Did they ever go to Sagres?

by **Tony Bennett** 22.10.10 19:17

Angelique wrote:The buggy really bugs me - at one point this was the excuse why they didn't go the the Millenium Restaurant and stayed on site and ate at the Tapas Restaurant. G/K said it was too far for the children to walk and they had no buggy. So where did the buggy come from to go to Sagres?

But, Angelique, we have not yet established that this 'sighting' of the McCanns-with-buggy in Sagres is genuine.

I wonder if in fact they decided they were going to spend all of the time in and around the Ocean Club and the beach, therefore they would have left behond the twin buggy they no doubt had in Rothley. Unless they decided to put their double buggy in the luggage hold. They probably reckoned that Madeleine would walk the short distances in Praia da Luz and that each of them could carry one twin around. The visit to Sagres seems unaccountable and of course the McCanns said nothing about visiting Sagres.

Amongst the more pertinent questions for that day are whether they really did agonise, as claimed, as to whether or not to go to the Tapas bar (Dr G McCann: "We nearly didn't go...") and whether they really did thaink seriously about providing extra monitoring for Madeleine and the twins in the light of two of them having, so they claim, having woken up the night before.

Of course these particular questions are redundant if indeed Madeleine was already dead and all the stuff about the two children crying the night before was fabrication.

by Guest 22.10.10 19:22

What I don't understand is why there wasn't a lot more intense questioning of who did what on the days leading up to the disappearance. The creche records are impossible to understand, and their rogatory statements give very little detail as to where they were and what they did each day, and did they tally with the creche records. A glaring example is the creche record for April 30th where Madeleine was signed out just 15 minutes after she was signed in. Why didn't the PJ press them on this, why did they not find a reason for why Madeleine stayed for only 15minutes. It could have been something very important and pertinent to the enquiry. Was she ill, were they going somewhere i.e Sagres. Something must have happened for them to sign her out again so quickly imo, else why bother taking her for only 15 mins.

by Guest 22.10.10 19:30

Tony Bennett wrote:
Angelique wrote:The buggy really bugs me - at one point this was the excuse why they didn't go the the Millenium Restaurant and stayed on site and ate at the Tapas Restaurant. G/K said it was too far for the children to walk and they had no buggy. So where did the buggy come from to go to Sagres?
But, Angelique, we have not yet established that this 'sighting' of the McCanns-with-buggy in Sagres is genuine.

I wonder if in fact they decided they were going to spend all of the time in and around the Ocean Club and the beach, therefore they would have left behond the twin buggy they no doubt had in Rothley. Unless they decided to put their double buggy in the luggage hold. They probably reckoned that Madeleine would walk the short distances in Praia da Luz and that each of them could carry one twin around. The visit to Sagres seems unaccountable and of course the McCanns said nothing about visiting Sagres.

Amongst the more pertinent questions for that day are whether they really did agonise, as claimed, as to whether or not to go to the Tapas bar (Dr G McCann: "We nearly didn't go...") and whether they really did thaink seriously about providing extra monitoring for Madeleine and the twins in the light of two of them having, so they claim, having woken up the night before.

Of course these particular questions are redundant if indeed Madeleine was already dead and all the stuff about the two children crying the night before was fabrication.

Tony, I have been looking for more evidence of this trip to Sagres. There is of course the sighting by a witness to say he saw them there. I found this post on another site
Anonymous said :
Sep 25, 2010 12:29:00 AM

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D. Payne and his wife fade in silence with a very low profile after May 3, 2007. Tanner become the main clown on the saga to distort the story and divert the attention of the police, the Media and the public.
Tanner came back to PDL for Gerry Mockmentary.
D. Payne never came back to Portugal but Fiona was the one who went to Lisbon Court with Kate and Gerry and stayed there with Kate. Why her and not Jane?
D. Payne resemble Murat.
There is a high possibility of Murat being known by the group before the fatal incident ( he had participate in an active political campaign in UK with O' Brien, I think, and he use to come to the OC frequently). Murat could be dragged into the saga because of his resemblance with Payne, just in case that somebody spoted Payne.
Madeleine was removed from the flat before the raising of the bells. We talk about the car rented by the Mccann's more then 20 days after this day but very little is known about the vehicles the Tapas 9 were using during their stay in PDL. None rented a Car?
Kate said that they went to Sagres with Madeleine. How they get there? There is a gap of motor vehicles on that saga. An important rented car or a friend ( out of the group) with a car, is missing and can hold some clues of the mystery.

I am sure I can also remember an interview either on video or written where they speak of going. I am hunting for it.

by **Tony Bennett** 22.10.10 19:54

candyfloss wrote:I am sure I can also remember an interview either on video or written where they speak of going [to Sagres]. I am hunting for it.

Well, if one of the McCanns admits that trip to Sagres earlier in the week, then the 'sighting' that day would have to be reconsidered. Always assuming, of course, that the little girl the person saw was Madeleine.

by Guest 22.10.10 20:17

Found this in The Independant Haven't seen this article before

snipped

The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand).

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by **Tony Bennett** 22.10.10 22:15

candyfloss wrote:Found this in The Independant Haven't seen this article before

snipped

The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand).

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a-stolen-child-a-missed-birthday-a-baffling-mystery-448458.html

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Very interesting.

A couple of points, highligted in blue:

QUOTE

The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand).

UNQUOTE

There is something about that second sentence. Almost as if someone was saying: "Look, here's proof Madeleine was alive earlier in the week". Two corroborative events are mentioned. "We can prove Madeleine was alive because we have a photograph with tennis balls and someone saw us in Sagres".

The rest of the article is fascinating...lots to comment on for another time maybe.

by Angelique 22.10.10 23:19

I see what you mean about it not having been proved about the visit to Sagres. I did actually discuss the "buggy" discrepancy up on another occasion with a colleague and made a note of it but it wasn't relating to the trip to Sagres. But cant think where I put it - will try and find it.

About the article in The Independent :

"The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand)."

But is this merely the description of the "photograph" - has it actually come from G/K mouth as it were. Or is it just the journalist describing a photograph he has seen or been given and repeating information told to him about the trip.

Angelique

by **Tony Bennett** 22.10.10 23:42

Angelique wrote:Independent: "The McCanns' week was not the warmest but it had passed off well. There were tennis sessions on the two courts, where Madeleine stopped for a picture holding tennis balls, and a visit to nearby Sagres, where the family enjoyed a walk through the streets (Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand)."

But is this merely the description of the "photograph" - has it actually come from G/K mouth as it were. Or is it just the journalist describing a photograph he has seen or been given and repeating information told to him about the trip - Angelique

Hmmm, yes, maybe both references are to photographs, thus the source must be the McCann Team. But I don't think we've ever seen the Sagres photo? And does Dr Kate McCann in any of her statements mention the visit to Sagres?

re: "(Madeleine and her mother hand-in hand)"...

...no mention, once again, of the twins...

by **HiDeHo** 23.10.10 0:22

I posted all the discrepancies in the OP from memory.

There are many, many more (including the buggy).

I have not focused on the Sagres trip as, so far, I have not found anything apart from a news article that could be mistaken.

One thing I don't think I have posted here..(I lose track) is that the 'Diagram of Events' seems to be witholding information from the mini sail on Friday, (we know the twins creche records are not available for that morning also) and some details for Monday and Tuesday.

If I haven't already posted they are worth looking at..

Let me know if interested...I will search for the details and screenshots...

Tony, regarding the calling from the apartment...The 'unknown barman' seems to be of interest for that...

See articles and highlighted staff statements and rota here....

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by **Jill Havern** 23.10.10 7:21

HiDeHo wrote:If I haven't already posted they are worth looking at..

Let me know if interested...I will search for the details and screenshots...

If you have time, H, it's always worth posting up anything of interest, especially for those of us who haven't seem them and, if necessary, please start a new thread.

Thanks HiDeHo [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 09.11.10 22:42

Just been reading about the Martin Smith sighting on mccanfiles. He states that the person carrying the child was carrying her in exactly the same way as GM was carrrying Sean when he got off the plane, that is in an upright postion with her head on his shoulder and arms hanging down not around the man'sneck.

But didn't the McCanns own documentary show the child being carried in front just like the Jane Tanner sighting. To me this is a major discrepancy, if I remember the documentary correctly.

by Irish Eyes 09.11.10 23:00

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Looks like he was carrying Sean [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm suprised Kate wasn't surrounded by dogs as she's wearing her pants of ganga and carrying cuddlecat [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 09.11.10 23:24

Thank you Irish Eyes, thumbsup

yes my mistake, I have edited it.

by **Tony Bennett** 24.11.10 17:16

It's surely about time to return to these discrepancies...not least because this is the McCanns and their friends tripping themselves up with their own words.

Though I prefer to call them contradictions.

It's so hard when you're lying, isn't it?

Here's one...

In Dr Gerald McCann’s statement of 4 May (the day after Madeleine was reported missing), he says that: “Yesterday [3 May], after the daily routines, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found two cots in the children’s room in the McCanns’ apartment, not a bed or beds. Moreover, in his Vanity Fair interview in January 2008, Dr Gerald McCann said: “The scene was stark. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next lay [Cuddle Cat], which Madeleine was never without”. Once again, Dr McCann refers to beds, whereas two cots were found in the room that night.

by **Tony Bennett** 24.11.10 17:18

And here's another...

Dr Kate McCann said that at her 10.00pm check, when she claimed to have found Madeleine gone, “The first thing I noticed was that the door was open much further than we'd left it”. But how was that relevant, given that two people - her husband and Dr Matthew Oldfield - had allegedly been inside the room since they left for the Tapas restaurant earlier in the evening? How would she know how far they had left the door open?

by **Tony Bennett** 24.11.10 17:20

Here's another set of contradictions...

When Dr Gerald McCann and his male friends on holiday were compiling a time line of events that evening, on the cover of Madeleine’s ‘Activity Sticker Book’ Dr Russell O’Brien wrote down this: “9.00pm - Matt Oldfield listens at all three windows - 5A, B, D. ALL shutters down”. According to a timeline provided by Dr McCann to the ‘News of the World’, in 2008, he also said that Matthew Oldfield ‘checked at 9.00pm’. There is no mention of another check at 9.30pm. But Oldfield describes checking the children at 9.30pm. He says that he actually entered Apartment 5a at 9.30pm, but says he saw only the twins because he ‘did not look into the children’s room far enough’. He adds that he ‘thought that the room was looking a little lighter than before’. Oldfield said he entered Apartment 5a ‘by the front door’. If so, he would have passed right by the window to the children’s room. He would have been able to clearly see whether the shutters were up and the window open, as claimed. But in a still later version, Oldfield said that he entered via the patio door. In yet another version, Oldfield had said that at 9.30pm, he did not enter Apartment 5A, but only ‘listened at the window to hear if there was any noise’.

by **Tony Bennett** 24.11.10 17:24

And yet one more...

The McCanns have given three different versions of who read the children bedtime stories on the night Madeleine was reported missing: (a) it was Dr Kate McCann (b) it was Dr Gerald McCann, or (c) they both did.

by **Tony Bennett** 24.11.10 17:27

And still another one...

There were claims by the McCanns that they had ‘high tea’ with their three children in Madeleine’s crèche at around 5.30pm the day she was reported missing. One of the nannies, Charlotte Pennington, contradicted herself on the subject. On 18 October 2007, in a ‘Dispatches’ TV programme, she said: “On May 3rd there was just Madeleine I was reading a story to. I later saw them [the McCann family] round about lunch-time. That is the last time I saw them together as a family. But in a later interview for the Daily Mail, she completely contradicted that, saying she last saw the McCann family at 6pm on 3 May. The Mail account ran as follows: “Miss Pennington flew out to start work at Praia da Luz on April 28…She dismissed claims that the McCanns were not seen for six hours leading up to the disappearance. She said: ‘I was helping give the children high tea. The twins were there and Madeleine and both parents. It was supposed to finish at 5.30pm, but because they were a big group and really social, it didn't finish until about 6pm. There was nothing out of the ordinary at all’.” The McCanns themselves in their statements could not agree which of them was supposed to be having high tea with Madeleine and the twins. In other statements made by or on behalf of the McCanns, it was said that at that time (5.30pm to 6pm), Dr Gerald McCann was ‘hanging around the tennis courts’.

by **Tony Bennett** 24.11.10 17:31

And I've just brought this one to mind:

In Dr Gerald McCann’s ‘arguido’ statement of 7 September 2007, he states: “He says that he was playing tennis at 18h30 when David appeared near the tennis court and asked him through the net if he was going to continue playing. The deponent said he didn’t know because Kate might be needing help to look after the three children, even more so because they intended to bring them to the recreation area after their showers”. Clearly, then, although Dr Gerald McCann told David James Smith that he was unable to play tennis because of an Achilles tendon at 4.30pm, he was in fact playing a game of tennis at 6pm. We are now told, however, that the reason that Dr Gerald McCann sent Dr Payne up to his apartment was ‘because Kate might be needing help to look after three children’. Here he again claims: “We intended to bring [the children] to the recreation area after our showers”, despite Dr Kate McCann, back on 6 May, stating to the Portuguese police that the two of them were bathing the children between 5.30pm and 6.00pm, having already decided that the children were not going out any more. There is also that curious reference to bringing the children to the recreation area ‘after their showers’. Dr Gerald McCann does not mention having a shower at all. And Dr Kate McCann said she had just stepped out of the shower when Dr Payne came a-knocking at her front door.

by Rainbow 24.11.10 18:01

Tony Bennett wrote:It's surely about time to return to these discrepancies...not least because this is the McCanns and their friends tripping themselves up with their own words.

Though I prefer to call them contradictions.

It's so hard when you're lying, isn't it?

Here's one...

In Dr Gerald McCann’s statement of 4 May (the day after Madeleine was reported missing), he says that: “Yesterday [3 May], after the daily routines, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found two cots in the children’s room in the McCanns’ apartment, not a bed or beds. Moreover, in his Vanity Fair interview in January 2008, Dr Gerald McCann said: “The scene was stark. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next lay [Cuddle Cat], which Madeleine was never without”. Once again, Dr McCann refers to beds, whereas two cots were found in the room that night.

I dont think that is so much a discrepancy but rather a different way of describing,I have used both to describe a cot.

by Judge Mental 24.11.10 19:27

Rainbow wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:It's surely about time to return to these discrepancies...not least because this is the McCanns and their friends tripping themselves up with their own words.

Though I prefer to call them contradictions.

It's so hard when you're lying, isn't it?

Here's one...

In Dr Gerald McCann’s statement of 4 May (the day after Madeleine was reported missing), he says that: “Yesterday [3 May], after the daily routines, Madeleine and and the twins were put to bed in their respective beds at 7.30pm”. Yet when the police arrived at about 11.00pm, they found two cots in the children’s room in the McCanns’ apartment, not a bed or beds. Moreover, in his Vanity Fair interview in January 2008, Dr Gerald McCann said: “The scene was stark. On one bed the twins lay sleeping. In the next lay [Cuddle Cat], which Madeleine was never without”. Once again, Dr McCann refers to beds, whereas two cots were found in the room that night.

I dont think that is so much a discrepancy but rather a different way of describing,I have used both to describe a cot.

Well, one has to say that one is not at all surprised by this admission of yours, Rainbow. How would you be likely to describe a cupboard with books on top? Would you describe it as a book-case or a book-shelf? Or would you just describe it as a cupboard, sideboard or armoire?

More importantly, how do you think a big grown up man with children of his own and a doctor of medicine to boot, would be able to describe it? If you saw two windows, would you say there was only one window? If there were two windows, would you say there was only one?

It is a jolly good job that McCann and his wife could count, or else they may not have realised that one of their children was missing at all.

by Irish Eyes 24.11.10 19:36

I think rainbow was describing the difference between bed and cot.

I would also describe a cot as a bed.

by Judge Mental 24.11.10 20:03

Irish Eyes wrote:I think rainbow was describing the difference between bed and cot.

I would also describe a cot as a bed.

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This leads me to ask both you and Rainbow, how you would then go on to describe a bed in order to differentiate the cots from the beds? Should one perhaps take it for granted that upon you and Rainbow being rigorously questioned by the police, (police who at that time had learned from the parents that their three year old child had definitely been abducted) that you would not wish to split hairs with them and would call all the sleeping furniture cots?

If you genuinely wanted to find this child without delay, and wished to help the police as much as you possibly could, would you perhaps describe the beds as slumber-pads, divans or perhaps as mattresses on legs? Simply in order to give the police a far better idea of what you are talking about, and what you truly believe yourselves to have seen?

This talk of cots is making one rather hungry, so one will away for a manger for a few moments.

One can feel another Christmas carol coming on.

Oh little town of Praia da Luz.
How still we see them lie

by Guest 24.11.10 20:14

Isnt a cot a cot, and a bed a bed.

by Judge Mental 24.11.10 20:23

Cherry wrote:Isnt a cot a cot, and a bed a bed.

People who grew up next door to Elvis Presley may have called a bed a cot. Some YHA places still refer to beds as cots. However, a big strapping chappie from Britain would not call a bed a cot. Although we will have to sit and wait for Rainbow coming back to tell us otherwise. One can always rely on Rainbow to find answers where others seem unable to do so.

by ufercoffy 24.11.10 20:25

Judge Mental wrote:One can always rely on Rainbow to find answers where others seem unable to do so.

I 'vaguely' recall someone else being able to do that [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 24.11.10 20:28

People who grew up next door to Elvis Presley may have called a bed a cot. Some YHA places still refer to beds as cots. However, a big strapping chappie from Britain would not call a bed a cot.

Thats something I have learnt today [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] but would agree would find it hard to see how someone from Britain would refer to it in that way personally.

There's nowt as queer as folk [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by ufercoffy 24.11.10 20:32

Just being awkward but if you put a baby to bed in a cot don't you say you've put the baby to bed rather than put the baby to cot? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Guest 24.11.10 20:35

I guess you would but doesnt that mean that you are describing the act of putting the baby to bed rather than describing what exactly you are putting the baby in? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]