Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by ChippyM 07.05.14 13:49

Praia wrote:Hi ChippyM, they were given plants as gifts, say I trying to be fair, I doubt they would be so careless as to bury something knowing the gardener came regularly.

Thanks, I didn't know that. If that's the case it does strike me as a little odd that people would buy you pot plants as a gift to cheer you up when your daughter was missing ..why would anyone think a gift that needs care and that you couldn't take back home would be anything but a hassle? .knowing that you wouldn't be able to keep them and then you plant them in a garden of a rented house. ....and gardners don't dig very deep on a regular basis. That's me probably being totally unfair and biased big grin

by whatliesbehindthesofa 07.05.14 13:50

Praia wrote:Sorry, try the person who stored the Senic after they left.

This person?

'The return of the car to the rental agency, was done at the agency's offices on 23-09-2007 by a Caucasian individual, who appeared there alone, speaking English, about 1.80 cm tall, with short grey hair, about 60-65 years old, who signed the delivery document for the return of the car, but whose signature is illegible.'

by tiny 07.05.14 13:51

would that be gerraty(sp)

by beijos 07.05.14 14:00

margaret wrote:Thanks for all those photo beijos, plenty of tombs above ground to hide something, although l would imagine they are sealed somehow.

No problem.

Not that I've seen it done, but sometimes they also simply cover the body with dirt above ground too.

I think, with the Algarve climate, that its impossible to manually dig any type of hole for that time of year. IF, she is somewhere nearby, then the cemetery would be the most logical place. If they're to take their ground penetrating radar anywhere, then they should be looking for double bodies in the crypts and graves.

Also, as Praia, said before, I doubt they'd find anything in the waste ground marked on the map. It's well worn, open and next to the main town carpark. Not that, there'd be many coming and goings for that time of the year.

beijos

by Praia 07.05.14 14:01

Yes, a man with many useful connections.

This is purely my imagination running wild you understand but if you were to run or climb up Rocha Negra you would find where Boavista backs onto the cliffs, a very overgrown area, a perfect place to meet someone quietly to chat or hand over items perhaps new mobiles. You jog bank down, they return to their walk around the golf course.....

Dr Amaral was most interested in this prospect. All IMO.

by Doug D 07.05.14 14:02

Joana has posted this translation of a Jornal de Noticias article from today.

I don’t think it’s been posted here already & it’s nice to see they are going to use ‘better’ dogs!?!!!!!?

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Analysis of sites where Maddie might still be buried without a set date.

Searches to the homes of former Ocean Club employees in Praia da Luz were some of the steps requested by British police and rejected by the Portuguese authorities as unfounded.

by Marisa Rodrigues

The judge to whom the requests were sent, contained in the letters rogatory, did not consider valid the arguments used by Scotland Yard. The [English] detectives wanted the Judiciary Police (PJ) to do house searches to people [simply] because they worked at the resort at the time when Madeleine disappeared, which made them “persons of interest”.

Another treatment was given to the requests for searches and excavations, using dogs and a georadar as resources, which were accepted, as JN disclosed yesterday. The Public Prosecutor from Portimão, which holds the responsibility of analysing the formal requests for judicial cooperation, gave the green light to these steps - a turning point in the British investigation, with Scotland Yard assuming for the first time the hypothesis that Madeleine is dead.

The sites were chosen for being prone to the disposal of a body. JN knows that this is the key argument used by Scotland Yard to substantiate the request for searches. The places are near to the apartment where the McCann family was staying during their holidays, in the beach and in a road which at the time was undergoing repairs. Another of the requests is for a georadar to be used in order to analyse and drill the soil and two dogs which alert to the presence of cadavers. Resources that Scotland Yard wants to bring from the UK. In case a deformation on the ground is detected there is a green light to proceed with the excavations. This is a process that could drag on for some time if the relevant places to be excavated belong to private owners or to State-owned road operators.

The next step is to define the operational strategy and set the date of the proceedings, tasks which are incumbent on the South Directorate of the PJ, responsible for carrying out the steps authorized by the prosecutor. The National Directorate of the PJ has to decide if the British detectives and experts can closely follow the actions that will always be performed by the Portuguese inspectors since Scotland Yard has no authority to act in Portugal. JN found that such a request was addressed to the Attorney General's Office and communicated informally to the Judiciary Police but for it to be appreciated, it must be formalized with the National Director of the PJ, which has not happened yet.

Sniffer Dogs

Scotland Yard regards the dogs that they want to use in the searches as “better” than Eddie and Keela, the sniffer dogs who alerted to blood and cadaver odour in the McCanns car and apartment at the Ocean Club resort.

Joint Investigation

Scotland Yard and Madeleine's parents argue that the constitution of a joint investigation team would accelerate the discovery of Madeleine and have criticized the “excessive bureaucracy” of the letters rogatory*.

The logistics required to implement these new endeavours are costly. JN knows they will be supported by the UK, which has already spent around EUR 7 million with this investigation.

by **PeterMac** 07.05.14 14:08

This is an email from a long time resident ex-pat in PdL. One of our regular informants actually,- through me.

redacted and snipped to maintain his anonymity. The references are to the Daily Mail photo

Hi Guys,
Here we go again! Peter, your surmise that the degree of difficulty of digging these sites indicates that they are a spoof is highly likely. Please note the following notes on each site:

1. This site was earmarked for development by Oceanico group and was partly surrounded by hoarding in 2007, but access was still possible in places. It is now surrounded by a high wire fence (from c.2009) and now more or less impenetrable. Oceanico got into difficulties (Anglo-Irish Bank fiasco) and the development was abandoned in 2011. Most of the site is hard bed rock limestone, but some soil to a shallow depth does exist in places, but you would need daylight to see where they are.

2. The southern portion (about 1/3 of area) was a single spare plot in 2007 owned by the Lagos Camara, but in 2009 was made over to the Catholic church for construction of a church 'meeting house' which covers virtually the whole area. Construction necessitated massive stone and earth moving equipment (2012/13) to dig down most of the area to a depth of 2 to 3 metres. No bodies were found!
The northern portion (2/3 of area) was developed into a car park during 2007-2009. By the time of Madeleine's disappearance, the whole are was being mechanically scoured and then levelled. I was involved in an archeological dig at the park entrance during 2008. Needless to say we found no bodies.

3. The area to the south of the church is covered with limestone bedrock. Nevertheless, some excavation work to make an overspill car park was possible using heavy equipment by the part owner of Forteleza da Luz (the other owner of the eastern strip is again the camara of Lagos).

To reiterate your point about the sites being a 'diversion', none of these sites is on a beach as was widely reported, but may be under consideration. However, as you will know the tide has turned many times over the years and much sand displaced- still no bodies!

In conclusion, we seem to be returning to the earlier reported farce of the three burglars equipped with a magic anesthetic, this time with JCBs. What can I say?
Best regards as ever,

Which seems to sum it up, Mitchell. You are a cretin.

by Snifferdog 07.05.14 14:09

ChippyM wrote:
Andrew77R wrote:
russiandoll wrote:

If this is the establishment in charge, 2 doctors and their friends are small fry, aren't they?
They are not small fry if they have potential inside information regarding certain 'P' rings that lead back to the establishment. IMO that has to be at the forefront of this cover up (until now anyway).

David Payne as GA has stated could be the 'key' to a lot of this.

Maybe David Payne's use of the word 'Pact' included certain members of the establishment.

All IMO of course.

That's my theory too, we also have the creepy photos by John Corner and reports that there was film equipment at a rented house in the area. IMO it's not who the McCanns know but what they might be connected to however convoluted.

My thoughts too. There seems to be no other way to explain the unbelievable antics being played out. All directly and indirectly involved by shared interests are Stuck between a rock and a hard place. As mentioned by other posters here before, the internet was in its infancy, so no one imagined that people would be scrutinizing this case to the degree it has been up till now. Remember the Leveson inquiry. Fortunately that attempt to muzzle people Failed.

by suzyjohnson 07.05.14 14:10

PeterMac wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
suzyjohnson wrote:If the piece of waste ground (pictured in the Daily Mail) wasn't fenced in at the time of Madeleine's disappearance then it's possible that the man seen by the Smiths could have crossed this ground on his way from apartment 5A to the beach?

And spent how long digging a grave? It's not even remotely a runner in my view.
It was fenced.
The ground is extremely hard, compacted after years of neglect.
You would need a JCB to break it
And the "Abductor now has to complete a new series of tasks in the time allowed, in full view of anyone in the village . . ?
I am more interested in the two places outside the town, but doubt we shall be told where they are.

Yes I understand that, I just wondered if their interest in this area was due to Smithman in particular

by tasprin 07.05.14 14:11

MarcoG wrote:So, this Martin Brunt reporting that SY had been denied search warrants for the homes of the three burglars. Is he speculating that? Is there any other source for the content of denied requests? It seems codswallop, an English expression I've learned right here at the forum.

Operation Grange is either leaking information directly to the media OR leaking to the McCanns (AKA keeping the parents informed) and TM (Mcanns/Mitchell) are feeding the media. The media report the leaks in a way that is clearly designed to influence the public against the PJ/Portugal, i.e. PJ denies requests to 'help' SY - but I'd dearly love to see the response from the UK if the PJ had requested warrants to search the Tapas 9 homes, or the homes of any other British nationals for that matter. Mark Rowley said, "He [senior PJ officer] has been clear with me that if we provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal, activity will cease until that problem dissipates". Well, Scotland Yard's Op Grange are leaking information right under his nose. How else would Martin Brunt know SY were denied search warrants? I wouldn't be at all surprised if all the ridiculous stories in the past few months have come directly from Scotland Yard (in collaboration with Team McCann)

by Guest 07.05.14 14:12

It is interesting to see what's being reported in English in the Portugeuse press.

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by tiny 07.05.14 14:14

I think that's where we will have to get any news from now,cant believe any thing in the English newspapers

by Praia 07.05.14 14:16

I was at the cemetery yesterday and digging was going on, just landscaping I hasten to add, but you need machines not spades.

The railings must be 10 feet tall and even with an area of rubble to help climb over it's too risky. Even in the nights earlier that week, the Portuguese really care about the cemeteries and would not shrug off any glimpses of intruders.Also families visit the graves regularly, many weekly so disturbances would be noticed. There are also the caretakers and gardeners to consider.

by **PeterMac** 07.05.14 14:20

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by Woofer 07.05.14 14:27

MILLIE wrote:It is interesting to see what's being reported in English in the Portugeuse press.

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Thanks Millie - wish our press had the balls to publish something similar -

" A little more than a day after UK tabloids suggested earth-diggers would be “everywhere” in a heightened police search for Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz, Sky News has reported that it is “unlikely” that high-profile excavations will take place during the busy tourist season.

Reporter Martin Brunt said it was much more probable that ground penetrating radar equipment would be used, and in a way that “would not be obvious” to passers-by.

The update comes as Portuguese police are reported to have sanctioned the Met's request for searches 'on the ground' and in stark contrast to reports in the Daily Mail and Daily Mirror - both of which suggested the holiday village would soon be turned upside down by fleets of JCB earth-movers “looking for clues” .

The Daily Mail claimed excavations would “not specifically be looking for a body” but more “hoping to rule out possible scenarios”.

Areas involved could include scrubland near the primary school - alongside which an Irish family are reported to have passed a man carrying a child on the night Madeleine was reported missing - and a road leading down from the Ocean Club complex, which was being dug up for new pipework when the McCanns first arrived on holiday.

Residents following this fast-developing story are intrigued. Said a former policeman: “Bearing in mind it is extremely difficult to bury a body at short notice in hard ground, this suggests that police are looking for something buried before May 3.

“Once Madeleine was reported missing, the village was crawling with journalists and search teams for weeks. No one could have buried anything.”

A former RAF navigator who has been following the story since 2007 added: “This certainly seems to have knocked the abduction theory into the long grass.

“We’ve had so many people suspected of abducting the child, but none of them were thought to have been in the possession of heavy-duty earth-digging equipment when they did so.”

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by Woofer 07.05.14 14:29

Praia wrote:I was at the cemetery yesterday and digging was going on, just landscaping I hasten to add, but you need machines not spades.

The railings must be 10 feet tall and even with an area of rubble to help climb over it's too risky. Even in the nights earlier that week, the Portuguese really care about the cemeteries and would not shrug off any glimpses of intruders.Also families visit the graves regularly, many weekly so disturbances would be noticed. There are also the caretakers and gardeners to consider.

Hi Praia - good to know you`re still keeping an eye on things for us dance

by Guest 07.05.14 14:33

jeanmonroe wrote:
MarleneP wrote:Ok, the body was stored in the Waste Ground. Smithman brought it down to the sea where someone was waiting with a boat.

A slightly different 'theory'

"ok, the 'body' was stored in the waste ground (JW?). DP and GM, 'went out again' at 4:00am, 4th May 2007, and brought it down to the sea where 'someone' was waiting with a boat"

BTW, Mr McCann dosen't mind me suggesting 'theories'

Weren't there two intrepid doctors who went out on a catamaran, one of which doctors apparently fell overboard and had to be rescued by his mate?

What, if a little bairn, duely weighted down, accompanied them on this almost fatal mission?

by Guest 07.05.14 14:35

PeterMac wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

'Mr Redwood - Just jump in there will you before i fill it back up. Cheers'

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by mariola 07.05.14 14:38

Cristobell,GM the last person to have seen MBM alive, has no alibi for the afternoon of 3rd may 2007.Additionally he and his friend DP have given conflicting accounts of what they were doing that day.Furthermore a fellow doctor(GASPART) has made allegations of a lewd and libidinous nature concerning these two men and MBM.
Why delete my last post?Fair comment surely. Res Ipsa Loquitur as they say in Govan.

by Guest 07.05.14 14:44

NickE wrote:Letter from AC Mark Rowley re Op Grange

07 May 2014

action in Portugal on the basis of MPS 'International letters of request'. Whilst the process is more bureaucratic and slower than we would wish, you will recall at recent briefings that DAC Martin Hewitt has said that we were increasingly optimistic of that activity starting soon.

I am writing because I now believe that activity will occur in forthcoming weeks. You will understand that our requests for action in Portugal lead to investigative steps taking place under Portuguese law. In this context I have been discussing with my opposite number in the Policia Judiciara the high levels of interest that the action (especially when some of it will take place in public) will generate in the British media. I have discussed with him that it is our usual and preferred practice in this case to brief the media on an ongoing basis on such cases as that usually ensures that the activity of reporters and the coverage assists rather than damages the investigation.

These briefings, as you would appreciate, do not give complete detail on what the activity is, (as this could compromise what we are trying to achieve), but do provide context and as much information as possible whilst still protecting the investigation.

The advice I am receiving from Portugal is that their approach is very different and they do not brief the media on current investigations. He has been clear with me that if we provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal, activity will cease until that problem dissipates.

It is important you understand this and appreciate the position in which I find myself. We will not be able to provide any information concerning the activity because ultimately it could mean the work stops. We respect the Portuguese position as we would expect them to respect our position if we were carrying out work on their behalf in the UK.

The most important task for me is to build momentum and protect our investigation given the many lines of enquiry that we see are necessary in order that we can do everything possible to solve the case. I ask that you support me and my team in those efforts. This includes respecting the requests of the Portuguese authorities during the work they will be carrying out on our behalf.

As well as being aware of the dangers of disrupting the work of the Portuguese, I would also ask you to think carefully about the information you decide to put into the public domain. Although we will continue not to comment on specific information, I would ask you to think twice about what impact that information or speculation might have on the investigation if it is published or broadcast.

We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

Collectively we all need to think carefully about our actions in this case.

Yours sincerely

Mark Rowley

A very stark warning:

MBM: hold your horses or:
a. the Portuguese will cease cooperating with us;
b. the Mecs will be provided with the defense they cannot have a fair trial, and walk scot free

In essence, this is what Rowley is saying, 'gagging' the MBM, an unprecedented step, surely!

by **Nina** 07.05.14 14:49

Portia wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:
MarleneP wrote:Ok, the body was stored in the Waste Ground. Smithman brought it down to the sea where someone was waiting with a boat.

A slightly different 'theory'

"ok, the 'body' was stored in the waste ground (JW?). DP and GM, 'went out again' at 4:00am, 4th May 2007, and brought it down to the sea where 'someone' was waiting with a boat"

BTW, Mr McCann dosen't mind me suggesting 'theories'
Weren't there two intrepid doctors who went out on a catamaran, one of which doctors apparently fell overboard and had to be rescued by his mate?

What, if a little bairn, duely weighted down, accompanied them on this almost fatal mission?

Yes and one of them injured his wrist.

by Guest 07.05.14 14:53

Portia wrote:

Weren't there two intrepid doctors who went out on a catamaran, one of which doctors apparently fell overboard and had to be rescued by his mate?

Not come across this before i don't think.

Do you have a link please...

Thanks.

by Dr What 07.05.14 14:54

I have a sinking feeling that the McCanns and Carter Ruck will not mind all this media 'frenzy'.In fact, I expect they would secretly like more lurid headlines and in the absence of any hard information, that is exactly what is likely to happen.

After the pay-out the McCanns got a few years back, rather too easily in my opinion,, the warning from the Met to be 'careful what you write', is a good warning.The prospect of another pay-out would send most of us over the edge
of the near-by cliffs.

In addition, we have already judged, undertaking a do-it-yourself burial in and around PDL would be very difficult and risky.However, if a body had been disposed of farther afield, the perpetrator[s] would be delighted to see all this 'activity' in PDL.Better the 'activity' there than elsewhere.In fact, a perpetrator would positively encourage the digging there. Throw in the possibility of another libel pay-out and it will be job done.

by Cristobell 07.05.14 14:57

mariola wrote:Cristobell,GM the last person to have seen MBM alive, has no alibi for the afternoon of 3rd may 2007.Additionally he and his friend DP have given conflicting accounts of what they were doing that day.Furthermore a fellow doctor(GASPART) has made allegations of a lewd and libidinous nature concerning these two men and MBM.
Why delete my last post?Fair comment surely. Res Ipsa Loquitur as they say in Govan.

Hi Mariola, I don't have the power to delete anything! Not sure what you mean?

Yes, I agree, they are probably looking very carefully at the phone pings from the Thursday. The rest of the Tapas group met up at the beach on that Thursday afternoon, so are alibis for each other.

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 14:57

Praia wrote:Yes, a man with many useful connections.

This is purely my imagination running wild you understand but if you were to run or climb up Rocha Negra you would find where Boavista backs onto the cliffs, a very overgrown area, a perfect place to meet someone quietly to chat or hand over items perhaps new mobiles. You jog bank down, they return to their walk around the golf course.....

Dr Amaral was most interested in this prospect. All IMO.

A disused sand bunker would be good for a while. That area sounds very interesting, especially with the golf links... Gerry has many links to golfers in this area through Rothley Park Golf Club - and the day before there is a theory that Gerry met with RM at golf club (both turned off mobiles at same time etc ).

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 15:00

Everyone seems divided again as to whether this 'digging' expedition is part of whitewash or based on pursuit of truth. I am well and truly on the fence. Seems such a farce yet there is something about AR's face..

by **PeterMac** 07.05.14 15:00

Dr What wrote:However, if a body had been disposed of farther afield, the perpetrator[s] would be delighted to see all this 'activity' in PDL..

Assuming
1 That this present load of absolute tosh bears any resemblance to what is actually going to happen.
2 That they do not already know of at least one good probable disposal site "further afield", which has been in the public domain for the past 7 years. In fact they do, because they have been reminded of it recently.

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 15:02

PeterMac wrote:
Dr What wrote:However, if a body had been disposed of farther afield, the perpetrator[s] would be delighted to see all this 'activity' in PDL..
Assuming
1 That this present load of absolute tosh bears any resemblance to what is actually going to happen.
2 That they do not already know of at least one good probable disposal site "further afield", which has been in the public domain for the past 7 years. In fact they do, because they have been reminded of it recently.

I guess it depends on what instructions they have been given - what they are allowed to know and allowed to do and allowed to find - who is at the top of this -giving the instructions ? I mean, really at the top?

by **Nina** 07.05.14 15:05

PeterMac wrote:
Dr What wrote:However, if a body had been disposed of farther afield, the perpetrator[s] would be delighted to see all this 'activity' in PDL..
Assuming
1 That this present load of absolute tosh bears any resemblance to what is actually going to happen.
2 That they do not already know of at least one good probable disposal site "further afield", which has been in the public domain for the past 7 years. In fact they do, because they have been reminded of it recently.

Oooohhhhh PeterMac, you are a tease yes

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 15:12

Nina wrote:
Portia wrote:
jeanmonroe wrote:
MarleneP wrote:Ok, the body was stored in the Waste Ground. Smithman brought it down to the sea where someone was waiting with a boat.

A slightly different 'theory'

"ok, the 'body' was stored in the waste ground (JW?). DP and GM, 'went out again' at 4:00am, 4th May 2007, and brought it down to the sea where 'someone' was waiting with a boat"

BTW, Mr McCann dosen't mind me suggesting 'theories'
Weren't there two intrepid doctors who went out on a catamaran, one of which doctors apparently fell overboard and had to be rescued by his mate?

What, if a little bairn, duely weighted down, accompanied them on this almost fatal mission?
Yes and one of them injured his wrist.

Really? They weren't at all lucky on this weeks holiday..
Achilles tendon
Injured wrist
Sickness
Tummy upset
Child dies

I might have to start a new thread to examine injuries and sickness experienced - hey but at least there were some doctors present capable of resuscitation (according to Mampilly)