Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by Guest 06.05.14 21:58

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by NickE 06.05.14 22:01

Newspaper here in Sweden tonight.
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by Silverspeed 06.05.14 22:05

I see according to the front page of tomorrows Daily Express up to 5 places may be excavated.

by Guest 06.05.14 22:09

Silverspeed wrote:I see according to the front page of tomorrows Daily Express up to 5 places may be excavated.

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by Guest 06.05.14 22:24

And the Star..........

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by russiandoll 06.05.14 22:26

One for Tony - the BBC site quotes Rowley saying this :

Mr Rowley said the Portuguese authorities had been "more bureaucratic and slower" at processing requests than his team had wished.

But he asked the media to respect their requests as they carried out the work.

"We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case," he said.

by russiandoll 06.05.14 22:32

By Dr Martin Roberts
06 May 2014

'RIGHT' SAID FRED

If you find yourself already in a hole - stop digging! Unless you're the Metropolitan Police, who, pursuant to their intention of discovering the fate of Madeleine McCann, are about to land in Portugal, as the United States CB's once did the Philippines, taking with them sensitive detection equipment and forensic expertise. Oh, and some shovels. The contingent could usefully include certain staff from Leicester University, who have proven experience already in locating significant buried skeletons.

The reality is best summed up in the Guardian announcement of 5 May, that UK police are to 'oversee excavations'.

Decades ago, when some serious civil engineering projects were being undertaken in the City of London, the contractors erected opaque protective screens so that the citizenry could pass to and fro alongside the earthworks without danger of falling in or being felled by an unruly girder. Considerately these shields included 'peep holes', where office workers would park themselves and their sandwiches at lunchtime to watch the proceedings beneath. That is the likely measure of the Met's 'overseeing'.

According to Tracey Kandohla and Russell Myers of the Daily Mirror (4 May):

"Police have assured Kate and Gerry that it does not mean they are specifically searching for her body. They are doing searches as much as to rule scenarios out as much as rule them in. They will be concentrating on several different places at different phases."

Let's get this straight. Officers from Scotland Yard are going to officiate in the excavation of two or three sites in the vicinity of the Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, with the intention of ruling a few things out? As if!

If there is so much as a grain of truth in this story, then one thing it is not is an agricultural experiment with a field marked out in plots chosen at random. (That's random as in a 'random sample' for statistical purposes, not random as in 'on a whim'). To rule out certain scenarios the Mets' contractors would have to excavate virtually the whole of Portugal! ('O.k. so you found nothing this time, but what if there's something buried in that area just over there?' – you get the picture).

We are clearly not being told the 'hole truth' here about Scotland Yard's playing a 'bloke in a bowler' to the PJ's Bernard Cribbins:

"Don't dig there! Dig it elsewhere!

You’re digging it round when it ought to be square,

The shape of it's wrong. It's much too long,

And you can't put a hole where a hole don't belong."

Should an excavation team, be they Portuguese or British, sadly uncover the remains of a female child, I wonder what these might be clothed in? If they were to be pyjamas they could help identify the body.

On the other hand, perhaps not.

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by suzyjohnson 06.05.14 22:34

HelenMeg

I cant see how this dig means that SY are considering the Mc Canns as suspects = how does this request to dig send a message to the parents etc? I'm struggling to see this unless M's first resting place was in one of these locations.

------------

Because GM says he saw his daughter at 9.10 pm. And after 10 pm. when KM raised the alarm, a lot of people were out searching around PdL.

There wasn't enough time for any abductor to take MM from the apartment and then bury her within the vicinity of the Ocean Club (especially when you take into account the evidence of the dogs)

Therefore, if anyone did bury either a body or other evidence in this area, then it can only have been the McCanns, and / or GM must be lying about seeing MM alive at 9.10 pm.

by XTC 06.05.14 22:35

Monty Heck wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
Cristobell wrote:Wouldn't the parents be implicated if a body is found, regardless of its condition?

Aren't they implicated merely by the digs taking place?

As Petermac pointed out, the body must have been buried before the alarm was raised - by the following day PDL had filled with investigative reporters and the extended families of the McCanns and the Healys.

The idea that a lone abductor or even a paedophile gang would hang around or even return to bury the child in that area, in the full glare of the world's press is absurd.

I hope this hasn't been said already, I'm a few pages behind, but further to the above -

It must be obvious to SY as well that anything found by digging in this area implicates the McCanns, so, in other words, SY must be considering the McCanns as suspects after all. Which, in turn, must be obvious to the McCanns. I'm not convinced that the police will find MM buried in PdL (how does the evidence from the car fit in if that were the case?) but IMO the fact that SY have sent a request to dig in this area sends a clear message to the McCanns and anyone within the Tapas group who may have been involved.
Just catching up here so apologies if this has been answered already. It might be the case that minute traces of soil, vegetation etc peculiar to certain locations were found within the hire care, along with the biological samples which were recovered.

Monty Heck

That is in my opinion an excellent take on possible evidence.

It has been known that cases in the US have been solved by the analysis of soil samples and ( this is a bit gruesome) larvae of certain insects which only appear at fixed times of the year. Clever stuff.

Imagine though that you are the remover and as you removed you walked to say the beach. You will get sand on your shoes. Then imagine
that you return to where the removal was started. There will be sand where you started. I'm giving sand as an example but it could be anything. If for example you removed by a vehicle there may be the removal cars carpetting fibres on your sole and you wouldn't know. But If you find something similar and you can connect the forensic dots then maybe you can follow the trail.

Re: the planned dig in PdL. In my humble opinion I don't think we are all going to witness column upon cloumn of JCB's piling into the quiet
resort. That really would attract the media Twitchers. If they ( the PJ not SY that is ) are focussing either on behalf of SY or themselves I
suspect they will use the radar/sonic search equipment first to look for voids ( ground that has been dug previously and collapsed due to rain
and compacting and I think they can detect material that is soft from hard ( something to do with resonance) so I don't think that it will be as wild and spectacular as the media and others are suggesting. Either way despite the talk that this is not based on new evidence my opinion is that a lot of the sites may be based on analysis of the phone evidence after or during the removal. This may be the only course to follow as nothing else has emerged since the Archiving of the case. The problem for Mr Amaral and his team was that for all they could trace the pings they couldn't examine the calls and texts from PdL. I think that SY could have dug up further information. That is only a guess though but something has prompted this latest phase and it will be interesting to see what pans out from this.

The question for all is what are they looking for? A body - clothing - DNA - blanket- bag ?

What should happen though is that this time if anything is revealed or unearthed the Portuguese should keep it and examine it via their own
forensic labs. Because even if you wanted to fit up a fall guy you would still have to link A - B. A being the abductor and B being the abductee. Also you would have to place A and B in C - the apartment where the alleged abduction happened. Unfortunately nothing of B appears to exist only in the UK.

p.s Just as an interesting aside: There was a poster who used to post on the 3a's Forum many years ago called beachy who suggested examining any hairs found for what is called Proximal Banding. Something to do with examining hair at the core ( as if looking straight down a hair I think ) and if it was grey the it suggested that the person who deposited it was dead at the time of depositing. This poster said that it was something forensically being discussed in the US as to whether this method could be used in a Court of Law but I've no inkling of whther it is allowed
currently but forensic science has moved on apace like computing so perhaps waht was impossible then is possible now? Mr Amaral sems to think so and I agree. It might be useful as an addition to the digging to re-examine the old forensic material evidence?

Total opinion though.

by **PeterMac** 06.05.14 22:37

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Those dig locations are simple misdirection. They seem to be very likely spots for anyone who is not familiar with the case, but they won't be digging there.

SPOT ON
The place in the story is flat, compacted ground, used as a car park, overlooked by many apartments, and passed by - amongst others - the Smith family on their way home.. You would need a JCB to break it.

IF they are going to do any digging at all - which is unlikely
THEN it will already have been done
OR it will be in proper locations of proper interest,

OR - the British Press will be accused of having made it impossible and the case will be closed.
AGAIN

by russiandoll 06.05.14 22:42

from the Express :

A team from the Metropolitan police will use ground penetrating radar equipment and sniffer dogs to search for clues at three different places in Praia da Luz.
They will first focus initial stage of the operation will concentrate on an area of empty land about the size of three football pitches next to the Ocean Club apartments where Madeleine went missing in 2007.
An area of nearby beach and two pieces of land in the countryside will also be investigated.

by petunia 06.05.14 22:47

If i had a week or two holiday from work over the next couple of weeks i would pay a fortune to be in praia da luz, for this historic dig and historical moment, what with the paparazzi,media,and rolling 24/7 news,helicopters watching the digging and all that palava who would't?photos to send to family,friends,facebook,twitter etc etc.Or maybe i would prefer to be somewhere nice and quite and see something i wasn't quite expecting to see. big grin

by loopzdaloop 06.05.14 22:50

I love how the newspapers pretend that they know where the digging will be (i.e. near the apartment in that wasteland).
It will be interesting to see where they go digging.

Although, I'm still leaning towards it being in the sea based upon
A> Their run's next to the sea and
B> Kates suicidal ideation in her book, which was very specific about wanting to down herself.

by Carrry On Doctor 06.05.14 22:58

PeterMac wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Those dig locations are simple misdirection. They seem to be very likely spots for anyone who is not familiar with the case, but they won't be digging there.
SPOT ON
The place in the story is flat, compacted ground, used as a car park, overlooked by many apartments, and passed by - amongst others - the Smith family on their way home.. You would need a JCB to break it.

IF they are going to do any digging at all - which is unlikely
THEN it will already have been done
OR it will be in proper locations of proper interest,

OR - the British Press will be accused of having made it impossible and the case will be closed.
AGAIN

Peter, I too think it likely that scans of the ground would have already taken place, maybe in the places highlighted in the MSM but more likely elsewhere. Its a few years now since you and Pat visited potential final resting places (in keeping phone pings etc), so would you expect areas such as Budens to be more likely locations and the media are speculating or have been given a bum steer as where a dig might take place.

It just seems strange that the PJ would advertise where they are going to dig and do it in the full glare of the world. The ACTUAL locations of the dig must surely be intelligence led and I cant see those locations being advertised beforehand.

Thanks

(IMO)

by Watching The Detectives 06.05.14 22:58

Soil and pollen were part of the forensic evidence against Ian Huntley:

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by russiandoll 06.05.14 23:05

words used in the tv news reports today-

vanished.......several times

went missing....... same

was abducted............not once.

by **sharonl** 06.05.14 23:15

russiandoll wrote:words used in the tv news reports today-

vanished.......several times

went missing....... same

was abducted............not once.

Strange things going on.

thinking

I wonder if something is happening in Portugal that we have not been told about, and team McCann are trying to get in first.

Could the government and press be back peddling now?

by AndyB 06.05.14 23:17

russiandoll wrote:words used in the tv news reports today-

vanished.......several times

went missing....... same

was abducted............not once.

Good point, well made. I have to admit; perhaps my glass isn't half empty after all

by russiandoll 06.05.14 23:21

forgot another.... disappeared. several times. still no mention of an abduction.

I wonder if the police have already found something significant.

by ProfessorPPlum 06.05.14 23:21

And the winners are.... the ever-present mainstream media. Again. It's the only constant in all of this.

by XTC 06.05.14 23:24

Watching The Detectives wrote:Soil and pollen were part of the forensic evidence against Ian Huntley:

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Oh yes the police can be very clever when they want to be.

It's just whether they want to be?

Forensics will be the key to this case I think body or no body.

That is what could start the ball rolling.

Opinion only though.

by PIForHire 06.05.14 23:25

When they say to give thought to what you report, what type of information are they referring to?

by Carrry On Doctor 06.05.14 23:26

sharonl wrote:
russiandoll wrote:words used in the tv news reports today-

   vanished.......several times

   went missing....... same

was abducted............not once.

Strange things going on.

   I wonder if something is happening in Portugal that we have not been told about, and team McCann are trying to get in first.

Could the government and press be back peddling now?

Indeed ! The language in the press is changing and there will likely be a lot of rustling going on behind the stage curtain.

Peter may be best placed to give a more informed opinion, but I would expect the PJ to be much further on than we are led to believe. We can only speculate !

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 23:37

russiandoll wrote:from the Express :

A team from the Metropolitan police will use ground penetrating radar equipment and sniffer dogs to search for clues at three different places in Praia da Luz.
They will first focus initial stage of the operation will concentrate on an area of empty land about the size of three football pitches next to the Ocean Club apartments where Madeleine went missing in 2007.
An area of nearby beach and two pieces of land in the countryside will also be investigated.

Very interesting. I wonder how accurate this information is.

by mavisreilly 06.05.14 23:40

Perhaps they have not heard that sniffer dogs are incredibly unreliable winkwink

by lj 07.05.14 1:02

PeterMac wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Cães vão procurar corpo de Maddie = Dogs will seek body of Maddie
(google, then cleaned up)
The Public Ministry of Portimão authorized the British police to make searches of a vacant lot next to the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz, Algarve, where researchers now argue that Madeleine's body may have been buried. The team continues to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann and had already made other requests that were refused. They have now to perform searches on wasteland next to the apartment where the girl disappeared on May 4, 2007 and for authorized excavations. For now only the searches are allowed.
The British promise to use special equipment such as probes to help find corpses and dogs that smell the trail of death. "

A spokesman said, on behalf of the McCanns - "Oh merda."

sorry

by suzyjohnson 07.05.14 1:03

If the piece of waste ground (pictured in the Daily Mail) wasn't fenced in at the time of Madeleine's disappearance then it's possible that the man seen by the Smiths could have crossed this ground on his way from apartment 5A to the beach?

by lj 07.05.14 1:04

paradigm67 wrote:
Watching The Detectives wrote:The Telegraph says detectives have flown to the Algarve

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They arent hanging about then.... Why the massively sudden urgency?

Quote from that article "Scotland Yard have refused to comment, stating that they are not giving a running commentary on their investigation.". That was echoed in one of the mails articles yesterday where a SY spokesperson apparently said that the yard have a strict policy in not commenting on ongoing investigations. So where have all the spurious news articles been coming from if thats true. Also, if the yard are not providing comments, just how much must they be p****d off with whoever is muddying the waters and making them look like fools?

They forgot to tell Andy

by Okeydokey 07.05.14 1:27

lj wrote:
paradigm67 wrote:
Watching The Detectives wrote:The Telegraph says detectives have flown to the Algarve

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They arent hanging about then.... Why the massively sudden urgency?

Quote from that article "Scotland Yard have refused to comment, stating that they are not giving a running commentary on their investigation.". That was echoed in one of the mails articles yesterday where a SY spokesperson apparently said that the yard have a strict policy in not commenting on ongoing investigations. So where have all the spurious news articles been coming from if thats true. Also, if the yard are not providing comments, just how much must they be p****d off with whoever is muddying the waters and making them look like fools?

They forgot to tell Andy

Too right! They forget to tell Andy the first lesson of policing as well: not to tell suspects you are about to arrest them...especially if they are holding some poor innocent in the hands of abductors. :)

One almost feels that Andy has lost control of the whole case, as though much bigger beasts are slugging this one out.

by Okeydokey 07.05.14 1:28

suzyjohnson wrote:If the piece of waste ground (pictured in the Daily Mail) wasn't fenced in at the time of Madeleine's disappearance then it's possible that the man seen by the Smiths could have crossed this ground on his way from apartment 5A to the beach?

And spent how long digging a grave? It's not even remotely a runner in my view.

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