Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

by dragonfly 04.02.13 22:25

jd wrote:
PeterMac wrote:It certainly would bring it into question, and might provide the answer to a number of problematic areas. If they had hired it as soon as they knew they were going to stay in PdL for a considerable time - let us suppose after a couple of days when there was no sign of Madeleine, and hired it for a week at a time, which might be understandable, then after a couple of weeks they move on to a longer term rental agreement, perhaps open ended.
Same car. Same contamination in the boot,
and voila.
Same car, but perfectly properly a new agreement, copied, as you suggest, perhaps badly, from the other one, which itself was a copy of the first one and so on.

Damn dogs !

This is very true, but why are they using a false address and what appears to be a false passport number too?

Murat gave a different address too, His Ex wife's when hiring a car,

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by sardinehater 04.02.13 22:36

Lady-Heather wrote:This is pure conjecture - is it possible that the car was hired on behalf of GM, with the assistance of one of their wealthy backers? Perhaps with details from a previous hire by GM when last in Portugal, or, details supplied with the last known address of GM by said wealthy backer, passport number either fictitious or that of someone else. IIRC the the Scenic was handed back to Budget by a 'Geraghty' [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Or perhaps it was hired by someone with enough clout to get the UK Passport Office to open its doors to issue a passport on January 1st? I doubt anybody beneath the rank of God could manage that so that points to one hell of a conspiracy but what the heck this is only speculation after all. I am not claiming its anything to do with the truth of the matter.

by sardinehater 04.02.13 22:38

dragonfly wrote:
jd wrote:
PeterMac wrote:It certainly would bring it into question, and might provide the answer to a number of problematic areas. If they had hired it as soon as they knew they were going to stay in PdL for a considerable time - let us suppose after a couple of days when there was no sign of Madeleine, and hired it for a week at a time, which might be understandable, then after a couple of weeks they move on to a longer term rental agreement, perhaps open ended.
Same car. Same contamination in the boot,
and voila.
Same car, but perfectly properly a new agreement, copied, as you suggest, perhaps badly, from the other one, which itself was a copy of the first one and so on.

Damn dogs !

This is very true, but why are they using a false address and what appears to be a false passport number too?

Murat gave a different address too, His Ex wife's when hiring a car,

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Perhaps McCann and Murat were both among those 2 million people who have not updated their licences as required by law? There is a good chance after all.

by Angelique 04.02.13 23:22

jd wrote:Good finds....It looks very likely that gerry mccann attended the 9th annual scientific sessions of the society for cardiovascular magnetic resonance: Miami, Florida, January 20-22, 2006......Is it possible that he could have signed the house contracts on say, the 18th? Seems strange that the house was sold while he was away in Miami an normally houses are 'sold' the day the contracts are signed

If he has 2 passports (which I also find strange) then obviously he would have had them both in PDL, but there are only 4 passports in 5A (5th being Maddies). Unless when gerry mccann went back to Rothley on May 19th he brought back another passport. None of this adds up

jd

Yes if purchasers are interested in buying a house the Vendors can sign a Contract which would be held by the Solicitor in readiness to exchange even if you are not present i.e.on holiday.

by bristow 04.02.13 23:56

Yes I have just sold a house and I signed the contracts weeks before completion, they were held by my solicitor until the time came.

by jd 05.02.13 12:48

So gerry mccann has what looks to be perfectly legit passport issued on Sept 2004, 7 years validity on it, used to go the States, obviously used to go to PDL with and its details given to the official police investigation files. gerry mccann having a few days previous to the car hire contract obviously used it to go back to Rothley for a few days and read the Gaspar statement at LPP (imo)

So why on earth has he suddenly used a completely different passport for the car hire? when he doesn't seem to have used it anywhere else. What is so special that the 'other' passport was used just for the car hire contract?

It can't have been to back up his driving license with because the 'other' passport was issued in 2007 so would have had the Rothley address on it as they had been living in Rothley for a year at time of issue. if anything, he would have used the one in the PJ files which was issued in 2004 as this is most likely to have the Queniborough address on it

Could someone else have used theirs as gerry mccann was busy? Possibly, but gerry mccann would have given to whoever his driving license details and address so why omit the passport? None of his friends with all things being equal would know his postcode

Reading gerry mccanns blogs, he was not busy on 27th May 2007 (Sunday). He went for a run in the hills, attended a mass, had lunch, and then stayed in the apartment in the afternoon catching up on emails whilst kate mccann took the twins to the beach. No reason for gerry mccann to have been too busy for someone else to have made the contract on his behalf. The contract was made at 12.30pm, so this fits nicely between after mass and before taking lunch

gerry mccann blog 27th may 2007

Strange day after all the activity during the week. Kate and I started off with an early morning run to the the top of the nearby cliffs. Sean and Amelie were back in kids club and went swimming again. The rest of us attended mass which was very emotional as a priest from RAF Lossiemouth was visiting and further prayers were said for Madeleine. Father Zee-Manuel has also rigged up a powerpoint display projecting a large photograph of Madeleine on to the wall, which he is very proud of and reminds us of the beautiful little girl we are missing so terribly.

There have been some requests for more information ‘about Madeleine’ and this section will be updated very soon. We will also be releasing a very short video of Madeleine taken at the Airport on the day we left for Portugal, Saturday 28 April. Sean and Amelie went to the beach this afternoon with mummy, auntie Trisha and Anne but daddy stayed in the apartment catching up on campaign e-mails, making calls and liaising with Clarence our press officer. The resort is much busier again as it is half-term and there are definitely less journalists here. Many of them have been here since the beginning and are making this journey with us.

The couple of Sunday articles we read did not cover much of what we talked about and seemed to get some of the other stuff wrong! We stated that Sean and Amelie are sleeping in our room (in separate cots) because of other family staying with us and that we were trying to treat them as normal and not be overprotective. This came out that we were so protective we have to have them sleeping in our bed! These inaccuracies are not important in our search for Madeleine and the next phase is being planned currently.

It looks like our planned trips to other European cities will start off in Rome after we learned today that the Pope has been following Madeleine’s abduction closely. There is a reasonable chance we may get a chance to meet the Pontiff and that he will pray for Madeleine. Such a visit would generate huge publicity regarding the family campaign to find Madeleine and will also give Kate and I a great spiritual lift. It will also raise the awareness of missing and abused children generally. We continue to pray that someone will provide the key information that leads us to Madeleine.

kate mccanns dairy

DIARY
SUNDAY, MAY 27: Clarence (Clarence Mitchell, Foreign Office family liaison at the time) spoke to us about a possible trip to the Vatican. It seems that it really is going to happen—main story on the news!

Spoke to Dad. I went for a walk to the beach with Sean and Amelie. Frozen. Beach—slippery, wet feet.

We all had dinner when we got back to the apartment.

We have to keep looking. We have to find you beloved xxxxx.

(Kate signed off the day's entry by drawing a heart with "I LOVE MADELEINE" inside.)

....some of us understand why the mccanns had to see the Pope on 30th May

by Guest 05.02.13 13:14

jd wrote:So gerry mccann has what looks to be perfectly legit passport issued on Sept 2004, 7 years validity on it, used to go the States, obviously used to go to PDL with and its details given to the official police investigation files. gerry mccann having a few days previous to the car hire contract obviously used it to go back to Rothley for a few days and read the Gaspar statement at LPP (imo)

So why on earth has he suddenly used a completely different passport for the car hire? when he doesn't seem to have used it anywhere else. What is so special that the 'other' passport was used just for the car hire contract?

It can't have been to back up his driving license with because the 'other' passport was issued in 2007 so would have had the Rothley address on it as they had been living in Rothley for a year at time of issue. if anything, he would have used the one in the PJ files which was issued in 2004 as this is most likely to have the Queniborough address on it

Could someone else have used theirs as gerry mccann was busy? Possibly, but gerry mccann would have given to whoever his driving license details and address so why omit the passport? None of his friends with all things being equal would know his postcode

Reading gerry mccanns blogs, he was not busy on 27th May 2007 (Sunday). He went for a run in the hills, attended a mass, had lunch, and then stayed in the apartment in the afternoon catching up on emails whilst kate mccann took the twins to the beach. No reason for gerry mccann to have been too busy for someone else to have made the contract on his behalf. The contract was made at 12.30pm, so this fits nicely between after mass and before taking lunch

gerry mccann blog 27th may 2007

Strange day after all the activity during the week. Kate and I started off with an early morning run to the the top of the nearby cliffs. Sean and Amelie were back in kids club and went swimming again. The rest of us attended mass which was very emotional as a priest from RAF Lossiemouth was visiting and further prayers were said for Madeleine. Father Zee-Manuel has also rigged up a powerpoint display projecting a large photograph of Madeleine on to the wall, which he is very proud of and reminds us of the beautiful little girl we are missing so terribly.

There have been some requests for more information ‘about Madeleine’ and this section will be updated very soon. We will also be releasing a very short video of Madeleine taken at the Airport on the day we left for Portugal, Saturday 28 April. Sean and Amelie went to the beach this afternoon with mummy, auntie Trisha and Anne but daddy stayed in the apartment catching up on campaign e-mails, making calls and liaising with Clarence our press officer. The resort is much busier again as it is half-term and there are definitely less journalists here. Many of them have been here since the beginning and are making this journey with us.

The couple of Sunday articles we read did not cover much of what we talked about and seemed to get some of the other stuff wrong! We stated that Sean and Amelie are sleeping in our room (in separate cots) because of other family staying with us and that we were trying to treat them as normal and not be overprotective. This came out that we were so protective we have to have them sleeping in our bed! These inaccuracies are not important in our search for Madeleine and the next phase is being planned currently.

It looks like our planned trips to other European cities will start off in Rome after we learned today that the Pope has been following Madeleine’s abduction closely. There is a reasonable chance we may get a chance to meet the Pontiff and that he will pray for Madeleine. Such a visit would generate huge publicity regarding the family campaign to find Madeleine and will also give Kate and I a great spiritual lift. It will also raise the awareness of missing and abused children generally. We continue to pray that someone will provide the key information that leads us to Madeleine.

kate mccanns dairy

DIARY
SUNDAY, MAY 27: Clarence (Clarence Mitchell, Foreign Office family liaison at the time) spoke to us about a possible trip to the Vatican. It seems that it really is going to happen—main story on the news!

Spoke to Dad. I went for a walk to the beach with Sean and Amelie. Frozen. Beach—slippery, wet feet.

We all had dinner when we got back to the apartment.

We have to keep looking. We have to find you beloved xxxxx.

(Kate signed off the day's entry by drawing a heart with "I LOVE MADELEINE" inside.)

....some of us understand why the mccanns had to see the Pope on 30th May

Why take two toddlers 'swimming' in freezing conditions?

If KM experiences the temperature as freezing, how would these babies have felt?
And yet: to the beach you go, not once (swimming) but twice (freezing, slippery, wet feet)

Responsible parenting, what?

And as for the second passport: if you use a different passport for different activities, maybe you do not want one or more of these activities to come to light? Or you do not want to run the risk of not being able to get on an outbound plane because of one of the passports having been sequesterd during a police inquiry. Who knows.

PS. The beach is not slippery at all. It's a sandy beach. The nearby rocks are very slippery, though.

by Mirage 05.02.13 13:16

So much going on. Busy, busy busy. Meeting the Pope, going for runs, off to the beach, family lunch, answering e-mails, chatting with family.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Oh yes, nearly forgot. Note to self: We have to keep looking.

BTW I love your analytical approach jd.

by jd 05.02.13 13:24

Mirage wrote:So much going on. Busy, busy busy. Meeting the Pope, going for runs, off to the beach, family lunch, answering e-mails, chatting with family.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Oh yes, nearly forgot. Note to self: We must keep searching.

BTW I love your analytical approach JD.

Thanks. Im looking at things that make sense and everything about the car hire is so mysterious and inconsistent and just not logical. It should be just a straight forward contract, name/address/DVLA/passport, there is no reason for false addresses and different passport numbers. I haven't started on the statement inconstancies/who were the additional drivers/who else had a hire car yet!!! Let alone the DNA blood that was found in the car months later. This is just the basic hire contract!!

Considering mccann used the Sept 2004 passport to the States, I see no reason why he would need another one. Their holidays were inside the EU. There is only one reason that is logical for another passport and that is from fact that both kate and gerry mccann have a CATS number

by **tigger** 05.02.13 13:42

I don't know how it works in the UK, but I have to produce my current passport to get a new one (unless one has lost one of course)imo it's only political and business people who are allowed to have more than one passport as they may travel to countries which may refuse them entry if a stamp shows them to have been in an 'enemy' country.
E.g. having an israeli stamp in your passport would probably get you turned away at the Iranian border.

So just to have two passports available as and when needed is a big ????
Unless it's simply that he was given a new one when visiting the UK (as you say, reading the Gaspar statement, looking for DNA of Maddie and the lucky find of that pool photo).
The one on the PJ files may have been kept by the PJ? Or was it just another instance of help given from above - gave him another passport (probably not one with the smiley photo on it) just in case he needed one in a hurry and the PJ still had his. Would that be the passport used when they came back to the UK?

by Guest 05.02.13 13:52

Sorry for repeating myself, but which authority issued GMs 2004-2014 passport? "FCO'?
Who or what is FCO?

And another question: whereas GMs passport has a signature, KMs doesn't.
How does that fit in?

by jd 05.02.13 13:56

tigger wrote:I don't know how it works in the UK, but I have to produce my current passport to get a new one (unless one has lost one of course)imo it's only political and business people who are allowed to have more than one passport as they may travel to countries which may refuse them entry if a stamp shows them to have been in an 'enemy' country.
E.g. having an israeli stamp in your passport would probably get you turned away at the Iranian border.

So just to have two passports available as and when needed is a big ????
Unless it's simply that he was given a new one when visiting the UK (as you say, reading the Gaspar statement, looking for DNA of Maddie and the lucky find of that pool photo).
The one on the PJ files may have been kept by the PJ? Or was it just another instance of help given from above - gave him another passport (probably not one with the smiley photo on it) just in case he needed one in a hurry and the PJ still had his. Would that be the passport used when they came back to the UK?

There were 4 passports in 5A...both mccanns and twins...And why would gerry mccann be taking 2 passports on holiday with him anyway? The one in the PJ files is perfectly legit for a trip to Portugal

They couldn't have given gerry mccann another incase he needed it in a hurry because it was issued in January 2007. (around the time payne booked the holiday) Plus the PJ would not have kept any passport unless they were suspects which at that time they were not. They would have taken the details and scans then given it back. There is a reason for using this other passport number and it will tie in with the Waterloo wallet snatch a few weeks later imo

by Mirage 05.02.13 14:02

jd wrote:
Mirage wrote:So much going on. Busy, busy busy. Meeting the Pope, going for runs, off to the beach, family lunch, answering e-mails, chatting with family.[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Oh yes, nearly forgot. Note to self: We must keep searching.

BTW I love your analytical approach JD.

Thanks. Im looking at things that make sense and everything about the car hire is so mysterious and inconsistent and just not logical. It should be just a straight forward contract, name/address/DVLA/passport, there is no reason for false addresses and different passport numbers. I haven't started on the statement inconstancies/who were the additional drivers/who else had a hire car yet!!! Let alone the DNA blood that was found in the car months later. This is just the basic hire contract!!

Considering mccann used the Sept 2004 passport to the States, I see no reason why he would need another one. Their holidays were inside the EU. There is only one reason that is logical for another passport and that is from fact that both kate and gerry mccann have a CATS number

Yes, the CATS number is where you meet the proverbial brick wall. No explanation has ever been forthcoming for the existence of this file. I have read somewhere that when these files are set up they must provide the reason for doing so (as illogical as that may seem!!!). A benchmark is than laid down for later referral, if need be. IIRC this was instituted by CEOP after the catastrophic Climbié case. Yet, I understand that the file had nothing on it. Just the name and, of course, its allocated number.

Some have mooted this file may have been drawn up post Sept 2007, after the visit of social workers to assess the twins' situation. This has never been clarified to my knowlege. But, in terms of the passport enigma, it certainly has a bearing.

ETA When you meet a brick wall, go round it!

by **tigger** 05.02.13 14:10

Thanks, didn't know it was 7/1/07.
So imo we're back to 2006 when it all started.
The wallet snatch, the very complicated car hire method all being fall-out from something that was much earlier and needed obliterating. Add to that that imo the pool photo without Amelie is kosher, it's really Gerry and really Maddie in OC but some 8 to 9 months earlier than 5/07.
Add Murat - whom the PJ are sure was acquainted with Gerry, add four golf courses, Gerry having been in Portugal to play golf, add JT whose been to Portugal several times before and before 3/5/07 we have quite a lot of connections.

(to add re the CAT file). There must have been contents, perhaps it's easier to delete and/or add material, but deleting an entire file may need more than one persons' authorisation. Seems logical to me. So the contents could have been taken out by one person, or deleting the file would also leave a gap in the numbering system. So that it was safer to leave it.

by Lady-Heather 05.02.13 14:23

Portia wrote:Sorry for repeating myself, but which authority issued GMs 2004-2014 passport? "FCO'?
Who or what is FCO?

And another question: whereas GMs passport has a signature, KMs doesn't.
How does that fit in?

It appears that this 'second' passport may have been issued by the British Embassy in PT. Possibly because the PJ had the originals, or that Gerry had lost his.
This is the most simplest explaination, IMO.

Edited to add: FCO is the foreign & commonwealth office.

by jd 05.02.13 14:25

But it was issued on January 1st 2007...nearly 6 months previous

by Guest 05.02.13 14:32

Lady-Heather wrote:
Portia wrote:Sorry for repeating myself, but which authority issued GMs 2004-2014 passport? "FCO'?
Who or what is FCO?

And another question: whereas GMs passport has a signature, KMs doesn't.
How does that fit in?
It appears that this 'second' passport may have been issued by the British Embassy in PT. Possibly because the PJ had the originals, or that Gerry had lost his.
This is the most simplest explaination, IMO.

Edited to add: FCO is the foreign & commonwealth office.

Sorry, no. The FCO issue is from 2004.

And what explains the absence of a signature on KMs passport?

Just took a good look at the PJs pictures of the 3/4/5 passports in the parents room.

Is that a car key(chain) on the left hand corner of the table? It's greenish.

And right next to the stack of passports: isn't that an elastic band with a little bangle, as taken from Maddies hair?

Sorry to bore you, but I'm just keeping myself occupied waiting for any word from the courtroom.

by Mirage 05.02.13 14:34

jd wrote:But it was issued on January 1st 2007...nearly 6 months previous

I'm not sure why, but the odd date shrieks something. For some reason I keep thinking "Hogmanay".

by Guest 05.02.13 14:39

Mirage wrote:
jd wrote:But it was issued on January 1st 2007...nearly 6 months previous

I'm not sure why, but the odd date shrieks something. For some reason I keep thinking "Hogmanay".

Oh, where are Daniel Craig and Dame Judy when we need them to explain things to us!

by Mirage 05.02.13 14:44

Portia wrote:
Mirage wrote:
jd wrote:But it was issued on January 1st 2007...nearly 6 months previous

I'm not sure why, but the odd date shrieks something. For some reason I keep thinking "Hogmanay".

Oh, where are Daniel Craig and Dame Judy when we need them to explain things to us!

Exactly!! It's just such an odd date that I tried a bit of lateral thinking whilst putting the kettle on. I'm just on pins waiting for a snippet of news, like you.

by **tigger** 05.02.13 14:47

jd wrote:But it was issued on January 1st 2007...nearly 6 months previous

But that's a public holiday! How???

In an emergency you might get one from the Consulate, but a laissez-passer, not a proper passport.

by bobbin 05.02.13 14:49

Portia wrote:
Lady-Heather wrote:
Portia wrote:Sorry for repeating myself, but which authority issued GMs 2004-2014 passport? "FCO'?
Who or what is FCO?

And another question: whereas GMs passport has a signature, KMs doesn't.
How does that fit in?
It appears that this 'second' passport may have been issued by the British Embassy in PT. Possibly because the PJ had the originals, or that Gerry had lost his.
This is the most simplest explaination, IMO.

Edited to add: FCO is the foreign & commonwealth office.

Sorry, no. The FCO issue is from 2004.

And what explains the absence of a signature on KMs passport?

Just took a good look at the PJs pictures of the 3/4/5 passports in the parents room.

Is that a car key(chain) on the left hand corner of the table? It's greenish.

And right next to the stack of passports: isn't that an elastic band with a little bangle, as taken from Maddies hair?

Sorry to bore you, but I'm just keeping myself occupied waiting for any word from the courtroom.

Portia, could you put the picture up, it may be worth a closer look again. Thank you.

by jd 05.02.13 14:53

tigger wrote:
jd wrote:But it was issued on January 1st 2007...nearly 6 months previous

But that's a public holiday! How???

In an emergency you might get one from the Consulate, but a laissez-passer, not a proper passport.

This is what makes it even more strange and curious....Not of this adds up

@Portia It'll be good to see the photo again

by Lady-Heather 05.02.13 14:58

Portia wrote:

Sorry, no. The FCO issue is from 2004.

And what explains the absence of a signature on KMs passport?

Just took a good look at the PJs pictures of the 3/4/5 passports in the parents room.

Is that a car key(chain) on the left hand corner of the table? It's greenish.

And right next to the stack of passports: isn't that an elastic band with a little bangle, as taken from Maddies hair?

Sorry to bore you, but I'm just keeping myself occupied waiting for any word from the courtroom.

Yes you're right. Can anyone remember if they were living in Holland in Aug/Sept '04? That would explain the FCO issuing the passport. Perhaps GM has another, issued by UKPA which bears the passport number on the hire-agreement. AFAIK it's possible to have a second passport if you're a frequent traveller.

Yes, where is KM signature on the copy? Could it have been 'shopped out? I noticed as well that the Authority is 'UNITED KINGDOM PASSPORT AGENCY'. Don't they usually just say UKPA? And yes - neither photo complies with the rules for passport photos which must be "facing forward and looking straight at the camera", and "with a neutral expression and your mouth closed". Are the photos 'shopped in? [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

The car rental stating the passport was issued on 01/01/07 is odd. Could it just be poor record-entering on behalf of the hirers?

by Guest 05.02.13 15:05

bobbin wrote:
Portia wrote:
Lady-Heather wrote:
Portia wrote:Sorry for repeating myself, but which authority issued GMs 2004-2014 passport? "FCO'?
Who or what is FCO?

And another question: whereas GMs passport has a signature, KMs doesn't.
How does that fit in?
It appears that this 'second' passport may have been issued by the British Embassy in PT. Possibly because the PJ had the originals, or that Gerry had lost his.
This is the most simplest explaination, IMO.

Edited to add: FCO is the foreign & commonwealth office.

Sorry, no. The FCO issue is from 2004.

And what explains the absence of a signature on KMs passport?

Just took a good look at the PJs pictures of the 3/4/5 passports in the parents room.

Is that a car key(chain) on the left hand corner of the table? It's greenish.

And right next to the stack of passports: isn't that an elastic band with a little bangle, as taken from Maddies hair?

Sorry to bore you, but I'm just keeping myself occupied waiting for any word from the courtroom.

Portia, could you put the picture up, it may be worth a closer look again. Thank you.

Bobbin, sorry, I was just browsing, not paying attention to the exact location. I came upon a double picture in colour from the PJ files, after searching 'passports' in the Forums search machine, and then pushing the 4rth post " why are there only 4 passports on the bedside table'.

Tried to retrieve the pictures these past couple of minutes but couldn't, I'm afraid. The one on top shows the parents bedroom, beds shoved side by side, GM's beige buttoned trousers on the one bed that was apperently slept in, KMs Birkenstocks half under the other (which was still made up and not used). This picture has a number 12. The lower one, with the passports, the key(chain) and the bangle has a number 18. Hope I got it right. Sorry I can't do any better, helpless with a PC.

by jd 05.02.13 15:07

Mrs Renwick remembers sitting by the pool with Mrs McCann during a holiday in Majorca six or seven years ago and lamenting their mutual inability to have children. In late 2002, however, Mrs McCann finally became pregnant with Madeleine through IVF, and in 2004 became pregnant again with twins. The McCanns spent that year in Amsterdam, where he was working on new heart-imaging techniques.
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Gerry and Kate McCann held a press conference in Amsterdam on the final leg of a two-day trip in Europe raising awareness of Madeleine's disappearance........The McCanns spent a year living in the city in 2004 with Madeleine, who was abducted in the Algarve 35 days ago.
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Maddie has a datestamp of March 2004 in her passport

by Inspectorfrost 05.02.13 15:07

@LH
They lived in Amsterdam in 2004 so that's probably right.

KM's passport is quite old so perhaps the rules were different then, and there is a signature, look at the top of the image showing a different page.

ETA, Oops JD I didn't see your post there.