Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by pauloptix 06.05.14 18:57

Dee Coy wrote:I'll wager there'll be no body found in PDL unless it's in the church vaults or graveyard sharing a tomb. Apart from the logistics as described by PeterMac there's the car - so smelly the boot had to be left permanently open, potentially caused by a body itself being in there, rather than items that had merely been removed from the corpse - cadaver scent and fluids found by the dogs within.

It is likely they may find evidence of a shallow grave in one or more places there, where the body may have been temporarily laid before the final resting place found. But I would imagine this would have been in a natural hole covered by rocks, or a space in an empty property, or use of facilities offered by an accomplice to the concealer. I would imagine that this is why we are being told the search will be for evidence, not necessarily a body. Would anyone know how long cadaver scent remains on objects open to the elements if the corpse is no longer present?

All own speculation and opinion, as ever.

I'm with you on this one. My interest in this case and subsequently this forum came from researching my own theory that the PDL church is a key feature in this entire 'Mystery'.
What better place to hide a body than an existing tomb? Who's ever going to lift it to check?
I've researched images of the church interior, but have never yet seen an obvious hiding place.
Anyone have thoughts or interesting theories on this?

by SixMillionQuid 06.05.14 19:04

PeterMac wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
Nereid wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
According to article this bit of waste ground is to be dug:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Surrounded by apartments, and no one noticed anything? Hmmmm
.......... And which abductor / burglar would be likely to stop and bury anything here?
And they didn't.
The point at the top right, next to the 'W' of Waste ground is the Smith sighting.
I do not remember their report of a man digging !

That ground is hard and stony. It would need a JCB to break it. (And Yes, I have been there, with Pat !)

I'm sure that waste ground is in the direction where the first set of sniffer dogs went. Somebody mentioned they went in the opposite direction of Tanner's bundleman.

by bobbin 06.05.14 19:05

Newintown wrote:
Ayniia wrote:
Snifferdog wrote:
Could it be possible that the car alert was caused by contamination of items used in the mopping up operation? We know that apartment 5a was scrupulously cleaned. Perhaps these items used to clean up leaked their contents in the car, and were not actually fluids directly from Maddie's body. Imo and just purporting a theory.
I don't think that's possible, 5A was cleaned way before the car being rented and there was hairs /traces of body fluids in the booth of the car plus the odor . GA seems to have no doubts that the body was in that booth.

You seem to be questioning the work of the forensic team. I'm sure forensic experts would be well able to tell the difference between a frozen cadaver and cleaning fluids. There were signs that the body had been frozen and was thawing out, hence the ice falling out from the corner of the car onto the kerb (as mentioned in GA's papers).

I think we need to see the Portuguese 'original' here. I feel that the 'Kerb' is an incorrect translation and that the 'curba ?' mentioned is referring to going 'round a bend' (French la courbe) and something fell into that part of the boot, inside.

A kerb in Portuguese is more like 'footpath', so if someone can help with the original Portuguese, we can be sure if the forensic contamination was from something falling over in the boot and leaking, 'going round a bend', rather than becoming something which fell outside of the car. I can't see anywhere, where a kerb was inspected by the dogs.

Ayniia, can you help with this. Thanks.

ETA just adding a post from earlier on today, where the question of a 'kerb' might have arisen.

sar Today at 2:32 am
only just read GA's reference to the car, think he cites the rear right hand side as possible source for "material" leakage? Didn't someone here recently notice GM's reluctance to place something in the boot / trunk of the car on a certain side in the "wearing gloves / not wearing gloves" video? Furthermore, if some material did fall from the car onto the ground (could just be reading this wrongly) where is it, where was it analysed? Did the word "curb" mean kerb as we understand it in English usage? If so where was the kerb?

by **PeterMac** 06.05.14 19:06

View-from-Ireland wrote:Two things strike me about that photo of the waste ground location.
1. It is located close to the tennis courts and would therefore be something anybody who played tennis there would be quite aware of
2. The Tanner siting at 9.15/9.20pm placed bundleman/eggman or whatever else we want to call name walking in the complete opposite direction to both the waste ground and the Smith siting of 9.55/10pm.
Does anybody else find all this quite intriguing, especially now that it seems this area of ground near the Smith siting and in the opposite direction of the Tanner siting will apparently be dug at some point?

No.
They will not dig there. There is no trace of freshly broken ground, there are no recent holes, there is no EVIDENCE
It is as pointless as - - - a broken pencil. (Blackadder qv.)
The ground is stony, compacted from years of use as a car park (look on google maps) rock hard, it is in open view, it would need a JCB and half an hour to dig a hole big enough to hide a tennis racquet - (I think that is the authorised wording isn;t it Carter-Ruck !) To dig by hand would take a working day.

Where, and IF they dig anywhere is another matter. Or indeed, as mentioned above, if they already HAVE . . .
Some of us have suggested a location to Grange, with analysis, reasons, and a little evidence.
At least one in fact, but they have to be clinical about it.

by BigRon 06.05.14 19:06

Could the PJ even allowing SY to dig mean that SY have intimated to them they are moving towards looking at building a case against the McCanns?

If SY were following the Op Grange remit of assuming an abductor then it's strange for them to be digging up parts of the resort? What possible evidence could they be looking for if still working on the abduction hypothesis?

And is using cadaver dogs sending a message to the McCanns? i.e. WE don't think they're unreliable Gerry - so watch out!!

by Watching 06.05.14 19:07

Tony Bennett wrote:

Russiandoll wrote:

In an open letter dated today, Assistant Commissioner Rowley said he had explained the Metropolitan Police's practice of making public as much information as possible, but respects the Portuguese position.

Metropolitan Police’s Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has blamed the Portuguese authorities for the lack of information being made public by Operation Grange.

REPLY: The Met are bringing out ever bigger guns.

A few months ago, it was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt who was wheeled out to offer his verbally-challenged quote that "the tempo of the investigation is moving forward".

Now it's an Assistant Commissioner - Mark Rowley, one step down from Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - who is coming out of the woodwork - mainly, it seems, to bash, yet again, the Portuguese Police, instead of publicly thanking them.

If it is true, as reported, that the Portuguese government (because they have to be involved) has sanctioned a dig by Scotland Yard - a force that has criticised them time and again, from a country whose media have criticised them time and time again as well - then we can be sure that something very very strange is going on.

I think I have said on many occasions that from Day One this Scotland Yard operation has been about shaping public perception, and never was a genuine enquiry into the facts.

This latest episode of the dig doesn't persuade me to alter my opinion one jot.

Evening, in complete agreement!

by View-from-Ireland 06.05.14 19:10

PeterMac wrote:
View-from-Ireland wrote:Two things strike me about that photo of the waste ground location.
1. It is located close to the tennis courts and would therefore be something anybody who played tennis there would be quite aware of
2. The Tanner siting at 9.15/9.20pm placed bundleman/eggman or whatever else we want to call name walking in the complete opposite direction to both the waste ground and the Smith siting of 9.55/10pm.
Does anybody else find all this quite intriguing, especially now that it seems this area of ground near the Smith siting and in the opposite direction of the Tanner siting will apparently be dug at some point?

No.
They will not dig there. There is no trace of freshly broken ground, there are no recent holes, there is no EVIDENCE
It is as pointless as - - - a broken pencil. (Blackadder qv.)
The ground is stony, compacted from years of use as a car park (look on google maps) rock hard, it is in open view, it would need a JCB and half an hour to dig a hole big enough to hide a tennis racquet - (I think that is the authorised wording isn;t it Carter-Ruck !) To dig by hand would take a working day.

Where, and IF they dig anywhere is another matter. Or indeed, as mentioned above, if they already HAVE . . .
Some of us have suggested a location to Grange, with analysis, reasons, and a little evidence.
At least one in fact, but they have to be clinical about it.

Thank you for your reply Peter Mac, much appreciated and noted. I know you guys have a much more detailed knowledge of this case than I

by Snifferdog 06.05.14 19:13

Tony Bennett wrote:

Russiandoll wrote:

In an open letter dated today, Assistant Commissioner Rowley said he had explained the Metropolitan Police's practice of making public as much information as possible, but respects the Portuguese position.

Metropolitan Police’s Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has blamed the Portuguese authorities for the lack of information being made public by Operation Grange.

REPLY: The Met are bringing out ever bigger guns.

A few months ago, it was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt who was wheeled out to offer his verbally-challenged quote that "the tempo of the investigation is moving forward".

Now it's an Assistant Commissioner - Mark Rowley, one step down from Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - who is coming out of the woodwork - mainly, it seems, to bash, yet again, the Portuguese Police, instead of publicly thanking them.

If it is true, as reported, that the Portuguese government (because they have to be involved) has sanctioned a dig by Scotland Yard - a force that has criticised them time and again, from a country whose media have criticised them time and time again as well - then we can be sure that something very very strange is going on.

I think I have said on many occasions that from Day One this Scotland Yard operation has been about shaping public perception, and never was a genuine enquiry into the facts.

This latest episode of the dig doesn't persuade me to alter my opinion one jot.

I do find it odd that Scotland Yard gives a running commentary on their review in the first place. Giving interviews on tv etc. I am of the same opinion re. your post Tony.
Imo it is possible that there is involvement by very influential people in the MM case that are able to superseed nationalities, or smacks of involvement by powerful Portuguese people as well. Remember that GA was removed from the case, which shows interference too.
I do hope the Portuguese withstand the pressures being placed on them.

by TMH 06.05.14 19:16

So, they expect people to believe that a smelly, pot bellied paedophile ran through the streets with a dead child in one arm and an awful big shovel in the other so that he can bury her in hard stoney wasteground and cover up the hole so good that it didn't look like a fresh hole? And then run back to 5a smearing cadaver smell in the wardrobe. behind the sofa and over Kates clothes? Sheesh!

wft

by Mirage 06.05.14 19:28

Snifferdog wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:

Russiandoll wrote:

In an open letter dated today, Assistant Commissioner Rowley said he had explained the Metropolitan Police's practice of making public as much information as possible, but respects the Portuguese position.

Metropolitan Police’s Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has blamed the Portuguese authorities for the lack of information being made public by Operation Grange.

REPLY: The Met are bringing out ever bigger guns.

A few months ago, it was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt who was wheeled out to offer his verbally-challenged quote that "the tempo of the investigation is moving forward".

Now it's an Assistant Commissioner - Mark Rowley, one step down from Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - who is coming out of the woodwork - mainly, it seems, to bash, yet again, the Portuguese Police, instead of publicly thanking them.

If it is true, as reported, that the Portuguese government (because they have to be involved) has sanctioned a dig by Scotland Yard - a force that has criticised them time and again, from a country whose media have criticised them time and time again as well - then we can be sure that something very very strange is going on.

I think I have said on many occasions that from Day One this Scotland Yard operation has been about shaping public perception, and never was a genuine enquiry into the facts.

This latest episode of the dig doesn't persuade me to alter my opinion one jot.
I do find it odd that Scotland Yard gives a running commentary on their review in the first place. Giving interviews on tv etc. I am of the same opinion re. your post Tony.
Imo it is possible that there is involvement by very influential people in the MM case that superseeds nationalities, or smacks of involvement by powerful Portuguese people as well. Remember thst GA was removed from the case.

I don't underestimate what you say Snifferdog and Tony by any means, but the Mcs have become a liability to the Establishment. Maybe certain ducks have been put in a row behind the scenes amid an acceptance that the public are in no mood for the continuation of this charade in the current backlash against corruption.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 19:34

Those dig locations are simple misdirection. They seem to be very likely spots for anyone who is not familiar with the case, but they won't be digging there.

by Newintown 06.05.14 19:35

Snifferdog wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:

Russiandoll wrote:

In an open letter dated today, Assistant Commissioner Rowley said he had explained the Metropolitan Police's practice of making public as much information as possible, but respects the Portuguese position.

Metropolitan Police’s Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has blamed the Portuguese authorities for the lack of information being made public by Operation Grange.

REPLY: The Met are bringing out ever bigger guns.

A few months ago, it was Deputy Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt who was wheeled out to offer his verbally-challenged quote that "the tempo of the investigation is moving forward".

Now it's an Assistant Commissioner - Mark Rowley, one step down from Met Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe - who is coming out of the woodwork - mainly, it seems, to bash, yet again, the Portuguese Police, instead of publicly thanking them.

If it is true, as reported, that the Portuguese government (because they have to be involved) has sanctioned a dig by Scotland Yard - a force that has criticised them time and again, from a country whose media have criticised them time and time again as well - then we can be sure that something very very strange is going on.

I think I have said on many occasions that from Day One this Scotland Yard operation has been about shaping public perception, and never was a genuine enquiry into the facts.

This latest episode of the dig doesn't persuade me to alter my opinion one jot.
I do find it odd that Scotland Yard gives a running commentary on their review in the first place. Giving interviews on tv etc. I am of the same opinion re. your post Tony.
Imo it is possible that there is involvement by very influential people in the MM case that are able to superseed nationalities, or smacks of involvement by powerful Portuguese people as well. Remember that GA was removed from the case, which shows interference too.
I do hope the Portuguese withstand the pressures being placed on them.

re the sanctioned dig by Scotland Yard, it seems to me that's it's the other way around, that the PJ are doing the digging where they think they should be digging and SY have been invited as "on lookers".

Or have I missed something somewhere?

I also can't see Mark Rowley as bashing the PJ, in fact I thought he came out earlier today and said something along the lines that the news media should be careful of what they say in future (I can't remember the exact words at the mo).

by Newintown 06.05.14 19:37

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:Those dig locations are simple misdirection. They seem to be very likely spots for anyone who is not familiar with the case, but they won't be digging there.

No doubt the PJ have been digging elsewhere away from the glare of publicity, journalists and McCann hangers-on.

by **Tony Bennett** 06.05.14 19:37

Snifferdog wrote:
Imo it is possible that there is involvement by very influential people in the MM case that are able to superseed nationalities, or smacks of involvement by powerful Portuguese people as well. Remember that GA was removed from the case, which shows interference too.
I do hope the Portuguese withstand the pressures being placed on them.

Agreed, Snifferdog, you have alluded to a dimension that perhaps we should not ignore.

We have some idea of the sheer power of some of the major players in this production: Rupert Murdoch & Rebekah Brooks, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown & David Cameron, and on the Portuguese side, their President, Jose Soctrates. Plus the mainstream media.

I do not by any means discount an international dimension to this.

Moreover, in addition to the point you've made about Goncalo Amaral, let us also recall how the McCann Team employed, via Metodo 3, the Madeira lawyer Marcos Aragao Correia (now in Brazil) to represent murderess-of-her-own-child Leonor Cipriano in her claim of having been tortured by Goncalo Amaral and his men. The conviction of Amaral for 'perjury' or for making a false statement, whichever it was, has proved extremely helpful to those who hate Amaral for his investigation and his book.

Do we not have to consider that the judges in that case might well have been 'persuaded', by those even more powerful than themselves, to 'get' Amaral if they possibly could - on anything?

I read the evidence in that case - and Leonor Cipriano lied, and lied, and lied and lied again in that trial (and on many previous occasions). Has she ever been charged with perjury? - let alone tried and convicted?

NO.

Then who decided that the murderess, Cipriano, should not be prosecuted - but that Amaral should be found guilty of perjury?

by **Tony Bennett** 06.05.14 19:39

Newintown wrote:

I also can't see Mark Rowley as bashing the PJ, in fact I thought he came out earlier today and said something along the lines that the news media should be careful of what they say in future (I can't remember the exact words at the mo).

Then you obvioulsy missed this bit, Newintown, quoted verbatim above:

Metropolitan Police’s Assistant Commissioner Mark Rowley has blamed the Portuguese authorities for the lack of information being made public by Operation Grange.

by Snifferdog 06.05.14 19:44

I believe the establishment is involved up to their necks Mirage. I agree that they would love for all this to disappear, and are trying very hard to make it happen. I believe that were other powerful individuals fully involved, and not just the tapas 7, else Mccanns would not be protected to the degree they are. Things went wrong/did not turn out as expected, imo and herein lies the hot potato no one wants.
I wish I could say here what I really think.

by Mirage 06.05.14 19:47

Snifferdog wrote:I believe the establishment is involved up to their necks Mirage. I agree that they would love for all this to disappear, and are trying very hard to make it happen. I believe that were other powerful individuals fully involved, and not just the tapas 7, else Mccanns would not be protected to the degree they are. Things went wrong/did not turn out as expected, imo and herein lies the hot potato no one wants.
I wish I could say here what I really think.

Ditto Snifferdog. But I understand exactly what you are saying.

by notlongnow 06.05.14 19:48

Surely this dig is going to make even more people look into this a little more.

by TheTruthWillOut 06.05.14 19:50

notlongnow wrote:Surely this dig is going to make even more people look into this a little more.

Well I may be wrong, but there are almost 700 people online here ATM. Isn't that higher than normal?

So I'm going with yes.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 19:51

notlongnow wrote:Surely this dig is going to make even more people look into this a little more.

Scotland Yard take pride in whitewashing investigations in the most difficult and unlikely way possible.

by Mirage 06.05.14 20:02

TheTruthWillOut wrote:
notlongnow wrote:Surely this dig is going to make even more people look into this a little more.

Well I may be wrong, but there are almost 700 people online here ATM. Isn't that higher than normal?

So I'm going with yes.

Yes it is TheTruthWillOut. There were just over 200 yesterday late afternoon. Whenever I glance at the numbers they are usually around the 180/190 mark as a rough guide. From memory, it goes up to the 200/210 mark or thereabouts depending on time of day/what's happening with the case. Obviously it has hit the heights at key times. So yes, I am sure many people follow the case here. The trouble is that heavily-censored comments boards on national newspapers have skewed perceptions, but I trust in the great British public's sense of fair play and nous for knowing when things don't add up.

by Guest 06.05.14 20:16

TheTruthWillOut wrote:
notlongnow wrote:Surely this dig is going to make even more people look into this a little more.

Well I may be wrong, but there are almost 700 people online here ATM. Isn't that higher than normal?

So I'm going with yes.

There was 2,583 people online here when Crimewatch was aired last October.

by Monty Heck 06.05.14 20:19

suzyjohnson wrote:
Cristobell wrote:Wouldn't the parents be implicated if a body is found, regardless of its condition?

Aren't they implicated merely by the digs taking place?

As Petermac pointed out, the body must have been buried before the alarm was raised - by the following day PDL had filled with investigative reporters and the extended families of the McCanns and the Healys.

The idea that a lone abductor or even a paedophile gang would hang around or even return to bury the child in that area, in the full glare of the world's press is absurd.

I hope this hasn't been said already, I'm a few pages behind, but further to the above -

It must be obvious to SY as well that anything found by digging in this area implicates the McCanns, so, in other words, SY must be considering the McCanns as suspects after all. Which, in turn, must be obvious to the McCanns. I'm not convinced that the police will find MM buried in PdL (how does the evidence from the car fit in if that were the case?) but IMO the fact that SY have sent a request to dig in this area sends a clear message to the McCanns and anyone within the Tapas group who may have been involved.

Just catching up here so apologies if this has been answered already. It might be the case that minute traces of soil, vegetation etc peculiar to certain locations were found within the hire care, along with the biological samples which were recovered.

by Guest 06.05.14 20:22

Regarding the warning to the media about the risk to the operation, would that apply to TM briefing the press?

I can envisage pinky spining into overdrive in an attempt to derail this phase of the investigation. But then again if that does occur then imo that would be another nail in their coffin.

by Tangled Web 06.05.14 20:30

With regards to the warning to the media, if this is to be a whitewash and the PJ are in on it then all that needs to happen is for the media to conduct themselves in the manner they usually do (I doubt they could help themselves), the PJ get annoyed and halt the dig. Both police forces blame the media. Simples. Job's a goodun.

by Shhh 06.05.14 20:34

How useful would a child's spade be?

Just thinking aloud

by Dutchgirl 06.05.14 20:35

I wonder if this dig has anything to do with the fridge?

by **Tony Bennett** 06.05.14 20:46

Mr Mark Williams-Know-All has waded in with his big boots:

Mark Williams-Thomas ‏@mwilliamsthomas 25m

The Met police Op.Grange requests have now been authorised & passed to PJ's. Issues of Sovereignty & relationships are now the barrier.

by Lioned 06.05.14 20:51

Dutchgirl wrote:I wonder if this dig has anything to do with the fridge?

There's a good chance of there being about 8 fridges dumped on that bit of waste land but probably not many plug points.

by HelenMeg 06.05.14 20:54

Monty Heck wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:
Cristobell wrote:Wouldn't the parents be implicated if a body is found, regardless of its condition?

Aren't they implicated merely by the digs taking place?

As Petermac pointed out, the body must have been buried before the alarm was raised - by the following day PDL had filled with investigative reporters and the extended families of the McCanns and the Healys.

The idea that a lone abductor or even a paedophile gang would hang around or even return to bury the child in that area, in the full glare of the world's press is absurd.

I hope this hasn't been said already, I'm a few pages behind, but further to the above -

It must be obvious to SY as well that anything found by digging in this area implicates the McCanns, so, in other words, SY must be considering the McCanns as suspects after all. Which, in turn, must be obvious to the McCanns. I'm not convinced that the police will find MM buried in PdL (how does the evidence from the car fit in if that were the case?) but IMO the fact that SY have sent a request to dig in this area sends a clear message to the McCanns and anyone within the Tapas group who may have been involved.
Just catching up here so apologies if this has been answered already. It might be the case that minute traces of soil, vegetation etc peculiar to certain locations were found within the hire care, along with the biological samples which were recovered.

Yes, or Dutchgirl also refers to the fridge. In the media reports relating to this it does mention that they have emphasised that they are not necessarily digging to locate a body. I tend to think that it is very possible this dig is not to locate a body.

Although if the first resting place were a fridge and then the body was transported by car then it may not be at all relevant. I cant see how this dig means that SY are considering the Mc Canns as suspects = how does this request to dig send a message to the parents etc? I'm struggling to see this unless M's first resting place was in one of these locations.