Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[Cristobell]

Very interesting info from ITV News:

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Madeleine police 'taken by surprise' by discovery

By Martin Geissler, ITV News Correspondent

There have been a couple of developments here that have taken us and have perhaps taken the police teams by surprise.

At the very edge of the wasteland where officers are searching are a couple of white tents.

Under them is a hole. They found it yesterday, it was covered by a couple of sheets of corrugated iron and then that was covered by some soil.

They dug away and they pulled these sheets apart yesterday and they found this very precise hole in the shape of a square - now, that's of interest to them, they didn't know it was there.

We've seen a couple of police officers in forensic suits inside those tents, we don't know what they've found, we don't know if it is of specific interest but we do know it's something they didn't anticipate when they got here.

They're over by the Rua das Lages somewhere. This was the location of the fisherman's cottage from that weird episode of A Place In The Sun I mentioned a little while back. I have wondered before about the little square brick building there.

Growing up in PdL, I would bet Robert Murat knew these parts like the back of his hand.

As did keen joggers Kate and Gerry - probably more so than the locals, who are probably too busy working to enjoy the beauty of the surrounding area.

[nglfi]

Je pense à la question que certaines personnes ont soulevé que les échantillons d'ADN renvoyés de la FSS, voire de la taie d'oreiller Rothley ont peut-être été mal famé. Je pense que même s'ils l'étaient, ce n'est pas grave parce que si un squelette ou des parties d'un corps qui contiennent de l'ADN sont trouvées, elles peuvent être confirmées avec 99% de certitude comme étant un parent de la famille McCann. Et vraiment, ils n'ont aucun moyen de faire valoir leur moyen de sortir de ça! Je crois que j'ai lu quelque part que la PJ ont déjà des échantillons des McCann il est donc trop tard pour eux de refuser de fournir un échantillon de toute façon.

Excellent point. Même si elles ne sont pas en possession d'un de l'ADN de Madeleine, ils peuvent comparer tout ADN trouvé à Kate, Gerry, et l'ADN de leurs enfants.

Si jamais un squelette complet se trouve, informations dentaires ou autres pourraient, sans l'ADN, aussi mener à l'identification.
L'"nous ne serons pas venir jusqu'à ce que vous avez ADN" par le couple McCann semble si psychopathe.

if Maddie did not dna "McCann"? They never find a matching DNA was Madeleine Mccann  

Eh? My French isn't that good! C'est pas mal mais pas excellent!

[Guest]

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You've got to twist, and then pull, Sir. You don't want to just tear the tick from your uhm, nutsack. Sir.

[Cristobell]

Surge in activity:


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[Sceptic]

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[Markus 2]

“A four day search on three sites totaling 17 or so acres, lasting four days shows a lack of commitment. Either you are going to search the area fully and completely, or you are not. If you can exclude the scrubland and potential burial sites or areas where clothing of evidence may have been discarded within a square kilometer of the apartment where she was last seen, then it becomes a very different type of crime”, Bailey an eminent cold case investigator, told the Sunday World.
That is what we said yesterday , bring in the Time TEAM

[nglfi]

Je pense à la question que certaines personnes ont soulevé que les échantillons d'ADN renvoyés de la FSS, voire de la taie d'oreiller Rothley in townre été mal famé. Je pense que mês l'étaient, ce n'est pas grave parce que si un squelette ou des parties d'un corps qui contiennent de l'ADN sont trouvées, elles peuvent être confirmées avec 99% de certitude comme étant un parent de la famille McCann. Et vraiment, ils n'ont aucun moyen de faire valoir leur moyen de sortir de ça! Je crois que j'ai lu quelque part que la PJ ont déjà des échantillons des McCann il est donc trop tard pour eux de refuser de fournir un échantillon de toute façon.

Excellent point. Même si elles ne sont pas en possession d'un de l'ADN de Madeleine, ils peuvent comparer tout ADN trouvé à Kate, Gerry, et l'ADN de leurs enfants.

Si jamais un squelette complet se trouve, informations dentaires ou autres pourraient, sans l'ADN, aussi mener à l'identification.
L'"nous ne serons pas venir jusqu'à ce que vous avez ADN" par le couple McCann semble si psychopathe.

if Maddie did not dna "McCann"? They never find a matching DNA was Madeleine Mccann  

Thanks for posting that.  It did cross my mind as well but I didn't want to bring the subject up.  It made me think about it as GM was so positive i.e. "finding DNA", if he knows MBM's DNA doesn't match the McCanns.

It could be one of the reasons that the McCanns didn't want Madeleine's health records released very early on, only IMO.

But if that was the case, when samples that were found in the hire car were sent off for analysis, they would have come back as a complete mismatch. It would have been the perfect cover up 'So, you've found blood in the scenic, well it doesn't belong to anyone connected with the McCanns.' But they did initially confirm a match. So IMO the body was def in the Scenic and Maddie is def the biological child of those two.

[ProfessorPPlum]

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looks a bit Rickwood to me...

You deviant you!

[OpenMind]

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Thought this was interesting in that it isn't very pro.......

[PeterMac]

. . .So IMO the body was def in the Scenic and Maddie is def the biological child of those two.

The body ? or something in which the body had been "hidden" or carried and had leaked - and which is no longer available, and which Mitchell said was never there anyway.

[nglfi]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

[DurhamGuy1967]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Fngerprints have to be on a smooth polished surface, Fingerprints do not work on galvanised metal. So I don't believe you could get prints off the sheet even it it wasn't rusty. ( That's what a scene of crime told me when we were burgled )

[frost]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

I was mulling over those gloves myself it would be interesting if they came upon a pair of those on their digs , surely they could still be fingerprints on the inside of the gloves

[Bishop Brennan]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth. The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none. Dead end there.

[Markus 2]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

True, been there too many times. Shadow.

[nglfi]

. . .So IMO the body was def in the Scenic and Maddie is def the biological child of those two.

The body ?  or something in which the body had been "hidden" or carried and had leaked - and which is no longer available, and which Mitchell said was never there anyway.

Actually I was thinking about that the other day, that potentially what is buried outside PDL is the pajamas and possibly other items associated with disposal,  and the body was buried closer to home. It's a possibility.  Either way I believe that she's a biological child of K and G.
Ps, thank you for answering my question earlier re DNA, but what did you mean by a qualified yes to matching discovered DNA with the macs? If they found remains and matched DNA to a sample from adult McCanns, do you think that would be strong enough to stand up in court?

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Fngerprints have to be on a smooth polished surface, Fingerprints do not work on galvanised metal. So I don't believe you could get prints off the sheet even it it wasn't rusty. ( That's what a scene of crime told me when we were burgled )

Oh well, the thought was encouraging for a few minutes anyway :)

[nglfi]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

True, been there too many times. Shadow.

I might be wrong but I have a very clear memory of watching a video in which Gerry is giving a short interview to someone behind the camera, whilst he is putting items in the boot and he is clearly wearing gloves? I'm not sure if I could find it again. This case does occupy much of my spare thinking time so I may even have dreamt this! I'll try and find the link

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

I might be wrong but I have a very clear memory of watching a video in which Gerry is giving a short interview to someone behind the camera, whilst he is putting items in the boot and he is clearly wearing gloves? I'm not sure if I could find it again. This case does occupy much of my spare thinking time so I may even have dreamt this! I'll try and find the link

No gloves, forum myth.   

[DonNewbery]

... unless I'm being blind and haven't spotted it. Sounds like a potentially v important development.

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[Cristobell]

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From the desk of Donal Macintyre is enough to discredit the story.  DM did a ridiculous indepth investigation into the disappearance of Maddie, his conclusion if I remember correctly was two abductors who handed the child out of the window and cleaned up the apartment.  Same school of thought as MWT etc.

[Markus 2]

... unless I'm being blind and haven't spotted it. Sounds like a potentially v important development.

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Maybe they dont have a clue where to look, but they probably know they might find something interesting ,so, taken-by-surprise-by-discovery-of-hole that will probably send them off in another direction.

[sofieellis]

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Thought this was interesting in that it isn't very pro.......

And it helpfully points out that the police files have been published

• August 4 - Thousands of pages of evidence from the Portuguese police files in the exhaustive investigation into Madeleine's disappearance are made public. They reveal details of the lines of inquiry pursued by detectives, witness statements and scores of previously unknown sightings of the little girl.
  
  

[ProfessorPPlum]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:

Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Wasn't Gerry always very careful to wear those blue surgical gloves?  I'm thinking of the video in which they're loading up the Scenic with stuff and he's wearing them for some very very strange reason!

That's an old forum myth.  The picture from an angle looks a bit like gloves but there were none.  Dead end there.  

Thank you Bishop. And the imaginary gloves weren't blue either. They were imaginary YELLOW.

[AndyB]

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Thought this was interesting in that it isn't very pro.......

And it helpfully points out that the police files have been published

• August 4 - Thousands of pages of evidence from the Portuguese police files in the exhaustive investigation into Madeleine's disappearance are made public. They reveal details of the lines of inquiry pursued by detectives, witness statements and scores of previously unknown sightings of the little girl.
  

And describes the original Portuguese investigation as exhaustive rather than the "botched" that we're accustomed to hearing from the MSM. Something does seem to have changed somewhere. I'd love to know what

[Cheshire Cat]

The article in Sunday World is quite surprising - it is highly critical of operation Grange. Worth reading and not dismissing.
 
Officers searching scrubland around the Praia da Luz resort for the body of Maddie McCann, or a clue to her whereabouts, are still shooting in the dark, cold case specialist Alan Bailey told the Sunday World.
The former head of the Irish Cold Case unit claims that the Metropolitan Police search is far to wide and lacking direction and demonstrates a lack of commitment to the case, exclusively claims today.
“A four day search on three sites totaling 17 or so acres, lasting four days shows a lack of commitment. Either you are going to search the area fully and completely, or you are not. If you can exclude the scrubland and potential burial sites or areas where clothing of evidence may have been discarded within a square kilometer of the apartment where she was last seen, then it becomes a very different type of crime”, Bailey an eminent cold case investigator, told the Sunday World.
The specialist says that if she was abducted by a fixated preferential paedophile in an opportunist way, then local scrubland would be a place to abuse and get rid of evidence.
“Most of these kind of abductions are really wrong place, wrong time, and so, an opportunist predator could have spotted Maddie leaving her apartment searching for her mother, and snatched her immediately. These offenders don’t need much planning because they are always looking for an configuration of events to make their escape and snatch”, he said.
“An offender needs the child to present themselves, be lost and alone, for example. The environment must be suitable with a lack of CCTV cameras, and a lack of witnesses or potential witness is the third requirement of the opportunist snatch. If a full search of these sites were conducted then we could exclude this and concentrate on the more planned kidnap and snatch by a gang of paedophiles which is always the more unlikely scenario”, he said.
The investigator says that the Gardai would not have opened up the possibility of a breakthrough on the basis of such a wide search over such a short time. “We would have simply had an open ended search and not finished until we were confident that all the work was done and it cannot be done in four days after a gap of nearly seven years”, Bailey said.
The experience of the Gardai and the PSNI in the search for the disappeared from the troubles, has given these forces an expertise in searching for missing bodies and lost evidence.
“ We know from the disappeared that even when there are tip offs about the locations from those who actually, perpetrated the crimes then it is still very hard to find the bodies so this seems a very unrealistic and overly ambitious search by the Metropolitan Police", he said.
Despite indications of a breakthrough in the case, it is quite clear that the use of spades, pitch forks and some ground penetrating radar across three sites, one of which is over 15 acres, can only suggest that the Police are looking for a needle in a haystack.
One source close to the new investigators spoke of the concern among the team that the Met has made very little breakthrough despite the investment of more than 30 full time officers and nearly €10m in the investigation which was kick started last July after the intervention of the British Prime Minister.
Police sources say that search locations have been pinpointed by geographic crime profilers.
The sites were based on the distance that a child could have walked from
apartment 5a
where she disappeared from, or the distance where she could have been carried by a predator, and then perhaps abused or killed.
The investigators will be looking for either a piece of clothing or a body.
This line of enquiry suggests that the new investigators are unhappy with the quality of the original search but also that the new investigators, along with the original Portuguese Police team, believe that Maddie is no longer alive.
The McCann’s have long ignored this possibility understandably, but statistically; victims of child abductions are likely to be killed within days of kidnap.
“Victims of child abductions statistically are unlikely to survive the first 48 hours and the younger they are the more likely they are to be killed earlier. Those rare cases where abductees survive to be sex slaves are typically much, much older”, Professor David Wilson told the Sunday World.
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[PeterMac]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:
Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Short answer
No
fingerprints are a print left by a mixture of sweat and natural body fats, sebum and so on.
So they wash off, or get eaten by bacteria.

[whatliesbehindthesofa]

Throwing a question out to PeterMac:
Could fingerprints be detected on a surface such as a corrugated iron sheet, after 7 years in the environment of Praia da Luz?

Short answer
No
fingerprints are a print left by a mixture of sweat and natural body fats, sebum and so on.
So they wash off, or get eaten by bacteria.

Thanks PM, it was just a faint hope.

[wicksy]

Does anyone remember a poster on the 3As who had a particular interest in the drains and tunnels in PdL? I think it was a woman, and she visited PdL to check out some of her theories. Can't remember the name.

Wicksy - it is Johanna, the blogger (Unterdentepich) who had this interest and has just posted some pictures of the drains/tunnels on MCF.
Her view is that this area was the first resting place, not where a body is likely to be found.

Thanks, alison. Yes, I remember the theory was that it was an initial hiding place. Maybe a drain which allows water to run off into the sea during heavy rainfall. I think she used a different name before. Harmony?

I can't retrieve my login details for MCF, and I've tried to join again but my membership hasn't been activated. :-(

[riskybuisness]

Does anyone remember a poster on the 3As who had a particular interest in the drains and tunnels in PdL? I think it was a woman, and she visited PdL to check out some of her theories. Can't remember the name.

Wicksy - it is Johanna, the blogger (Unterdentepich) who had this interest and has just posted some pictures of the drains/tunnels on MCF.
Her view is that this area was the first resting place, not where a body is likely to be found.

Thanks, alison. Yes, I remember the theory was that it was an initial hiding place. Maybe a drain which allows water to run off into the sea during heavy rainfall. I think she used a different name before. Harmony?

I can't retrieve my login details for MCF, and I've tried to join again but my membership hasn't been activated. :-(

Was that the same person who had sister that was a reporter.  I believe she was one of the first to actually go to Praia and film the walk from the apartment to the tapas bar and post it on  the 3A site.  If not who was that and do they now still post anywhere? I cannot find my old username for this site and the MCF site (have now changed email provider so I cannot get on to MCF and had to register to get back on here).