Re: Anyone for scraps?

by Okeydokey 20.10.13 17:01

lj wrote:
RIPM wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:Why did DAVID PAYNE make a statement to the Leics Police in Oct 07 that he last saw MADDIE at 17.00 on Thurs 3 May at apartment 5A in the presence of KATE and GERRY McCANN? contrary to everything in the public domain before or since.
Wasn't the explanation for that confusion between the UK and continental time systems. People here get confused - and there's every chance that it happened during a police interview i.e. that his original claim was 7pm or some variation around that. But there are clearly question marks over the narrative Team McCann give.
I do not believe people here are confused. There is no time difference between Portugal and the UK and would you believe a Detective would not ask him "do you mean 5pm or 7pm"? and to be totally clear is that 17.00hrs or 19.00 hrs, when it was of critical importance. Also if he meant 19.00hrs, Gerry would have been home from the tennis and again would put a big dent in the timeline. In a separate interview Fiona Payne states she was in 5A with KM at 19.00 hrs which would make her the last non McCann to see Madeleine.

These interviews have never been released by the PJ. There must be a reason why.
All medical charts are in "military" time ie 17.00 iso 5 pm. So that should not confuse them.

But then I have serious doubts about the quality of the work of these mediocre medics.

It's the other way round. No English person, doctor or otherwise would say "I went to the apartment at 19:00 hours" in this context. They would say "I went at 7pm". Of course if the Portugese officer - no doubt not a native English speaker then said "Did you say 17:00 hours?" they might well answer in the affirmative if they weren't focussing on it too much. This confusion was a long running joke in a popular comedy from the 70s here called Dad's Army.

I think you need a bit more proof that 5 pm was significant for some reason. I think much more significant was the contradiction between 3 minutes and 30 minutes for the visit.

by RIPM 20.10.13 18:29

Okeydokey wrote:
lj wrote:
RIPM wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:Why did DAVID PAYNE make a statement to the Leics Police in Oct 07 that he last saw MADDIE at 17.00 on Thurs 3 May at apartment 5A in the presence of KATE and GERRY McCANN? contrary to everything in the public domain before or since.
Wasn't the explanation for that confusion between the UK and continental time systems. People here get confused - and there's every chance that it happened during a police interview i.e. that his original claim was 7pm or some variation around that. But there are clearly question marks over the narrative Team McCann give.
I do not believe people here are confused. There is no time difference between Portugal and the UK and would you believe a Detective would not ask him "do you mean 5pm or 7pm"? and to be totally clear is that 17.00hrs or 19.00 hrs, when it was of critical importance. Also if he meant 19.00hrs, Gerry would have been home from the tennis and again would put a big dent in the timeline. In a separate interview Fiona Payne states she was in 5A with KM at 19.00 hrs which would make her the last non McCann to see Madeleine.

These interviews have never been released by the PJ. There must be a reason why.
All medical charts are in "military" time ie 17.00 iso 5 pm. So that should not confuse them.

But then I have serious doubts about the quality of the work of these mediocre medics.
It's the other way round. No English person, doctor or otherwise would say "I went to the apartment at 19:00 hours" in this context. They would say "I went at 7pm". Of course if the Portugese officer - no doubt not a native English speaker then said "Did you say 17:00 hours?" they might well answer in the affirmative if they weren't focussing on it too much. This confusion was a long running joke in a popular comedy from the 70s here called Dad's Army.

I think you need a bit more proof that 5 pm was significant for some reason. I think much more significant was the contradiction between 3 minutes and 30 minutes for the visit.

DAVID PAYNE gave a statement to an English police officer in an English police station in English. NO Portuguese officer was involved so NO translation issues. DAVID PAYNE said he last saw MADDIE in apartment 5A with KATE & GERRY at 5 pm or 17.00 . Why I have NO idea . I am just stating a fact.
You seem to wish to divert attention from this fact. Why I have NO idea. There is no confusion, the proof of this maybe the PJ have not released the transcript of this interview, they may think its important for use at a later date.
This post is about scraps of information which have seemingly no direct bearing on matters. This is one such item. Could I ask, how you do know what anyone would say in this context, if you weren`t there.

by **tigger** 20.10.13 18:46

Iirc Payne came forward with his testimony after Amaral had asked if there was anyone who'd seen her after tea time.
That fact, combined with the various different reasons for looking in and the widely different times and duration convince me that the visit never happened.

Add to that in the rogatory Fiona Payne drew attention to the deep sleep of the twins.
Add to that the Paynes and Webster having been back to give another statement to the PJ which contradicted the official timeline at the time.

That tells that the Paynes didn't quite realise what they were getting into at the time.

by Okeydokey 20.10.13 19:47

RIPM wrote:
DAVID PAYNE gave a statement to an English police officer in an English police station in English. NO Portuguese officer was involved so NO translation issues. DAVID PAYNE said he last saw MADDIE in apartment 5A with KATE & GERRY at 5 pm or 17.00 . Why I have NO idea . I am just stating a fact.
You seem to wish to divert attention from this fact. Why I have NO idea. There is no confusion, the proof of this maybe the PJ have not released the transcript of this interview, they may think its important for use at a later date.
This post is about scraps of information which have seemingly no direct bearing on matters. This is one such item. Could I ask, how you do know what anyone would say in this context, if you weren`t there.

RIPM -

I am not trying divert attention from this issue - I think the focus needs to be on the later discrepancy. If you haven't seen a transcript of the statement, I don't know how you know it's not an inaccuracy of translation (given the other statements we have).

I know how English people refer to time, because I am English, and I know how we do tend to get confused between the 24 hour clock and the 12 hour clock. My own brother in law managed to miss a plane as a result - and he's an intelligent guy who worked in an important position in a company.

by Okeydokey 20.10.13 19:50

dantezebu wrote:What I find strange, is not just that MO couldn't see the twins with any certainty from outside the room, are the words he used:

"You could see the shapes and you could see they were breathing, you’d stop and look and you could see they were sort of breathing,"
I know he is a doctor, but it's not the first think that springs into mind when checking on otherwise normally healthy 2 year olds.
Did he have any reason to suspect that they might not be breathing?
However giving him the benefit of the doubt and it was important he check this, why not check the third child. (Unless there was at that time, no point.)

And again later when the idea that the twins had been drugged their "vital signs" were checked. But no attempt was made to rouse them, or actually (as should have happened) get them checked at hospital. They may have been breathing but who knows what their oxygen saturation was.

I just have this feeling that the twins were probably drugged, in the same way that Madeleine had been drugged (which may have been the cause of the "dreadful accident" earlier).

Their vital signs were being checked all evening.
And all the coming and going and, or possibly even someone actually staying with them the whole time was to be sure one of them didn't succumb to the same fate.
Perhaps it was more like a game of tag with one person relieving the next one.

I agree. MO's evidence makes for very uncomfortable reading. Also, on the Loach mockumentary - he's doesn't look at all comfortable saying where he was standing...

by RIPM 20.10.13 20:18

Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:
DAVID PAYNE gave a statement to an English police officer in an English police station in English. NO Portuguese officer was involved so NO translation issues. DAVID PAYNE said he last saw MADDIE in apartment 5A with KATE & GERRY at 5 pm or 17.00 . Why I have NO idea . I am just stating a fact.
You seem to wish to divert attention from this fact. Why I have NO idea. There is no confusion, the proof of this maybe the PJ have not released the transcript of this interview, they may think its important for use at a later date.
This post is about scraps of information which have seemingly no direct bearing on matters. This is one such item. Could I ask, how you do know what anyone would say in this context, if you weren`t there.
RIPM -

I am not trying divert attention from this issue - I think the focus needs to be on the later discrepancy. If you haven't seen a transcript of the statement, I don't know how you know it's not an inaccuracy of translation (given the other statements we have).

I know how English people refer to time, because I am English, and I know how we do tend to get confused between the 24 hour clock and the 12 hour clock. My own brother in law managed to miss a plane as a result - and he's an intelligent guy who worked in an important position in a company.

I have seen the e mail concerning this interview it confirms it was given by DP who is English to an English Policeman in an English Police Station and written in English. (PJ files)

There is NO translation issue. You know how some English people refer to time but that is not what you wrote, and the fact that your brother in law isn't too bright is neither here nor there? DP made the statement in English, whether you try to confuse the issue or not. I repeat this post is about things that strike one as odd,as this seems to me to be. I have no idea what truth is in it but it happened we cannot rewrite history that is the speciality of team Mccann. Readers will decide for themselves

by lj 20.10.13 20:29

Okeydokey wrote:
lj wrote:
RIPM wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:Why did DAVID PAYNE make a statement to the Leics Police in Oct 07 that he last saw MADDIE at 17.00 on Thurs 3 May at apartment 5A in the presence of KATE and GERRY McCANN? contrary to everything in the public domain before or since.
Wasn't the explanation for that confusion between the UK and continental time systems. People here get confused - and there's every chance that it happened during a police interview i.e. that his original claim was 7pm or some variation around that. But there are clearly question marks over the narrative Team McCann give.
I do not believe people here are confused. There is no time difference between Portugal and the UK and would you believe a Detective would not ask him "do you mean 5pm or 7pm"? and to be totally clear is that 17.00hrs or 19.00 hrs, when it was of critical importance. Also if he meant 19.00hrs, Gerry would have been home from the tennis and again would put a big dent in the timeline. In a separate interview Fiona Payne states she was in 5A with KM at 19.00 hrs which would make her the last non McCann to see Madeleine.

These interviews have never been released by the PJ. There must be a reason why.
All medical charts are in "military" time ie 17.00 iso 5 pm. So that should not confuse them.

But then I have serious doubts about the quality of the work of these mediocre medics.
It's the other way round. No English person, doctor or otherwise would say "I went to the apartment at 19:00 hours" in this context. They would say "I went at 7pm". Of course if the Portugese officer - no doubt not a native English speaker then said "Did you say 17:00 hours?" they might well answer in the affirmative if they weren't focussing on it too much. This confusion was a long running joke in a popular comedy from the 70s here called Dad's Army.

I think you need a bit more proof that 5 pm was significant for some reason. I think much more significant was the contradiction between 3 minutes and 30 minutes for the visit.

I agree the difference between 3 min and 30 min is quite significant and very hard to explain.

Again in the medical world, even in England -btw I visited British universities and hospitals quite a few times in the past-, the times recorded are on 24h clock. The same for most police forces I know.
So the Tapas bunch should be used to that, and, as many people I know who are used to both systems, almost automatically use the 24 h one to avoid any misunderstanding. On the other side during a vacation I would not live by the clock and, unless there is something significantly happening, have no idea of the time other than "time to eat" and "time to sleep".

But hey, that's just my opinion, and again I agree that the 3 or 30 min is a bigger problem.

I see there has been more opinions about this, I'll let mine stand as it is.

by Okeydokey 20.10.13 22:04

RIPM wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:
DAVID PAYNE gave a statement to an English police officer in an English police station in English. NO Portuguese officer was involved so NO translation issues. DAVID PAYNE said he last saw MADDIE in apartment 5A with KATE & GERRY at 5 pm or 17.00 . Why I have NO idea . I am just stating a fact.
You seem to wish to divert attention from this fact. Why I have NO idea. There is no confusion, the proof of this maybe the PJ have not released the transcript of this interview, they may think its important for use at a later date.
This post is about scraps of information which have seemingly no direct bearing on matters. This is one such item. Could I ask, how you do know what anyone would say in this context, if you weren`t there.
RIPM -

I am not trying divert attention from this issue - I think the focus needs to be on the later discrepancy. If you haven't seen a transcript of the statement, I don't know how you know it's not an inaccuracy of translation (given the other statements we have).

I know how English people refer to time, because I am English, and I know how we do tend to get confused between the 24 hour clock and the 12 hour clock. My own brother in law managed to miss a plane as a result - and he's an intelligent guy who worked in an important position in a company.
I have seen the e mail concerning this interview it confirms it was given by DP who is English to an English Policeman in an English Police Station and written in English. (PJ files)

There is NO translation issue. You know how some English people refer to time but that is not what you wrote, and the fact that your brother in law isn't too bright is neither here nor there? DP made the statement in English, whether you try to confuse the issue or not. I repeat this post is about things that strike one as odd,as this seems to me to be. I have no idea what truth is in it but it happened we cannot rewrite history that is the speciality of team Mccann. Readers will decide for themselves

I think you are being needlessly aggressive. End of debate on this as far as I am concerned.

by Liz Eagles 20.10.13 22:13

Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:
Okeydokey wrote:
RIPM wrote:
DAVID PAYNE gave a statement to an English police officer in an English police station in English. NO Portuguese officer was involved so NO translation issues. DAVID PAYNE said he last saw MADDIE in apartment 5A with KATE & GERRY at 5 pm or 17.00 . Why I have NO idea . I am just stating a fact.
You seem to wish to divert attention from this fact. Why I have NO idea. There is no confusion, the proof of this maybe the PJ have not released the transcript of this interview, they may think its important for use at a later date.
This post is about scraps of information which have seemingly no direct bearing on matters. This is one such item. Could I ask, how you do know what anyone would say in this context, if you weren`t there.
RIPM -

I am not trying divert attention from this issue - I think the focus needs to be on the later discrepancy. If you haven't seen a transcript of the statement, I don't know how you know it's not an inaccuracy of translation (given the other statements we have).

I know how English people refer to time, because I am English, and I know how we do tend to get confused between the 24 hour clock and the 12 hour clock. My own brother in law managed to miss a plane as a result - and he's an intelligent guy who worked in an important position in a company.
I have seen the e mail concerning this interview it confirms it was given by DP who is English to an English Policeman in an English Police Station and written in English. (PJ files)

There is NO translation issue. You know how some English people refer to time but that is not what you wrote, and the fact that your brother in law isn't too bright is neither here nor there? DP made the statement in English, whether you try to confuse the issue or not. I repeat this post is about things that strike one as odd,as this seems to me to be. I have no idea what truth is in it but it happened we cannot rewrite history that is the speciality of team Mccann. Readers will decide for themselves
I think you are being needlessly aggressive. End of debate on this as far as I am concerned.

I've been a part of this forum for two years. I dislike 'newbies' arriving and having spats. This forum isn't twitter or facebook, civilized discussion is the essence of this form and a privilege to be a part of.

So please newbies whoever you are and however much you've read or not read and whatever forum you belong to please respect this forum.

by Guest 20.10.13 22:23

Well said Aquila.

Newcomers arriving and promptly going on the attack - instead of taking the time to read up on the various topics - will inevitably raise suspicions that their motives for joining are not genuine.

by worriedmum 20.10.13 22:28

maybe they were taking the title of the thread idiomatically exalt

by Guest 20.10.13 22:43

worried mum.

I have amended my own post title so that nobody gets the idea that this topic is for verbal punch-ups!

by dotdot 20.10.13 23:40

a weird scrap i can find no reason for is the thing about KM being bitten by some little dogs or something on her run (was this the day after madeleine 'vanished'? but then her running companion makes no mention of in his statement, but it seems like something that would stand out of pretty important significance enough that they would both remember. what the hell is that little dog attack about???

by View-from-Ireland 21.10.13 0:08

sharonl wrote:Never mentioned this one before because it is so insignificant that it's not worth bothering about, but it did bug me'

Kate McCann emphasising that they drank a glass of "New Zealand" wine

Most of would say that we were "enjoying a quiet drink", or "relaxing with a glass of wine".

I haven't read through the rest of this thread but I think it is an excellent idea and this 'New Zealand wine' comment encapsulates why the thread is important.

As far as I am concerned, it is the small things that continually trip the tapas crew up. In my view, and I think this was proved in the Soham case, when a person is guilty, they tend to exaggerate the minor details in a way that a person wouldn't if they had nothing to hide. So, a quiet drink becomes something loaded with minor details in attempt to exaggerate the truthfulness. I just think the New Zeland wine comment fits a whole set of exaggerations designed to prove something 'happened'. To prove they had taken a drink at that time they show that they can even remember the wine that they had had.

One thing that has always bugged me is the emphasis on the tea stain. Why? It just doesn't really fit and I can't see why it was introduced.

by Okeydokey 21.10.13 0:11

View-from-Ireland wrote:
sharonl wrote:Never mentioned this one before because it is so insignificant that it's not worth bothering about, but it did bug me'

Kate McCann emphasising that they drank a glass of "New Zealand" wine

Most of would say that we were "enjoying a quiet drink", or "relaxing with a glass of wine".

I haven't read through the rest of this thread but I think it is an excellent idea and this 'New Zealand wine' comment encapsulates why the thread is important.

As far as I am concerned, it is the small things that continually trip the tapas crew up. In my view, and I think this was proved in the Soham case, when a person is guilty, they tend to exaggerate the minor details in a way that a person wouldn't if they had nothing to hide. So, a quite drink becomes something loaded with minor details in attempt to exaggerate the truthfulness. I just think the New Zeland wine comment fits a whole set of exaggerations designed to prove something 'happened'. To prove they had taken a drink at that time they show that they can even remember the wine that they had had.

One thing that has always bugged me is the emphasis on the tea stain. Why? It just doesn't really fit and I can't see why it was introduced.

Yes, that's along the lines I was thinking...these scraps might be stray and of varying significance...it's the sheer number that are important. I can't think of another similar case where so many very odd statements and actions came to light but it turned out later that no suspicions were justified.

by View-from-Ireland 21.10.13 0:15

Cerinthe wrote:In David Payne's rogatory statement where he describes seeing Kate in the apartment with her children the evening Madeleine went missing, and describes the children as in white, like angels and at peace.

Yes, and this creeps the hell out of me too. There is something so fishy about that whole Payne episode. 30 minutes of 30 seconds?

And why were the Paynes and Webster not named on the CW reconstruction? Crucial people you'd think given that Payne was, supposedly, the last independent witness to Madeleine.

by Okeydokey 21.10.13 1:15

Another scrap I'd half forgotten...

I think Kate's Mum speaking on a radio phone-in made reference to Kate using (or maybe it was theoretically using) "valium" where she meant "valerian" . I may be wrong on that - does anyone else remember that? I am sure there was something along those lines...

by Okeydokey 21.10.13 1:17

View-from-Ireland wrote:
Cerinthe wrote:In David Payne's rogatory statement where he describes seeing Kate in the apartment with her children the evening Madeleine went missing, and describes the children as in white, like angels and at peace.
Yes, and this creeps the hell out of me too. There is something so fishy about that whole Payne episode. 30 minutes of 30 seconds?

And why were the Paynes and Webster not named on the CW reconstruction? Crucial people you'd think given that Payne was, supposedly, the last independent witness to Madeleine.

Absolutely - the omission was quite bizarre...given their names have been published countless times in the press, have been mentioned in TV progs and are plastered all over the internet. Now, suddenly, they are "anonymous".

by lj 21.10.13 2:10

Grammy Healy did mention valium for Madeleine's sleep problems. Heard by many any proof of that has disappeared of course.

The way the internet is being sanitized is almost proof in itself.

I never heard about the use of valerian for either Madeleine or for Kate. I doubt that would be of any use in Kate's case.

by Okeydokey 21.10.13 2:39

lj wrote:Grammy Healy did mention valium for Madeleine's sleep problems. Heard by many any proof of that has disappeared of course.

The way the internet is being sanitized is almost proof in itself.

I never heard about the use of valerian for either Madeleine or for Kate. I doubt that would be of any use in Kate's case.

I'm glad you confirm I didn't imagine that one! LOL I think I heard a clip from it before it was whoosh-clunked as we say. :)

Now I reflect back on that, I recall Kate's Mum did refer to valium but I think I was putting forward the interpretation that she had meant to say "valerian". The fact that she didn't say "valerian" but said "valium" could of course be highly significant. But IIRC the context was that Kate's Mum was (during a radio interview) trying to deny the McCanns sedated their kids and so in her answer she said something like "Of course Kate might have used normal remedies like valium"...my interpretation was that she had never meant to say "valium" and "valerian" is the most likely substitute for that word.

by ultimaThule 21.10.13 5:27

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Two items I came across when reading various threads yesterday and today are what appears to be 4 passports in the above photo of the top of the chest of drawers in the McCanns' bedroom and the website which appears to have been set up the year before Madeleine disappeared:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Assuming Madeleine's passport was issued when she was a baby, her photo would not have been any use to the police for identification or other purposes and the arrangement of the pile of passports (above) with keys on top suggests they've been undisturbed since they were first placed there.

I'm curious to know if the McCanns can produce their eldest daughter's passport? In the case of a missing child it would be an item which any (normal) parent would treasure. Perhaps it's in Madeleine's bedroom in Rothley Towers taking pride of place in lieu of her sticker book?

The sticker book is, of course, a sticking point for me - I still find it hard to get my brain round its destruction for any purpose, let alone the purpose of writing out a timeline. wft

While on the subject of Rothley Towers, the ceramic Terramundi money pot is a curious choice for the centre piece of Madeleine's 'mantelpiece shrine' and I'm curious to know more about its contents.

Other oddities/curiousities are too numerous to mention but include KM's karate chop action, the peculiar guttural sound she made, and the 'whoosh' of curtains blowing which sounds similar to the noise of ~~a crematorium furnace~~ my automatic gas oven firing up.

Add to that every word K&G have uttered and their demeanour when doing so, the photos of them emerging from church looking like a bridal pair on Madeleine's birthday just a few days after her disappearance - I could go on ad infinitum on these particular themes.

I've lambasted SY for taking 2 & half years and £6+million to get to where the PJ were within days/weeks of Madeleine's disappearance but, after joining this forum, I now have a greater appreciation of why the investigation has progressed at a snail's pace and if it leads to successful prosecution of those responsible for this child appearing to vanish into thin air, I will regard it as money well spent.

by Guest 21.10.13 8:49

Another thing that really bugged me from the start is the towel.
Why give the GNR dogs a towel to scent Maddie?
There was apparently a lot of bathing and showering that night. Who knows whos towel was whos at the end of it.
Could she have been 100% positive that was Maddies towel. How? I presume they were all white and wern't labled.
After bathing 3 children of that age I wouldn't know. I remember chasing my little girl around with the towel after bathtime, and I think she air dried most of the time.
And looking at a photograph of the bathroom there appears to be towel on the floor. So I don't think she had a particular system of hanging them up to dry.
And then is the thought, you would give the dogs the most smelly thing. Not what would be in theory the least smelly of all. After all she had just had a bath.
So why not give the dogs the clothes she was wearing that day?

by **tigger** 21.10.13 8:56

dantezebu wrote:Another thing that really bugged me from the start is the towel.
Why give the GNR dogs a towel to scent Maddie?
There was apparently a lot of bathing and showering that night. Who knows whos towel was whos at the end of it.
Could she have been 100% positive that was Maddies towel. How? I presume they were all white and wern't labled.
After bathing 3 children of that age I wouldn't know. I remember chasing my little girl around with the towel after bathtime, and I think she air dried most of the time.
And looking at a photograph of the bathroom there appears to be towel on the floor. So I don't think she had a particular system of hanging them up to dry.
And then is the thought, you would give the dogs the most smelly thing. Not what would be in theory the least smelly of all. After all she had just had a bath.
So why not give the dogs the clothes she was wearing that day?

Processos Volume V

Pages 1335 – 1337

Witness Statement

Date: 2007-05-16

Carlos Manuel Carvalho Lacão

Occupation: GNR Officer

He has been a GNR officer since 1988. He holds the post of soldier and currently works in the Portimao Territorial Group, working within the forensics service.

On 4th May he was called at about 01h15 when he was asleep at home, requesting him to appear at the Lagos GNR post as a small girl had disappeared. After arriving at the GNR post with his colleagues Morais and two dogs (Numi and Kit), German Shepherd dogs, which made up the search team, they immediately left for P da L. They arrived at about 02h30.

When they arrived at the scene, they entered the McCanns' apartment by the front door, and entered the living room, where there were some PJ officers as well as the McCann couple. They just talked to some colleagues from the PJ and asked for a piece of clothing that Madeleine had worn or used recently. They were given a pink/orange blanket that the child had been covered with in her bed. (Kate makes this some time later in the morning - see above. She said she doesn't know about the dogs earlier than 11.00 am!)

Plus the next lot of dogs:

Processo Volume III

Pages 762 to 765

Witness Statement

Antonio Freitas Silva

Date: 2007.05.09

Location: DIC Portimao
Occupation: 1st Sergeant GNR
Location: GNR-Queluz

The deponent states that:

• He comes to the process in the role of Chief of the GNR Search and Rescue Team. He coordinated all the work carried out by the two sniffer dogs in the Luz zone and the immediate areas relating to the disappearance of the English minor Madeleine McCann from the Ocean Club.

• He remembers that on the 4th of May of the current year, around 23h00, they attempted to tentatively identify and thus reconstruct the path taken by the missing minor. They gave the dogs a Turkish bath towel which was supposedly used by the child in question. This operation was realised by two different dogs.

From topic Kate and dogs, clear that the GNR weren't too happy about the towel.

by Guest 21.10.13 8:58

Here is a link to a copy of Madeleine's passport, ultimaThule.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Welcome dantezebu. I too have wondered about the use if any of a towel rather than clothes - what happened to the outfit worn at the poolside - cough?!

If it is true that clothes and even personal items like hairbrushes and toothbrushes (that is disgusting!) were communal, that towel was probably used by the world and his dog!

by ultimaThule 21.10.13 9:18

NFWTD I thought I'd seen Madeleine's passport photo somewhere on this forum but it seemed odd there should only be 4 passports in the pile as shown in the photo.

Of course the simple explanation is that the McCanns had handed their eldest daughter's passport to the police before the photo was taken but, as with everything McCann, I feel I've entered a parallel universe where everything is the opposite of what it appears to be.

I've even taken to wondering if the poor child was left home alone in Rothley Towers instead of going to Portugal. [ gets cold compress and goes to lie down in darkened room ]

by Guest 21.10.13 9:26

Thank you for that tigger. And thank you ulitmaThule for the welcome.

by Pershing36 21.10.13 9:32

This one that always comes back to me.

Charlotte Pennington, is it just a huge coincidence that her and KM had connections with the same ward, in the same hospital in New Zealand and then turned up at near enough the exact time in PDL to be a witness.

Where had Charlotte really been and what the months before the incident.

by plebgate 21.10.13 10:02

Little Maddie's shoes.

Even if all of her clothes had been washed the shoes would have had Maddie's DNA on them and yet her sister was allowed to wear them.

I will say it again, NO WAY would I have allowed Maddie's sister to wear her shoes or any of her clothing. It would all have been put away and treasured. Makes me sad to think of it sad

by joyce1938 21.10.13 10:12

Was there not similer sandels in different sizes so did baby twin really fit mad shoes ?not certain where this came from ? joyce1938

by plebgate 21.10.13 10:19

I may be wrong Joyce, but I think it is in the files, but I was reading an interview with Mrs. from 2009 in ? Bella magazine recently and it is stated in that article also. I do not recall having seen any rebuttal of this.