McCanns Hire Car Contract

Interesting - taken from police interviews : [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

External diligence carried out on places visited in Lagos by Robert Murat 2007.05.15
Officers: Carlos L. and Joao F., Inspectors.

Today, as ordered, we went to the city of Lagos to determine the various residences used an/or owned by R.Murat or his family members.
--- Having gone to Elras Velhas behind the Celero restaurant, next to the EN125, in Almadena, it was possible to speak with a resident of the area having land next to Elras Velhas, who affirmed knowing Murat very well, having given him exclusive rights to sell some land when he worked for the Remax estate agency, and that his [RM's] mother had sold her Elras Velhas property long ago, not knowing exactly how long ago but he was sure it will have been during RM's divorce.
--- Visually checking the mail boxes outside the property the names of R.P.Harris and R.Elliot were noted.
--- At the address of Urb. Chesgal ... in Lagos it was possible to determine from the owner of the ground floor apartment that the referred apartment had been acquired by an individual named Miguel about 10 (ten) years ago, she also having stated that she remembers that the first owner had been a foreign female not knowing her nor remembering her name.
--- At Rua do Jogo da Bola - Lagos, it was not possible to locate the "Bora" café or any other commercial establishment. That café was then found on Rua Conselheiro Joaquim Machado in Lagos, the proprietor of which, in conversation, stated that he did not know R.M. nor had he ever seen him frequent his establishment.
--- With the intention of location Quinta do Sto. Phunurius, it was possible to verify that it was in Rua D. Joao III in Ameijeira - Lagos, and in conversation with several residents it was possible to determine that it was a Quinta [farm estate] owned by an English citizen and managed by a North American man who lives at Travessa do Forno in Lagos, the people also having stated that the Quinta is used for "parties" of a sexual nature.
--- It was not possible, however, to determine if R.M. currently frequented that Quinta.


When RM is re-interviewed he makes some amendments to his activities on 3rd May:


---- He states that about 19:30 he left the home of Michaela alone and went directly to his house. He took the same route the day before and is absolutely certain that he did not stop anywhere.
---- For the rest of what he said about this day during the 1st interrogation he maintains all its content. He adds, however, that in the meantime he consulted on the Internet his mobile phone billing and found that on that night he made two calls which he had not remembered having made. At 23:39 to the number of Sergey Malinca and another at 23:40 to the number of Michaela.

HelenMeg wrote:The PJ believed the car had transported a dead body (of Madeleine).

Respectfully snipped for space.
i was pondering on this thinking why did the PJ thought about "body" and not maybe the blue bag or something just used for disposal that may have leaked the fluids but then I remember Amaral saying they recovered a substantial amount of hairs (that fortunately some survived FSS in the PJ storage) so yeah... makes sense. still that Clarence speech is priceless,in a horrible way of course.

ETA: I realize this topic is about the car contract so please mods if there's any better topic for us to have this conversation please move and let us know? tyia

j.rob wrote:Snipped from post above with my bolded parts and alterations as to a possible theory/



-------


"It is ridiculous reasonable to suggest that Madeleine's blood was in the their car because she was never in it.



"It was hired more than 20 days after she went missing, at a time when they needed it to transport a dead body which means it was impossible for her to have ever been Madeleine was in it.
"Kate and Gerry were in no way involved in her death. Nor were they (were) involved in disposing of her body.
...
"Anything the police feel may give them cause for concern cannot be wholly and innocently explained.
"But until we actually see the official FSS report, we have no an idea what it contains, and I suggest the Portuguese press don't either  too."

Brilliant choice of words Clarence... (and also very good divination powers, "predicting" the definitive FSS report would be...far from conclusive...)


-------


Priceless. Thanks for confirming what everyone suspected, including the Portuguese police, Clarence!


A theory, as always. I would like to be wrong as I think Madeleine deserved a lot better.

Excellent and probably spot on!

HelenMeg wrote:The PJ believed the car had transported a dead body (of Madeleine). Their subsequent interviews of those who had previoulsy hired the car asked relevant questions such as had they transported dead / injured people etc. Eddi / Keela alerted to the car. Its a more than reasonable deduction to believe that the body was transported in the car (or at least items that had been in close contact with a dead body). The only question is when and where. We know they hired the car a few weeks later and we assume it was during that period. However, I believe they may have had use of the car prior to that. They had so much help from various sources that it is not unreasonable to think that the car hire records may have been altered to conceal this. IMO.

The other thing that stands out for me is when RM hired a car for them - or so that he could give them his.  We only know about that because they wanted us to know about that. If they wanted us to know about that  then it was for a reason - to cover something. So I shall now look into that... why did RM have to get them a car.. its almost as if that was put out into the public domain so that we think they did not know who to go to or how to hire a car. Like the Church episode - Gerry asks where the Church is to give the impression he didn't already know..  Everything for a reason..

Given the dog alerts and the McCann excuses which are risible, imo, plus the neighbour noticing the open boot, it seems reasonable to suppose that the vehicle was used to carry (Madeleine's) a dead body.  As you say, they could have had use of the car prior to the end of May when they report that the car was hired. The fact that Kate emphasizes that the car was hired three weeks after the alleged abduction - which would make it too long a time frame for it to have been used to move a body I think is her argument - suggests that this is a sensitive area. And Kate wishes to play around with semantics in order to deceive, as she so often does, imo. As outlined beautifully by Dr Roberts.

Murat's contacts may have been very useful in such aspects as hiring or using cars. Would be interesting to look more closely at the car hire firm and paperwork associated with the McCann's hiring of this car.

If this car was used to dispose of a body, it does seem a little odd that the Mc's would use a car that can so easily be traced to them, perhaps? 

But perhaps they have always been 'hiding in plain sight' as it were.

With regard to Robert Murat and TM wanting people to know that he had hired a car for them, several reasons for their flagging up this occur to me. One is that they want Murat firmly in the frame. As you say, why would he need to get involved in this? The other is that maybe the McCanns had wanted Murat or an associate to remove a body in a vehicle not associated with TM. But that Murat/associate had refused. 

Or Murat became aware of what had really happened that week - after all he was privy to vital early eye-witness accounts - and wanted to dissociate himself, not wanting to be incriminated in what he came to realize was a serious crime.

The fact that he was made 'arguido' and several members of TM pointed the finger at him, plus a British journalist - suggests to me that he had become privy to highly sensitive information. And people wanted to shut him up. Plus he was a convenient patsy, of course, for which he was handsomely rewarded.

Yes,  was just thinking about the point you make regarding Mc Canns hiring same car that they may have previously transported  the body in.. why would they do that?  Good question.  I cant think why.
Also they have the boot open to let the smell out - so perhaps the theory of them using it during the holiday week (28th April - 4th May) is not a reasonable theory after all.  Other peope had hired the car between 4th May and when the MC Canns hired it later in May.  The smell problem would have perhaps gone.

It seemed to be a popular car - in that golfers from Leicester had previously hired it - I have a feeling it was popular with the english - I know it was fairly new. Then again, I guess all the cars would have been popular in the touristy area with frequent golfing trips going on.

But I now wonder why the PJ got it checked out by the dogs..... something must have made them do that - what prompted the police to get the car checked out - bearing in mind the Mc Canns supposedly hired it weeks after M went missing. Why get the car checked for smells by a cadaver / blood dog? Something indicated to the police...

As regards moving the body, my theory is that the TM handlers insisted that this must be moved for a safe place before they moved onwards to that ultimately totally secure resting place. The handlers would want TM to take the entire risk in Portugal, if caught there everyone could stand back & let TM take the entire can without any risk of others being embroiled since it would have been a watertight, red-handed cop.

Once in the safe place (again my theory remains that this would be Spain) the handlers could and did arrange everything else as this was TM's reward for taking that huge initial risk. All my own theory of course.

Rogue-a-Tory wrote:As regards moving the body, my theory is that the TM handlers insisted that this must be moved for a safe place before they moved onwards to that ultimately totally secure resting place. The handlers would want TM to take the entire risk in Portugal, if caught there everyone could stand back & let TM take the entire can without any risk of others being embroiled since it would have been a watertight, red-handed cop.

Once in the safe place (again my theory remains that this would be Spain) the handlers could and did arrange everything else as this was TM's reward for taking that huge initial risk. All my own theory of course.

Well that certainly sounds plausible and I do agree that there were 'handlers' directing things..why Spain though?  They were in the midst of plenty of rugged land - why the risk of going across borders etc..?

Zavial Beach (Past Budens, half way to Sagres)
 
Did anything ever come from the Muchacho ‘sighting’ of both the Mc’s and also (according to the son) the ‘regulars’ (T7) at Zavial Beach (17.8kms from PdL) or was it dismissed as a false sighting?

They would certainly have needed transport to get there, as would the rest of the party, although quite how ‘regular’ the rest of the T9 could have been in the few days they were over there must be somewhat debatable.
 
From Pamalam:
 
‘The files reveal that on May 9 last year six days after Madeleine disappeared officers interviewed Ernesto Mochacho (Muchacho?), owner of a restaurant on Zavial beach, a 20-minute drive from Praia da Luz, which has a naturist area.


Mr Muchacho recalled seeing the McCann's with their three children for the last time at his restaurant in April.
 
Ivo Muchacho, 23, told The Sunday Telegraph. He said police visited the restaurant just after Madeleine vanished.

Mr Muchacho (the son?) said members of the "Tapas Nine" the group of friends dining with Kate and Gerry McCann on the night Madeleine went missing were regulars at the restaurant, which has a terrace looking out across the Mediterranean. "They came a lot but I only saw the McCann family here once," he said.’

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The actual statement of Ernesto Joachim Muchacho in McCannfiles makes no reference of the T9, this seems to only come from the sons statement to the Telegraph.

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HelenMeg wrote:Yes,  was just thinking about the point you make regarding Mc Canns hiring same car that they may have previously transported  the body in.. why would they do that?  Good question.  I cant think why.
Also they have the boot open to let the smell out - so perhaps the theory of them using it during the holiday week (28th April - 4th May) is not a reasonable theory after all.  Other peope had hired the car between 4th May and when the MC Canns hired it later in May.  The smell problem would have perhaps gone.

It seemed to be a popular car - in that golfers from Leicester had previously hired it - I have a feeling it was popular with the english - I know it was fairly new. Then again, I guess all the cars would have been popular in the touristy area with frequent golfing trips going on.

But I now wonder why the PJ got it checked out by the dogs..... something must have made them do that - what prompted the police to get the car checked out - bearing in mind the Mc Canns supposedly hired it weeks after M went missing. Why get the car checked for smells by a cadaver / blood dog? Something indicated to the police...

Again, it is possible that they hadn't hired or used to car prior to the end of May. Madeleine's body was placed into cold storage during that fateful week, or shortly after the alleged 'abduction' . Once the dust had settled, so so speak, and TM thought they had got away with the abduction story plus 'sightings' all over the world, TM then arranged for the body to be moved to another more final resting place.

Amaral's theory was, I think, that there were indications from the car that a body had been placed in cold storage. So this would tie in with that theory. And if, as I suspect, TM considered the sayings of final goodbyes and a funeral of sorts to be important, then this would take some time to plan and arrange. Three weeks in this context is not that long a time when trying to organize a funeral (which I really do believe they would have done as they put so much emphasis on appearances and rituals.)

The police I presume in cases like this would always be exploring how and when a body had been disposed of. Maybe they had their suspicions that TM did not dispose of the body in the first few days/weeks. And when TM hired a car - supposedly three weeks later - this would most definitely have aroused interest. Add to this a neighbour having reported the boot being left open day and night (assuming this is true) and then it would be quite logical to suspect that the car might be used for the removal of a body (kept in cold storage or in a morgue or other place where it would not decompose) towards a final resting place.

This is, after all, pretty much what happens if a person dies in non-suspicious circumstances. The body is placed in a morgue until the funeral. In the UK, at any rate, it is not unusual for several weeks to pass before the funeral takes place. 

Strikes me that the Portuguese police were always ahead of TM. Didn't believe them from the word go. But were hampered by the high levels of protection offered to TM.

HelenMeg wrote:

Rogue-a-Tory wrote:As regards moving the body, my theory is that the TM handlers insisted that this must be moved for a safe place before they moved onwards to that ultimately totally secure resting place. The handlers would want TM to take the entire risk in Portugal, if caught there everyone could stand back & let TM take the entire can without any risk of others being embroiled since it would have been a watertight, red-handed cop.

Once in the safe place (again my theory remains that this would be Spain) the handlers could and did arrange everything else as this was TM's reward for taking that huge initial risk. All my own theory of course.

Well that certainly sounds plausible and I do agree that there were 'handlers' directing things..why Spain though?  They were in the midst of plenty of rugged land - why the risk of going across borders etc..?

Borders are open you cross and you don't even realize you did...(and no I don't believe they took the body to Spain) bu anyway what we know:
-GA said the fluids found in the car were consistent with a body that has been frozen (IIRC because the fluids were mixed with water)
-Hairs consistent with Madeleine's profile were also found in the same place in the boot of the scenic,
-Gerry said - find the body and prove we killed her"
-There was a "recent" comment from "not confirmed" from Luis Arriaga, a well known Portuguese figure and also GA friend about a crematorium in Ferreira do Alentejo. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

From all the above points my conclusion is, there's no body left , nothing left to be found. MOO

Ayniia wrote:
-There was a "recent" comment from "not confirmed" from Luis Arriaga, a well known Portuguese figure and also GA friend about a crematorium in Ferreira do Alentejo.  https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7747-ferreira-do-alentejo?highlight=ferreira+alentejo

From all the above points my conclusion is, there's no body left , nothing left to be found. MOO

I thought Luis Arriaga was considered a bit... unreliable?

There was talk again recently about the Barragem da Bravura. Personally I think that's as likely a spot as any. There was a cursory search done there but it was called off due to the arrival of the mysterious Amsterdam tip off, IIRC.

Of course the charade around Marcos Aragao Correia and the Arade dam probably introduces enough confusion into the mix to make casual observers think that the Algarve reservoirs have been extensively searched already.

Clay Regazzoni wrote:

Ayniia wrote:
-There was a "recent" comment from "not confirmed" from Luis Arriaga, a well known Portuguese figure and also GA friend about a crematorium in Ferreira do Alentejo.  https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t7747-ferreira-do-alentejo?highlight=ferreira+alentejo

From all the above points my conclusion is, there's no body left , nothing left to be found. MOO

I thought Luis Arriaga was considered a bit... unreliable?

There was talk again recently about the Barragem da Bravura. Personally I think that's as likely a spot as any. There was a cursory search done there but it was called off due to the arrival of the mysterious Amsterdam tip off, IIRC.

Of course the charade around Marcos Aragao Correia and the Arade dam probably introduces enough confusion into the mix to make casual observers think that the Algarve reservoirs have been extensively searched already.

Why you say that?! He used to be the spokesperson for "Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral"  http://pjga.blogspot.pt/
But of course there's no way to prove he was the one posting those comments online.
ETA sorry for the off topic

Ayniia wrote:

Why you say that?! He used to be the spokesperson for "Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral"  http://pjga.blogspot.pt/
But of course there's no way to prove he was the one posting those comments online.
ETA sorry for the off topic

No worries Ayniia - it was just something that I had in my head. I could be thinking of completely the wrong person - it wouldn't be the first time!

Clay Regazzoni wrote:

Ayniia wrote:

Why you say that?! He used to be the spokesperson for "Projecto Justiça Gonçalo Amaral"  http://pjga.blogspot.pt/
But of course there's no way to prove he was the one posting those comments online.
ETA sorry for the off topic

No worries Ayniia - it was just something that I had in my head. I could be thinking of completely the wrong person - it wouldn't be the first time!

Well with or without his comment, Gerry saying: find the body and prove we killed her , is all I need to know that unfortunately there isn't one anymore.
But that it did and was in that boot,no doubt. Sufficient time to make such a smell that the boot had to be left open day and night . I'm having a deja vu of Casey Anthony car boot

I read a comment from a DM reader today (on a different subject) which struck a chord.

'It's not just who you know. It's not just what you know. It's what you know about who you know.'

This about sums up my impression of what is going on.

If Detective Amaral's claim that the Mcs hid Madeleine in a coffin in Luz church a month after she disappeared is correct, then that would line up with his theory that Madeleine's body was put into cold storage for several weeks (prior to being carried in the Scenic hire car - the cadaver dog alerts). Bodily fluids in the Scenic hire car consistent with a body having been put into cold storage, I do believe.

If the Mcs hired the  Scenic exactly three weeks after Madeleine's alleged abduction then that would be 24th May 2007. And if Amaral is correct on the timing of Madeleine being placed in a coffin in the Luz church  one month after her disappearance. That would be 3rd June 2007. 

So that would make the period of time between 24th May 2007 - hiring the Scenic - and 3rd June 2007 - placing Madeleine in a coffin - extremely significant. Especially the day/s leading up to 3rd June. 

I have always been curious about the two men driving all the way from Scotland to Luz in a van with an inflatable bill-board. Gerry mentions this in his diary on 28th May 2007 as this event had apparently already had press coverage. It seems extraordinary that the Mcs could not have had billboards done locally or carried as air freight, for instance. Why did a van need to come out to Luz around these dates?

 I wonder what else was in that van? If Amaral's claim is correct, and Madeleine was placed in a coffin on 3rd June, then one has to consider the kind of preparations that would need to take place to prepare a body  for a funeral. 

Perhaps some other 'essentials' - much more essential than an inflatable billboard - were carried out in that van?

If the funeral took place at the church in Luz on 3rd June,  does that mean that it was conducted by Kate and Gerry's chum Father Seddon? I would be fascinated to know the answer to this. Then the coffin containing the woman (and Madeleine?) would have been taken to the crematorium on the same day I presume?

 I wonder who the woman was who was being cremated that day? That must be on public record, surely.

Isn't it a strange coincidence that the  crematorium in the region had been closed for a month prior to this date for maintenance, so that must mean there was a backlog of bodies, surely? Or other crematoriums were used during this period. And I wonder where the ashes from this woman (and Madeleine's?   )  went?

A look at what is on record for what else the Mcs were supposed to have been up to around these possibly 'key' dates?

Kate in her book records:
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"Saturday 2 June. It wasn't unusual for investigative or campaign issues to eat into our family days, and this was one of those occasions. Before we took the children out to Praia da Rocha beach, Gerry needed to catch up with the emails that had accumulated while we'd been in Madrid and I had a letter I wanted to write to J.K Rowling......"

--------

 After writing to J.K Rowling Kate records: "It wasn't enough to prevent me from sliding down the slippery slope for the rest of the day." Then she includes an excerpt from her diary:
--------

"Crying in bed again - can't help it......the thought of Madeleine's fear and pain tears me apart........"
----------

(Kate then goes on to write about how paedophiles should be 'kept' in a 'secure location of some description.' A very, very strange passage which I think probably indicates that Kate knows that what happened to Madeleine is connected with paedophiles but, because, imo, Kate knows who they are, she is conflicted so is extraordinarily benevolent towards them. But this is a subject for another thread...)

Kate's account of events of Saturday 2nd June in her book - obviously written much later than the diary as the book was not published until 2011 - is quite different to her diary account. The passage of time has lead to an amazingly selective memory and some convenient air-brushing,  imo. To the extent that the whole afternoon has been airbrushed out of the book. An afternoon at the beach with the family during which Kate, in her diary,  records she had never felt so relaxed.

Note, Kate fails to include the vital phrase: "never felt so relaxed since Madeleine was taken." So, the implication is that  Kate had never (in her whole life) felt so relaxed.

Amazing! Her daughter has been abducted by paedophiles and held in a hellish liar and on the eve of the month 'anniversary' of Madeleine's alleged abduction, Kate is more relaxed that she has ever been in her whole life. 

Why would that be, I wonder? What was happening or about to happen over that weekend?

Hmmmm - I can understand why the ghost-writers/publishers felt it was necessary to air-brush Kate's euphoric Saturday 2nd June afternoon at the beach out of the book. 

What is even more intriguing is how Kate starts her diary entry for Saturday:
-----
"SATURDAY, JUNE 2: I can't remember today (which is now yesterday!)."
-------
So this tells us that Kate wrote the Saturday diary entry on Sunday 3rd June, or so she claims. But despite claiming that by Sunday when she supposedly wrote the entry she cannot remember what happened (on the Saturday, allegedly) Kate then goes on to give a fairly detailed account of exactly what she and the family did that Saturday. 

------

"The morning was spent doing paperwork. I wrote a letter to JK Rowling, asking for her help in keeping M in the public eye............"

An enjoyable afternoon—I never felt so relaxed. I felt it was wrong. S and A had fun and that was important. I also worried about what people might think, like "How can they manage to...?"
It seems that Sean is liking the beach more these days. We had tea in a nearby restaurant—good, despite still thinking that I had to do normal things without feeling guilty. We left around 7.30pm and the kids were completely exhausted.
Fed up again —poor M. Once again it took a long time before S and A were sorted. Finally went to church for 10 minutes.
Private worship (despairing!).
--------


So Kate's  claim that she cannot remember Saturday 2nd June and her diary account of the Saturday completely contradict each other.

I would suggest that the day  Kate cannot remember, or chooses not to remember, is Sunday 3rd June. 

In her book, Kate writes nothing about the daytime events of Sunday 3rd June. However, she recounts a conversation that she and Gerry had that evening when it was dark and they were quietly working on their computers in which: "We acknowledged the possibility that Madeleine might no longer be alive.....Would we ever be able to return to our home, the home we had all shared with her? Maybe we should move else-where. Where?............For me the honest exposure of this buried poison was like lancing a boil. Admitting these secret fears and concerns......and sharing them with the only other person who was persecuted in the same way, made the suddenly a little easier to understand and to manage. Strengthened and comforted, I fell asleep that night more peacefully than I had in many days."


Seems like something cathartic happened that weekend. Which, if Amaral's claim is true, would be Madeleine being laid to rest finally. imo.

Gerry's blog entries for 2nd and 3rd June may also provide some clues.

Gerry does mention the beach visit for 2nd June and it appears that, according to Gerry, some of the wider family were there too. He mentions something about managing to get a bit to eat which suggests to me that Saturday was a very busy day for him and there was scarcely time to eat. Gerry's entry for Sunday 3rd June records that Chris and Les, who had driven out from Scotland to Luz with a van containing an inflatable billboard, were returning home that day. Guess they had brought out what had been needed and the job was now done, so to speak.

Hmmmm. Theorizing as always.


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Thanks for providing the references -

I read from one of them that Amaral

'suggested the McCanns hid Madeleine's body in the woman's coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.'

I wonder what gave him grounds for this suggestion..to be so precise about timing.

I too find the whole 'van driving from Scotland with billboard' absurd - and more than likely a means of transporting something to help the Mc Canns. There had to be some devious reason for that escapade.

You could be right with your theory.. certainly Amaral would not be suggesting the body was hidden in a coffin for no reason..

I do think you are right too with there being a significant reason for their improved state of mind. No matter who they are and what they are capable of I do believe that Kate would have wanted her daughter laid to rest in some way. I also believe this would have been of some comfort and that she could not help but relay this somehow in her diary entries.  The truth often slips out...

HelenMeg wrote:Thanks for providing the references -

I read from one of them that Amaral

'suggested the McCanns hid Madeleine's body in the woman's coffin at Praia da Luz catholic church – which they had a key for – a month after she vanished in 2007.'

I wonder what gave him grounds for this suggestion..to be so precise about timing.

I too find the whole 'van driving from Scotland with billboard' absurd - and more than likely a means of transporting something to help the Mc Canns. There had to be some devious reason for that escapade.

You could be right with your theory.. certainly Amaral would not be suggesting the body was hidden in a coffin for no reason..

 
I suppose it would be pretty easy to put people under surveillance. And as the Portuguese did not believe TM's version of events, then they would have quite a high index of suspicion in terms of all the comings and goings.

When a child disappears in suspicious circumstances, the family, close friends and last people who saw the child are often involved. 

And the mysterious 'disappearance' of a child where family and friends insist that it was an abduction makes it all the more suspicious. Why be so insistent that it was an abduction by a stranger?

And, as  - sadly -  when children disappear suspiciously they are quite often found dead - especially as time goes on - then I imagine the Portuguese police would have been watching TM closely to see what they were up to following the alleged 'abduction'. With a high index of suspicion that a body was being concealed prior to final disposal. 

Gerry certainly had some interesting bedside reading, as noted by Portuguese police.

"Find the body and prove we killed her" - Gerry McCann.

Yes, hopefully the PJ have a lot more information than was released.

Whilst the Mc Canns  are despicable if they have covered up the death of their daughter, they are still human and I still expect human reactions and behaviour in everything they do.

HelenMeg wrote:I do think you are right too with there being a significant reason for their improved state of mind. No matter who they are and what they are capable of I do believe that Kate would have wanted her daughter laid to rest in some way. I also believe this would have been of some comfort and that she could not help but relay this somehow in her diary entries.  The truth often slips out...

I think that their somewhat warped mind-sets would place an emphasis on 'being laid to rest' whereas they should have placed a much bigger emphasis on Madeleine being protected from harm. And thus remaining alive, happy and healthy. 

Having failed to do that, I presume they tried to make themselves feel better by at least 'doing the proper thing' and making sure there was a final goodbye and resting place.

Again, this is all about them. Nothing to do with Madeleine at all. Who deserved to stay alive and enjoy a happy childhood and become an adult. Her life was taken away from her by someone/several people. And this can hardly be compensated for by a 'fitting' goodbye which will not benefit her in the slightest.

Just about appeasing the consciences of those who failed to ensure this child's safety. 

I find the Mcs phony religious 'convictions' about as creepy as their saintly chum, Father Seddon. Who, I suspect, arrived on the scene with some specific jobs to perform. 

Creepy, I find them all repulsive.

Yes - any parent capable of hiding and covering up a child's death and not allowing that child to have 
their death acknowledged in public -  to save their own ends is despicable.
The friends that surrounded them are as bad. Any one of them could have told the truth.

However, I'm still confident that the 'truth will out'. Until it does there's no rest for anyone

I have never lost a child, but my daughter has (my grandson). My daughter said that a mother would want the child close to either herself or a family member, somewhere where she could visit.

G-Unit wrote:I have never lost a child, but my daughter has (my grandson). My daughter said that a mother would want the child close to either herself or a family member, somewhere where she could visit.

Yes - and Father Seddon - (edited - that should read Hubbard) in an interview stated that Kate liked to return to Luz as that was the last place she saw Madeleine. I suspect it was the last time she saw Madeleine alive, as well as the first/last time she saw Madeleine dead. 

If Amaral is correct in his coffin theory, then Madeleine's 'funeral' could have taken place at the Catholic church in Luz. A place where the McCanns often sought refuge and to which, perhaps vitally, they had they key. With the cremation taking place at the region's crematorium.

Father Seddon (again I meant Hubbard) strikes me as heavily invested in this possible scenario. To the extent that I wonder whether he was involved in a particular service. In at least one interview with him, his words and body language are highly suggestive of deception. To the extent that he knows what happened and played an important role, imo.

Just to add: Father Seddon I think is also an interesting character. He visited Luz in May after the 'abduction'. He took a service with the Catholic priest in mid-May at the Luz church, I do believe. 

Plus, on 3rd June 2007 he held an hour long service at the church where he used to work in Fazerley, I think.

Father Seddon married Kate and Gerry and baptized Madeleine and is a very close friend of the McCann family.

(Details about the priests on the link in a post below.)

Taken from his April 08 statement in MCCANNFILES
I am the person referred to above and I am a Priest of the Roman Catholic Church, a position that I have held for more than 20 years. During the past 18 months I have exercised my functions as a priest in three parishes in the Manchester area and previously I spent sixteen years as a priest in Liverpool. I have known Kate and Gerry McCann for over 10 years. I met them as a couple at the wedding of my friends Mark and Linda, which I presided over at Easter 1997 in Liverpool. Kate had been invited to the ceremony as Lindas childhood friend and Gerry accompanied her. I remember that after the ceremony I got to know Kate and Gerry seriously for the first time, although I had perhaps already met Kate for short moments on previous occasions as Lindas friend. During the reception I particularly remember Gerry because of the fact that he was wearing a kilt, which gave him an extrovert air and meant that he did not go unnoticed. I also discovered that we shared an enthusiastic interest for golf and we spent a lot of time talking about this. Since then, Kate, Gerry and I became good friends and they continue to be part of the social circle today.

In 1998 I carried out Kate and Gerrys wedding ceremony, again in Liverpool. At that time I already knew Kate and Gerry quite well and had played many golf matches with Gerry. I remember that they gave me a set of golf clubs from St Andrews as a present for carrying out the ceremony. I also baptised their first child, Madeleine, but more than being a priest, I consider myself above all to be their friend.

During the last ten years our friendship has been constant and i have always kept in regular contact wherever they have been. I travelled to Amsterdam to visit them when Gerry was working there, and we see each other at least three or four times a year. I have spent other holiday periods with them including one occasion in Stratford upon Avon after the birth of the twins. During the time they were in Amsterdam I was very ill and was forced to spend six or seven weeks without working. Kate and Gerry gave me much support and phoned me regularly. I ended up becoming a very good friend of the whole family.

By his own admission he is really good friends with them...'part of the social circle'..

Perhaps of interest with regard to timings, Gerry in his blog states that Sean has developed a taste for sea-bass on 8th June 2007. Given that Amaral's theory states that Madeleine's body was hidden in  coffin on 3rd June 2007, I presume that, following 'the final goodbyes and disposal' Gerry's mind then turns to the scent that might be emanating from the hire Scenic. And perhaps forestalling the possibility of sniffer dogs being deployed to follow scents.

Which is, presumably, also why a neighbour spotted the Scenic car-boot open day and night (after the McCann's arrival at their hire villa) and why TM then claimed that raw meat carried in the car had left traces of blood. And dirty nappies had caused a stench in the car. 

One thing that strikes me is that the McCann's arrival at their hire villa was not until early July - a month after the date which Detective Amaral suggests is the day that Madeleine's body was placed in a coffin at the church in Luz. So is the odour of cadaver so strong and lingering that it would continue to cause a stench over a month after the car may have been used to carry a dead body? That's a very long time. If the McCanns had been using the car regularly from 3rd June surely the smell in the car during the month of June would have been unbearable? If, even by July, it was necessary to leave the boot open day and night? If the twins and/or other people had traveled in the car, surely they would have been repulsed by the smell?


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HelenMeg wrote:Taken from his April 08 statement in MCCANNFILES
I am the person referred to above and I am a Priest of the Roman Catholic Church, a position that I have held for more than 20 years. During the past 18 months I have exercised my functions as a priest in three parishes in the Manchester area and previously I spent sixteen years as a priest in Liverpool. I have known Kate and Gerry McCann for over 10 years. I met them as a couple at the wedding of my friends Mark and Linda, which I presided over at Easter 1997 in Liverpool. Kate had been invited to the ceremony as Lindas childhood friend and Gerry accompanied her. I remember that after the ceremony I got to know Kate and Gerry seriously for the first time, although I had perhaps already met Kate for short moments on previous occasions as Lindas friend. During the reception I particularly remember Gerry because of the fact that he was wearing a kilt, which gave him an extrovert air and meant that he did not go unnoticed. I also discovered that we shared an enthusiastic interest for golf and we spent a lot of time talking about this. Since then, Kate, Gerry and I became good friends and they continue to be part of the social circle today.

In 1998 I carried out Kate and Gerrys wedding ceremony, again in Liverpool. At that time I already knew Kate and Gerry quite well and had played many golf matches with Gerry. I remember that they gave me a set of golf clubs from St Andrews as a present for carrying out the ceremony. I also baptised their first child, Madeleine, but more than being a priest, I consider myself above all to be their friend.

During the last ten years our friendship has been constant and i have always kept in regular contact wherever they have been. I travelled to Amsterdam to visit them when Gerry was working there, and we see each other at least three or four times a year. I have spent other holiday periods with them including one occasion in Stratford upon Avon after the birth of the twins. During the time they were in Amsterdam I was very ill and was forced to spend six or seven weeks without working. Kate and Gerry gave me much support and phoned me regularly. I ended up becoming a very good friend of the whole family.

Thank you for this. I have bolded parts I think might be significant. But I have just realized that I have muddled up Father Seddon and Father Hubbard. I have no idea what Father Seddon is like (although the photo in the link below might possibly provide clues). 

Whereas Father Hubbard - who has been interviewed quite a bit - comes over as deceptive and oily. In the post up-thread I meant to suggest that it could have been Father Hubbard who was involved in some kind of service for Madeleine on 3rd June. In relation to Detective Amaral's theory that Madeleine was hidden in a coffin then at the Luz church. As Hubbard, since 6th May 2007 I think, was Anglican priest at the church.

Another of those amazing coincidences that the Hubbards arrived from Canada to Luz just three days after Madeleine's alleged abduction!

As seen from above, Father Seddon is an old family friend who married the McCanns and baptized Madeleine. He flew out to support the McCanns following Madeleine's disappearance. While in Portugal in mid-May 2007, Father Seddon celebrated mass at Nossa Senhora da Luz church with local priest Father Jose Manuel Pacheco. On June 3, 2007 he led an hour-long prayer vigil at the Holy Name RC Church in Fazakerly where he was formerly the Parish priest. Father Seddon is a member of the clergy at Our Lady of Compassion RC church in Formby near Liverpool.

Wonder if the Hubbards and Seddon knew each other?

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I thought you may have mixed them up. I find Hubbard seems dodgy and oily.. but I'd never taken much notice of Seddon before..

HelenMeg wrote:The article below describes how Murat hired a car 'in a hurry'

He had time to inform the police of his intentions:

"Stated that he intended to rent a car as his car was being used for reasons he did not specify"

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