DP CATS FILE?

by Loving Mom 19.02.15 15:31

This morning while reading a topic or two on this forum I read, yet again, that there is an empty CATS file for GM (#19309). I also read on a different topic that there is an empty CATS file for KM (#19309). First time I read that GM and KM both share a CATS file #19309. If what I've read is true, it seems to imply that this was a file #19309 assigned to both parents regarding MM disappearance (that is what makes sense)? Since it is empty I'm guessing that means when CATS spoke to the parents regarding MM disappearance it was determined at that time that no further action was necessary (but I don't remember reading that the CATS# 19309 is shared by both parents...
Anyway, more important, it got me to wondering if DPayne has a CATS file but when I tried to look up here on the forum I did not see information in reference to a CATS file for him or not. Can anyone here answer or point me in the right direction regard any info on a possible CATS for DP?

Admin, I posted this here and another topic but move if needed (I was not sure where to ask this question). Thank you.

by Gaggzy 19.02.15 16:16

It would be interesting if he did have one.

That would back up what Yvonne Martin claimed (the on-the-scene social worker on 4-5-07).

She felt she had seen him before in a child abuse enquiry either as a witness, or .....

Then there's the Gaspar statements.

Regarding those, I think why would two adults go to the police in a missing child case and make those statements unless they were true.

by j.rob 19.02.15 16:23

Regarding those, I think why would two adults go to the police in a missing child case and make those statements unless they were true.

------

I agree. The Gaspers would have thought long and hard about making that statement. It would have been much easier for them to say nothing. But the minute Mrs Gasper learned that David Payne was on that fateful holiday she immediately made a connection between Madeleine going missing and David Payne's lewd gestures to Gerry McCann on their shared holiday in Majorca in the previous summer.

Plus, David Payne made a 100 second call to the Met Police child abuse team late on the evening of 4th May 2007. Which he later claimed he couldn't remember having made. I suspect this was in the early days before it was clear whether the Mcs and their friends were going to be given high level protection.

by Guest 19.02.15 20:37

j.rob wrote:
[size=16]I agree. The Gaspers would have thought long and hard about making that statement. It would have been much easier for them to say nothing. But the minute Mrs Gasper learned that David Payne was on that fateful holiday she immediately made a connection between Madeleine going missing and David Payne's lewd gestures to Gerry McCann on their shared holiday in Majorca in the previous summer.

The thing about the Gaspar statements is that you could try to explain them away by saying maybe they were mistaken, professional jealousy, whatever. What can't be explained away however is Leicestershire police's unforgivable delay in forwarding them on to the Portuguese investigation.

by Liz Eagles 19.02.15 20:51

Clay Regazzoni wrote:
j.rob wrote:
[size=16]I agree. The Gaspers would have thought long and hard about making that statement. It would have been much easier for them to say nothing. But the minute Mrs Gasper learned that David Payne was on that fateful holiday she immediately made a connection between Madeleine going missing and David Payne's lewd gestures to Gerry McCann on their shared holiday in Majorca in the previous summer.

The thing about the Gaspar statements is that you could try to explain them away by saying maybe they were mistaken, professional jealousy, whatever. What can't be explained away however is Leicestershire police's unforgivable delay in forwarding them on to the Portuguese investigation.

What is also remarkable is the PJ withheld a chunk of files for the protection of people and yet released the Gaspar statements.

by Doug D 19.02.15 21:35

Aquila,

Not sure that they did 'release' them.

Didn't they just miraculously appear in Portugal amongst some other papers?

by Liz Eagles 19.02.15 21:41

Doug D wrote:Aquila,

Not sure that they did 'release' them.

Didn't they just miraculously appear in Portugal amongst some other papers?

If the PJ didn't release these statements who did?

by Dr What 19.02.15 23:02

I agree with Clay.

The prime responsibility on any agency that receives a potential abuse disclosure, and that is what the Gaspar statements are, is to ensure that they are passed to the relevant authority so that the disclosure can be investigated.

For a Police Authority to withhold these statements for so long and not pass them on to the PJ is very suspicious and utterly negligent.

Yet no-one appears to have been sacked.Is it any wonder that there is such scant belief that potential child abuse allegations are ever taken seriously in this country.

by rustyjames 20.02.15 9:24

aquila wrote:
Doug D wrote:Aquila,

Not sure that they did 'release' them.

Didn't they just miraculously appear in Portugal amongst some other papers?
If the PJ didn't release these statements who did?

They were definitely released in the files: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by Doug D 20.02.15 10:59

Sorry, wires crossed!.

Yes the PJ did release them. It was Leicester that withheld them until someone 'inadvertently' slipped them in with some other doc's that went over to Portugal, according to Amaral.

by worriedmum 20.02.15 11:17

I googled CATS file as I wasn't sure how the files are created and how they could be 'emptied'. The following info is snipped from a pdf issued by Suffolk Constabulary.

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Quote ''

A CATS record will be created for every child abuse related referral received at the
CAIU or where an invitation to attend a child protection case conference or case
conference review is received. A CATS record will also be created when a police
check request has been received from a partner agency.

When a CATS investigation is allocated to an officer for investigation, they will ensure
that a detailed ‘initial investigation details and summary’ log will be completed.
This log entry should contain specific details of the allegation and the intended
course of action for the investigating officer.

A C.I.S. crime report will be completed when a crime has occurred and the ‘initial
investigation details and summary’ log information, will be cut and pasted from the
CATS record on to CIS crime report. All further investigation details and information
will be recorded on to the CATS system.

At the conclusion of the investigation, the investigating officer will ensure that they
complete a detailed ‘summary of investigation and conclusion’ log entry on the
CATS system prior to concluding the investigation and forwarding the CATS record
on to a supervisor for review and finalisation. The investigating officer and supervisor
will ensure that a copy of the ‘summary of investigation and conclusion’ log entry is
‘cut and paste’ from the CATS database onto the CIS Crime Report. It is the
responsibility of the Investigating Officer to ensure that the CATS record is regularly
updated.'' unquote

Doe anyone know when the file was created? I wonder if the file was created at the request of a partner agency, then never filled in?

by mad world 21.02.15 1:42

Imo that suggests a file existed before mm went missing. After all it wasn't a child abuse or child protection issue

by mad world 21.02.15 1:49

Imo that suggests a file existed before mm went missing. After all it wasn't a child abuse or child protection issue..it was abduction(alledgedly). So either this file was created for an earlier incident...or it was created as a result of concern for the twins after mm went missing. can't see that being the case though as we were told it was acceptable parenting..why the need to hold the the parents responsible and create a cats file if it was an abductopn.
all imo

by G-Unit 21.02.15 8:31

DC Hughes said;

A consultation with the DC Soand from the department in question confirms that this is just a file reference, but as a complement to Operation Task system for the purpose of reference, if any investigation should be necessary by the department. No work has been done on the basis of this file.
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I assumed it was created because a lot children who 'vanish' have been harmed by the parents, which both police forces were considering as a possibility.

by G-Unit 21.02.15 9:16

There is no evidence of a Cats File for David Payne, but he was a person of interest in late 2007. He had no independent alibi for the afternoon of 3rd May until he appeared on the Paraiso CCTV at 17.52pm.

Either DC Marshall was confused or the Payne's lied about their whereabouts on 3rd May. According to Marshall, David Payne said sometime in late 2007;

'he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.'

In his rogatory interview in 2008 the time has changed dramatically and Gerald is not there;

'I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors.'

Fiona Payne, according to Marshall said in 2007;

'I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.'

In her 2008 rogatory she says she didn't see Kate or the children at all. She returned from the beach, watched tennis for a short while and then;

'I'm trying to think, I'd say probably by seven o'clock we were, me and my mum headed back with the kids to start bath time. Erm, and Dave, we left him playing tennis for a bit longer. Erm, I think we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back, probably ten minutes later. Erm, and then I went for a run that night, after the kids were bathed'.'

As a matter of interest, the portugese are requesting the Gasper statements, so they knew they existed?

'As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.'

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by mad world 21.02.15 18:31

G and ks cats file should not have been empty..if you read procedure and follow it. There should have been some sort of attachment in it...even to say that they were in the clear or that inspectors felt the twins were safe to remain with their parents. Imo the contents have been whooshed. As for dp who can say?

by Loving Mom 24.02.15 0:35

G-Unit wrote:There is no evidence of a Cats File for David Payne, but he was a person of interest in late 2007. He had no independent alibi for the afternoon of 3rd May until he appeared on the Paraiso CCTV at 17.52pm.

Either DC Marshall was confused or the Payne's lied about their whereabouts on 3rd May. According to Marshall, David Payne said sometime in late 2007;

'he saw Madeleine, for the last time, at 17H00 on 3/5/07 in the McCann apartment. Also present there were Kate and Gerry. He did not indicate the motive for being there or what he was doing. He also cannot indicate how long he stayed.'

In his rogatory interview in 2008 the time has changed dramatically and Gerald is not there;

'I was you know going to Kate's about six thirty, err and I went into their apartment through the patio doors.'

Fiona Payne, according to Marshall said in 2007;

'I examined once again the declarations of Fiona Payne. In her depositions, she states that she went to the McCann apartment, around 19H00, on the 3rd of May, together with Kate. She states afterwards that, 10 minutes later, the husband arrived; it is not clear which husband she refers to.'

In her 2008 rogatory she says she didn't see Kate or the children at all. She returned from the beach, watched tennis for a short while and then;

'I'm trying to think, I'd say probably by seven o'clock we were, me and my mum headed back with the kids to start bath time. Erm, and Dave, we left him playing tennis for a bit longer. Erm, I think we'd bathed the kids by the time he got back, probably ten minutes later. Erm, and then I went for a run that night, after the kids were bathed'.'

As a matter of interest, the portugese are requesting the Gasper statements, so they knew they existed?

'As requested, appended are the statements of Arul and Katherina Gaspar.'

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When you state "no evidence of a Cats file for David Payne" do you know that for a fact, were you able to look it up officially?
I'd like to know if there is a way for each and every Tapas member, Jez W., Robert Murat, and all the (key players) to be looked up to see if any of them have a Cats file. Or has this already been researched?

by Loving Mom 24.02.15 0:42

Dr What wrote:snipped:
The prime responsibility on any agency that receives a potential abuse disclosure, and that is what the Gaspar statements are, is to ensure that they are passed to the relevant authority so that the disclosure can be investigated.

IMO, If DP did not have a cats file prior to the Gaspar statement surely he would have had one soon after the Gaspar statement?

by G-Unit 24.02.15 8:33

Sorry! When I said 'no evidence' of a CATS file I meant in the PJ files. I have no way of looking anywhere else. From what is in the PJ files he should have been looked at very closely, but whether he was I don't know. The Gasper statements, remember, didn't say that David Payne was referring to Madeleine, Katherina Gasper says she believes that he was referring to Madeleine.

It would seem that both he and his wife lied about 3rd May. He allegedly said he was in the McCann apartment at 5pm with both of the McCanns then changed the time to 6.30pm with just Kate McCann present. Fiona was in the apartment at 7pm then she wasn't there at all.

I would have expected the Payne/O'Brien/Oldfield children to be very hungry at teatime on 3rd May. Their Mark Warner high tea was served at 5pm. It was 5.30pm when the first members of the group arrive at the Paraiso, and 5.45pm when the first child arrives - the Oldfield baby. It is almost 6pm before any food and all the children can be seen. By 6.30pm all the men are gone and the women seem to be getting ready to leave. I can only see one child now, on Fiona Payne's lap. I assume that Rachael Oldfield is bending over her baby, and Jane Tanner also. I cannot see the older O'Brien child or the older Payne child. Are they playing outside alone or did they actually leave with the men I wonder? Anyone with better eyesight is welcome to comment.
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