Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by Guest 06.05.14 12:06

On the night or weeks later, it would have been hugely risky to bury a body securely wrapped in a pink blanket or shower curtain or whatever. A wrapped dead body still looks like a dead body even from a distance.

From a logistical point of view, it would be much easier (and less likely to arouse suspicion) to carry a blue sports bag and to drop it into the hole.

by aiyoyo 06.05.14 12:07

ChippyM wrote:I'm just being devil's advocate here but IF a body is found, would the Mc's really be in trouble? They could still argue their abduction theory as the body would be unlikely to reveal much at this stage......that is unless there is strong supporting evidence such as phone records, that ties them to the place where the body is found.

If digging indeed is taking place Police would have arrived at the areas for digging by eliminations.
That being the case, abduction is out the window, digging can only be done by PJ secrecy code applies no doubt, then decomposition will be the least of the Mccanns worry. There will be a trail of evidence leading to the person who dumped/buried the body there.

If digging is imminent no wonder the tripe in recent articles about the 7-yr death declaration rule and mccanns reaction to it.
One can't see the newspapers covering Madeleine death if the idea wasn't implanted to them by team Mccann.
The mccanns were keen to promote the imminent arrest but not imminent dig, so where the Papers got wind of imminent dig I wonder.

by russiandoll 06.05.14 12:09

Libel issue sorted now, I would think.

by jeanmonroe 06.05.14 12:09

Probably out of order here BUT

I think the Leicestershire Social Services should be taking a rather keener interest, and eye on, the McCann 'twins' RIGHT NOW!

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 12:13

Why is the BBC not reporting this story*? This is some of the biggest news in the McCann case to have happened in years.

*No idea if they're reporting it on TV, no mention of it on the website yet.

by ChippyM 06.05.14 12:14

aiyoyo wrote:

The mccanns were keen to promote the imminent arrest but not imminent dig, so where the Papers got wind of imminent dig I wonder.

A 'well placed source' close to the PJ ? Playing the Mc's at their own game :iconbiggrin:

by russiandoll 06.05.14 12:15

I wonder, although the police will have definite sites in mind, if they will start with the one where one of these shows an interest ?

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by Cristobell 06.05.14 12:15

AndyB wrote:
Cristobell wrote:
AndyB wrote:
Cristobell wrote:Wouldn't the parents be implicated if a body is found, regardless of its condition?

Aren't they implicated merely by the digs taking place?
I'm not sure I follow your logic. If Madeleine's body is found, SY will claim that she was killed by their predatory paedo and her body dumped nearby. I don't see how the parents are implicated at all unless you take the dog alerts seriously but that isn't something that SY seem willing to do. (For those of us that do consider all the evidence they are already implicated of course)
I'm following the logic of Petermac, Andy. Once the alarm had been raised at 10.00pm on the night of the 3rd May, a burial in the immediate vicinity would have been impossible.

DCI Redwood said that Madeleine may not have been alive when she left the apartment. From that, I took that they are indeed acknowledging the evidence of the dogs.

Madeleine was alive at 9.10 on the night of the 3rd, according to Gerry. He claims she was in her bed sleeping peacefully. The abductor therefore only had 50 minutes in which to murder Madeleine and bury her in a place so secure that it has been undisturbed for 7 years.
I think I understand now: The time between the last check and the discovery that Madeleine was missing is 50 minutes, which is insufficient to bury a body so securely that it remains undiscovered after 7 years despite the areas nearby being thoroughly searched at the time. That being the case, she must have been buried earlier than Gerry's alleged check at 21:10.

I'm not convinced that SY will see it that way but that's a different matter

It seems to have gone over the heads of most of those leaving comments on the Mail article, most of which seem to come from the same 'comment' source as the ones the McCanns put on their facebook page.

by ChippyM 06.05.14 12:21

The PR and spin has such a strong hold over these people that have never thought to question the bias of the news they read.

'why so late' .....'Shameful portuguese' etc

Of course the portuguese NEVER searched anywhere because there were no reports of it in the Daily Mail!

by noddy100 06.05.14 12:21

I just think they have been far too cock sure all these years re a body
I think they know it won't be found
BUT I do think the roadworks gave them the perfect opportunity to get rid of clothes (theirs and MM) bags toys etc etc
IF they do find a body I am sure the child will have had some of her things with her as although they appear callous no one would bury their own child without some sort of
regard eg blanket/teddy/bible etc

by Miraflores 06.05.14 12:23

I don't see how the parents are implicated at all unless you take the dog alerts seriously but that isn't something that SY seem willing to do.

I don't think even the dogs' alert implicates the parents directly for any death. IMO it would implicate them for neglect - their daughter's body had lain there long enough for cadaver odour to develop, so they can't possibly have been making regular checks on the children. (Unless they are going to tell us that the 'abductor' stuffed pillows in Madeleine's bed, to fool them into thinking she was still there!)

by ChippyM 06.05.14 12:24

noddy100 wrote:I just think they have been far too cock sure all these years re a body
I think they know it won't be found
BUT I do think the roadworks gave them the perfect opportunity to get rid of clothes (theirs and MM) bags toys etc etc
IF they do find a body I am sure the child will have had some of her things with her as although they appear callous no one would bury their own child without some sort of
regard eg blanket/teddy/bible etc

I don't know Noddy, we've seen how calculating and intelligent enough Gerry is. I bet he wasn't reading those forensics books for a laugh, I don't think he would have done anything sentimental.

by AndyB 06.05.14 12:33

Miraflores wrote:
I don't see how the parents are implicated at all unless you take the dog alerts seriously but that isn't something that SY seem willing to do.

I don't think even the dogs' alert implicates the parents directly for any death. IMO it would implicate them for neglect - their daughter's body had lain there long enough for cadaver odour to develop, so they can't possibly have been making regular checks on the children. (Unless they are going to tell us that the 'abductor' stuffed pillows in Madeleine's bed, to fool them into thinking she was still there!)

It implicates them in the same way that the discovery of Madeleine's body implicates them; there wasn't time between Gerry's check at 21:10, when everything was fine and the alarm being raised at 10pm for cadaverine to have developed (or for her to be buried), therefore Gerry is lying about his check, so what's he trying to hide?

by phil_burton 06.05.14 12:34

If the "dig" is real, and going ahead then it can't possibly put the McCanns in the clear.

If there is anything in the abduction theory, why would the abductor bury his victim close to where he's just taken her from in the hours immediately after the abduction? That's simply not likely, nor is it possible that he/she did this without being spotted that night, and in the timeframe allowed - between the last check and the alarm being raised.

My worry is that this is the end-game to the whitewash, that they miraculously stumble across some evidence that clears the McCanns

by Cristobell 06.05.14 12:35

Digging is something that is usually done at the end of an investigation, not so long ago, we had the tragic case of Mikael Kular, the search for him ended when his body was found close to his aunt's home. The same in the tragic case of Caylee Anthony.

In my opinion, the police would have no idea where to look for a body unless someone had given them information. You don't begin major excavation works by sticking a pin in a map.

Dare we believe it is all over?

by Guest 06.05.14 12:37

worriedmum wrote:but doesn't logic also dictate that if cadaver dogs were to indicate the presence of a body, then the alerts in 5a,on family clothing, the toy left behind AND THE HIRE CAR would have to be examined?

Perhaps they already are.

Why the beach? In "A Estrala de Madeleine" Paulo Christova claims that Eddie traced a trail from Apt 5A to the beach, indicating that cadaver scent was detected down a path that led to the beach. It would be interesting to see if that path coincided with Smithman's walk. What is also interesting is that this contradicts Goncalo's claim in his book that the dog detected no other cadaver scent in the surrounding area:

From "The Truth of the Lie" chapter 16:

"SEARCHES IN THE AREA AROUND VILA DA LUZ

As planned, the searches with Eddie go ahead in and around the village. To leave nothing to chance, he is also put to inspecting the area outlined by Krugel.

Mark Harrison organises a big meeting to direct the work of the search teams. He has conceived the idea of iron bars, whose production he has consigned to a local company. They will be used to sink holes into the ground which will facilitate the possible release of gas emanating from a decomposing body.

Martin, Eddie, the PJ inspectors and members of the GNR, go over with a fine-tooth comb, all the areas where the body of a child might be found. Eddie runs his nose over kilometres of waste ground, ruins, buildings abandoned or under construction, waterways, pipework, along the beach, under every bush, not forgetting the famous Rocha Negra. No evidence of the presence of a body, no cadaver odour anywhere."

And from "A Estrala de Madeleine":

"Chapter 6 - "Death" said Krugel, Eddie and Keela

The month of July marks a turnaround in the case.

A former South-African policeman, Daniel Krugel, offers to help the investigation at no cost. He is an investigator at a SA university, and claims to have invented an equipment that is able to detect the presence of DNA from a specific person. The PJ welcomes his help, as the investigation is facing an imminent standstill.

Krugel stays in Praia da Luz for almost a week and writes a report that demolishes the abduction theory. Madeleine had been killed. Her body had been, or still is, at Praia da Luz. He informs the police and the McCanns about the results, and returns to his country, refusing to discuss his findings.

This is how it is decided to send for two dogs from England. Eddie is trained to detect traces of the presence of a cadaver at any location, while Keela is trained to detect minuscule traces of blood. They have solved over two hundred homicide cases together, and their credibility has never been questioned.

On the last day of July, the intuition of the investigators and the results from Krugel find two powerful allies that confirmed the scenario that had begun to form: the death of Madeleine McCann, on the evening of May 3.

Eddie's handler opens the door to apartment 5A, and lets the dog in, to walk freely as usual. The dog sniffs around, followed by his handler, the policemen, experts from the scientific police, and a video technician, who registers the procedure on tape. At a given moment, in the living room, Eddie signals the presence of a cadaver to his handler. According to the laws of forensics, it's a cadaver that has been in that condition for at least two hours.

Francisco feels like he has been betrayed. It simply does not seem possible for a stranger to have killed the child inside the apartment, remaining on location for one-and-a-half to two hours, at least.

But while his mind is swirling with thoughts, his heart is filled with sadness, as it becomes evident that Madeleine will never be recovered alive.

On the next day, it is Keela who is put into action. After several minutes sniffing around the house, she detains herself next to a sofa in the living room. The investigators move the sofa aside, and Keela shows them two tiny spots of dry blood: one on the floor, the other one on the wall. The material is collected, and a decision is made, against the opinion of Francisco, and João Tavares. The samples are sent into a lab in Birmingham.

On the next day, early in the morning, Eddie is called back to service, to investigate the surroundings of the apartment. The dog stops here and there, marking a path that is referenced by apartment 5A and the beach of Luz. Without knowing, Eddie has just confirmed Krugel's findings.

The only problem with these 'witnesses', is that they cannot testify in court, and none of the work that any of the three - Krugel, Eddie and Keela - had done, could be used in a trial in Portugal.

If those methods are valid in other developed countries, why can't they be admissible in Portugal? Francisco questions.

The same dogs whose effectiveness and training had been decisive in the past to confirm the condemnation of dozens of criminals abroad, would soon be questioned because they had allegedly been "prompted" to make up results that contradicted the theory of an abduction by a stranger."

(Another interesting point raised by Christova is that, according to him, Krugel - far from advocating the abduction theory as I previously thought - "demolishes" it, and it was for this reason that Eddie and Keela were brought in in the first place.)

Perhaps Eddie's trail - if Christova is right - is one of the reasons the beach has been finger-marked for digging. Could this indicate that the dogs' evidence is already being used - it is only their evidence, after all, that indicates the definitive presence of a body in the first place.

by phil_burton 06.05.14 12:37

Cristobell wrote:Digging is something that is usually done at the end of an investigation, not so long ago, we had the tragic case of Mikael Kular, the search for him ended when his body was found close to his aunt's home. The same in the tragic case of Caylee Anthony.

In my opinion, the police would have no idea where to look for a body unless someone had given them information. You don't begin major excavation works by sticking a pin in a map.

Dare we believe it is all over?

What is "it".

If you mean the whitewash, perhaps.

The amount of political involvement in this case since day suggests there are definately greater powers at work. They've done their best to plant theories over the past 3 years to exonerate the McCanns, all that has been missing is concrete evidence to fully clear them. Would you put it past the establishment to have planted a small bit of evidence that says the McCanns weren't involved? Say if they found a bag buried in the sand, with MM's DNA inside, but also fingerprints/hairs/blood from an as yet unidentified person...or a convieniently dead person.

Or have I been watching too many episodes of Sherlock Holmes?

by noddy100 06.05.14 12:46

Sometimes I think SY have been onto them from day one
But if they had given any indication they were thinking that way the McCanns would have stopped the review and
gone down teh acceptance route
I don't think they thought it would ever get this far

by notlongnow 06.05.14 12:52

If any of the T7 are privvy to some details but not the whole picture,they will be bricking it.
Maybe it is a flush out tactic.

by jeanmonroe 06.05.14 12:52

Portuguese Police: "WE PREFER TO TALK LESS AND DO MORE!"

D) Kate McCann and Gerald McCann are involved in the occultation of the cadaver of their child Madeleine McCann;

F) From what was obtained until now, everything points out that the McCann, as self-defence, didn't want to deliver immediately and voluntarily the cadaver, existing a strong possibility that the same was transported from the initial place of deposition. This situation is susceptible to raise questions about the circumstances under which the death of the minor occurred.

by cass7 06.05.14 12:57

i think hopefully lessons have been learned regarding whats found and where , and dna that kind of thing , portugal have had a awful time regarding uk press , yes mistakes were made , and i think it was because they were too trusting , i would hope that both the uk and portugal will want to know the truth because whatever that is anything less is failing madeleine , also i would want another country involved too if i was portugal besides the uk , nothing lost , nothing added just the whole truth

by notlongnow 06.05.14 13:02

Out of interest,who keeps the evidence if any is found?

by **PeterMac** 06.05.14 13:06

To try to pull this together again -
according to the McCanns "Version of the Truth"
The balloon goes up around 10pm
Staff, guests and visitors start searching
Local police arrive 11pm- ish
PJ a little time later.

From that moment and for a very long time afterwards the whole of PdL is in lockdown. It becomes infested with the world's media, investigative journalists, so much so that the family need a Spokes-creature to organise it, and complain bitterly about their lack of privacy. (As we saw on the front page of the Sun some time later ! !)
O'Donnell "We lay by the members-only pool staring at the sky. Round and round, the helicopters clacked and roared. Their cameras pointed down at us, mocking the walled and gated enclave. Circles rippled out across the pool. It was the morning after Madeleine went."

So if Madeleine has been buried, or indeed if anything to do with, or concerned with, Madeleine has been buried, anywhere within Policing or helicopter-with-camera distance of Apartment 5A
it cannot have been done after 9pm 3/5/7

SY is telling the world that they believe that Madeleine was dead a long time BEFORE that. And that belief must remain the case even if the locations they search do not reveal what they hope they may.
Which is an interesting "Theory to Purport," isn't it, Gerry, since you are the one who was the last to see Madeleine alive.
Over to you McMitchell.

FOOTNOTE:
For those interested in such things - NEVER allow yourself to be the Last to see X alive. It is a very dangerous position to put yourself in.

Oldfield realised very late that he was in this difficult position and had to resile very quickly from whether he had actualy SEEN Madeleine or not.
He is of course totally unconvincing about whether he made any such check, and it might be to his advantage, even now, to admit that he made it up, just to 'try to help'.

by Cristobell 06.05.14 13:14

phil_burton wrote:
Cristobell wrote:Digging is something that is usually done at the end of an investigation, not so long ago, we had the tragic case of Mikael Kular, the search for him ended when his body was found close to his aunt's home. The same in the tragic case of Caylee Anthony.

In my opinion, the police would have no idea where to look for a body unless someone had given them information. You don't begin major excavation works by sticking a pin in a map.

Dare we believe it is all over?

What is "it".

If you mean the whitewash, perhaps.

The amount of political involvement in this case since day suggests there are definately greater powers at work. They've done their best to plant theories over the past 3 years to exonerate the McCanns, all that has been missing is concrete evidence to fully clear them. Would you put it past the establishment to have planted a small bit of evidence that says the McCanns weren't involved? Say if they found a bag buried in the sand, with MM's DNA inside, but also fingerprints/hairs/blood from an as yet unidentified person...or a convieniently dead person.

Or have I been watching too many episodes of Sherlock Holmes?

'It' is this 7 year mystery Phil.

And yes, too much Sherlock Holmes, recommend CSI winkwink

by noddy100 06.05.14 13:14

I can't believe they haven't hot footed it over there
After all their antics and demands they are getting what they wanted action.
ANy parent would be on the ground in Portugal no matter how difficult the outcome may be

by Mirage 06.05.14 13:17

This is the top story on Sky. Top story on BBC is Stuart Hall and no mention of PdL as yet. There isn't anything on the BBC News website either. I wonder why?

by Guest 06.05.14 13:18

noddy100 wrote:I can't believe they haven't hot footed it over there
After all their antics and demands they are getting what they wanted action.
ANy parent would be on the ground in Portugal no matter how difficult the outcome may be

Very telling that, isn't it - particularly after it was mooted they would be there last week for the church vigil.

Have events overtaken them, or perhaps they never would have dared in the first place?

by MarleneP 06.05.14 13:24

Why s hould they go...

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by noddy100 06.05.14 13:25

Dee Coy wrote:
noddy100 wrote:I can't believe they haven't hot footed it over there
After all their antics and demands they are getting what they wanted action.
ANy parent would be on the ground in Portugal no matter how difficult the outcome may be
Very telling that, isn't it - particularly after it was mooted they would be there last week for the church vigil.

Have events overtaken them, or perhaps they never would have dared in the first place?

Once this all starts and they don't go I am sure eyebrows will be raised
They can hardly churn out the old "We have been here before" line

by mariola 06.05.14 13:27

Mirage wrote:This is the top story on Sky. Top story on BBC is Stuart Hall and no mention of PdL as yet. There isn't anything on the BBC News website either. I wonder why?

BBC is running it past Nicky Campbell first.This was not supposed to happen! Nicky you told us she was abducted and the McCanns were nice people!