Re: Sunday Express tomorrow BRING THEM ALL BACK TO PORTUGAL

by loopzdaloop 05.05.13 22:44

The idea of a whitewash is a flawed one.

1) There has been no leaks, so integrity of investigative review is intact.
2) we don't suffer whitewashes anymore as the instigators are not safe hence hillsborough.
3) the police No longer fear arresting the high profile and since the saville fiasco they have a public mandate to do so. Hence the arrests of max Clifford and Rolf Harris.
4) the mccanns may have met Cameron recently, but to Tories the mccanns are just plebs like the rest of us. Completely different social circles. Gerry antagonised Cameron recently re leveson and it was new labour that they had the links to via Alex woolfall.
5) no journo will be back the mccann wagon if it continues down murrats path!
after leveson Bridges have been burnt.
7) the last high profile crime Scotland yard worked on they restored public faith (Stephen Lawrence)

What is interesting to me is the wider perspectives of the people that are
a) trying to claim whitewash and
B) claim its a waste of money.

Either way you look at it or argue it, this is one of the most high profile crimes there has ever been.
There is a sophisticated network of criminals, with a sophisticated network of allies keeping whatever happened quiet. Both the mccanns and the people of an alternate explanation can agree to that, we just differ on who the criminals really are.... Catching them is value for money.

by Guest 05.05.13 23:02

I must admit [it's getting late, I'm tired and off-guard maybe...] that it often occurred to me that there's a little bit more at stake than a missing child ...

by maebee 05.05.13 23:43

Excellent post Loopy. I'm sure that cases like Saville, Harris, Hall, Clifford, the Deputy Speaker etc. have been covered up before but we seem to be in a different era now where it's more difficult for governments to cover up. I really don't think SY could risk a Mccover-up. They are not stupid and must know that every single one of their 20 detectives involved in the review must have sussed the case. If they haven't, they don't deserve to be a Scotland Yard detective. It would be impossible to Mcsilence 20 detectives, imo. Somewhere down the line, even if it's 10 years from now, at least one of them, will speak out.

Six years and there hasn't been a Tapas crack. I've always been of the belief that it will be something left of field that will uncover the McScam. In light of the recent (shocking to the British public) arrests of half a dozen "celebrities" can we hope that we are being softened up for the biggest one of all? Add to that the unexpected request from Robert Murat today. Interesting times ahead.

I just hate the politics involved in this. Poor little Madeleine.

by Woofer 05.05.13 23:46

loopzdaloop wrote:The idea of a whitewash is a flawed one.

1) There has been no leaks, so integrity of investigative review is intact.
2) we don't suffer whitewashes anymore as the instigators are not safe hence hillsborough.
3) the police No longer fear arresting the high profile and since the saville fiasco they have a public mandate to do so. Hence the arrests of max Clifford and Rolf Harris.
4) the mccanns may have met Cameron recently, but to Tories the mccanns are just plebs like the rest of us. Completely different social circles. Gerry antagonised Cameron recently re leveson and it was new labour that they had the links to via Alex woolfall.
5) no journo will be back the mccann wagon if it continues down murrats path!
after leveson Bridges have been burnt.
7) the last high profile crime Scotland yard worked on they restored public faith (Stephen Lawrence)

What is interesting to me is the wider perspectives of the people that are
a) trying to claim whitewash and
B) claim its a waste of money.

Either way you look at it or argue it, this is one of the most high profile crimes there has ever been.
There is a sophisticated network of criminals, with a sophisticated network of allies keeping whatever happened quiet. Both the mccanns and the people of an alternate explanation can agree to that, we just differ on who the criminals really are.... Catching them is value for money.

A heartening post - thanks.

Although Max Clifford, Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall may seem high profile in a celebrity sense, it seems more to me like throwing the public a few scraps that some will be satisfied by. When will they get round to those at the top of the tree - the ones JS probably procured children for?

I always had faith that SY would do a proper job until Redwood went on TV and put forth the idea that it could be a stranger abduction. Why even go on TV? He also gave the impression that the McCanns were being kept informed, which they also say. And this is just not on is it? It would have been better to say nothing at all until the final report - and even that is going to be kept secret, which is quite acceptable if there is to be a courtcase.

I truly hope you`re right Loopzdaloop.

by suzyjohnson 05.05.13 23:52

I can see what you mean ShuBob that Murat is an important witness, as he was present at some of the interviews, and knows the places and people involved. I meant that the police must know that Murat was not responsible for MM's disappearance, and perhaps they think that everything relevant that he has to say has already been covered.Since he was at one point made arguido, presumably he has been questioned at length already, and his evidence carefully evaluated.

by tasprin 05.05.13 23:54

[quote="Woofer

Re: the Tweets - thanks for posting them. I didn`t know SY had done any interviewing at all. Wonder if they`ve interviewed the glaringly obvious witnesses or maybe they`ve been blinded by the elephant in the room. Jolly good of SY to be keeping the McCanns updated anyway. Oh, what a farce.[/quote]

If these reports are anything to go by, Scotland Yard has interviewed other witnesses.

EXPRESS
Sep 23, 2012
Maddie McCann may have been watched from balcony, witness tells Yard
A KEY witness with potentially vital evidence about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has just been interviewed by a Scotland Yard detective on the cold case review team.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard

DAILY BEAST
Nov 28, 2012
Now, five and a half years later, the Thompsons say they have finally been summoned by Scotland Yard to answer further questions about what the convicted criminal told them
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/did-he-steal-madeleine-mccann.html

　

DAILY BEAST
Mar 21, 2013
Claiming to have seen a letter from British detectives, the Sun quoted an unnamed property manager who says he has been asked several times by detectives about the cleaning crew who worked for the Ocean Club resort when Madeleine disappeared. “The officer said it had been drawn to their attention [that] there were British people who cleaned the apartments that they needed to speak to,” the property owner claimed. “They said, ‘Who are the British cleaners that are cleaning the apartments in a white van’? They wanted to know if I knew anybody that does cleaning out there. They asked about it four times.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/21/madeleine-mccann-case-police-hunt-for-troupe-of-british-cleaners.html

by Cristobell 05.05.13 23:58

loopzdaloop wrote:The idea of a whitewash is a flawed one.

1) There has been no leaks, so integrity of investigative review is intact.
2) we don't suffer whitewashes anymore as the instigators are not safe hence hillsborough.
3) the police No longer fear arresting the high profile and since the saville fiasco they have a public mandate to do so. Hence the arrests of max Clifford and Rolf Harris.
4) the mccanns may have met Cameron recently, but to Tories the mccanns are just plebs like the rest of us. Completely different social circles. Gerry antagonised Cameron recently re leveson and it was new labour that they had the links to via Alex woolfall.
5) no journo will be back the mccann wagon if it continues down murrats path!
after leveson Bridges have been burnt.
7) the last high profile crime Scotland yard worked on they restored public faith (Stephen Lawrence)

What is interesting to me is the wider perspectives of the people that are
a) trying to claim whitewash and
B) claim its a waste of money.

Either way you look at it or argue it, this is one of the most high profile crimes there has ever been.
There is a sophisticated network of criminals, with a sophisticated network of allies keeping whatever happened quiet. Both the mccanns and the people of an alternate explanation can agree to that, we just differ on who the criminals really are.... Catching them is value for money.

I think much the same. Well said, even super spin doctor Max Clifford has not been able to avoid arrest and publicity.

I'm disturbed by Friday's pictures though. Even during those terrible days of August 2007 (according to Kate's book), they were completely distraught behind the scenes, but gave no hint of it and continued with the photocalls and interviews as usual. Friday's pics are raw grief. Pure speculation, but I wonder if advancements in technology have been able to re-define the forensics? SY may now be following second line of enquiry, ie, that sadly, Madeleine is dead.

Blacksmith said in his last blog that if what he heard was true he would stop writing about the case as he had not wish to gloat. As far as I know he hasn't written anything since. I fully understand his sentiments, I doubt anyone could take any satisfaction from those recent pictures. We can only wonder what on earth it is that drives the main protagonists to the point of their own destruction. They have let Tony off 93% of the costs, that leaves a £300K + surplus unless CR are 'doing a lot of work for nothing' - which I think unlikely. Their trial against Goncalo Amaral and the other two defendants (all three of whom will have separate legal teams and who may seek compensation for the banning of their work, will be costly if they don't win. Effectively their forthcoming libel trial can potentially wipe them out. Especially if they no longer have millionaire backers.

I agree most will now think twice before covering up for others. The shame that was heaped on those who covered up Hillsborough will haunt them and possibly their families forever more. It will indeed, serve as a warning to others that even the mighty can be toppled. Pressure groups ensured that the Hillsborough families and the family of Stephen Lawrence were never forgotten, and their tenacity eventually paid off.

But back to your post,I agree, a whitewash simply isn't an option.

by Guest 05.05.13 23:59

suzyjohnson wrote:I can see what you mean ShuBob that Murat is an important witness, as he was present at some of the interviews, and knows the places and people involved. I meant that the police must know that Murat was not responsible for MM's disappearance, and perhaps they think that everything relevant that he has to say has already been covered.Since he was at one point made arguido, presumably he has been questioned at length already, and his evidence carefully evaluated.

I would also think that they are taking advice from the PJ re who to speak to. SY are liaising with the PJ and have been to see them on a number of occasions. As you say, Robert Murat was an arguido, and was grilled thoroughly I should imagine, and as far as I'm aware he didn't refuse to answer any questions. Sunday Express tomorrow BRING THEM ALL BACK TO PORTUGAL - Page 6 234628

Sunday Express tomorrow BRING THEM ALL BACK TO PORTUGAL - Page 6 234628

I wonder if the Smith family have been or are being seen again, as Goncalo said he was preparing to speak to them again before he got moved from the case.

by suzyjohnson 06.05.13 0:30

Well you'd think so Candyfloss. In fact, you'd think the Smith family would be part of a reconstruction. Another reason GM wouldn't want to take part?

by ShuBob 06.05.13 0:55

Murat was visited by McCann operatives including Brian Kennedy and Edward Smethurst in 2007. SY would do well to re-interview him to find out if they've contacted him again.

by Pershing36 06.05.13 1:28

Châtelaine wrote:Sorry, I cannot agree. Call me stupid, but I still do have faith in Justice and the people, who have chosen it to be their job to bring it about. Only if SY comes up with a "she may be alive, she may be dead and there's no proof what happened, probably a rare stranger abduction" I will lose my faith and some will to live and spend a couple of days cursing [in solitude] ...

I don't think you are stupid and I would love to believe justice will always prevail.

However I cannot get my head around why IF they had something to do with this why they would lobby the PM for a no holds barred investigation. Even if they were silly enough to do it they have a massive expensive legal team, they would never let it happen.

Like Peter said earlier, CR would probably never entertain them returning to Portugal for a reconstruction.

I can only assume that they had reassurances that they would not be treated as suspects, interviewed as suspects or have to return to Portugal for any PJ requests. This would have happened well before the review started and probably in writing with their legal team.

Nobody in their right mind would campaign to get the police to re-investigate something they had previously got away with. It was TM that got this open, not the police who looked at the case and thought something was dodgy.

I don't think any parallels came be made with the Saville and Clifford investigations. The major difference is the amount of victims that are coming forward making it impossible to ignore like they did previously with complaints. Sadly the victim in this case is not able to complain if the police don't get to the bottom of it.

by aiyoyo 06.05.13 6:20

Pershing36 wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Sorry, I cannot agree. Call me stupid, but I still do have faith in Justice and the people, who have chosen it to be their job to bring it about. Only if SY comes up with a "she may be alive, she may be dead and there's no proof what happened, probably a rare stranger abduction" I will lose my faith and some will to live and spend a couple of days cursing [in solitude] ...

I don't think you are stupid and I would love to believe justice will always prevail.

However I cannot get my head around why IF they had something to do with this why they would lobby the PM for a no holds barred investigation. Even if they were silly enough to do it they have a massive expensive legal team, they would never let it happen.

err... you've lost me....who lobby the PM for a no-holds-barred investigation? Surely, not the Mccanns!

A no-holds-barred means without restriction, and by definition that means the investigation is obliged by law to eliminate her parents. And we know the parents (at least one of them) refused to answer question then fled the country. A no-holds-barred means they must be prepared to fly back to Portugal at drop of hat if asked to. Do you the Mccanns will agree to that? Else how does the no-holds-barred apply?

Like Peter said earlier, CR would probably never entertain them returning to Portugal for a reconstruction.

I can only assume that they had reassurances that they would not be treated as suspects, interviewed as suspects or have to return to Portugal for any PJ requests. This would have happened well before the review started and probably in writing with their legal team.

Nobody in their right mind would campaign to get the police to re-investigate something they had previously got away with. It was TM that got this open, not the police who looked at the case and thought something was dodgy.

I don't think any parallels came be made with the Saville and Clifford investigations. The major difference is the amount of victims that are coming forward making it impossible to ignore like they did previously with complaints. Sadly the victim in this case is not able to complain if the police don't get to the bottom of it.

by IAmNotMerylStreep 06.05.13 7:50

Pershing36 wrote:Like Peter said earlier, CR would probably never entertain them returning to Portugal for a reconstruction.

I don't understand this point at all I'm afraid. Carter-Ruck are libel lawyers not criminal lawyers so how can libel lawyers prevent them returning to Portugal for a reconstruction?

by plebgate 06.05.13 8:38

Might be wrong, but didn't they have access at one time to the same lawyers as Pinochet?

This could easily be arranged for them anyway given that they seem to still have millionaire backer.

by **PeterMac** 06.05.13 8:51

Yes, Michael Caplan, of Kingsley Napley, who specialises in extradition - and how to prevent it.

Michael has been described as one of the most formidable lawyers of his generation.

Extradition and Mutual Legal Assistance

Michael is well known for having represented Augusto Pinochet in extradition proceedings. He maintains an extradition practice advising both individuals and foreign governments. Sources in Chambers and Partners 2011 say that Michael "has a phenomenal reputation in extradition".

He also acts in requests for Mutual Legal Assistance representing both UK and foreign nationals.

Top guns right from the start.
Why ?

by russiandoll 06.05.13 9:45

quote Nina " It is telling the general public that it isn't as cut and dried as the McCann's try to make out, and done in a very clever way."

It is indeed,with its ambiguity and " read between the lines".

I must say that I am astounded at twitter, where the abduction believers are saying that the 48 hours sub- heading was not attributed to Mr Murat......the text clearly names him as the source of the statment re- the wider timeline requiring scrutiny.
It is not alluded to in the body of the text I read, but it is there and given real prominence below the headline.

Therefore very significant in relation to the text below it.
The article is throwing a spotlight on the holiday group.
And imo sending a subtle message to them.
Just my opinion.

by Woofer 06.05.13 9:52

Pershing - "Like Peter said earlier, CR would probably never entertain them returning to Portugal for a reconstruction."

This statement assumes that CR have more authority than the law !!

If someone is summoned by law to be questioned or do a reconstruction, they can`t just say to the police "Sorry, the lawyer says no".

Even if they get an extradition lawyer to try and fight it, they may not win and even if they win, they can still be interviewed in their own country.

Although the initial crime took place in another country, they can still be charged under UK law for something that happened abroad AFAIA.

by russiandoll 06.05.13 10:03

quote woofer " I always had faith that SY would do a proper job until Redwood went on
TV and put forth the idea that it could be a stranger abduction. Why
even go on TV? He also gave the impression that the McCanns were being
kept informed, which they also say. And this is just not on is it? It
would have been better to say nothing at all until the final report -
and even that is going to be kept secret, which is quite acceptable if
there is to be a courtcase. "

Redwood said that he would keep Madeleine at the heart of everything the Met do.
He and his team are there to establish what happned to a child who went on a week away and never came back.
He kept a polite, professional distance from the parents...they were not Kate and Gerry, but Mr and Mrs McCann.
He briefly alluded to the obvious, Maddie may be alive or sadly dead. There are some against the odds scenarios where she may be alive.. he could not rule them out.
He said he believed a stranger took her in a criminal act.
There were people on that holiday who were acquainted with her parents rather than friends of theirs, and crucially were even less known to the child......the definiton of a stanger in abduction cases is a person not known or barely known to the child.
If you read the witness statements, most of the adult friends of the parents came into that category.
If we discount her parents, Maddie was on holiday with only 2 out of 7 adults whom she knew, the Payne couple.
There were 5 whom she barely knew at all.
So plenty of strangers for SY to be looking at who might have removed her in a criminal act.
They had access and opportunity.

I would imagine and hope that the parents were only touching base with the PM who ordered the review.
Also that their family liaison officer is doing only what they always do in providing updates.
These people always as far as I am aware, are there to keep an eye on the family as part of their duties.
Because the person reporting an abduction always comes under scrutiny, as stated in the policy and procedures.

by Woofer 06.05.13 10:06

Tasprin - " If these reports are anything to go by, Scotland Yard has interviewed other witnesses.

EXPRESS
Sep 23, 2012
Maddie McCann may have been watched from balcony, witness tells Yard
A KEY witness with potentially vital evidence about the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has just been interviewed by a Scotland Yard detective on the cold case review team.

[url=http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard]http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/347692/Maddie-McCann-may-have-been-watched-from-balcony-witness-tells-Yard[/url]

DAILY BEAST
Nov 28, 2012
Now, five and a half years later, the Thompsons say they have finally been summoned by Scotland Yard to answer further questions about what the convicted criminal told them
[url=http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/did-he-steal-madeleine-mccann.html]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/28/did-he-steal-madeleine-mccann.html[/url]

DAILY BEAST
Mar 21, 2013
Claiming to have seen a letter from British detectives, the Sun quoted an unnamed property manager who says he has been asked several times by detectives about the cleaning crew who worked for the Ocean Club resort when Madeleine disappeared. “The officer said it had been drawn to their attention [that] there were British people who cleaned the apartments that they needed to speak to,” the property owner claimed. “They said, ‘Who are the British cleaners that are cleaning the apartments in a white van’? They wanted to know if I knew anybody that does cleaning out there. They asked about it four times.”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/03/21/madeleine-mccann-case-police-hunt-for-troupe-of-british-cleaners.html "

Thanks Tasprin - yes, they`ve certainly been doing some interviewing by the looks of it which can only be good, but they seem to be missing the elephant in the room. We continually see how the media are not allowed to ask the McCanns awkward questions - but surely SY could ask these awkward questions and challenge all the lies and discrepancies, and that includes all the Tapas group.

by russiandoll 06.05.13 10:07

quote " But back to your post,I agree, a whitewash simply isn't an option. "

Agree also. If there was a big top secret goverment scenario behind this it would have been buried at the outset by MI5.
Would not have cost almost £5 million either. imo.

by Guest 06.05.13 10:16

Watching cold cases a lot on Crime and Investigation channel I heard a law enforcement officer say these words or very similar....

'When you look at a cold case, you first have to elimate the improbable and the impossible, and what you are left is the probable'

They , the police, have to be seen to be doing a thorough job, eliminate all other possibilities, all sightings, all potential suspects, so that if there should ever be a court case the defence cannot use this as an argument that other avenues have not been explored, and bring up potential suspects that the police have not looked at. I am talking generally about the cases I have watched, even when they know or think who has comitted the crime, they still check all angles, and eliminate all other potential suspects.

As for the review, we know that the previous government had already carried out a 'scoping excercise' which was deemed 'too sensitive' to show to the McCanns.

by Woofer 06.05.13 10:20

Russian Doll - "He said he believed a stranger took her in a criminal act."

ok - I can see our interpretations of `stranger` are different. Yes, being positive I can see where you`re coming from but feel it`s grabbing at straws. However I truly hope you`re right and that I`m just being a negative nellie.

by Pershing36 06.05.13 10:36

aiyoyo wrote:
Pershing36 wrote:
Châtelaine wrote:Sorry, I cannot agree. Call me stupid, but I still do have faith in Justice and the people, who have chosen it to be their job to bring it about. Only if SY comes up with a "she may be alive, she may be dead and there's no proof what happened, probably a rare stranger abduction" I will lose my faith and some will to live and spend a couple of days cursing [in solitude] ...

I don't think you are stupid and I would love to believe justice will always prevail.

However I cannot get my head around why IF they had something to do with this why they would lobby the PM for a no holds barred investigation. Even if they were silly enough to do it they have a massive expensive legal team, they would never let it happen.

err... you've lost me....who lobby the PM for a no-holds-barred investigation? Surely, not the Mccanns!

A no-holds-barred means without restriction, and by definition that means the investigation is obliged by law to eliminate her parents. And we know the parents (at least one of them) refused to answer question then fled the country. A no-holds-barred means they must be prepared to fly back to Portugal at drop of hat if asked to. Do you the Mccanns will agree to that? Else how does the no-holds-barred apply?

Like Peter said earlier, CR would probably never entertain them returning to Portugal for a reconstruction.

I can only assume that they had reassurances that they would not be treated as suspects, interviewed as suspects or have to return to Portugal for any PJ requests. This would have happened well before the review started and probably in writing with their legal team.

Nobody in their right mind would campaign to get the police to re-investigate something they had previously got away with. It was TM that got this open, not the police who looked at the case and thought something was dodgy.

I don't think any parallels came be made with the Saville and Clifford investigations. The major difference is the amount of victims that are coming forward making it impossible to ignore like they did previously with complaints. Sadly the victim in this case is not able to complain if the police don't get to the bottom of it.

Well if you really, really believe that SY and their review will be no holds barred and every possibility is going to be investigated. I take it you will except the review IF it comes back as Hewlit was the possible abductor or an unknown abductor?

by Guest 06.05.13 11:06

How did the Express get hold of the story, was the journalist based in Casa Lillania or was the journalist sent to meet Murat by prior agreement? Surely he didn't just bump into Murat and say "Shall we go for a sip of tea and I'll listen to what you have to say"?

Is this Desmond's way of using other people to question the McCann's version of events?

by plebgate 06.05.13 11:11

As someone posted earlier in the thread - does Murat think the finger could be pointed at him again?
Even though it appears he hasn't been interviewed by SY, he may have been tipped off that it could be a possibility - therefore if he is to be then why not get them all over to Portugal and interview them all.
Did Murat contact the Express himself because he believes this might happen?

by suzyjohnson 06.05.13 11:17

Pershing, I think the McCanns are in a situation in that they will be under pressure from everyone else. How can they not act on what seems a good idea to raise awareness, or raise funds or ask for a review? What would people say then? I know they are often applauded for continuing to keep looking for Madeleine, but isn't that what every parent of a missing child does?

How can nine adults justify not taking part in a reconstruction if they really are concerned for the safety of a young girl?

by Woofer 06.05.13 11:23

plebgate wrote:As someone posted earlier in the thread - does Murat think the finger could be pointed at him again?
Even though it appears he hasn't been interviewed by SY, he may have been tipped off that it could be a possibility - therefore if he is to be then why not get them all over to Portugal and interview them all.
Did Murat contact the Express himself because he believes this might happen?

Could be something to do with the police investigating Max Clifford. Heaven knows what incriminating stuff MC has on his files about RM. MC has said in the past that he always insists on the absolute truth from his clients then he is more able to concoct a good PR story.

by suzyjohnson 06.05.13 11:23

Plebgate - If I were Murat, I would be livid that the Tapas group had put me in the situation where I was made arguido. That they were saying they had seen me by the apartments when I wasn't even there, and that one of the group was even prepared to say they had seen me carrying a young child away. (Does the drawing of the abductor by JT look even remotely like Murat?) I would want to know why they had done what they did and I would read up on the case. Then I would want to set the entire record straight and find out the truth of the situation.

by ShuBob 06.05.13 11:38

The Express are known to have some sort of relationship with the Murats and the Amarals. They seem like the only UK publication willing to interview them and then publish what they say. Remember it was they who published the damning comments to Kate by Sofia Leal, Amaral's wife at the time.

by **PeterMac** 06.05.13 11:58

The Express want their money back.

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