Could Maddie be in the garden of Casa Liliana?

by Woofer 14.10.12 15:42

I`ll start with the words from GA`s book :-

EDDIE AND KEELA AT ROBERT MURAT'S HOUSE.

Robert Murat's residence and the adjacent grounds are gone over with a fine-tooth comb in their turn. Mark Harrison, rigorously professional, has planned to devote three days to this job. This seems long to us. We want to limit the duration of this operation to avoid having the media besiege the premises. Mark agrees not to prolong the search any longer than is necessary, and manages to finish it in two days.

PJ, GNR, Civil Defence: dozens of men are mobilised. They have to work their way through the jungle that's invaded the land all round the house - Murat will not recognise his garden any more once the investigators have been through. The ground is examined with radar, centimetre by centimetre, by a specialist from Aveiro university. In vain: the dogs detect nothing. No evidence is found anywhere within the area examined. All the same, the radar reveals that Murat's house is built over an ancient Roman villa.

by Woofer 14.10.12 15:47

How does the theory that Maddie was buried so soon after the published disappearance fit in with the Smith`s seeing a man carrying a child near Kelly`s bar at around 10pm.

by Woofer 14.10.12 15:54

Would it be possible to enter Casa Pia and use the ground radar machine for a few hours without the occupant hearing?

by **tigger** 14.10.12 17:19

Woofer wrote:Would it be possible to enter Casa Pia and use the ground radar machine for a few hours without the occupant hearing?

Most GPR systems are basically a Heath Robinson affair. A box at least around 18 x 18 " - usually larger, suspended between two, three or four wheels.
Basically, you then have to set out a grid and trundle the machine up and down the grid as if you are ploughing. The output will go to the computer and the software which analyses the data.
A hard ground such as is likely to be found there would give good results. But uneven ground slows it down. It would take a few hours at least imo.

I would expect that such equipment was used when the PJ went over Murat's property.

If I were trying to get into someone's property illegally and unobserved, I'd go for a magnetometer, very portable and a little quicker. We used a fluxgate magnetometer once, but I'm sure there are even better ones available now. This would be about the size of a shortish strimmer and much easier to carry. Even so, you'd still need a grid to refer your data to. imo. May be a little out of date, but on the whole that's it.

I've not joined the Birch discussion because it's so patently ridiculous imo - no time for the the corpse to develop cadaver odour. The time frame of that evening and the unlikely fact that the first search missed a fresh grave, the dogs didn't react at all and if they found the remains of a a Roman villa (almost certainly by GPR) they'd have found a grave as well.
If SB has actually surveyed part of that garden, what is showing up on his output is probably the Roman Villa. winkwink

by winjoy 14.10.12 17:40

I do agree that there are a number of reasons why the idea of Madeleine being buried in Casa Liliana doesn't seem possible. Probably more reasons to suppose that she isn't than that she is. All I can say is that if there is a lot we do not know, but which if we did we would understand better, then maybe we will know in time. That said - none of us will probably ever know, either way, since the Portuguese appear to be determined not to dig!

This case has been so frustrating - for so long - that it is hard to believe it will ever be unravelled. I have never wished more that I will be wrong though [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Woofer 14.10.12 17:42

Tigger - re `no time for the corpse to develop cadaver odour` - surely this would depend on what time the corpse died and no one knows that for sure.

by Woofer 14.10.12 17:46

Another things that strikes me is that if the present owners sell (which I`m sure they will at some time) the new occupier will undoubtedly know the history of the house and therefore dig the suggested site.

by winjoy 14.10.12 17:51

Woofer wrote:Another things that strikes me is that if the present
owners sell (which I`m sure they will at some time) the new occupier
will undoubtedly know the history of the house and therefore dig the
suggested site.

Woofer, I am as interested in all this as
you are and hope that it will finally be solved - but I think it will
prove as difficult to sell Casa Liliana as it has proved to be to sell
3A. I feel very sorry for the owners of both properties - to be so
affected by what has happened to Madeleine. So many have suffered and
so few have benefited - mainly just the parents have become celebrity millionaires as far as I can see.

by Liz Eagles 14.10.12 18:20

winjoy wrote:
Woofer wrote:Another things that strikes me is that if the present
owners sell (which I`m sure they will at some time) the new occupier
will undoubtedly know the history of the house and therefore dig the
suggested site.

Woofer, I am as interested in all this as
you are and hope that it will finally be solved - but I think it will
prove as difficult to sell Casa Liliana as it has proved to be to sell
3A. I feel very sorry for the owners of both properties - to be so
affected by what has happened to Madeleine. So many have suffered and
so few have benefited - mainly just the parents have become celebrity millionaires as far as I can see.

I agree winjoy. I'm not sure about the McCanns becoming millionaires though as in all fairness there is no proof of that but 3A and Casa Liliana are both tainted real estate imo which common sense would tell the average buyer to steer clear and choose something else.

by **tigger** 14.10.12 18:40

Woofer wrote:Tigger - re `no time for the corpse to develop cadaver odour` - surely this would depend on what time the corpse died and no one knows that for sure.

I only skimmed through the theory, I thought he said the death was some 90 minutes before burial. But it doesn't matter much imo. The timeline of the evening, the fact that Murat returned on the 1st May, the phone ping analyses - the list of non-matching events is endless.
The dogs, even the GNR dogs should have alerted. Etc. etc.
Doing a GPR survey on your own takes time. Getting the stuff over the wall is awkward.
I think Mr. Birch should consult a psychiatrist.

by bristow 14.10.12 18:40

From Kikoraton

Certain events would fall into place if this were indeed the case. An
explanation could be found for Prof Iain Boland Squire's 12-second call
to Gerry at 1224 on 3 May (it had to be brief, so there was no time for
long expressions of regret). It would also be easier to explain the
plethora of calls made from Casa Liliana on the afternoon of 3 May, up
to 1930. Murat himself didn't make them, and his Ma was never one for
making frequent calls on her house phone or mobile. I've long posted and
tweeted that I believe Gerry spent several hours at Casa Liliana that
afternoon.
It fits, but that's all at present.

I wonder if, as Kikoraton believes that Gerry spent several hours that afternoon at Casa Liliana that he could have been planning in advance a grave at the house so it was ready and waiting? Obviously all IMO.
Here's a link to the thread which does coincide quite nicely with this thread.

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by **tigger** 14.10.12 18:50

bristow wrote:From Kikoraton
Certain events would fall into place if this were indeed the case. An
explanation could be found for Prof Iain Boland Squire's 12-second call
to Gerry at 1224 on 3 May (it had to be brief, so there was no time for
long expressions of regret). It would also be easier to explain the
plethora of calls made from Casa Liliana on the afternoon of 3 May, up
to 1930. Murat himself didn't make them, and his Ma was never one for
making frequent calls on her house phone or mobile. I've long posted and
tweeted that I believe Gerry spent several hours at Casa Liliana that
afternoon.
It fits, but that's all at present.

I wonder if, as Kikoraton believes that Gerry spent several hours that afternoon at Casa Liliana that he could have been planning in advance a grave at the house so it was ready and waiting? Obviously all IMO.
Here's a link to the thread which does coincide quite nicely with this thread.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

It absolutely doesn't explain the EVRD dog alerting to the Renault for a start. It doesn't explain the long phone call between ROB and GM on the 10th June ? when Gerry told the PJ he was elsewhere. The phone call that was linked to the barn where fibres (and I believe some DNA) linked to the Renault were found. Doesn't explain any of that at all.
It's perfectly possible that Gerry made quite a number of phone calls from Casa Liliana, that doesn't mean Maddie was buried there imo. It means he had a safe place to talk and to use a phone not linked to him. Considering how many support systems were ready to go into action within hours of 10.00 pm that evening, I can well imagine that some of these would have to be alerted.
Gerry wanted the GNR dogs to come that evening, he complained that they weren't there. That would have been a very unwise request if he'd just buried or had Maddie buried.

by Woofer 14.10.12 18:59

tigger wrote:
Woofer wrote:Tigger - re `no time for the corpse to develop cadaver odour` - surely this would depend on what time the corpse died and no one knows that for sure.

I only skimmed through the theory, I thought he said the death was some 90 minutes before burial. But it doesn't matter much imo. The timeline of the evening, the fact that Murat returned on the 1st May, the phone ping analyses - the list of non-matching events is endless.
The dogs, even the GNR dogs should have alerted. Etc. etc.
Doing a GPR survey on your own takes time. Getting the stuff over the wall is awkward.
I think Mr. Birch should consult a psychiatrist.

I did read it thoroughly at the time but my problem is I forget. I don`t see how he could know what time she died (unless he has inside info). Anyway I believe 90 mins is enough time for cadaver odour to have built up in another place and even transferred itself to other items, barring the car-key of course, unless it was a second or third hand transfer. Good job we have varying outlooks - because Mr. B seems quite plausible to me, barring a few points - mind you I can be naive and trusting at times, but on the other hand have worked in the field of mental health for many years.

by Zozo 14.10.12 19:11

tigger wrote:
Gerry wanted the GNR dogs to come that evening, he complained that they weren't there. That would have been a very unwise request if he'd just buried or had Maddie buried.

Gerry wanting the GNR dogs IMO doesn't mean necessary to be unwise. In contrary, it could be a good way to mislead the investigation from the start, just using the towel(or any other object) which hadn't had any contact with maddie. Whether she died on 3 of May or before. In addition to that it has been shown there was no items relating to Madeleine find in their flat or a Madeleine DNA.
This could be a very good master plan to direct the investigation into the north instead into the south, which must had disturb the whole investigation on a big scale.

by **tigger** 14.10.12 19:23

Zozo wrote:
tigger wrote:
Gerry wanted the GNR dogs to come that evening, he complained that they weren't there. That would have been a very unwise request if he'd just buried or had Maddie buried.
Gerry wanting the GNR dogs IMO doesn't mean necessary he was genuine. In contrary, it could be a good way to mislead the investigation from the start, just using the towel(or any other object) which hadn't had any contact with maddie. Whether she died on 3 of May or before. In addition to that it has been shown there was no items relating to Madeleine find in their flat or a Madeleine DNA.
This could be a very good master plan to direct the investigation into the north instead of into the south, which must disturb the whole investigation on a big scale.

But the dogs found nothing in any case. They are perfectly capable of finding a buried body. They could follow a trail from a to b. It doesn't matter wether it was on that night or a day later. None of the dogs followed a trail to Casa Liliana. They followed ones at the apartment building.
You've missed my 7.50 post re the subsequent evidence that was collected. How are the findings of the EVRD dogs explained in the Renault? Because there was evidence of a body having defrosted. The evidence in the barn after the 10th June, the clothes found in a bag near the airport?

'A master plan', that theory doesn't convince me, if it was a master plan, it certainly went pear-shaped in no time, seeing that we're still arguing about it now.
Delboy could have done better. imo

by Zozo 14.10.12 20:17

I understand your point tigger. My opinion is that, there was a (pre)plan from the start to mislead the investigation and to discredit the PJ. Regarldless wether that plan was a good one or not.
I think its very important to know and understand first those intentionally misleading, where was directing and why?

by **Nina** 14.10.12 20:24

We are so fixed on the 3rd May. GA says 3rd May but does he really believe that? The times on the 3rd from the statements and Rogs just make it impossible, or at best, very tight for some things to have happened. Bring it all forward by only 24 hours and it is all possible imo with time to spare.

by **tigger** 14.10.12 20:56

Nina wrote:We are so fixed on the 3rd May. GA says 3rd May but does he really believe that? The times on the 3rd from the statements and Rogs just make it impossible, or at best, very tight for some things to have happened. Bring it all forward by only 24 hours and it is all possible imo with time to spare.

Well, I'm for that earlier time certainly. Dr. Roberts has particularly pointed out the big silence about the 2nd of May. Which is skipped over by both the mcCs. But for me that still doesn't make for Birch's theory.
It doesn't do away with all the points I listed above. The Renault, the barn, etc. Murat would have had to be a total idiot to allow the child to be buried on his property. Imo he helped certainly, probably by providing a third party to do the job or temporary job.

Dr. Roberts also points out that the careful wording of the phrase: ....' had no part in the disappearance of our daughter'. (GMcC) meant 'no active part'.
There was no cadaver odour on anything belonging to Gerry.
The scent stays after washing several times, which is why it was still on some of Kate's clothing.

Nina, you've got to get over this crush you've got on the doubtlessly handsome Spanish doctor! Get better! airkiss

by **Nina** 14.10.12 22:09

tigger wrote:
Nina wrote:We are so fixed on the 3rd May. GA says 3rd May but does he really believe that? The times on the 3rd from the statements and Rogs just make it impossible, or at best, very tight for some things to have happened. Bring it all forward by only 24 hours and it is all possible imo with time to spare.

Well, I'm for that earlier time certainly. Dr. Roberts has particularly pointed out the big silence about the 2nd of May. Which is skipped over by both the mcCs. But for me that still doesn't make for Birch's theory.
It doesn't do away with all the points I listed above. The Renault, the barn, etc. Murat would have had to be a total idiot to allow the child to be buried on his property. Imo he helped certainly, probably by providing a third party to do the job or temporary job.

Dr. Roberts also points out that the careful wording of the phrase: ....' had no part in the disappearance of our daughter'. (GMcC) meant 'no active part'.
There was no cadaver odour on anything belonging to Gerry.
The scent stays after washing several times, which is why it was still on some of Kate's clothing.

Nina, you've got to get over this crush you've got on the doubtlessly handsome Spanish doctor! Get better!

I wish Tigger. Handsome doctor and get better.
Ok move forward 24 hours as in Wednesday. The cleaner didn't come on the Thursday the 3rd, there is something somewhere that it would have been only to empty the rubbish and that the McCs did that. So that gives hours for a body to be hidden in the apartment. I have always been drawn to the garden being the site of death, having fallen over the little wall, even GA speaks of children falling like ripe fruit. The next place is on the narrow bit of terrace outside the parents patio door, possibly already in the blue bag, but not sure as I think the third site is behind the settee where the best evidence as in cadaverine and fluid under the tiles were found. And finally the scent was in the area of the wardrobe in the parents room but I think from the bag, not directly her body God bless her. She was removed from behind the settee in the blue bag for disposal but the bag brought back, hence the alert in the corner of the wardrobe, though I think she was washed and prepared for buriel, last offices, and wrapped in a sheet behind the settee.
No links and of course all in my opinion. If candyfloss insists airkiss

I will search for links but was just 'purporting' a theory for discussion.

by **PeterMac** 14.10.12 23:12

tigger wrote:
There was no cadaver odour on anything belonging to Gerry.

There was also a marked absence between picture 1 and picture 2 of the beige trousers on the bed. The "witnesses" both talk about beige trousers.
And the blue tennis bag is missing.
The one in the cupboard in the photo
The one Mitchell said they did not have, and the one that one of the T7 said was "not big enough to hide a . . . tennis racquet in".

by **tigger** 15.10.12 6:25

PeterMac wrote:
tigger wrote:
There was no cadaver odour on anything belonging to Gerry.
There was also a marked absence between picture 1 and picture 2 of the beige trousers on the bed. The "witnesses" both talk about beige trousers.
And the blue tennis bag is missing.
The one in the cupboard in the photo
The one Mitchell said they did not have, and the one that one of the T7 said was "not big enough to hide a . . . tennis racquet in".

Surely the witness statement (JT) re the beige trousers of invisible bundle man can be discounted? That only leaves the Smiths sighting which is entirely in the wrong time and direction for it to be relevant to SB's theory and imo has no relation at all to SB's.

@Nina: if she fell in the flowerbed, why hide the accident? Not likely to have made her bleed and if this had been the case, it would be strange to take her back up to 5a and lay her down behind the sofa. Besides, only the cadaver dog alerted to the flowerbed, so the blood and the blood spray had to come from yet another accident.
Any accident could have been explained away easily. If the T7 were willing to tell bigger lies, surely saying that the McCanns were at the apartment when it happened would be no problem? They could blame OC for not having more safety measures in place, seeing it's a family holiday complex. (e.g. the coping too low, not sufficient childproof gates etc.). Even if a PM had to be avoided at all costs, it would have been simpler to arrange this than a faked abduction.
Imo it's always been about the money.
Abduction, call your influential people, ambassador on the spot within hours, that's a jolly good back-up if you need help.
Faking an abduction was by no means the only way to get out of a tight spot. But all the other ways would barely have raised a ripple in the press.
The Leicester Mercury would have had an article about it warning people to take care.

One possible scenario: accident, death. Phone the top contacts, explain this is a 'national security' issue (as Gordon Brown stated) and within hours the two governments will have agreed a transport of the body of the child back to the UK. Short spin on sad demise of child after falling off balcony/falling on tiled floor/ hurriedly flown to hospital in UK and unfortunately died. End of story.
The reason we're still here is because for reasons of their own, the McCanns didn't want that.

by aiyoyo 15.10.12 6:32

tigger wrote:

I've not joined the Birch discussion because it's so patently ridiculous imo - no time for the the corpse to develop cadaver odour.

If Maddie died earlier, and May3rd checks etc are just charade, then there's amber time for cadaver odour manifestation.
If accounts of the mccanns spending May3rd as family day (a deviation from their norm)is true, then earlier disposal and burial (blue bag and all) is all very possibly during daylight on May3rd. That is where 'freezing H20' inside info. comes in.

Amaral had said the evidence in the car could be from material in contact with the body, not necessarily the physical body was transported in the car.

When you think about it, be it whether she died earlier or whether she died May3rd, there is still 25 days or more lapse from car hire date. Hence, logically it could be deduced the body was not transported , but things in contact with the body had been transported in the hired car, possibly for disposal.

Hypothetically speaking if Gerry is the only disposer of the C, then why do people not credit him with intelligence to bury his clothes with the *you know what?*

While SB's theory does not reconcile with dogs, unless the ground is dug, the underground content will always remain a mystery.
I dont see any harm in the proposed dig if only to prove SB wrong.

by sami 15.10.12 7:29

Aiyoyo, I tend to agree with the theory that it was not a body transported in the boot of the car. For this to happen some +/- 25 days later just feels wrong to me, even for this story. My opinion is that it is likely the blue bag and other bits that were transported for disposal. The bag became significant and important, the PJ were questioning its existance.

When I first read SB's story, my reaction was what a great idea. Bury the body in the one place that had been thoroughly searched and most unlikely ever to be searched again. A good reason for McCann's arrogance, and he has an air of arrogance about him when it comes to talking about finding Madeleine's body. But then I read his opinion on the timings and that discounted that theory. However my biggest doubt of all is the dogs, they did not alert. Why not ?

So either the timings are wrong or the dogs are wrong. I mean no disrepect to SB when I say I believe the dogs.

by Woofer 15.10.12 9:47

sami wrote:Aiyoyo, I tend to agree with the theory that it was not a body transported in the boot of the car. For this to happen some +/- 25 days later just feels wrong to me, even for this story. My opinion is that it is likely the blue bag and other bits that were transported for disposal. The bag became significant and important, the PJ were questioning its existance.

When I first read SB's story, my reaction was what a great idea. Bury the body in the one place that had been thoroughly searched and most unlikely ever to be searched again. A good reason for McCann's arrogance, and he has an air of arrogance about him when it comes to talking about finding Madeleine's body. But then I read his opinion on the timings and that discounted that theory. However my biggest doubt of all is the dogs, they did not alert. Why not ?

So either the timings are wrong or the dogs are wrong. I mean no disrepect to SB when I say I believe the dogs.

I could accept that there was a transfer of cadaver odour to the blue bag and other clothes belonging to KM and a child`s T-shirt but would this odour have been enough to necessitate the car boot being left open for days to air out? Also would cadaver odour transfer to an ignition key? I sometimes wish Martin G would come on here anonymously to explain.

by Stephen Birch 15.10.12 10:24

No matter what theory's there are out there, 4 American and 1 South African expert consulted, confirmed something is buried under the Murat driveway.Whichever way you look at it, the driveway must be dug up.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

by sweetex 15.10.12 11:09

Stephen Birch wrote:No matter what theory's there are out there, 4 American and 1 South African expert consulted, confirmed something is buried under the Murat driveway.Whichever way you look at it, the driveway must be dug up.

Regards

Stephen D. Birch

Mr Birch, the purpose of this section of the forum is to discuss different theories, and this is exactly what we are doing.

I agree with the idea that it was not the body that was transferred in the car, but probably clothes, bags and other bits and pieces close to Madeleine.

Should this be true, and she is buried in Murat's garden, MY question will be, did Murat know, or did he not.

Will any sane person allow another to bury his dead child in his garden? If he didn't know? Why does he not request police to start digging?

by Stephen Birch 15.10.12 11:17

His attorney refused me access....

by Stephen Birch 15.10.12 11:18

Mr Murat has a steel plate in his head and one blind eye.

by Guest 15.10.12 11:32

Stephen Birch wrote:Mr Murat has a steel plate in his head and one blind eye.

And.............?????

In other words, what relevance is this?

by **PeterMac** 15.10.12 11:38

The question is not whether it might have happened, or whether this theory fits with that theory, or whether the bag might have been moved, or anything else. . .
The question is a matter of hard primary evidential fact.
Is the body under the drive, or not ?