Re: "Maddie cops to start digging at resort"

by Cristobell 07.05.14 11:13

I think digging up the resort of PDL is going a bit over the top for a whitewash, as indeed was the Review and the full blown investigation. Some might say the police are in fact doing the opposite of a whitewash. If you are going to concoct an elaborate lie, would you really invite the World's media along?

The dig is very real and it dramatically alters the course of the investigation. It doesn't reinforce the McCanns' innocence, it opens huge glaring questions about their story. I would guess 4,999 of the 5000 calls SY received following CW, named Gerry as the man seen carrying a child and now they want to dig in the area where he was seen.

I think there are THREE investigations going on here. the PJ, SY and Team McCann, and the ridiculous requests without foundation probably come from Team McCann. It may be their right as 'Assistants' to the investigation. Whether that is an official status or not is moot, it may just have been granted to them because they are such nice people, loved by Lorraine Kelly and the little Englanders.

If the Portuguese have turned down 278 other requests, they are unlikely to have given the go ahead to dig up areas of PDL based on a whim. Asfaras we know, SY are still looking for smellyman, burglars, cleaners etc, ergo, the areas to dig have not been pinpointed by any of them. Martin Brunt's theory of a man with a shovel being spotted on the night, is right up there with Santa and the tooth fairy so can be discarded, leaving only the people who had means, motive and access, or whatever the saying is.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.05.14 11:15

HelenMeg wrote:
I think Tony is right - SY Operation Grange is about shaping public perception - however I also believe it has another remit which is to reveal some of the truth, but perhaps not the whole truth.

I think its objectives are to gently guide the UK pubic into accepting that after 7 long years of being brainwashed by Team McCann, M died and that her parents were involved in covering up the death. (It has already partially done this job - it has introduced the idea of death slowly but surely... just not fully concluded yet..)

If SY were to do that, however 'gently', HelenMeg, they would potentially open themselves to a libel action against them.

Also, given (a) that the PM's spokesman said that the remit was 'to help the family' and (b) that, when the offiicial remit of Grange was forced out of a very reluctant Met by an FoI Act request, it was to investigate 'as if the abduction had taken place in the UK', I don't reallstically see how SY could come anywhere close to making what would amount to a libellous suggestion, implicating the McCanns in a very very serious crime indeed, punishable by long terms of imprisonment.

Surely the present huige 'noise' about 'activities', 'actions', 'searches' and even 'excavations' etc. etc. - here, there and anywhere etc. etc. - in 3 places, 4 or 5 or however many, etc. etc. - merely serves to confirm in the public's mind that Madeleine was abducted - and by a beast who murdered her and then hid her body?

Look at the media coverage over the past four days. Are not the media saying, in unison: 'The poor McCanns, now they may face the uncomfortable truth that Madeleine's abductor killed her'?

by **Tony Bennett** 07.05.14 11:20

Cristobell wrote:I think digging up the resort of PDL is going a bit over the top for a whitewash, as indeed was the Review and the full blown investigation. Some might say the police are in fact doing the opposite of a whitewash. If you are going to concoct an elaborate lie, would you really invite the world's media along?

The world's media were invited during the early hours of Friday 4 May 2007 and have been courted and used for the past 7 years by the McCann Team.

As Jeremy Paxman once pointed out forcefully on Newsnight to a squirming Gerry McCann

by Rasputin 07.05.14 11:23

Surely one of these apparent requests should have been " may we bring back the families involved and reconstruct their
movements over this holiday period " ? before they ask for permission to wreak further destruction of Portugal .

by jeanmonroe 07.05.14 11:24

MarleneP wrote:Ok, the body was stored in the Waste Ground. Smithman brought it down to the sea where someone was waiting with a boat.

A slightly different 'theory'

"ok, the 'body' was stored in the waste ground (JW?). DP and GM, 'went out again' at 4:00am, 4th May 2007, and brought it down to the sea where 'someone' was waiting with a boat"

BTW, Mr McCann dosen't mind me suggesting 'theories'

by AndyB 07.05.14 11:32

whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:I don't believe that there is an establishment cover-up. If the establishment were covering things up, and had been from the beginning, I think this whole circus would have ended after a few months back in 2007.

It would have ended when the PJ shelved the investigation but for the one thing that nobody thought about: The case files were published and are available to anyone with an internet connection. Had that not happened none of us would be here now. What we are now witnessing, I believe, is SY desperately trying to put the genie back in the bottle by creating an entirely false perception.

As to another point that has been raised in this thread, I don't believe for one moment that the McCanns are being protected. Someone or something else is and the McCanns are accidental beneficiaries. I think the stress that we've seen in their faces recently is because they are realising that they could very well soon become sacrificial lambs to protect the someone/thing else

by Praia 07.05.14 11:35

Hi all,

I was in Luz yesterday and all was normal and quiet, just another day in early May. Hard to believe the whole world seemed to be focused on this village. BUT the locals are at the end of their tether, Portugal is on her knees financially, desperate for more tourists, trying to be positive about Summer 2014 and ......... Bang!!!!

All the areas mentioned were extensively, repeatedly searched and searched and searched......

All the areas are surrounded by towering apt's.

The roadworks and wasteland were the first places thought of that night, if she had wandered out of 5A. I walked up and down past both areas at least once a week, usually more, that long, sweltering Summer, they are on the narrow, main street. No way is there anyway a body was "overlooked".

For those who keep referring to the Church, it's tiny, no vaults, nothing like an English Church. It was their safe place for discussions away from eavesdroppers.

The graveyard again is overlooked on all sides, people here use their balconies at all times of night, even in early May.

The only areas worth searching, IMO, are out further from the village. Not in the countryside, not in the village. Petermac, I believe we are on the same page.

AND breathe......

by nglfi 07.05.14 11:35

If we look at events ove the past couple of years, the trend is to moe away from the innocence of the McCanns rather than towards it. We had the revealing of Smithman, whom the media made clear had been deliberately supressed. We've had AR admitting Maddie was dead when she left the apartment. We now have digging near the resort. Whether or not it's true, what's more interesting is that the media are moving away from TM. I've heard no mention of abductions recently, and surely this digging story would not even have been reported if the media were fully on side.
In recent months we have had many high profile people, including at least one politician, Cyril Smith, being revealed for their various crimes. Add to this the recent attack on certain labour party members for support of PIE, and we have a media that is increasingly prepared to report on such stories. Is it such a leap that they would be prepared to report on any high profile figures that may or may not be involved in this whole affair? I always come back to the point that if it was that much of a cover up we wouldn't know anything about it at all.

by Guest 07.05.14 11:37

Another possibility that I don't think has been raised so far.

Suppose the police (either PJ or SY) know that there is something to be found at a specific site but don't want to reveal what they know or how they know it - maybe to protect a witness or maybe to stop the McCanns pre-empting any findings. Any activity around PdL is going to arouse press interest so the search has to be carefully controlled.

By agreement, SY submits a few hundred requests to Portugal knowing that all but permission to search a handful of areas will be declined. The one area that SY and/or PJ are truly interested in is hidden amongst the headline grabbing wasteground and roadworks. The press are kept busy watching the wasteground while the important search is carried out unhindered elsewhere.

Just a theory.

by Pershing36 07.05.14 11:42

Dread to think what next weeks headlines will be.

'Bungling Portuguese cops dig in the wrong place'

by Cristobell 07.05.14 11:43

margaret wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
I think I have said on many occasions that from Day One this Scotland Yard operation has been about shaping public perception, and never was a genuine enquiry into the facts.

But that doesn't make sense to me, because so far SY have ruled out Tannerman and bought the Smith sighting to the fore, mentioned Maddie may not have left the apartment alive and have requested digs in PDL.

They haven't appeared to have helped the McCanns!

None of this appears to help the McCanns, which is why I struggle with the whitewash theory. The McCanns look terrible and the pathetic turn out for the anniversary vigil can't have done much to lift their spirits. Their 'support' has clearly gone and even Clarence cannot put a positive spin on the forthcoming dig.

I would imagine this dig in Portugal is their worst nightmare. I believe the body of Madeleine is in PDL, Kate visits twice a year, she can't help herself - she even had a dream Madeleine was buried on a hill and shared it with the PJ.

by Cristobell 07.05.14 11:46

Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:I think digging up the resort of PDL is going a bit over the top for a whitewash, as indeed was the Review and the full blown investigation. Some might say the police are in fact doing the opposite of a whitewash. If you are going to concoct an elaborate lie, would you really invite the world's media along?
The world's media were invited during the early hours of Friday 4 May 2007 and have been courted and used for the past 7 years by the McCann Team.

As Jeremy Paxman once pointed out forcefully on Newsnight to a squirming Gerry McCann

LOL, you are of course right Tony, thats exactly what they did!

The finale though is rather different to the launch, the divas are no longer directing the show.

by RIPM 07.05.14 11:48

Cristobell wrote:I think digging up the resort of PDL is going a bit over the top for a whitewash, as indeed was the Review and the full blown investigation. Some might say the police are in fact doing the opposite of a whitewash. If you are going to concoct an elaborate lie, would you really invite the World's media along?
The worlds media do not ask questions they do what their paymasters tell them.

The dig is very real and it dramatically alters the course of the investigation. It doesn't reinforce the McCanns' innocence, it opens huge glaring questions about their story. I would guess 4,999 of the 5000 calls SY received following CW, named Gerry as the man seen carrying a child and now they want to dig in the area where he was seen.
The dig is very real where is the evidence? Have SY stated the actual areas they want to dig in or are you going on media speculation.

I think there are THREE investigations going on here. the PJ, SY and Team McCann, and the ridiculous requests without foundation probably come from Team McCann. It may be their right as 'Assistants' to the investigation. Whether that is an official status or not is moot, it may just have been granted to them because they are such nice people, loved by Lorraine Kelly and the little Englanders.
The bombardment of actions come from Operation Grange.

If the Portuguese have turned down 278 other requests, they are unlikely to have given the go ahead to dig up areas of PDL based on a whim. Asfaras we know, SY are still looking for smellyman, burglars, cleaners etc, ergo, the areas to dig have not been pinpointed by any of them. Martin Brunt's theory of a man with a shovel being spotted on the night, is right up there with Santa and the tooth fairy so can be discarded, leaving only the people who had means, motive and access, or whatever the saying is.
Why would it be a Portuguese whim to show that SY are not following the evidence?

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 11:49

Tony Bennett wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:
I think Tony is right - SY Operation Grange is about shaping public perception - however I also believe it has another remit which is to reveal some of the truth, but perhaps not the whole truth.

I think its objectives are to gently guide the UK pubic into accepting that after 7 long years of being brainwashed by Team McCann, M died and that her parents were involved in covering up the death. (It has already partially done this job - it has introduced the idea of death slowly but surely... just not fully concluded yet..)
If SY were to do that, however 'gently', HelenMeg, they would potentially open themselves to a libel action against them.

Also, given (a) that the PM's spokesman said that the remit was 'to help the family' and (b) that, when the offiicial remit of Grange was forced out of a very reluctant Met by an FoI Act request, it was to investigate 'as if the abduction had taken place in the UK', I don't reallstically see how SY could come anywhere close to making what would amount to a libellous suggestion, implicating the McCanns in a very very serious crime indeed, punishable by long terms of imprisonment.

Surely the present huige 'noise' about 'activities', 'actions', 'searches' and even 'excavations' etc. etc. - here, there and anywhere etc. etc. - in 3 places, 4 or 5 or however many, etc. etc. - merely serves to confirm in the public's mind that Madeleine was abducted - and by a beast who murdered her and then hid her body?

Look at the media coverage over the past four days. Are not the media saying, in unison: 'The poor McCanns, now they may face the uncomfortable truth that Madeleine's abductor killed her'?

I do acknowledge that what you say is a possibility, yes. I suppose I do not want to believe that what you are saying is true. We can only wait and see

by Cristobell 07.05.14 11:50

AndyB wrote:
whatliesbehindthesofa wrote:I don't believe that there is an establishment cover-up. If the establishment were covering things up, and had been from the beginning, I think this whole circus would have ended after a few months back in 2007.
It would have ended when the PJ shelved the investigation but for the one thing that nobody thought about: The case files were published and are available to anyone with an internet connection. Had that not happened none of us would be here now. What we are now witnessing, I believe, is SY desperately trying to put the genie back in the bottle by creating an entirely false perception.

As to another point that has been raised in this thread, I don't believe for one moment that the McCanns are being protected. Someone or something else is and the McCanns are accidental beneficiaries. I think the stress that we've seen in their faces recently is because they are realising that they could very well soon become sacrificial lambs to protect the someone/thing else

Couldn't have put it better meself smilie

by whatliesbehindthesofa 07.05.14 11:51

Cristobell wrote:
None of this appears to help the McCanns, which is why I struggle with the whitewash theory. The McCanns look terrible and the pathetic turn out for the anniversary vigil can't have done much to lift their spirits. Their 'support' has clearly gone and even Clarence cannot put a positive spin on the forthcoming dig.

I would imagine this dig in Portugal is their worst nightmare. I believe the body of Madeleine is in PDL, Kate visits twice a year, she can't help herself - she even had a dream Madeleine was buried on a hill and shared it with the PJ.

I've said before, I wonder if Kate may have inadvertently led the PJ to this location. I would have had Kate under surveillance the moment she entered Portugal, and if she took a detour out to a place where she had no reason to be, I'd be out there the very next day with ground radar.

by NickE 07.05.14 11:53

Letter from AC Mark Rowley re Op Grange

07 May 2014

action in Portugal on the basis of MPS 'International letters of request'. Whilst the process is more bureaucratic and slower than we would wish, you will recall at recent briefings that DAC Martin Hewitt has said that we were increasingly optimistic of that activity starting soon.

I am writing because I now believe that activity will occur in forthcoming weeks. You will understand that our requests for action in Portugal lead to investigative steps taking place under Portuguese law. In this context I have been discussing with my opposite number in the Policia Judiciara the high levels of interest that the action (especially when some of it will take place in public) will generate in the British media. I have discussed with him that it is our usual and preferred practice in this case to brief the media on an ongoing basis on such cases as that usually ensures that the activity of reporters and the coverage assists rather than damages the investigation.

These briefings, as you would appreciate, do not give complete detail on what the activity is, (as this could compromise what we are trying to achieve), but do provide context and as much information as possible whilst still protecting the investigation.

The advice I am receiving from Portugal is that their approach is very different and they do not brief the media on current investigations. He has been clear with me that if we provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal, activity will cease until that problem dissipates.

It is important you understand this and appreciate the position in which I find myself. We will not be able to provide any information concerning the activity because ultimately it could mean the work stops. We respect the Portuguese position as we would expect them to respect our position if we were carrying out work on their behalf in the UK.

The most important task for me is to build momentum and protect our investigation given the many lines of enquiry that we see are necessary in order that we can do everything possible to solve the case. I ask that you support me and my team in those efforts. This includes respecting the requests of the Portuguese authorities during the work they will be carrying out on our behalf.

As well as being aware of the dangers of disrupting the work of the Portuguese, I would also ask you to think carefully about the information you decide to put into the public domain. Although we will continue not to comment on specific information, I would ask you to think twice about what impact that information or speculation might have on the investigation if it is published or broadcast.

We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

Collectively we all need to think carefully about our actions in this case.

Yours sincerely

Mark Rowley

by HelenMeg 07.05.14 11:54

Just because Kate says she goes out there twice a year to walk the streets doesn't mean it is the truth.
Kate says and always has said what she wants us to believe.IMo.

by Guest 07.05.14 11:56

It may be that the 200+ requests by SY have been rejected simply because the PJ have covered this ground already in their own inquiries. (aside from the home searches of the 3 burglars, a stupid request if genuine, we have covered before)
The PJ must have been doing something over the past year, and no one is going to know what that is including SY, because I believe their system of judicial secrecy works very well.
It is possible that after Smithmans appearance on CW and the huge number of people that identified him that this really is the only genuine lead that SY have and that fits in with the path that the PJ are going down themselves. He hasn't been mentioned since by SY, because they do not need any more information, not because they dropped him as a suspect. The PJ didn't get to fully investigate this sighting at the time as we all know.
Also if areas are to be looked at outside PdL that that must surely relate to specific phone pings and not a random selection based on the scenery.
I think all eyes are focused in one direction.

Another thing about the hard ground that sprang to mind when a poster mentioned wetting the ground before digging, the weather had not been very good in the preceding weeks and it had definitely been raining on the Wednesday, would this make the ground more easy to dig?
There was a congregation of the T7 plus one KM on the beach in the afternoon of the 3rd. And one GM who called off tennis with a "ruptured" achilles tendon, who's whereabouts we cannot be sure of. Possibly a grave was prepared at this time (siesta time for locals), to be used later undercover of darkness, maybe on the beach or nearby. With several people on the lookout while munching their ice creams and making sandcastles themselves.

by tiny 07.05.14 11:57

taken from the letter.
We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

another bummer, I think I will stay on the whitewash side

by whatliesbehindthesofa 07.05.14 12:00

Rowley's letter is interesting:

The advice I am receiving from Portugal is that their approach is very different and they do not brief the media on current investigations. He has been clear with me that if we provide any briefings or information on the work they are undertaking on our behalf, or if reporters cause any disruption to their work in Portugal, activity will cease until that problem dissipates.

Those four words entirely change what has been previously reported. My understanding had been that if there was any disruption caused by the media, activity would cease - not cease 'until that problem dissipates'.

Perhaps I have missed those four words previously, I don't know.

by Guest 07.05.14 12:07

tiny wrote:taken from the letter.
We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

another bummer, I think I will stay on the whitewash side

Was just about to highlight the same sentence.

All this pussy footing around the poor Mccann's.

What a joke.

by RIPM 07.05.14 12:11

Cristobel wrote:

I would imagine this dig in Portugal is their worst nightmare. I believe the body of Madeleine is in PDL, Kate visits twice a year, she can't help herself - she even had a dream Madeleine was buried on a hill and shared it with the PJ.

According to Kate herself speaking to Fiona Bruce last week she DOES NOT return twice a year

by whatliesbehindthesofa 07.05.14 12:13

Andrew77R wrote:
tiny wrote:taken from the letter.
We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

another bummer, I think I will stay on the whitewash side
Was just about to highlight the same sentence.

All this pussy footing around the poor Mccann's.

What a joke.

I don't see it as pussy-footing. How is it pussy-footing?

Firstly, formal use of 'Mr and Mrs McCann', no 'Gerry and Kate' or 'Madeleine's parents' here.

Secondly, 'providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers' - I think all of us here could provide them some answers (whether they be right or wrong). It doesn't mean anything.

'Tragic case' - certainly is, however you look at it - a little girl has died and been denied justice.

by Cristobell 07.05.14 12:14

tiny wrote:taken from the letter.
We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

another bummer, I think I will stay on the whitewash side

The key word in that sentence Tiny was tragic. They are looking for the body of a small child, and in every case of this nature, the police treat the parents with respect, it is probably ingrained in them to do so from the time they were rookies.

He is basically begging for restraint from the media who are probably chomping at the bit to release those sensational headlines they have been sitting on for years. Excavation works in PDL will turn the spotlight on the McCanns, how can it not? Fortunately the population are not yet so dumbed down that 2+2=5. As some people have already pointed out, no matter what they might have done, the family are extremely vulnerable at this time and have 2 young children. I find myself agreeing with him, the time for recriminations is not now.

by Cristobell 07.05.14 12:16

RIPM wrote:
Cristobel wrote:

I would imagine this dig in Portugal is their worst nightmare. I believe the body of Madeleine is in PDL, Kate visits twice a year, she can't help herself - she even had a dream Madeleine was buried on a hill and shared it with the PJ.
According to Kate herself speaking to Fiona Bruce last week she DOES NOT return twice a year

She said she usually returns twice a year, but hadn't been since last April.

by whatliesbehindthesofa 07.05.14 12:17

Cristobell wrote:
She said she usually returns twice a year, but hadn't been since last April.

Hmm, wonder what's different ... could it be something to do with the Portuguese investigation by any chance? :)

by tiny 07.05.14 12:18

Cristobell wrote:
tiny wrote:taken from the letter.
We do not want to undermine our prospects of providing Mr and Mrs McCann with answers in this tragic case.

another bummer, I think I will stay on the whitewash side
The key word in that sentence Tiny was tragic. They are looking for the body of a small child, and in every case of this nature, the police treat the parents with respect, it is probably ingrained in them to do so from the time they were rookies.

He is basically begging for restraint from the media who are probably chomping at the bit to release those sensational headlines they have been sitting on for years. Excavation works in PDL will turn the spotlight on the McCanns, how can it not? Fortunately the population are not yet so dumbed down that 2+2=5. As some people have already pointed out, no matter what they might have done, the family are extremely vulnerable at this time and have 2 young children. I find myself agreeing with him, the time for recriminations is not now.

best he didn't mention the mccanns at all then.my thought are with the twins and NOT the mccanns

by mariola 07.05.14 12:19

dantezebu wrote:It may be that the 200+ requests by SY have been rejected simply because the PJ have covered this ground already in their own inquiries. (aside from the home searches of the 3 burglars, a stupid request if genuine, we have covered before)
The PJ must have been doing something over the past year, and no one is going to know what that is including SY, because I believe their system of judicial secrecy works very well.
It is possible that after Smithmans appearance on CW and the huge number of people that identified him that this really is the only genuine lead that SY have and that fits in with the path that the PJ are going down themselves. He hasn't been mentioned since by SY, because they do not need any more information, not because they dropped him as a suspect. The PJ didn't get to fully investigate this sighting at the time as we all know.
Also if areas are to be looked at outside PdL that that must surely relate to specific phone pings and not a random selection based on the scenery.
I think all eyes are focused in one direction.

Another thing about the hard ground that sprang to mind when a poster mentioned wetting the ground before digging, the weather had not been very good in the preceding weeks and it had definitely been raining on the Wednesday, would this make the ground more easy to dig?
There was a congregation of the T7 plus one KM on the beach in the afternoon of the 3rd. And one GM who called off tennis with a "ruptured" achilles tendon, who's whereabouts we cannot be sure of. Possibly a grave was prepared at this time (siesta time for locals), to be used later undercover of darkness, maybe on the beach or nearby. With several people on the lookout while munching their ice creams and making sandcastles themselves.

This is a crucial time in the saga.From 4.30 on the 3rd GM DELETED.He has no alibi and the recovery from achilles injury doesn,t wash.

by **Tony Bennett** 07.05.14 12:28

Cristobell wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
Cristobell wrote:I think digging up the resort of PDL is going a bit over the top for a whitewash, as indeed was the Review and the full blown investigation. Some might say the police are in fact doing the opposite of a whitewash. If you are going to concoct an elaborate lie, would you really invite the world's media along?
The world's media were invited during the early hours of Friday 4 May 2007 and have been courted and used for the past 7 years by the McCann Team.

As Jeremy Paxman once pointed out forcefully on Newsnight to a squirming Gerry McCann
LOL, you are of course right Tony, thats exactly what they did!

The finale though is rather different to the launch, the divas are no longer directing the show.

Indeed, bringing the media in to support your campaign to 'uphold the sword of truth', like Jonathan Aitken, is no guarantee of success:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

But then the McCanns' campaign for the truth is supported by some of the most powerful men and women in this country - and beyond - unlike Jonathan Aitken