Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by TheTruthWillOut 06.05.14 0:21

To be fair the last line of the Portugal News article is still encouraging:

Scotland Yard were not immediately for comment on the refusal of some their requests, which are believed to total no fewer than 278.

There are still dozens of requests granted.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 0:59

I have a couple of related thoughts on this matter.

The first - if Maddie's body was frozen and then later buried, and she died before the 3rd, why wasn't the body immediately buried before the world's media were informed? Why freeze it, and then clandestinely move it in a hire car to bury it, when immediately burying the body out in the middle of nowhere when you have plenty of opportunity would be much less risky? Freezing the body only makes sense to me if they didn't have the chance to bury it earlier.

The second - when Kate says that she goes to PdL to be "close to Maddie", is she stupid enough to visit her grave (if that is where it is)? Have her movements in Portugal been monitored by the PJ?

I really do hope that it's true that the PJ will be doing these excavations. It seems highly odd to me for the McCann PR machine to draw attention to these digs, if they are real.

by Okeydokey 06.05.14 1:12

"Digs mean dogs" I think we might say in as much as it immediately focuses attention on the question why are NSY ignoring the evidence of the dogs (given it is certainly a lot more reliable than all the eyewitness evidence they've been relying on - eyewitnesses being notoriously unreliable)?

Sounds like some sort of damage limitation by Team McCann...

Is this all linked to the libel trial? Have the McCanns "cried uncle" because they became aware the Met Police are now talking in terms of a death being most likely. If so they could go to the court and spin it as they honestly had no reason before now to think MMcC was dead...but this latest info changes the picture. Pure speculation. But the lack of news on the libel trial is equally odd as this new narrative.

by rainbow-fairy 06.05.14 1:12

Thinking out loud...
If this dig goes ahead, as it seems to be, is it an evidence/information based excavation?
If not, what will they hope to achieve?
If they dig the sites and find no body, what does that prove?

-It doesn't mean Maddie is alive
-It doesn't clear the McCanns
-It doesn't rule anybody else out or in
All it could possibly prove is that she wasn't found where they dug the holes? (Stating the obvious, but...)

OTOH
IF a body is found - I agree with PM - K+G are toast.

Would they really go to the expense and trouble of digging random holes just to prove absolutely nothing? Logic would state these chosen sites have some significance intelligence-wise? (Mind, I'll happily admit logic isn't my strong point especially at 1am laughat

)

by notlongnow 06.05.14 1:20

rainbow-fairy wrote:Thinking out loud...
If this dig goes ahead, as it seems to be, is it an evidence/information based excavation?
If not, what will they hope to achieve?
If they dig the sites and find no body, what does that prove?

-It doesn't mean Maddie is alive
-It doesn't clear the McCanns
-It doesn't rule anybody else out or in
All it could possibly prove is that she wasn't found where they dug the holes? (Stating the obvious, but...)

OTOH
IF a body is found - I agree with PM - K+G are toast.

Would they really go to the expense and trouble of digging random holes just to prove absolutely nothing? Logic would state these chosen sites have some significance intelligence-wise? (Mind, I'll happily admit logic isn't my strong point especially at 1am )

If they have no specific info they would be just as well to dig holes in Japan.
They must have been given some info or there was something in the files that has been overlooked.

I noticed there is not one mention in todays front pages,this has to be a good thing.

by sar 06.05.14 1:32

only just read GA's reference to the car, think he cites the rear right hand side as possible source for "material" leakage? Didn't someone here recently notice GM's reluctance to place something in the boot / trunk of the car on a certain side in the "wearing gloves / not wearing gloves" video? Furthermore, if some material did fall from the car onto the ground (could just be reading this wrongly) where is it, where was it analysed? Did the word "curb" mean kerb as we understand it in English usage? If so where was the kerb?

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 1:33

notlongnow wrote:
rainbow-fairy wrote:Thinking out loud...
If this dig goes ahead, as it seems to be, is it an evidence/information based excavation?
If not, what will they hope to achieve?
If they dig the sites and find no body, what does that prove?

-It doesn't mean Maddie is alive
-It doesn't clear the McCanns
-It doesn't rule anybody else out or in
All it could possibly prove is that she wasn't found where they dug the holes? (Stating the obvious, but...)

OTOH
IF a body is found - I agree with PM - K+G are toast.

Would they really go to the expense and trouble of digging random holes just to prove absolutely nothing? Logic would state these chosen sites have some significance intelligence-wise? (Mind, I'll happily admit logic isn't my strong point especially at 1am )
If they have no specific info they would be just as well to dig holes in Japan.
They must have been given some info or there was something in the files that has been overlooked.

I noticed there is not one mention in todays front pages,this has to be a good thing.

The recent media spin to deliver the message that Maddy might well be dead, and that the McCanns need to 'put an end to not knowing', suggests to me that the dig locations might be based on solid information.

I'm not going to beat about the bush here - it is my opinion that the McCanns know that Maddie is dead, that they know where she is buried, and that she is buried close to Praia da Luz. If all of that is true, then they know whether or not these digs are a threat to them. They must be a threat surely, otherwise what was the point of all the recent media activity? They must have some reason to suspect that the PJ could be digging in the right place.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 06.05.14 1:55

This sentence really does it for me:

'Kate McCann: Although I don’t know where Madeleine is that is the last place that, you know, I saw her, held her, and I guess there’s a part of me that still feels connected to her there so.'

There seems to be no good reason to connect the place where Madeleine currently is, to the last place that Kate saw her, unless the last place where she saw her is in fact the place where she currently is. 'Although I don't know where Madeleine is' has no place in this sentence.

ETA - oops, this was meant to be on the 'Forensic Linguistics' thread. However, it's just as relevant here.

by Okeydokey 06.05.14 2:01

sar wrote:only just read GA's reference to the car, think he cites the rear right hand side as possible source for "material" leakage? Didn't someone here recently notice GM's reluctance to place something in the boot / trunk of the car on a certain side in the "wearing gloves / not wearing gloves" video? Furthermore, if some material did fall from the car onto the ground (could just be reading this wrongly) where is it, where was it analysed? Did the word "curb" mean kerb as we understand it in English usage? If so where was the kerb?

Any link to the video?

by canada12 06.05.14 2:18

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:I have a couple of related thoughts on this matter.

The first - if Maddie's body was frozen and then later buried, and she died before the 3rd, why wasn't the body immediately buried before the world's media were informed? Why freeze it, and then clandestinely move it in a hire car to bury it, when immediately burying the body out in the middle of nowhere when you have plenty of opportunity would be much less risky? Freezing the body only makes sense to me if they didn't have the chance to bury it earlier.

The second - when Kate says that she goes to PdL to be "close to Maddie", is she stupid enough to visit her grave (if that is where it is)? Have her movements in Portugal been monitored by the PJ?

I really do hope that it's true that the PJ will be doing these excavations. It seems highly odd to me for the McCann PR machine to draw attention to these digs, if they are real.

I think, to answer the first point - why would they freeze Madeleine's body and bury her later if she'd died earlier? To buy some time. Because if she'd died earlier, there needed to be time to come up with a cover story, to plan it, and to make sure it was going to work. And also to make sure her absence would not be noticed in the creche. It's possible also that there wasn't an opportunity to dispose of her body in a "safe" manner earlier. They needed, IMO, distractions and cover stories, and the cooperation of others.

I do wonder if Kate was stupid enough to believe she wasn't followed and observed when she "quietly visited PDL" on all those occasions she claims to have been there. If the McCanns believed SY was on their side and they truly weren't being considered as suspects, they may have been lulled into a false sense of security and let their guard down. Which may be what SY had planned all along. IMO.

by Watching 06.05.14 3:15

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6 MAY 2014 | POSTED BY [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Request was in the latest letter rogatory sent by the British authorities

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[size][color][font]
In the Madeleine McCann case the Attorney General's Office [[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]] has agreed to the request from the British police for searches and excavations to be done in Praia da Luz. The request appears in the latest letter rogatory.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] transcript

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (voice over)

It's the most important of the steps that were requested in the third rogatory letter. The British police want the searches to be carried out on sites in Praia da Luz where they suspect Madeleine's body might be buried. Searches will be made with a radar that will allow the analysis below ground.

In the locations map there are areas signalled near the apartment where the child disappeared 7 years ago and a road, which at the time was undergoing repairs. This are the places that the English detectives argue the PJ did not explore thoroughly.

This letter rogatory, like the preceding ones, has been assessed by the Public Prosecutor of Portimão.

TVI knows that the searches, which already foresee the possibility of excavations, were already authorized by the prosecutor. What remains now is to set the dates and how they will be performed.

The British police also asked to be present at the time that those actions are carried out by the Portuguese inspectors, but that decision lies with the National Direction of the PJ and has not yet been taken.

Last March the Metropolitan Police announced they were looking for a sexual predator, connected to the abduction theory, which they have always advocated.

With this new path and although it is not officially confirmed, they are admitting, for the first time the possibility of Madeleine being dead.[/font][/color][/size]

by Watching 06.05.14 3:20

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] » [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] » Judge refuses ‘a number’ of formal requests by Scotland Yard in search for Madeleine
Judge refuses ‘a number’ of formal requests by Scotland Yard in search for Madeleine
BY BRENDAN DE BEER, IN [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] · 05-05-2014 21:55:00 ·

A Portuguese police source has told The Portugal News that some requests by Scotland Yard detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have been “rejected due to a total lack of foundation.”

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The ruling was made by a Portuguese criminal judge tasked with issuing search warrants applied for by the Metropolitan Police Service in the third and latest international letter of request sent to Lisbon earlier this year.

The police source stressed that contrary to latest newspaper reports both in Britain and Portugal, no digging has been scheduled with regards to the investigation.

A report in this Tuesday's Jornal de Notícias has however revealed that the Attorney-General's office has authorised digging in Praia da Luz, but said no date for these operations had been set.

But he reasoned that “if they are planning excavations, it means that they are looking for a body.”

As for reports that the digging could also serve to rule out the possibility that Madeleine is not alive, he questioned: “How many holes do you have to dig to rule out the existence of a body?”

He continued: “Why does the Metropolitan Police Service want to dig up holes if they believe Madeleine is still alive? How do you prove that somebody is alive by digging up holes?”

The police source reaffirmed an earlier position that the case was re-opened by Portuguese authorities to investigate a series of sexual assaults on children in the Algarve between 2004 and 2010.

“This was not uniquely to investigate Euclides Monteiro”, he explained, referring to the Cape Verdean national who died in a tractor accident on a golf course in Lagos, near Luz, back in 2009.

The source stressed: “All scenarios remain open.”

As for the modus operandi used by British detectives since the multi-million pound investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, codenamed Operation Grange, was signed off by Prime Minister David Cameron, the police source admitted: “Sincerely, it is not easy to understand them. But I’m sure they know what they are doing.”

He further questioned whether these latest revelations “which come after the anniversary of Madeleine McCann, have anything to do with the European elections and the need for the Metropolitan Police Service to prove to those who created this team that they have made some progress?”

Regarding the tactics employed by Portuguese police, he said: “We are completely committed to finding out what happened to Madeleine McCann. Our approach is humble and very honest. We have a complete notion of the difficulty and the importance this investigation has to all concerned and the need to obtain results. We are firmly committed to discover what happened. However, there are completely different ways of approaching the investigation. We prefer to talk less and do more.”

Scotland Yard were not immediately for comment on the refusal of some their requests, which are believed to total no fewer than 278.[/font][/color]

by **PeterMac** 06.05.14 7:26

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:I have a couple of related thoughts on this matter.

The first - if Maddie's body was frozen and then later buried, and she died before the 3rd, why wasn't the body immediately buried before the world's media were informed? Why freeze it, and then clandestinely move it in a hire car to bury it, when immediately burying the body out in the middle of nowhere when you have plenty of opportunity would be much less risky? Freezing the body only makes sense to me if they didn't have the chance to bury it earlier.

I think that is correct.
They didn't have time.
to dig a proper grave takes a long time - and a decent spade, and possibly a pickaxe depending on the ground. 2 hours is not unusual, even for a 'shallow grave", and it is extremely hard work.
You have to go down at least 3 spits (spade blade lengths)

Burying it in the middle of nowhere is also difficult, since you have to get there, with all the equipment.
Most bodies are discovered less than 20 feet from a path or a road.
You may also be seen by someone.
And they didn't have their own car, so they would have to borrow, cadge a lift, or take a taxi

It is interesting that this latest McStory fits my preferred purported scenario better than anything so far

by **tigger** 06.05.14 7:37

So they'll be using near surface geophysics, for which they must hire an expert in the field.

GPR will work well on dry and rocky surfaces - once again these are only going to record anomalies, not an X-ray image of a body.

In sand it's harder to get results with Ground Penetrating Radar. I could hunt out a paper which deals with trying to locate bodies on the west coast of Scotland which the IRA buried there. Keele University - did a pilot study in 2010 where GPR worked well at certain frequencies.

SY should consult with the Cranfield Institute for this sort of thing, But I suspect that it's just a matter of show, men with machines, geophysics is rather fun, lots of colourful plots and plans on the computer.
Good move to entertain the taxpayers whilst the Libel trial enters the closing stages. nah

by NickE 06.05.14 8:07

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Cães vão procurar corpo de Maddie

Ministério Público autoriza buscas para procurar o corpo da criança inglesa na Praia da Luz.

Por:Tânia Laranjo

O Ministério Público de Portimão autorizou a polícia inglesa a fazer buscas num terreno baldio, junto ao Ocean Club, na Praia da Luz, Algarve, onde agora os investigadores defendem que o corpo de Madeleine pode ter sido enterrado.

A equipa que continua a investigar o desaparecimento de Madeleine McCann já tinha feito outros pedidos que foram recusados. Pediu agora que fossem feitas buscas em terrenos baldios junto ao apartamento onde a menina desapareceu a 4 de maio de 2007 e que fossem autorizadas as escavações. Para já só as buscas estão autorizadas. Os ingleses prometem utilizar equipamento especial, como sondas que ajudam a encontrar cadáveres, e cães que cheiram o rasto da morte.

"A questão é saber se os pedidos são feitos com base em suspeitas concretas ou apenas porque sim. Os ingleses não têm fundamentado os pedidos, o que leva a que o tribunal já tenha recusado alguns", diz ao CM uma fonte próxima do processo. Outro dos problemas que terá sido levantado é que o referido terreno foi exaustivamente vistoriado após o desaparecimento da criança. Nas primeiras horas, após Kate dar o alerta para a ausência de Madeleine, as autoridades admitiam mesmo que a menor tivesse saído sozinha e estivesse perdida. A zona foi batida ao pormenor.

Caso o Ministério Público aceite a realização das escavações, as mesmas terão de ser feitas pela Polícia Judiciária. O inquérito, entretanto reaberto, continua na reserva daquela força policial, não tendo também a polícia inglesa autoridade para efetuar diligências em solo português.

O Correio da Manhã sabe que outras diligências de buscas foram recusadas pelo MP. O magistrado que tutela o inquérito alegou que teria de haver suspeitas consideradas fundadas, para as autoridades avançarem para o terreno.

by Watching The Detectives 06.05.14 8:38

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May have to look down page to see article

by Guest 06.05.14 8:44

Watching The Detectives wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

May have to look down page to see article

Can you translate the below link as well..... (i'm thick - unsure how to do it)

Apparently states that Cadaver dogs will be brought in...

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Cadaver dogs are going to search for Maddie's body (to be translated asap) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/caes-vao-procurar-corpo-de-maddie …

by tiny 06.05.14 9:01

dogs,

hope there as good as eddie and keela

by noddy100 06.05.14 9:06

Posts on twitter saying SY rushing phone data from 2 days before she disappeared

by Silver Shuffle 06.05.14 9:11

according to the translation (Google), it's about searching a vacant lot near to the appartment.

by ChippyM 06.05.14 9:12

The above article by Tania Laranjo ;

"The Public Ministry of Portimão authorized the British police to make searches a vacant lot next to the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz , Algarve , where researchers now argue that Madeleine 's body may have been buried . The team continues to investigate the disappearance of Madeleine McCann had already made other requests that were refused. Asked now that were done searches on wasteland next to the apartment where the girl disappeared on May 4, 2007 and were authorized excavations . For now only the searches are allowed .
The British promise to use special equipment such as probes to help find corpses and dogs that smell the trail of death . " The question is whether the claims are made based on specific suspicions or just because. Englishmen have not substantiated the claims , which means that the court has already refused some ," says a source close to the CM process . Another of the problems that have been raised is that the said land was thoroughly inspected after the child's disappearance . In the first hours after Kate give warning to the absence of Madeleine , the authorities admitted that even the smallest had gone out alone and was lost . The area was hit to detail . If the prosecutor accepts the completion of excavation , the same will have to be made by the Judicial Police . The investigation was reopened however , remains that the reserve police force , nor has the police English authority to make representations on Portuguese soil. The Morning Post knows what other measures of searches were rejected by the MP . The magistrate who oversees the survey claimed that there would have to be well founded suspicion for authorities to advance the plot ."

So is the dogs bit just speculation from the paper based on what kinds of equipment would generally be used in this situation or based on something they were told? If dogs are brought in, does that mean that all previous canine based evidence will be valid?

by ChippyM 06.05.14 9:15

noddy100 wrote:Posts on twitter saying SY rushing phone data from 2 days before she disappeared

2 days before! things are hotting up!

by russiandoll 06.05.14 9:17

Some months ago there was a criminology professor from the UK [ possibly David Wilson, usually quiet about the Maddie case but tweeting more recently] on TV speaking about how he taught his students about the MO of serial killers. Almost without exception iirc the victims were not concealed by burial, they were left where they were killed or disposed of soon afterwards and found quite close to the murder scene.

For those victims who were killed in a lesser crime gone wrong, the body was nearly always left at the scene after the criminal fled in panic.

If a body is discovered, and it can be ascertained that care has been taken with the choice of site and how it was placed in the ground, items discovered with it, I would say the Mcs are in very big trouble.

I do not understand how, given that the UK police do not have primacy in Portugal, SY will be overseeing any excavations. Surely the PJ will be in charge, even if the UK initiated the procedure?

by rainbow-fairy 06.05.14 9:21

tiny wrote:dogs, hope there as good as eddie and keela

Wouldn't get too excited, tiny - dogs are notoriously unreliable after all! winkwink

by ChippyM 06.05.14 9:22

I'm just being devil's advocate here but IF a body is found, would the Mc's really be in trouble? They could still argue their abduction theory as the body would be unlikely to reveal much at this stage......that is unless there is strong supporting evidence such as phone records, that ties them to the place where the body is found.

by Guest 06.05.14 9:30

Yes I agree with you ChippyM that the finding of a body would not by itself implicate any known person.

Any child who genuinely had been abducted by paedophiles is almost certainly to have met a grim fate.

by Guest 06.05.14 9:31

Watching wrote:

In the Madeleine McCann case the Attorney General's Office [[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]] has agreed to the request from the British police for searches and excavations to be done in Praia da Luz. The request appears in the latest letter rogatory...

. ...What remains now is to set the dates and how they will be performed.

...The British police also asked to be present at the time that those actions are carried out by the Portuguese inspectors, but that decision lies with the National Direction of the PJ and has not yet been taken...

...With this new path and although it is not officially confirmed, they are admitting, for the first time the possibility of Madeleine being dead.

Watching wrote:
A Portuguese police source has told The Portugal News that some requests by Scotland Yard detectives investigating the disappearance of Madeleine McCann have been “rejected due to a total lack of foundation.”...

...The ruling was made by a Portuguese criminal judge tasked with issuing search warrants applied for by the Metropolitan Police Service in the third and latest international letter of request sent to Lisbon earlier this year....

...The police source stressed that contrary to latest newspaper reports both in Britain and Portugal, no digging has been scheduled with regards to the investigation... ... but said no date for these operations had been set.

...But he reasoned that “if they are planning excavations, it means that they are looking for a body.”

...The source stressed: “All scenarios remain open."....

....Scotland Yard were not immediately for comment on the refusal of some their requests, which are believed to total no fewer than 278.

This "Portuguese police source" tell us an awful lot here. He tells us:

- There have been around 278 requests made by SY to the PJ.

- Many have been dismissed as having no foundation.

- The ONE request that has been granted is for a dig.

- The dig is only reasonable if a body is being searched for, the dig is granted on the premise that a body is being searched for.

- The Portuguese will orchestrate and undertake the dig.

- SY have asked to be present, this request is still being considered.

- The PJ must therefore always be responsible for the undertaking of the requests.

- The have declined to waste their time on unfounded leads in up to 277 attempts to be distracted from their own investigations.

- The PJ feel the ONLY request worth investigation is the search for a body.

- They will do so when and where they decide.

IMO, this whole excercise has being designed by the PJ to reiterate that they are in charge in Portugal and they have their own investigation and direction. Most of the British tugging on sleeves has been rejected apart from the one which compliments their own ends - the search for a body only.

It is the Portuguese not the British by doing this now who are showing the world the real likelihood of Madeleine's fate. SY are forced to acknowledge that this sole request has been agreed but up to 277 smokescreens have been blown away.

This is why IMO, after the furore in a couple of papers yesterday there is deathly silence today.

by Watching The Detectives 06.05.14 9:32

The link I included earlier no longer show the article about dogs.......hopefully this one does

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by Guest 06.05.14 9:34

Well, I must say this is all very biblical. Looks like they've well and truly picked the bones of the seven fat cows.....

Quite by chance I caught A Place In The Sun (or as it's known in our house, A Pain In the Arse) on C4 yesterday afternoon. They looked at apartments in PdL and Burgau, and spoke to Sally Eveleigh. All very subliminal.

Has anybody else seen the movie Holes? It was the first thing I thought of when I heard the latest news.

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by russiandoll 06.05.14 9:38

ChippyM wrote:I'm just being devil's advocate here but IF a body is found, would the Mc's really be in trouble? They could still argue their abduction theory as the body would be unlikely to reveal much at this stage......that is unless there is strong supporting evidence such as phone records, that ties them to the place where the body is found.

Question : Who would have reason to remove and bury the body, rather than leave it in 5a?

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