrote:

In an open letter dated today, Assistant Commissioner Rowley said he had explained the Metropolitan Police's practice of making public as much information as possible, but respects the Portuguese position.

Metropolitan Police’s Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has blamed the Portuguese authorities for the lack of information being made public by Operation Grange.

REPLY: The Met are bringing out ever bigger guns.

A few months ago, it was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt who was wheeled out to offer his verbally-challenged quote that "the tempo of the investigation is moving forward".

Now it's an Assistant Commissioner - Mark Rowley, one step down from Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - who is coming out of the woodwork - mainly, it seems, to bash, yet again, the Portuguese Police, instead of publicly thanking them.

If it is true, as reported, that the Portuguese government (because they have to be involved) has sanctioned a dig by Scotland Yard - a force that has criticised them time and again, from a country whose media have criticised them time and time again as well - then we can be sure that something very very strange is going on.

I think I have said on many occasions that from Day One this Scotland Yard operation has been about shaping public perception, and never was a genuine enquiry into the facts.

This latest episode of the dig doesn't persuade me to alter my opinion one jot.

Nope,here neither

by MrsC 07.05.14 5:27

PeterMac wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Those dig locations are simple misdirection. They seem to be very likely spots for anyone who is not familiar with the case, but they won't be digging there.
SPOT ON
The place in the story is flat, compacted ground, used as a car park, overlooked by many apartments, and passed by - amongst others - the Smith family on their way home.. You would need a JCB to break it.

IF they are going to do any digging at all - which is unlikely
THEN it will already have been done
OR it will be in proper locations of proper interest,

OR - the British Press will be accused of having made it impossible and the case will be closed.
AGAIN

I fear this. sad

by **tigger** 07.05.14 5:37

Copied from forensic linguistics as it's more to do with this topic:

Okeydokey wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
Tangled Web wrote:
Asking the McCann's if they thought Madeleine had woken and wandered is a perfectly reasonable and logical question to ask under the circumstances. IMO they can only be certain that she didn't wake and wander if they KNOW what happened to her. They could not say with such certainty that she didn't wake and wander if they KNOW that she didn't. Or, she did wake and wander and that's how she met her demise and they're trying to stop people pursuing this line of enquiry. There is a reason they insist that she didn't but I'm not sure what it is.

Yes - their response is not convincing on two points:

A. We know they had the "star chart" at home trying to stop Madeleine from seeking them out within the home when she woke in the night. She therefore had at the time a propensity to wake and seek them out.

B. Madeline had on their own admission a good 20-30 mins to travel away from the apartment. An infant could easily travel a mile in that time period. So, if they only searched for 10 minutes it seems extremely unlikely they could have covered a square mile, searching all possible hiding places, given most of the searching would have been within the apartment and immediate environs.

So the question is: why do the McCanns want us to believe there was no possibility of her wandering off? The most likely answer is because they have had to focus on selling us a single narrative.
In retrospect and in view of the digs planned for the area in and around Mark Warner's resort, it would seem the McCanns and their friends were very keen to get the search focused outside the immediate area and towards the borders etc. Bizarre, given that Jane Tanner saw the 'abductor' walking away from the apartment, but understandable if the body was close by.

Yes. That has indeed always struck me as more than a little odd. Whilst the thought of borders might have come up, I think a parent would be more focussed on the idea that the child was still in the immediate vicinity, in a house, in a van, lying injured somewhere. The McCanns' immediate and insistent focus on closing borders etc seems rather odd.
Unquote

by della70 07.05.14 5:58

Just read this before going to work don't know if its already mentioned ,http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5612497/Cops-ready-to-dig-for-Maddie-McCann-body-after-mother-dream.html

by Watching 07.05.14 6:05

tigger wrote:

So the question is: why do the McCanns want us to believe there was no possibility of her wandering off?

Why indeed!

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Fiona Payne to Leicestershire Police speaking of what Kate McCann told her at the dinner table on the night Madeleine was reported as missing regarding leaving the patio door unlocked:

“She did, she brought it up and that she, I mean this is awful in retrospect as well, she asked what my opinion was on, erm, tut, on whether they were okay leaving the, the doors unlocked, because she was saying ‘ Is it better that if Madeleine wakes up she can get out and find us or erm, locking it and, you know, finding that we’re not there and the door’s locked if she woke up.’

by Guest 07.05.14 6:55

Another good one by L-azzeri.

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by Gillyspot 07.05.14 7:21

Andrew77R wrote:Another good one by L-azzeri.

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imo the best one ever. L-azzeri is always good though high5

by aiyoyo 07.05.14 7:21

della70 wrote:Just read this before going to work don't know if its already mentioned ,http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/5612497/Cops-ready-to-dig-for-Maddie-McCann-body-after-mother-dream.html

The Sun is getting its pound of flesh. I wonder whether CR is instructed to standby to take order to sue.

Kate & Gerry were pissed off when PJ suggested they were made arguidos on Kate's dream.

by Mirage 07.05.14 7:34

Gillyspot wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:Another good one by L-azzeri.

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imo the best one ever. L-azzeri is always good though

Utterly brilliant. If Andy (his name came up as 'body' on predictive text, ha ha) Redwood does nothing else today he should read this and, if it is not too late, start the long climb out of the particular hole he has dug himself into.

by **tigger** 07.05.14 7:56

Mirage wrote:
Gillyspot wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:Another good one by L-azzeri.

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imo the best one ever. L-azzeri is always good though

Utterly brilliant. If Andy (his name came up as 'body' on predictive text, ha ha) Redwood does nothing else today he should read this and, if it is not too late, start the long climb out of the particular hole he has dug himself into.

Terrific! I've always wanted to see those photographs of Gerry together: the one just days after the disappearance and the one from last year, acccording to nfwtd he's holding a fiver - might that be the reason for his expression? So little, so few contrbutors to the one thing that cheered him up, also days after 3/5/07 - the Ltd,Co. with no restrictions on the use of funds from the so erroneously named company.

by Snifferdog 07.05.14 8:13

La-zzeri-lies-in-the-Sun is such a talented writer. She really gets to the nitty gritty and says it like it is. Read it Andy Redwood, you may learn some observation skills.

by Pershing36 07.05.14 8:13

Good Morning Britain has just done a piece on this.

The three areas could be dug within days.

Area 1, the beach.

Area 2, Wasteland

Area 3 is a more interesting addition, well one I have not heard before. They will dig up a street which had road works going on that night. The possible theory is she wandered off and fell down a hole but was never noticed. Workman returned in the morning and filled the hole in not noticing the body.

Blimey it sounds like the council road workers in the UK in the months before April trying to waste their budget. Dig a hole and fill it in lads, this money has to be spent.

by **PeterMac** 07.05.14 8:15

Okeydokey wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:If the piece of waste ground (pictured in the Daily Mail) wasn't fenced in at the time of Madeleine's disappearance then it's possible that the man seen by the Smiths could have crossed this ground on his way from apartment 5A to the beach?

And spent how long digging a grave? It's not even remotely a runner in my view.

It was fenced.
The ground is extremely hard, compacted after years of neglect.
You would need a JCB to break it
And the "Abductor now has to complete a new series of tasks in the time allowed, in full view of anyone in the village . . ?
I am more interested in the two places outside the town, but doubt we shall be told where they are.

by jozi 07.05.14 8:17

Pershing36 wrote:Good Morning Britain has just done a piece on this.

The three areas could be dug within days.

Area 1, the beach.

Area 2, Wasteland

Area 3 is a more interesting addition, well one I have not heard before. They will dig up a street which had road works going on that night. The possible theory is she wandered off and fell down a hole but was never noticed. Workman returned in the morning and filled the hole in not noticing the body.

Blimey it sounds like the council road workers in the UK in the months before April trying to waste their budget. Dig a hole and fill it in lads, this money has to be spent.

OMG....Knew I should not have got my hopes up !!!

by NickE 07.05.14 8:20

Smithman, yes maybe.
But who sat in Jez stroller outside 5A?
J.W.'s child, or?

by noddy100 07.05.14 8:26

Didn't Kate say the way she found the room ruled out woke and wandered

by russiandoll 07.05.14 8:28

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MADELEINE: LUZ BRACED FOR “EARTH DIGGERS EVERYWHERE”

According to the latest tabloid stories coming out of UK, Metropolitan police investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann are about to start digging in three areas in Praia da Luz - the holiday village from where the three-year-old went missing in 2007.

The Daily Mirror promises “earth diggers everywhere” and claims “it will be very dramatic”, while the Daily Mail adds that police will “not specifically be looking for a body” but more “hoping to rule possible scenarios out as well as find new information”.

The news follows endless stories of very different potential suspects - the latest of whom appears to be 77-year-old paedophile Roderick Robinson who jumped bail on child molestation charges in Australia and has since apparently changed his name and fled to the Far East.

The fact that Robinson was arrested on Olhão campsite in 2010 - three years after Madeleine went missing - is reported in the Daily Mail as being of vital interest to Metropolitan Police.

Meantime the Met is said to be waiting for the go-ahead from its Portuguese counterparts before forensic teams can start digging up areas in Luz.

Both the Daily Mail and Daily Mirror mention three sites - two near the Ocean Club resort where Madeleine and her family were staying, and one on the beach.

But the prospect of “diggers everywhere” just as the seaside village starts filling up with tourists for the summer season does not seem to be troubling Luz residents - few of whom are taking the story seriously.

“This is beyond parody,” said a former RAF navigator who has been following the mystery intently since 2007.

“But what this latest story would seem to suggest is that the abduction theory is now well and truly out the window.

“We’ve had so many people suspected of abducting the child, but none of them were thought to have been in the possession of heavy-duty earth-digging equipment when they did so.”
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UPDATE: MADELEINE: “EARTH-DIGGERS EVERYWHERE” AN EXAGGERATION

A little more than a day after UK tabloids suggested earth-diggers would be “everywhere” in a heightened police search for Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz, Sky News has reported that it is “unlikely” that high-profile excavations will take place during the busy tourist season.

Reporter Martin Brunt said it was much more probable that ground penetrating radar equipment would be used, and in a way that “would not be obvious” to passers-by.

The update comes as Portuguese police are reported to have sanctioned the Met's request for searches 'on the ground' and in stark contrast to reports in the Daily Mail and Daily Mirror - both of which suggested the holiday village would soon be turned upside down by fleets of JCB earth-movers “looking for clues” .

The Daily Mail claimed excavations would “not specifically be looking for a body” but more “hoping to rule out possible scenarios”.

Areas involved could include scrubland near the primary school - alongside which an Irish family are reported to have passed a man carrying a child on the night Madeleine was reported missing - and a road leading down from the Ocean Club complex, which was being dug up for new pipework when the McCanns first arrived on holiday.

Residents following this fast-developing story are intrigued. Said a former policeman: “Bearing in mind it is extremely difficult to bury a body at short notice in hard ground, this suggests that police are looking for something buried before May 3.

“Once Madeleine was reported missing, the village was crawling with journalists and search teams for weeks. No one could have buried anything.”

A former RAF navigator who has been following the story since 2007 added: “This certainly seems to have knocked the abduction theory into the long grass.

“We’ve had so many people suspected of abducting the child, but none of them were thought to have been in the possession of heavy-duty earth-digging equipment when they did so.”
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by **PeterMac** 07.05.14 8:29

Just out of interest, google maps shows a JCB on one of the named search areas, and a water bowser, reinforcing my view that the land is rock hard.
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You just cannot dig that sort of ground with a normal spade - even if you have got one.

by Guest 07.05.14 8:32

So today we have...

Daily Express - to dig up 5 locations.

Daily Star - to dig up 3 locations.

The Sun - to dig up 4 locations.

Daily Mirror - to dig up 3 locations.

Daily Mail - to dig up 3 locations.

P.s. Mods - I thinks L-azzeri deserves a thread or her own. Fantastic reading!!!

by ChippyM 07.05.14 8:33

Pershing36 wrote:Good Morning Britain has just done a piece on this.

The three areas could be dug within days.

Area 1, the beach.

Area 2, Wasteland

Area 3 is a more interesting addition, well one I have not heard before. They will dig up a street which had road works going on that night. The possible theory is she wandered off and fell down a hole but was never noticed. Workman returned in the morning and filled the hole in not noticing the body.

Blimey it sounds like the council road workers in the UK in the months before April trying to waste their budget. Dig a hole and fill it in lads, this money has to be spent.

I honestly think these journalists get their theories from message boards like this one...it's just that they're about 6 years behind and haven't done any basic research. Didn't the PJ go over the area and use dogs, no scent was detected from a child alive or otherwise.

by russiandoll 07.05.14 8:37

noddy100 wrote:Didn't Kate say the way she found the room ruled out woke and wandered

How Kate found 5a and its immediate outdoors area ruled that scenario out, in fact she felt that suggestion by police insulted her intelligence. How could a drowsy not yet 4 year old have taken the trouble to close everything behind her as she left? Kate found street-level gate, safety gate at top of steps, patio doors and curtains all closed when she went to check at 10 pm.

[ LK, who has ignored all Maddie related front pages in recent days, has mentioned the tabloid front pages without comment.]

by russiandoll 07.05.14 8:42

PeterMac wrote:Just out of interest, google maps shows a JCB on one of the named search areas, and a water bowser, reinforcing my view that the land is rock hard.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

You just cannot dig that sort of ground with a normal spade - even if you have got one.

apart from the time, what about the noise ?

re evidence other than a body, how would a person/ people under pressure and with a high degree of cunning, have disposed of a blue bag and clothes, for example?

burial? the tip?

by noddy100 07.05.14 8:43

Sky reporting this dig is based on info given to Portuguese in last 7 years

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