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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
Welcome to 'The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann' forum 🌹

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Post by Varriott 01.07.14 20:17

canada12 wrote:
Varriott wrote:
canada12 wrote:
Varriott wrote:
canada12 wrote:But Malinka has always been in the frame regarding the McCanns. How can people say there's no link back to TM when the police are re-interviewing him? He's one big connection to Murat, and Murat is one big connection to the McCanns. Connect the dots.

Sorry, but I'm not following you, canada12.

People here seem to be complaining that the interviews today in Portugal have no connection with the McCanns.
That was my response.

What is the link between Murat and the McCanns?

If you don't know I'm not going to take the time to explain it. Do some research on this forum and you'll easily find the information.

I think I'm fairly well read on this.  My impression was that the only connections were tenuous at best.  Something about Murat being from Exeter, and Gerry refusing to answer a direct question of whether he knew Murat.  I didn't realize that anything more firm than that had been established.  My mind is racing trying to figure out why they'd be grilling Malinka today.  Maybe there's stuff we just don't know about.  I'd like to think the net is closing, but I can't understand it.
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Post by Guest 01.07.14 20:21

canada12 wrote:
Varriott wrote:
canada12 wrote:
Varriott wrote:
canada12 wrote:But Malinka has always been in the frame regarding the McCanns. How can people say there's no link back to TM when the police are re-interviewing him? He's one big connection to Murat, and Murat is one big connection to the McCanns. Connect the dots.

Sorry, but I'm not following you, canada12.

People here seem to be complaining that the interviews today in Portugal have no connection with the McCanns.
That was my response.

What is the link between Murat and the McCanns?

Sorry, that was uncharacteristically abrupt of me. My apologies.
Edited my post... Robert Murat is a person who was "on the scene" very early in the McCann saga, and postings about him can be found in a lot of places on this forum, and in other places where the witness statements to the Portuguese police can be read.

One thing that instantly springs to mind, is when GM was asked on camera by a journalist did he know Robert Murat and he replied "No comment". Not 'No', but 'No comment'. Very different.
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Post by FrankS 01.07.14 20:23

I'm pretty sure that Murat will be brought in for questioning.

That will be done in absolute secrecy though. If it has not been done today.
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Post by FrankS 01.07.14 20:26

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4 arguidos were questioned already - tomorrow starts the questioning of the 11 witnesses [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Post by stargazer59 01.07.14 20:28

TVI stating SY are not interested in speaking to Murat, checked with Joana to confirm i got it right !
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Post by FrankS 01.07.14 20:30

stargazer59 wrote:TVI stating SY are not interested in speaking to Murat, checked with Joana to confirm i got it right !
They would not announce that he would be a P.O.I at the moment. 

No chance.
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Post by NickE 01.07.14 20:30

SERGEY MALINKA
Processo, Volume VI, pages 1453-58 (6 pages)

WITNESSES STATEMENT

Date: 2007/05/16 Time: 22:30 Location: DIC Portim'
Officer: John Carlos and Luis Pereira, Inspectors


--- With specific reference to the 03 May 2007, the witness confirms to have woken up at his parents' home, between 9 and 10am, having followed his normal professional activity, which is the service and repair of computers. He does not recall which customers were visited, since anything that occurs daily is registered in his MDA. 
--- Also he does not recollect having lunch that day. He knows he got home by 18H00. He dined with the family and stayed in his room for the rest of the night, using the computer for games, Messenger, internet and may have carried out some repairs to the equipment of a client. 



Can not be difficult for police to confirm by logs!?

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Goncalo Amaral: "Then there's the window we found Kate's finger prints.
She said she had never touched that window and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day....it doesn't add up"
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Post by FrankS 01.07.14 20:31

Madeleine McCann case: Portuguese police question four suspects
Questioning is being conducted by Portuguese detectives with their British counterparts sitting in.




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Scotland Yard detectives arrive at the police station in Faro. Photograph: Reuters
Portuguese police have begun questioning four suspects identified by Scotland Yard detectives as being able to assist them in their investigation into the disappearance of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] seven years ago in Praia da Luz.
Sources close to the case named one suspect as Sergey Malinka, a 29-year-old Russian-born IT engineer who was first questioned by police in 2007.
The law office representing Malinka confirmed that he had appeared at a police station in Faro on Tuesday morning and was being questioned. The firm said the questioning had been "complicated and was likely to continue into Wednesday".
Malinka, who now holds Portuguese citizenship, was questioned by Portuguese police as a witness shortly after Madeleine's disappearance but was never declared a suspect.
At the time, it was thought he had been brought in for questioning by Portuguese police due to his association with Robert Murat, a British expat with whom he had some business dealings.
Murat was declared a suspect 10 days after Madeleine's disappearance but was later cleared, and received £600,000 in libel damages from 11 British tabloid newspapers in 2008. Malinka was also awarded undisclosed damages.
The other suspects, all confirmed to be Portuguese citizens, were seen entering the police building in Faro on Tuesday morning.
One was later seen leaving in the company of two detectives in an unmarked police car, and two other suspects departed in a private car in the company of a lawyer.
The questioning is being conducted by Portuguese detectives with their British counterparts sitting in. While Scotland Yard detectives are not allowed to direct any queries to suspects or witnesses, they can ask Portuguese police to pursue different lines of inquiry during questioning.
Murat told the Guardian he had had only limited dealings with Malinka since 2007. He described him as "hard-working and a nice guy", and said his status as a suspect was "disgusting and ridiculous".
"Back in 2007, police questioning of Sergey was very thorough and meticulous and I can't see any reason why he has been brought in again", Murat said. "My heart goes out to him and his family because I know exactly what they will be going through right now."
Police sources said the current phase of inquiries was bound by time constraints and Friday was given as the deadline.
British police sniffer dogs arrived in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] this week with Scotland Yard detectives. Sources close to the case were unclear as to their purpose, but told the Guardian: "We believe they could be used in the inspection of cars."
Police sources said the current round of questioning of suspects and witnesses was linked to scrubland searches conducted in Praia da Luz at the beginning of June, and had been scheduled and approved for some time.
The regional police chief Mota Carmo, who oversaw a seven-day search in the resort last month, was not present during questioning. Police said he was currently on leave.
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Post by stargazer59 01.07.14 20:35

FrankS wrote:
stargazer59 wrote:TVI stating SY are not interested in speaking to Murat, checked with Joana to confirm i got it right !
They would not announce that he would be a P.O.I at the moment. 

No chance.
They named Malinka though didn't they?
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Post by Seek truth 01.07.14 20:35

FrankS wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[ltr]@xklamation[/ltr]

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4 arguidos were questioned already - tomorrow starts the questioning of the 11 witnesses [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Good to know.

Now will we be able to see the files in the end like the Portuguese files online, why not?
 Don't get much out of tax payers money, just have to trust them, like the mccanns.
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Post by NickE 01.07.14 20:38

stargazer59 wrote:
FrankS wrote:
stargazer59 wrote:TVI stating SY are not interested in speaking to Murat, checked with Joana to confirm i got it right !
They would not announce that he would be a P.O.I at the moment. 

No chance.
They named Malinka though didn't they?
Hmm. from Joana´s site.
"This morning the PJ of Faro called them for questioning. Among the suspects, TVI knows, is Sergey Malinka, a Russian citizen who was investigated by the PJ back in 2007. Malinka is a friend of Robert Murat, a former arguido who the English Police leaves out of the investigation." 
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Post by FrankS 01.07.14 20:56

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1 JULY 2014 | POSTED BY [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


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Media gathering outside back entrance to Faro police station | Photo by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Report by Marisa Rodrigues | Text by Cláudia Rosenbusch | Image by Jorge Belo | Video Edition by Pedro Madeira

TVI news anchor Paulo Salvador - The Judiciary Police started today questioning the suspects of the Maddie McCann case, the English child who disappeared in Praia da Luz in May 2007, when she was 3 years old. The formal request was done by the British police, who have identified people they wish to see questioned.

TVI news reporter Cláudia Rosenbusch [Voice Over]- Four people with arguido status in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. The request came from the Scotland Yard. This morning the PJ of Faro called them for questioning. Among the suspects, TVI knows, is Sergey Malinka, a Russian citizen who was investigated by the PJ back in 2007. Malinka is a friend of Robert Murat, a former arguido who the English Police leaves out of the investigation. The British detectives also target a former Ocean Club driver, and a resident of Praia da Luz, a man with psychiatric problems who wasn't seen in the days following Madeleine's disappearance. Finally, the fourth suspect is a young man, resident in Praia da Luz. 

In common is the fact that all the suspects reside in Praia da Luz and to have contacted each other by phone in May 2007, when Maddie disappeared. They are suspects for the British police, but considered irrelevant to the Judiciary Police, who had already questioned them during the investigation in 2007.

Besides the four arguidos, the letter rogatory from the English police also requests the questioning of 11 witnesses. Most are former employees of the Ocean Club. Some have already been questioned in the Portuguese investigation. The Portuguese Public Ministry authorized these proceedings, and sent the letters to the PJ in Faro so they would fulfil what was requested. Scotland Yard is back in Praia da Luz, with them also came with sniffer dogs but it is unclear in what kind of searches they'll be used.

TVI news anchor Paulo Salvador - Following these questionings is the journalist Marisa Rodrigues. Good afternoon, Marisa, to whom I ask how did the questioning during the morning go?

TVI news journalist Marisa Rodrigues [in Faro] - Good afternoon, the information that we have is that the questionings are still taking place. Today we observed the arrival of the four suspects to the Judiciary Police headquarters, where they were constituted, formally, as arguidos, as well as the 11 witnesses who will make statements. By the sheer quantity of people that were called here we foresee that these questionings will take a number of days, we don't know yet how many days exactly. 

At least two arguidos arrived here to the Judiciary Police headquarters in Faro during the morning - in total there are four arguidos who have in common the fact that all of them are residents in Praia da Luz, they have contacted each other by phone at the time of the disappearance, some just a few hours before and others after the event - and this is what makes them to be considered as suspects by the English investigation.

Among these four arguidos - they are all Portuguese except one who is Russian - there is a former Ocean Club worker, the driver who used to pick up tourists from the airport to the Ocean Club resort. The Russian was also a witness in the Portuguese authorities' process [2007/08], was questioned, the Judiciary Police searched his house, his computers were seized for forensic examination, he was thoroughly investigated and nothing was detected.

The third arguido, TVI knows that is a person with a psychiatric disorder, suffers from schizophrenia, is a 51 years old man and was allegedly identified by a witness who said he had similarities to one of the numerous e-fits divulged by the English Police. This man arrived accompanied by a friend who told us - though he didn't want to be filmed - and guaranteed that this man, who is now a suspect, stayed all night in his own house on the 3rd of May 2007 and that he isn't involved in this case in anyway.

TVI news anchor Paulo Salvador - A case that we will also follow at TVI24 [sister TV channel to TVI with 24 hour news], thank you Marisa.


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17 comments »

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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]1
my goodness isn't this a big show just a week before mr amaral case up again I cant understand all this taxpayers money being spent on this farse when we all know who are the guilty ones shame on Scotland yard when kate Gerry and tapas croud should be first to be hauled in
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 14:45
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]2
why hasn't kate Gerry and tapas been hauled in Scotland yard such a big show just before the case next week were not stupid its all a shame such a lot money being spent on this just awful
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 14:50
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Joana Morais said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]3
«Será a polícia portuguesa a conduzir os interrogatórios, mas na Judiciária existe uma convicção clara, resumida numa frase por uma fonte próxima do processo: "Estes são os suspeitos da Scotland Yard e não da PJ, que se limita a cumprir o que lhe é solicitado." Outro investigador da Judiciária diz não compreender a lógica dos colegas britânicos. "Até agora, não trouxeram nada de novo."» [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 15:06
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]4
We were only discussing this last night, and my wife and I both don't understand why the McCann's weren't charged with neglect. Here in the US, no matter what your excuse, you would have been charged after leaving 3 children alone. 
I believe there's more to the case, and if something has happened to Madeleine, and it was an accident, then why cover it up! It makes no sense.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 15:27
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Joana Morais said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]5
The absurdity of these questionings resumed in one sentence: @skymartinbrunt One suspect has been given 253 questions to answer. Scot Yard joint theories: sex motive or robbery that went wrong

A "or" for 10 million pounds not bad, eh?
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 15:40
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]6
sex motive...or...robbery. And 253 questions.
They're conducting this as a fucking multiple choice. Please circle the box.
A, B or C.

Forensics can added later.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 15:55
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]7
What about the questions that KM still has not answered? It's all down to the rottenness of current UK government. It's disgusting that politics and spin are interfering in law and the effects on peoples lives. What is that call it, collateral damage, all to protect someone of others. 250 questions eh. Deadwood is determined to trap some poor sucker into taking the wrap..... No proof needed, just deflection, the rotten UK press will do the rest.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 15:57
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]8
All this nonsense for SY to come up with " We believe Madeleine is still alive ." While the McCanns take Dr. Amaral for every euro he has left .
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 16:45
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]9
The UK has no business whatsoever poking their nose in other Countries Investigations , has redwood and his superiors nothing better to do ?Companies are going into liquidation in the Uk , and these bunch of clowns are interfering in the Portuguese Police business , and wasting public money or are the mccanns paying for this out of the "fund" they created going round the world with a begging bowl and taking people to court to try and SILENCE THE TRUTH FROM BEING EXPOSED ? This case would have been SOLVED 7 years ago with costing the British public money by DR Amaral , had the previous bent Government not interfered and literally hindered the mccanns from being CHARGED . This case will not be pinned on others as its a high profile case , as people round the world want answers and convictions and NOT SCAPEGOATS BLAMED FOR THIS . Its about time the Portuguese Police take the mccanns in and get THEM TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS THEY REFUSED TO ANSWER 7 YEARS AGO while redwood is there he can do something positive and sensible and witness this , then charge the hideous pair with neglect , wasting police time , fraud and everything else the law permits and hold them in custody with no bail till their case comes up for hearing . Instead of the gruesome twosome trying to dip their nasty little paws into DR Amarals pocket and claiming a million pounds , they would face justice for their part in the "missing" girl . WE hear an EX President of France is in Police Custody for corruption , very soon it could be ex prime ministers of the UK who helped the mccans flee prosecution in Portugal follow suit . 

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 16:56
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]10
I am English and let me tell you mr Cameron this is election year and all that believe mc cans are guilty wont be voteing for you after this farse its my money that is being spent im a taxpayer ill remember this
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 16:59
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]11
Regarding the comment from the US person above - it is obvious why the McCanns decided to cover up their daughter's death. They quickly realised that they stood to lose everything - their jobs, custody of the other two children, their liberty. Even if it was an accident or accidental overdose of sedative - an autopsy would have revealed the truth. They could not afford for the truth to come out.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 17:05
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]12
Yes #7 and the rottenness of the one before! Each successive government more rotten.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 17:35
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]13
@10 Don't worry its UKIP next year the ONLY party with COMMONSENSE left in the UK . Maybe then we the British Public can ask Nigel Farage to re open this case and charge all those that helped the mccanns escape justice , can you imagine it will be a case like whats going on in France right now , we will hear of Ex Prime ministers charged with Corruption . If I were Cameron and if he wants his seat next year he better rethink and advise the Home Secretary to get SY to make the mccans answer the questions they refused to answer 7 years ago and while they are doing that get them to ask the mccanns WHY they kept changing their stories to the Portuguese Police and why Jane Tanner tried to give Imaginary sightings and charge the lot of them .That WILL BE JUSTICE FOR THE POOR DEAD CHILD
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 18:10
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Joana Morais said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]14
@13 Sorry no comments supporting a party that I believe to be on the far right and whose MEP's [see Roger Knapman] overtly racist comments have already defamed Portugal regarding this case are going to be allowed from now on. Please make your comments without resorting to that type of demagogic BS, thank you.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 18:24
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]15
off subject a little but interesting to note the unclaimed reward offered by NOW te donated part was given to McCanns and not shared as promised between different childrens charitie as promised and printed. Which I suppose is a kind of fraud. and notice the Mcs have nevementioned. See Niges McCann Files for all the details, its just money with the Mcs nothing more. Sorry Joana to go off topic but I was livid, they could take monies from otherchildren in need.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 19:25
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Anonymous said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]16
Why not just ask Kate McCann the 48 questions she refused to answer seven years ago.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]01/07/2014 19:59
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]Joana Morais said...[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]17
«British police sniffer dogs arrived in Portugal this week with Scotland Yard detectives. Sources close to the case were unclear as to their purpose, but told the Guardian: "We believe they could be used in the inspection of cars."» [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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Post by margaret 01.07.14 21:07

FrankS wrote:
In common is the fact that all the suspects reside in Praia da Luz and to have contacted each other by phone in May 2007, when Maddie disappeared. They are suspects for the British police, but considered irrelevant to the Judiciary Police, who had already questioned them during the investigation in 2007.


Erm, hello......

This information has become known from looking at phone records then?  Mrs
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Post by loopzdaloop 01.07.14 21:41

Haven't read through yet and sure someone may have already said this but....

I look forward to the Mccann's coming out to give media interviews in support of these four people because after all they aren't really suspects are they.... they are "arguido's" which really just means assistants or person who can be of help an not suspects.

Right Mccanns?

If you don't say anything... does that mean you were suspects all along too ?!
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Post by NickE 01.07.14 21:42

margaret wrote:
FrankS wrote:
In common is the fact that all the suspects reside in Praia da Luz and to have contacted each other by phone in May 2007, when Maddie disappeared. They are suspects for the British police, but considered irrelevant to the Judiciary Police, who had already questioned them during the investigation in 2007.


Erm, hello......

This information has become known from looking at phone records then?  Mrs
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[ltr]Then K McCann had six calls/texts between 2216 and 2228. My sixth sense tells me that ALL the evening contacts involved Murat in some way.[/ltr]

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Post by margaret 01.07.14 21:56

loopzdaloop wrote:Haven't read through yet and sure someone may have already said this but....

I look forward to the Mccann's coming out to give media interviews in support of these four people because after all they aren't really suspects are they.... they are "arguido's" which really just means assistants or person who can be of help an not suspects.

Right Mccanns?

If you don't say anything... does that mean you were suspects all along too ?!

Good point. They're a bit stuck here aren't they? They can't be 'bouyed' by this news because they will make their own situation more serious as they were once/still are arguidos. What a pickle.  lol! 
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Post by Guest 01.07.14 22:14

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Post by canada12 01.07.14 22:17

I'm sure they'll get out of making a comment by having Clarrie issue a statement: "Kate and Gerry won't be commenting on anything concerning this phase of the investigation and they urge the public to please disregard any ludicrous or outrageous stories that may appear in the press. Also please continue to contribute to Madeleine's fund as Kate and Gerry remain convinced she may be alive and underneath an unturned stone."
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Post by worriedmum 01.07.14 22:19

canada12 wrote:I'm sure they'll get out of making a comment by having Clarrie issue a statement: "Kate and Gerry won't be commenting on anything concerning this phase of the investigation and they urge the public to please disregard any ludicrous or outrageous stories that may appear in the press. Also please continue to contribute to Madeleine's fund as Kate and Gerry remain convinced she may be alive and underneath an unturned stone."
 laughat
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Post by HelenMeg 01.07.14 22:20

canada12 wrote:I'm sure they'll get out of making a comment by having Clarrie issue a statement: "Kate and Gerry won't be commenting on anything concerning this phase of the investigation and they urge the public to please disregard any ludicrous or outrageous stories that may appear in the press. Also please continue to contribute to Madeleine's fund as Kate and Gerry remain convinced she may be alive and underneath an unturned stone."
 big grin

I get the feeling someone is going to explode before too long... tensions must be running high for anyone who was a part of this  - someone will talk - its building up to a crescendo (SY are fond of musical terms aren't they..)
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Post by tasprin 01.07.14 22:31

The arguido mother of the missing child refused to answer police questions, maybe the 4 new arguidos will do the same.
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Post by canada12 01.07.14 22:33

tasprin wrote:The arguido mother of the missing child refused to answer police questions, maybe the 4 new arguidos will do the same.

I think that would give SY and the PJ an interesting response in itself if the arguidos refused to answer questions. Don't you think?
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Post by Woofer 01.07.14 22:35

From TVI broadcast today :-

"TVI news reporter Cláudia Rosenbusch [Voice Over]- Four people with arguido status in the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. The request came from the Scotland Yard. This morning the PJ of Faro called them for questioning. Among the suspects, TVI knows, is Sergey Malinka, a Russian citizen who was investigated by the PJ back in 2007. Malinka is a friend of Robert Murat, a former arguido who the English Police leaves out of the investigation. The British detectives also target a former Ocean Club driver, and a resident of Praia da Luz, a man with psychiatric problems who wasn't seen in the days following Madeleine's disappearance. Finally, the fourth suspect is a young man, resident in Praia da Luz. 

Why so keen to say Robert Murat is left out of the investigation - almost as weird as them leaving K&G out of the investigation ?

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Post by ShuBob 01.07.14 22:36

So knowing he's involved in the most high profile missing child case, Malinka doesn't return to his native Russia where he's almost guaranteed freedom from extradition by Putin's government. Instead, he assumes Portuguese citizenship and remains in Portugal to be hauled back in for questioning 7 years later and made an arguido.

Yeah, it all makes sense  never mind 
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Post by FrankS 01.07.14 22:38

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Post by ultimaThule 01.07.14 22:41

ShuBob wrote:So knowing he's involved in the most high profile missing child case, Malinka doesn't return to his native Russia where he's almost guaranteed freedom from extradition by Putin's government. Instead, he assumes Portuguese citizenship and remains in Portugal to be hauled back in for questioning 7 years later and made an arguido.

Yeah, it all makes sense  never mind 

Have you lived in Russia, ShuBob?  Malinka remaining in Portugal makes perfect sense to me.
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Post by canada12 01.07.14 22:43

These headlines were unthinkable & unprintable 7 years ago...3 years ago... 1 year ago.
To have printed those headlines would have resulted in instant Carter-Rucking.
What's changed?
Quite a lot, actually.
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Post by ShuBob 01.07.14 22:44

ultimaThule wrote:
ShuBob wrote:So knowing he's involved in the most high profile missing child case, Malinka doesn't return to his native Russia where he's almost guaranteed freedom from extradition by Putin's government. Instead, he assumes Portuguese citizenship and remains in Portugal to be hauled back in for questioning 7 years later and made an arguido.

Yeah, it all makes sense  never mind 

Have you lived in Russia, ShuBob?  Malinka remaining in Portugal makes perfect sense to me.

No. I haven't lived in Portugal either.....
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Post by petunia 01.07.14 22:45

A couple of months ago we had "a source close to the family" saying Kate and Gerry where been kept fully informed'today we are told Kate and Gerry will not comment' it look's to me like the source is all sourced out interesting times me thinks
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