Re: Scotland Yard’s rotten core: Police failed to address Met's ‘endemic corruption’ - Independent - 10/1/14

by Mirage 10.01.14 12:19

Tony Bennett wrote:
Mirage wrote:A very interesting read on Sir Robert Mark, Tony. I remember the Balcombe street seige amongst other snippets.

Looking at his achievements leaves you, head in hands. I noticed for example, that while the deputy commissioner struggled to read a statement outside the Duggan court this week while facing a (predictably) very ugly crowd, Hogan-Howe was busy in the office drafting statements about how the police must look more like, and feel more like, Londoners. What a load of tripe.

Yes, Muslim police officers patrolling the streets of Tower Hamlets in niqabs and burkas. That'll really make a difference!

"That'll really make a difference"
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And possibly unidentifiable?

I feel another doctorate from Portsmouth University coming on: Undercover Policing in London.

by aiyoyo 10.01.14 13:01

Mirage wrote:
plebgate wrote:Re. the expense of all of this. Would be good if we could be told whether a lie detector request has been made by SY/PJ for them ALL to do a polygraph test. It could be the case that millions more of public funds need not be spent. My opinion of course because it is possible new info. could come to light.

Only - and I mean only Plebgate, as long as that Dr Leal is not in charge of the process!

Set a Liar to catch a Liar ! Good Innit?

by **PeterMac** 10.01.14 18:32

Robert Mark was a family friend through the Hulme Grammar school.
When I was 18 and he was DAC he advised me never to join the Met ! !

by Guest 10.01.14 18:56

Shocking!!!

by ultimaThule 10.01.14 19:07

Mirage wrote:Following on from the conversation about police officers making public statements that can come back to haunt them, the following re Hogan-Howe and plebgate:

Lord Macdonald criticised Sir Bernard for saying he believed his officers had told the truth before the investigation began. The peer said the remark was “plain foolish” and “a remarkable act of fairground clairvoyance”. (does he mean spin?)
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Let us sincerely hope that no other pre-investigation bias ever rears its ugly head ever ever again at Scotland Yard.
Ever.

What does Lord Macdonald make of Dr Sharon Leal's pronouncement that the McCanns are 100% innocent?

As soon as Mark retired it was business as usual at SY. The current gaggle of posing and posturing clowns running the Met are a disgrace and with officers such as DI Clive Driscoll being forced into retirement, I very much doubt that the era of pre-investigation bias is at an end.

Fwiw, Shazza is a prime example of confirmation bias contributing to overconfidence and it's somewhat worrying that her biography claims her 'work involves co-operation with national and international governments and police' with no explanation of whether she is expected to co-operate with them, or they are expected to co-operate with her psychological egoism which predisposes her to cite illusory correlation as fact.

by Mirage 10.01.14 19:29

ultimaThule wrote:
Mirage wrote:Following on from the conversation about police officers making public statements that can come back to haunt them, the following re Hogan-Howe and plebgate:

Lord Macdonald criticised Sir Bernard for saying he believed his officers had told the truth before the investigation began. The peer said the remark was “plain foolish” and “a remarkable act of fairground clairvoyance”. (does he mean spin?)
----------------------
Let us sincerely hope that no other pre-investigation bias ever rears its ugly head ever ever again at Scotland Yard.
Ever.
What does Lord Macdonald make of Dr Sharon Leal's pronouncement that the McCanns are 100% innocent?

As soon as Mark retired it was business as usual at SY. The current gaggle of posing and posturing clowns running the Met are a disgrace and with officers such as DI Clive Driscoll being forced into retirement, I very much doubt that the era of pre-investigation bias is at an end.

Fwiw, Shazza is a prime example of confirmation bias contributing to overconfidence and it's somewhat worrying that her biography claims her 'work involves co-operation with national and international governments and police' with no explanation of whether she is expected to co-operate with them, or they are expected to co-operate with her psychological egoism which predisposes her to cite illusory correlation as fact.

I noticed that Driscoll was going, UT. Significantly, Doreen Lawrence stated she was very upset about it because he was the only policeman she had ever trusted and that there were more culprits to be brought to book than the two already gaoled. Makes me wonder, having lived in SE London for many years!!!

Do we know the low down on Driscoll's sudden departure? Sounded a good guy to me so probably didn't fit in. Tut tut, cynicism again. Just that you pick up the vibes from that era and that area if you know what I mean.

Btw UT, many thanks for your kind wishes of yesterday.

by Guest 10.01.14 20:43

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Then they, sort of... erm, as it were, decided they didn't after all. I think.

Sounds almost like a Tapas 9 statement. Sort of. Erm.

by jeanmonroe 10.01.14 21:17

I predict Hogan-Howe will resign very shortly (out of honour, not to protect his pension, you'll understand).

He is facing a sh*t storm and now THIS:

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Hillsborough (cover up)
Plebgate (he backed officers 100% saying 'why would they lie?') Then one pleads guilty to doing just that, today.
Lawrence spying (SDS) He knew.
Dead kids names by cops (he knew)
Raised funds for possible future suspects.

He's toast.
And then perhaps Andy will grow a pair and 'do the right thing' for Madeleine before he goes as well.

all imo, obviously.

You heard it HERE first!

by **PeterMac** 10.01.14 22:36

There seems to be an awful lot of 100% flying around at the moment.

Why not just say you agree, or support, or believe on the balance of probabilities, or whatever.

by Okeydokey 10.01.14 22:45

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:I watched Hogan-Howe's interview on the C4 news the other night. These are just my own instinctual feelings, but I came away with a great sense of dislike and distrust.

I have remained optimistic that SY are doing the right thing, but I have to say that this week my faith in them has come crashing down.

On a personal note, I've known a few police officers, not least of whom is my own father, now retired. He said that his job was to "lie for a living", that the policing in 'Life on Mars' was pretty accurate, and that these days all the police are interested in is money and public relations, actual justice coming in a very sad last place. I had an acquaintance (not a friend) who became a police office to "beat up" (his words) a particular ethnic minority. On the other hand, I knew one particular Chief Inspector for years who was one of the finest, most honourable people I've known. And from PeterMac's work on this forum, I'm certain that he has much in common with him.

The police are a mixed bag, for certain.

It's sad when one has to give up one's faith in the Police.

Just out of interest - was your Dad a Freemason or did he have any views on how the prevalence of Freemasonry within the Police?

by Mirage 10.01.14 22:57

Re: Hillsborough.

Private Eye magazine had a freedom of information (FOI) request turned down by the Met.

The Met has yet to comment, but reportedly turned down the FOI request to "safeguard national security".

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Wasn't the same excuse given re an FOI request about the Mcs?

Convenient little coverall national security.

by jeanmonroe 10.01.14 23:17

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I watched Hogan-Howe's interview on the C4 news the other night. These are just my own instinctual feelings, but I came away with a great sense of dislike and distrust.
==================================================================

Does anyone seriously think that BHH, who helped raise money, for the McCanns PRIVATE Ltd 'enterprise' is going to let DCI Redwood find his 'friends' possibly guilty of anything, other than 'Sainthood'?

thinking

er, um, ...NO!

The current Met Commissioner BHH raised money for a couple that might possibly be implicated in their own daughters 'disappearance'!

by Guest 10.01.14 23:20

Mirage wrote:Re: Hillsborough.

Private Eye magazine had a freedom of information (FOI) request turned down by the Met.

The Met has yet to comment, but reportedly turned down the FOI request to "safeguard national security".

-----------------------

Wasn't the same excuse given re an FOI request about the Mcs?

Convenient little coverall national security.

Hmm. The same phrase used by Leicestershire police when they turned down the foi request from Jon Clements when he enquired about potential surveillance techniques being used in the McCann case. (In addition the information he requested could also refer to 'the security bodies' i.e., MI5 et al, they said in their reply to him.) So he got a big fat 'no' too.

Perhaps we can take rhe phrase 'national security' to mean 'protecting our own asses' when used by police forces being confronted by nasty questions? Or is it more literal than that?

by sallypelt 10.01.14 23:29

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by jeanmonroe 10.01.14 23:39

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“It is completely unacceptable for a serving police officer to falsify an account of any incident," said Mr Cameron.
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A serving, lying, police officer that Cameron/May appointee Hogan-Howe 'totally backed' 100%!

UNTIL TODAY RIGHT UP TO THE STEPS OF THE COURT!

Where the officer pleaded guilty to blatantly lying!

I'd have fallen on my sword, instantly!

Hogan-Howe, Norman Bettison BOTH cast from the same mould, imo.

Rotten to the core, in my opinion.

by Mirage 11.01.14 0:16

jeanmonroe wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

“It is completely unacceptable for a serving police officer to falsify an account of any incident," said Mr Cameron.
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A serving, lying, police officer that Cameron/May appointee Hogan-Howe 'totally backed' 100%!

UNTIL TODAY RIGHT UP TO THE STEPS OF THE COURT!

Where the officer pleaded guilty to blatantly lying!

I'd have fallen on my sword, instantly!

Hogan-Howe, Norman Bettison BOTH cast from the same mould, imo.

Rotten to the core, in my opinion.

Apparently PC Plebgate-Liar fell far below the standards expected at the MET according to Hogan-Howe!!!

Err, is that it?

by Halfwit 11.01.14 0:20

jeanmonroe wrote:whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I watched Hogan-Howe's interview on the C4 news the other night. These are just my own instinctual feelings, but I came away with a great sense of dislike and distrust.
==================================================================

Does anyone seriously think that BHH, who helped raise money, for the McCanns PRIVATE Ltd 'enterprise' is going to let DCI Redwood find his 'friends' possibly guilty of anything, other than 'Sainthood'?

er, um, ...NO!

The current Met Commissioner BHH raised money for a couple that might possibly be implicated in their own daughters 'disappearance'!

I find that so scary.

The implications of corruption from the top of Government downwards... And now I do believe that they're all corrupt. I'm no Icke fan or conspiracy theorist but my ears pricked up over David Kelly and the police involvement in that.

I joined this forum a few days ago because I think its evolved into the best forum. It's found its feet with great mods and thoughtful, interesting posters. I've been dipping in and out from the start and have nothing new to add but tonight I'm feeling that it will never be resolved.

I despair that the truth of this will ever be revealed.

by marconi 11.01.14 0:27

Is it a coincidence or on purpose? The Telegraaf announces further steps of the Yard's and the Independent publishes about the corruption of that police.

What is behind it? THe identification of 3 persons of interest, does the Independent want to crash eventual conclusions, is it protecting the parents? "Whatever the Met say, they are corrupt and it is not true"?

by Okeydokey 11.01.14 0:40

jeanmonroe wrote:whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:
I watched Hogan-Howe's interview on the C4 news the other night. These are just my own instinctual feelings, but I came away with a great sense of dislike and distrust.
==================================================================

Does anyone seriously think that BHH, who helped raise money, for the McCanns PRIVATE Ltd 'enterprise' is going to let DCI Redwood find his 'friends' possibly guilty of anything, other than 'Sainthood'?

er, um, ...NO!

The current Met Commissioner BHH raised money for a couple that might possibly be implicated in their own daughters 'disappearance'!

Sadly, I agree.

by jeanmonroe 11.01.14 0:41

"Whatever the Met say, they are corrupt and it is not true"
----------------------------------------------------
Oxymoron thingy? Or me being a moron?

"they are corrupt......it is not true"

by Halfwit 11.01.14 0:49

jeanmonroe wrote:"Whatever the Met say, they are corrupt and it is not true"
----------------------------------------------------
Oxymoron thingy? Or me being a moron?

"they are corrupt......it is not true"

You are no moron jean. oxy or not.

by jeanmonroe 11.01.14 0:58

Mirage:

Apparently PC Plebgate-Liar fell far below the standards expected at the MET according to Hogan-Howe!!!
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Yeah, he was dumb enough to get CAUGHT!

The MET certainly do NOT expect THAT from their officers!

big grin

by **Tony Bennett** 11.01.14 7:57

jeanmonroe wrote:Mirage:

Apparently PC Plebgate-Liar fell far below the standards expected at the MET according to Hogan-Howe!!!

What an utterly, pathetically weak statement from Hyphen-Howe.

If I was his boss, I would have said: "You deliberately lied about being present when you were not there, your actions brought down a serving Cabinet Minister of the United Kingdom and you've brpough disgrace on the police; you're sacked without notice for gross misconduct, and you will lose your pension rights. Don't even think of asking us for a reference".

by **PeterMac** 11.01.14 8:46

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LEGISLATION
The relevant legislation can be found in Regulation K5 of the Police Pensions Regulations 1987. Paragraphs 2 and 3 allow a police authority to determine forfeiture in cases where a pensioner has been convicted of treason or of offences under the Official Secrets Acts 1911 to 1939 and has been sentenced to a term (or terms) of imprisonment of at least ten years. Forfeiture in these rare cases is entirely a matter for the police authority concerned.
2. Paragraph 4 allows a police authority to determine forfeiture where a member of a police force has been convicted of an offence committed in connection with his/her service as a member of a police force which is certified by the Secretary of State either to have been gravely injurious to the interests of the State or to be liable to lead to serious loss of confidence in the public service.
3. Paragraph 5 allows a police authority to determine the extent to which the pension should be forfeited. This may be permanent or temporary and may affect the whole or part of the pension.
4. Regulation H5 of the Police Pensions Regulations provides a right of appeal to the Crown Court against the police authority’s role in the decision to forfeit the pension. Regulation H6 provides a right of appeal to a tribunal appointed by the Secretary of State, as police authority, if the pensioner was a central police officer.

I think it could be argued that bringing down a Minister of the Crown is gravely injurious to the interests of the State.
I think it can certainly be argued that the actions have lead to a serious loss of confidence in the public service.

by **Tony Bennett** 11.01.14 8:49

PeterMac wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
LEGISLATION
The relevant legislation can be found in Regulation K5 of the Police Pensions Regulations 1987. Paragraphs 2 and 3 allow a police authority to determine forfeiture in cases where a pensioner has been convicted of treason or of offences under the Official Secrets Acts 1911 to 1939 and has been sentenced to a term (or terms) of imprisonment of at least ten years. Forfeiture in these rare cases is entirely a matter for the police authority concerned.
2. Paragraph 4 allows a police authority to determine forfeiture where a member of a police force has been convicted of an offence committed in connection with his/her service as a member of a police force which is certified by the Secretary of State either to have been gravely injurious to the interests of the State or to be liable to lead to serious loss of confidence in the public service.
3. Paragraph 5 allows a police authority to determine the extent to which the pension should be forfeited. This may be permanent or temporary and may affect the whole or part of the pension.
4. Regulation H5 of the Police Pensions Regulations provides a right of appeal to the Crown Court against the police authority’s role in the decision to forfeit the pension. Regulation H6 provides a right of appeal to a tribunal appointed by the Secretary of State, as police authority, if the pensioner was a central police officer.

I think it could be argued that bringing down a Minister of the Crown is gravely injurious to the interests of the State.
I think it can certainly be argued that the actions have lead to a serious loss of confidence in the public service.

Thanks for the references, PM, and I think both apply.

In addition, if I was Bernard Hyphen-Howe. I'd have the public decency to resign

by Rob Royston 11.01.14 9:20

Did this officer make a clean confession to lying or was he proven to be a liar?

Like the saying goes, "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." We should make every effort to promote honesty in the police, which will obviously need a large degree of confession from many.

by Mirage 11.01.14 9:37

Defence lawyer, Mr Gibbs, struggling to defend the indefensible and thereby making things a whole lot worse for the MET.................
"And at an earlier hearing, Mr Gibbs claimed that Wallis had an ‘ongoing psychiatric history’ which left him struggling to even remember his own address"
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Funny that, he didn't have any trouble remembering his e-mail password. Did he?

Did Mr Hogan-Howe-Are-You-Still-Here know he had a mentally ill PC on his hands before he spoke of his 100 per cent belief in the veracity of the man's statement. The statement that was so likely to force a cabinet minister's resignation?

by Mirage 11.01.14 9:57

And asked whether the affair had become a ‘major crisis’ for the Met, Croydon South MP Sir Richard said: ‘We now have firm evidence that a police officer has lied to bring down a Cabinet minister and a huge injustice has been done.
‘The Met has got a lot to answer for at the moment.
I agree

’And Labour MP Keith Vaz said: ‘This whole unfortunate incident took only 45 seconds – but it has cost the taxpayer hundreds of thousands of pounds, Mr Mitchell his job and damaged the reputation of the police.’
I agree

I do so hope lessons are being learned so that never ever again in the future do we see Metropolitan Police Officers lying or covering up in any investigation whatsoever. Cos now the scales have dropped from a lot more eyes and we have got our high viz, all-seeing, critical distance, police-issue specs on, and they are trained on Scotland Yard. Over and out.

by jeanmonroe 11.01.14 11:13

What's that saying before the real cops move in?

"GO!, GO!, GO!"

Maybe those will be the last words Hyphen-Howe will hear before office his door is battered down!

by Mirage 11.01.14 11:28

jeanmonroe wrote:What's that saying before the real cops move in?

"GO!, GO!, GO!"

Maybe those will be the last words Hyphen-Howe will hear before office his door is battered down!

I reckon they'll send in a soothing couple to check whether he's cowering in a cupboard. Step forward soothing couple! You know who you are.

Scotland Yard’s rotten core: Police failed to address Met's ‘endemic corruption’ - Independent - 10/1/14