Re: McCanns Hire Car Contract

by HelenMeg 23.02.14 12:14

I was just researching golf clubs in the area of Luz and tried to access this link:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

But it has gone offline. Maybe something or nothing - probably nothing...

by HelenMeg 23.02.14 12:27

Golf clubs. There are 5 golf clubs near to Luz within 20 minutes drive. If Danny Spillane, the pro at Rothley Park Golf Club had been out and worked at one of them then of course he would have recommended
the area to members at Rothley Park. He may even get some commission for doing so. Hence we are likely to see many parties of golfers from Rothley take an annual holiday in the area.
I would be surprised that GM had not been on such a holiday prior to his visit to Luz in May 2007. Very surprised.
The golf clubs would have been ideal to hold meetings at. I imagine a lot of business was done there. If RM did co-ordinate some events and use his contacts to invite people out to various events in Luz then he would probably have had links to the golf clubs, and potentially Danny. GM denied knowing RM previously but my guess is that he certainly did know him, through the organisation of the weeks event at the OC. He just did not wish to admit it and was caught on the hop with that particular question.

by Mirage 23.02.14 13:04

HelenMeg wrote:Golf clubs. There are 5 golf clubs near to Luz within 20 minutes drive. If Danny Spillane, the pro at Rothley Park Golf Club had been out and worked at one of them then of course he would have recommended
the area to members at Rothley Park. He may even get some commission for doing so. Hence we are likely to see many parties of golfers from Rothley take an annual holiday in the area.
I would be surprised that GM had not been on such a holiday prior to his visit to Luz in May 2007. Very surprised.
The golf clubs would have been ideal to hold meetings at. I imagine a lot of business was done there. If RM did co-ordinate some events and use his contacts to invite people out to various events in Luz then he would probably have had links to the golf clubs, and potentially Danny. GM denied knowing RM previously but my guess is that he certainly did know him, through the organisation of the weeks event at the OC. He just did not wish to admit it and was caught on the hop with that particular question.

i love that video of GM. The little cough. The eyes go down but dart about. Face takes on that bleached-of-colour look so redolent of his arguido-isation ceremony at Portimao police station. I am always struck by the complete insouciance of his missus on such occasions where he is nearing meltdown. She looks as if she is practising transcendental meditation and has loosed her mind from earthly concerns.

by Guest 23.02.14 13:11

There is some more about golf clubs and Robert Murat / GM here:-

I think the golfing contacts and locations both in UK and Portugal are absolutely key.

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sorry this is going off-topic now isn't it roses

by Mirage 23.02.14 13:18

OT I know but can't resist. I went to hear Martin Jarvis reading Richmal Compton's Just William stories not long ago. They were actually being recorded for Radio 4 so I was surprised when he stopped suddenly. Wearing an amused smile, he confided to the audience that a little boy had once piped up in the middle of a reading: "Why does your mouth look like a dog's bottom when you do William's voice?"
As we all fell about laughing I suddenly thought of Gerry McCann on the 'Did you know Murat?' video.

by HelenMeg 23.02.14 13:21

Mirage wrote:OT I know but can't resist. I went to hear Martin Jarvis reading Richmal Compton's Just William stories not long ago. They were actually being recorded for Radio 4 so I was surprised when he stopped suddenly. Wearing an amused smile, he confided to the audience that a little boy had once piped up in the middle of a reading: "Why does your mouth look like a dog's bottom when you do William's voice?"
As we all fell about laughing I suddenly thought of Gerry McCann on the 'Did you know Murat?' video.

The dog's bottom is quite apt for Gerry, in relation to what comes out of his mouth.

by **Tony Bennett** 23.02.14 13:32

HelenMeg wrote:Golf clubs. There are 5 golf clubs near to Luz within 20 minutes drive. If Danny Spillane, the pro at Rothley Park Golf Club had been out and worked at one of them then of course he would have recommended the area to members at Rothley Park...The golf clubs would have been ideal to hold meetings at. I imagine a lot of business was done there. If RM did co-ordinate some events and use his contacts to invite people out to various events in Luz then he would probably have had links to the golf clubs...

Yes, this is a good point.

And it brings us right back to the one golf club we should be most interested in, namely the Palmeras Golf Club. And that's because Robert Murat blatantly lied about being there on 3 May, when he was first questioned by the PJ on 15 May. His excuse of 'being too tired to remember the truth' is risible - especially as he lied about 16 other things.

What got him was that the PJ had tracked his mobile 'phone to a mobile 'phone mast at Odiaxere that afternoon - very near the Palmeras Golf Glub. He had to admit he was there when re-interviewed by the police on 10 & 11 July.

In this connection it is important to study a map. The Palmeras is not a golf club close to Praia da Luz. Lagos is several miles EAST of Praia da Luz. And the Palmeras Golf Club is several miles FURTHER EAST. It's about 15-20 miles from Praia da Luz - say 25 minutes' drive.

So a key question in all this is: for what possible reason, in relation to the reported disappearance of Madeleine McCann, would Robert Murat want to lie about being at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternoon?

According to Murat, he was only there to talk with Michael Walczuk, his girlfriend, and the da Silvas, about Romigen, allegedly a new property management company. Why would they all need to go to a Golf Club 25 minutes' drive away when they all lived and worked in Praia da Luz?

Was Murat at the Palmeras Golf Club on the afternoon of 3 May?

YES.

Was he there just to meet with Michaela and the da Silvas.

In the immortal words of Wendy Murphy: 'I'm not buying it'.

+++++++++++++++++

To aid further consideration of who might have been at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternnon (3 May), here are some notes that I and others have written in the past:

====

1. It is admitted by Murat, that he, Michaela Walczuk and the da Silvas were at the Palmares Golf Club on the afternoon of 3 May.

2. (Murat's revised version of what he did on 3 May): After lunch, Murat and Michaela had gone to the Marina in Lagos where they met with Jorge and his son again. But contrary to his previous claims, Michaela’s daughter, C______, did not accompany them that day. Now Murat said they went to the Palmares Golf Club in the afternoon, where they remained until the time to pick up C______, i.e. around 3.30pm. Murat said that Jorge and his son Jason were again in the car. He dropped them off near the Post Office on the way to pick up C______. The three of them then drove to Michaela’s house for 3.45pm and stayed there until around 7.30pm. He says he then drove straight home and didn’t stop anywhere en route.

3. (Posted by a poster on 'Maddie Case Files): “The official line from Murat is that he was talking to da Silva to persuade him to invest in his and Michaela’s venture: ‘Romigen’. Yet to this day, Romigen appears to be no more than a ‘shell’ company, just a paper idea for selling property via the internet. It doesn’t seem as though the company required any significant cash injection. And if we look at da Silva’s statements, if Murat had any intention of buying land to make money out of it, this was never made apparent to da Silva even after several hours of apparently unprofitable conversation - or rather, so it's been said, of long and puzzling silences.

“On his first full day back in Praia da Luz (2 May), Murat did manage to get in touch with da Silva at the shop. He took da Silva and his two sons to a café bar for the first round of talking. We know that Murat rang his lawyer no less than four times that day. In addition, in da Silva’s first statement to the PJ, he said that: “They did some talking in Mrs Murat’s VW Transporter”. He says rather vaguely that the discussion was ‘to develop some details of the intended business’.
“The following day (3 May), Murat, Michaela, Jorge da Silva and his sons met again for a long session on 3 May, at the Palmares Golf Club. It is hard to understand from Jorge da Silva’s account what all these meetings were really about”.

4. (more about Murat): It is clear that by the date of that article [14 May], many serious rumours were in full swing about Murat and his friend Malinka. We might note that that weekend, Dr Gerald and Dr Kate McCann were discussing a possible visit to the Roman Catholic shrine at Fatima in Ourém. The 400 miles that Murat had driven would have enabled him to travel to Fatima and back. Or he could have reached Lisbon and back within the 400 miles, or even Huelva in Spain and back. Did someone want to meet him covertly and insist that he travelled in a hired car? Or did Murat need to meet someone?

One additional mystery is that Murat used his ex-wife's Norfolk address in Hockering, Norfolk, when he hired the Hyundai Getz, which he ‘needed in a hurry’ from Auto Rent. Why not give his local address or, if he wanted to give an English address, that of one of his sisters in Devon? The questions about Murat’s actions just seem to pile up.
The police then asked an important question in the interview. They wanted to know why he had apparently not made any calls on his mobile ’phone between 3.00pm on Wednesday 2 May and late on the evening of Thursday 3 May. Murat couldn’t explain it except to say that he was ‘with Michaela most of the time and she was the person he most frequently ’phoned’.

The significance of this is that the mobile ’phone records of Dr Gerald McCann, released by the Portuguese Police, appeared to show that he switched off his mobile ’phone within six minutes of Murat doing so and switched it on again some 32 hours later again within six minutes of Murat doing likewise. It is a coincidence of timing that cries out for an explanation. One suggestion made is that they both used Pay-as-you-Go mobiles during this period, discarding them later.

LINKS TO THE PALMERAS GOLF CLUB:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (includes map of the area)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The question this raises is this. Was Robert Murat at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternoon to discuss matters relating to Madeleine McCann? And if so, who else was there?

by HelenMeg 23.02.14 15:38

Just trying to jot down a bit of a timeline for RM:

2nd May:
Met Malika at Batista - then took Malinka and Michaela to his Mum's house for more talks
Met his lawyer that morning too and then again in afternoon
Switched mobile phone off at 3pm for rest of day (within 6 mins of GM's mobile being switched off)

3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

need to build on this - was it possible that Gerry met him at the golf club on 3rd May afternoon. I have suspected previously that GM was superimposed on last photo in order to prove he was at OC instead of elsewhere.
I am wondering GM's phone was switched off at 3pm 3rd May so that he could go somewhere without being traced by signal.

Wondering whether we should start a new thread of RM's movements - or is there one out there...

by HelenMeg 23.02.14 15:45

HelenMeg wrote:Just trying to jot down a bit of a timeline for RM:

1st May: Back to PdL after 10 days in Exeter

2nd May:
Met Malika at Batista - then took Malinka and Michaela to his Mum's house for more talks
Met his lawyer that morning too and then again in afternoon
Switched mobile phone off at 3pm for rest of day (within 6 mins of GM's mobile being switched off)

3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

need to build on this - was it possible that Gerry met him at the golf club on 3rd May afternoon. I have suspected previously that GM was superimposed on last photo in order to prove he was at OC instead of elsewhere.
I am wondering GM's phone was switched off at 3pm 3rd May so that he could go somewhere without being traced by signal.

Wondering whether we should start a new thread of RM's movements - or is there one out there...

by HelenMeg 23.02.14 15:46

HelenMeg wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:Just trying to jot down a bit of a timeline for RM:

1st May: Back to PdL after 10 days in Exeter

2nd May:
Met Malika at Batista - then took Malinka and Michaela to his Mum's house for more talks
Met his lawyer that morning too and then again in afternoon
Switched mobile phone off at 3pm for rest of day (within 6 mins of GM's mobile being switched off)

3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

need to build on this - was it possible that Gerry met him at the golf club on 3rd May afternoon. I have suspected previously that GM was superimposed on last photo in order to prove he was at OC instead of elsewhere.
I am wondering GM's phone was switched off at 3pm 3rd May so that he could go somewhere without being traced by signal.

Wondering whether we should start a new thread of RM's movements - or is there one out there...

Moving this post to a more relevant thread as this is about Hire Car - apologies....

by Hicks 28.02.14 21:30

HelenMeg wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:Just trying to jot down a bit of a timeline for RM:

1st May: Back to PdL after 10 days in Exeter

2nd May:
Met Malika at Batista - then took Malinka and Michaela to his Mum's house for more talks
Met his lawyer that morning too and then again in afternoon
Switched mobile phone off at 3pm for rest of day (within 6 mins of GM's mobile being switched off)

3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

need to build on this - was it possible that Gerry met him at the golf club on 3rd May afternoon. I have suspected previously that GM was superimposed on last photo in order to prove he was at OC instead of elsewhere.
I am wondering GM's phone was switched off at 3pm 3rd May so that he could go somewhere without being traced by signal.

Wondering whether we should start a new thread of RM's movements - or is there one out there...
Moving this post to a more relevant thread as this is about Hire Car - apologies....

HelenMeg, I really think you have something here.

Candyfloss, could you tell me where you have put this post? Thank you.

by Guest 28.02.14 21:35

Sorry, don't know what you mean Hicks, are you referring to HelenMeg's last post in that quote, as she must have moved it herself.

by Watching 01.03.14 7:18

tigger wrote:Article below interesting in many ways. Especially since the PJ wanted to search Rothley Towers. However, putting it in the car topic because of the tracking device.

police are bugging our phone calls and emails'
By DAN NEWLING
Last updated at 12:14 20 September 2007

Kate and Gerry McCann are convinced they are being bugged by British police.

They believe their mobile phone calls and emails are being monitored by detectives collecting evidence on behalf of the Portuguese investigation.

As a result they and some of their friends and supporters go to great lengths to avoid being overheard when they are discussing sensitive issues in the case of missing Madeleine, meetforing face-to-face or talking on landlines which they believe to be harder to intercept.

Surveillance targets? Gerry and Kate McCann, pictured yesterday, are being ultra cautious about their conversations, say friends.

Their suspicions were first aroused by questions they were asked by Portuguese police which were based on information that could only have come from private conversations.

During lengthy interviews when they were first made suspects, they were asked questions which implied they had conspired during mobile phone conversations to hide who was at the dinner party - and when - on the night that Madeleine disappeared.

They are also thought to have been asked why the toddler's Cuddle Cat toy was washed twice - information that could well have come from surveillance of phone calls.

Although the couple have been back home in Rothley, Leicestershire, for 12 days, they fear the practice is continuing. A source close to the family said:

"The assumption is that it is taking place. Everyone involved is very careful, particularly with their mobile phone calls and what they say.

"There was an assumption from the early days that their mobile communications were unsafe and could be listened to.

"They believed it in Portugal and they believe that is still happening now that they are back home.
"Gerry will often refuse to talk on a mobile phone - he prefers to use landlines as he considers that they are safer. They feel they are being watched at all times."

The source added: "It would be entirely wrong to say that their phone conversations are in any way furtive as a result of this.
'"
"They are entirely innocent and have nothing whatsoever to hide - but they are being understandably cautious about what they say on the phone and in emails.

"They would obviously not want to disclose the way in which they plan to conduct their defence."

What sticks out here like a sore thumb is that last line:

"They would obviously not want to disclose the way in which they plan to conduct their defence."

Yeah, that and a whole lot more they have not wanted to disclose. From the start this case has not been about finding a missing child, it's been about making sure she wasn't found, about the protection of the pair, and building a legal defence for Mr & Mrs should that (now long overdue) day in Court arrive.

by **sharonl** 01.03.14 7:31

Tony Bennett wrote:
HelenMeg wrote:Golf clubs. There are 5 golf clubs near to Luz within 20 minutes drive. If Danny Spillane, the pro at Rothley Park Golf Club had been out and worked at one of them then of course he would have recommended the area to members at Rothley Park...The golf clubs would have been ideal to hold meetings at. I imagine a lot of business was done there. If RM did co-ordinate some events and use his contacts to invite people out to various events in Luz then he would probably have had links to the golf clubs...
Yes, this is a good point.

And it brings us right back to the one golf club we should be most interested in, namely the Palmeras Golf Club. And that's because Robert Murat blatantly lied about being there on 3 May, when he was first questioned by the PJ on 15 May. His excuse of 'being too tired to remember the truth' is risible - especially as he lied about 16 other things.

What got him was that the PJ had tracked his mobile 'phone to a mobile 'phone mast at Odiaxere that afternoon - very near the Palmeras Golf Glub. He had to admit he was there when re-interviewed by the police on 10 & 11 July.

In this connection it is important to study a map. The Palmeras is not a golf club close to Praia da Luz. Lagos is several miles EAST of Praia da Luz. And the Palmeras Golf Club is several miles FURTHER EAST. It's about 15-20 miles from Praia da Luz - say 25 minutes' drive.

So a key question in all this is: for what possible reason, in relation to the reported disappearance of Madeleine McCann, would Robert Murat want to lie about being at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternoon?

According to Murat, he was only there to talk with Michael Walczuk, his girlfriend, and the da Silvas, about Romigen, allegedly a new property management company. Why would they all need to go to a Golf Club 25 minutes' drive away when they all lived and worked in Praia da Luz?

Was Murat at the Palmeras Golf Club on the afternoon of 3 May?

YES.

Was he there just to meet with Michaela and the da Silvas.

In the immortal words of Wendy Murphy: 'I'm not buying it'.

+++++++++++++++++

To aid further consideration of who might have been at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternnon (3 May), here are some notes that I and others have written in the past:

====

1. It is admitted by Murat, that he, Michaela Walczuk and the da Silvas were at the Palmares Golf Club on the afternoon of 3 May.

2. (Murat's revised version of what he did on 3 May): After lunch, Murat and Michaela had gone to the Marina in Lagos where they met with Jorge and his son again. But contrary to his previous claims, Michaela’s daughter, C______, did not accompany them that day. Now Murat said they went to the Palmares Golf Club in the afternoon, where they remained until the time to pick up C______, i.e. around 3.30pm. Murat said that Jorge and his son Jason were again in the car. He dropped them off near the Post Office on the way to pick up C______. The three of them then drove to Michaela’s house for 3.45pm and stayed there until around 7.30pm. He says he then drove straight home and didn’t stop anywhere en route.

3. (Posted by a poster on 'Maddie Case Files): “The official line from Murat is that he was talking to da Silva to persuade him to invest in his and Michaela’s venture: ‘Romigen’. Yet to this day, Romigen appears to be no more than a ‘shell’ company, just a paper idea for selling property via the internet. It doesn’t seem as though the company required any significant cash injection. And if we look at da Silva’s statements, if Murat had any intention of buying land to make money out of it, this was never made apparent to da Silva even after several hours of apparently unprofitable conversation - or rather, so it's been said, of long and puzzling silences.

“On his first full day back in Praia da Luz (2 May), Murat did manage to get in touch with da Silva at the shop. He took da Silva and his two sons to a café bar for the first round of talking. We know that Murat rang his lawyer no less than four times that day. In addition, in da Silva’s first statement to the PJ, he said that: “They did some talking in Mrs Murat’s VW Transporter”. He says rather vaguely that the discussion was ‘to develop some details of the intended business’.
“The following day (3 May), Murat, Michaela, Jorge da Silva and his sons met again for a long session on 3 May, at the Palmares Golf Club. It is hard to understand from Jorge da Silva’s account what all these meetings were really about”.

4. (more about Murat): It is clear that by the date of that article [14 May], many serious rumours were in full swing about Murat and his friend Malinka. We might note that that weekend, Dr Gerald and Dr Kate McCann were discussing a possible visit to the Roman Catholic shrine at Fatima in Ourém. The 400 miles that Murat had driven would have enabled him to travel to Fatima and back. Or he could have reached Lisbon and back within the 400 miles, or even Huelva in Spain and back. Did someone want to meet him covertly and insist that he travelled in a hired car? Or did Murat need to meet someone?

One additional mystery is that Murat used his ex-wife's Norfolk address in Hockering, Norfolk, when he hired the Hyundai Getz, which he ‘needed in a hurry’ from Auto Rent. Why not give his local address or, if he wanted to give an English address, that of one of his sisters in Devon? The questions about Murat’s actions just seem to pile up.
The police then asked an important question in the interview. They wanted to know why he had apparently not made any calls on his mobile ’phone between 3.00pm on Wednesday 2 May and late on the evening of Thursday 3 May. Murat couldn’t explain it except to say that he was ‘with Michaela most of the time and she was the person he most frequently ’phoned’.

The significance of this is that the mobile ’phone records of Dr Gerald McCann, released by the Portuguese Police, appeared to show that he switched off his mobile ’phone within six minutes of Murat doing so and switched it on again some 32 hours later again within six minutes of Murat doing likewise. It is a coincidence of timing that cries out for an explanation. One suggestion made is that they both used Pay-as-you-Go mobiles during this period, discarding them later.

LINKS TO THE PALMERAS GOLF CLUB:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (includes map of the area)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The question this raises is this. Was Robert Murat at the Palmeras Golf Club that afternoon to discuss matters relating to Madeleine McCann? And if so, who else was there?

Danny Spillane - Club Professional

Danny joined Rothley Park as the Head Professional in the Spring of 2002, although he was not a stranger to the Club, having spent 5 years here as assistant to Peter Dolan and Andy Collins.

A local lad, Danny learnt his golf at nearby Lingdale Golf Club. During his amateur career notable achievements included County Boys Champion, Midland Boys Champion, County Boys Captain and youngest ever winner of the Club Championship at 15 years old.

Turning professional at 17, Danny soon moved from Lingdale to Rothley Park , where under the then Club Pro Peter Dolan he completed his training becoming one of the countries youngest qualified Professionals at 20 years old. Several Pro/Am success’ and a County Assistants championship were won during this time.

From Rothley to Portugal, where a role of teaching professional at the Parque da Floresta resort was Danny’s next port of call. This role progressed to him becoming the Director of Golf overseeing the resorts £1 million turnover at the age of 24! Whilst in Portugal, Danny helped to run the Henry Cooper Charity Golf Classic and controlled a £1.5 million renovation to the course.

On returning to the U.K. Danny joined Stapleford Park as Head Professional. This was a brand new course designed by Donald Steel, an AA 4 red star hotel, which at the time was part of the Carnegie Club including Skibo Castle and Carnegie Abbey as fellow resorts.

Danny brings a wealth of experience to the role of Club Professional and is well steeped in the history of the Club having spent the early part of his career here.

by Guest 01.03.14 7:39

sharonl wrote:
From Rothley to Portugal, where a role of teaching professional at the Parque da Floresta resort was Danny’s next port of call. This role progressed to him becoming the Director of Golf overseeing the resorts £1 million turnover at the age of 24! Whilst in Portugal, Danny helped to run the Henry Cooper Charity Golf Classic and controlled a £1.5 million renovation to the course.

Certainly a meteoric rise just for knowing one end of a golf racquet from the other. Somebody's pet poodle?

by Hicks 01.03.14 10:24

I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely.
If Murat and McCann were at the Golf club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time.( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo.
I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

I need to know, is the golf club mentioned above by the sea?

by sami 01.03.14 10:42

Hicks wrote:I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely.
If Murat and McCann were at the Golf club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time.( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo.
I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

I need to know, is the golf club mentioned above by the sea?

It's not called a beach and golf resort for nothing ! The website has some wonderful photos of the course, completely with equally wonderful sea views.
WELCOME TO ONYRIA PALMARES BEACH & GOLF RESORT

by Hicks 01.03.14 10:56

sami wrote:
Hicks wrote:I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely.
If Murat and McCann were at the Golf club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time.( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo.
I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

I need to know, is the golf club mentioned above by the sea?

It's not called a beach and golf resort for nothing ! The website has some wonderful photos of the course, completely with equally wonderful sea views.
WELCOME TO ONYRIA PALMARES BEACH & GOLF RESORT

Okay thanks. I need a coffee to wake me up! The reason I asked, I know this is not very scientific but I had a dream/vision that M was taken through , what I assumed was s golf course. I was stood on a cliff-with I think was a golf course behind me- watching her body being dumped at sea by someone in small black boat or dinghy. Next question is...if I were stood on a cliff near that golf course and I looked down to the water would I see large rocks sticking out of the water? That's what I saw. It's the reason I joined this forum. Someone else on this forum PM me to say that they had the exact vision, every detail exact. Spooky!

by **Tony Bennett** 01.03.14 11:19

Hicks wrote:I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely. If Murat and McCann were at the Golf Club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time. ( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo. I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

HelenMeg also wrote:

Just trying to jot down a bit of a timeline for RM:
3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

need to build on this - was it possible that Gerry met him at the Golf Club on 3rd May afternoon. I have suspected previously that GM was superimposed on last photo in order to prove he was at OC instead of elsewhere. I am wondering GM's phone was switched off at 3pm 3rd May so that he could go somewhere without being traced by signal.

++++++++++++++++++++++

For sure there are some very interesting and pertinent facts being discussed on this thread.

Both Hicks and HelenMeg make good and forceful points.

However, both have IMO introduced an unnecessary complication - claiming that the 'Last Photo' was forged [HICKS: "The pool photo was 'created'..."; HELENMEG: "GM was superimposed on the last photo"].

There is a simpler explanation that accords with the known facts and does not require any manipulation, forgery etc. of the 'Last Photo'.

As I've maintained on another thread, the evidence is that the 'Last Photo' is GENUINE. To take one very important aspect: the length and direction of the shadows of Gerry McCann and his two children are completely consistent, of very short length, and almost impossible to forge. In addition, some serious photographic experts have maintained that they see no evidence of the 'Last Photo' being photoshopped - with which I humbly agree.

The explanation which meets the concerns on this thread and the known data is simple, namely that the 'Last Photo' was taken on a different day.

Sunday 29 April and Monday 30 April are the prime candidates for when the photo might really have been taken. It was hot and sunny on those two days, while the rest of the week was cloudier and cooler. Furthermore, the extreme shortness of the shadows suggests that the 'Last Photo' must have been taken close to when the sun was at its highest that week, namely around 1.35pm according to astronomical experts (as confirmed on astronomy websites).

by Guest 01.03.14 11:24

Yes I think the last photo could be genuine but not taken on 3rd May.

However, if it was taken only a few days earlier, why was it not readily available when Madeleine was reported missing and why does she appear so different to the child holding the tennis balls?

I'm sorry that this is going off topic - perhaps it could be transferred to another one specifically about the photo.

by sami 01.03.14 11:31

Hicks wrote:
sami wrote:
Hicks wrote:I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely.
If Murat and McCann were at the Golf club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time.( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo.
I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

I need to know, is the golf club mentioned above by the sea?

It's not called a beach and golf resort for nothing ! The website has some wonderful photos of the course, completely with equally wonderful sea views.
WELCOME TO ONYRIA PALMARES BEACH & GOLF RESORT
Okay thanks. I need a coffee to wake me up! The reason I asked, I know this is not very scientific but I had a dream/vision that M was taken through , what I assumed was s golf course. I was stood on a cliff-with I think was a golf course behind me- watching her body being dumped at sea by someone in small black boat or dinghy. Next question is...if I were stood on a cliff near that golf course and I looked down to the water would I see large rocks sticking out of the water? That's what I saw. It's the reason I joined this forum. Someone else on this forum PM me to say that they had the exact vision, every detail exact. Spooky!

Hicks I'm sorry, I was not directing a sarcastic response at you, if you look at the photos on the website there is extensive sea frontage, I was directing the remark in that way - it is most definitely a beach resort. roses

by Doug D 01.03.14 11:42

Tony’s post 23/2/13 1.32pm

‘And it brings us right back to the one golf club we should be most interested in, namely the Palmeras Golf Club. And that's because Robert Murat blatantly lied about being there on 3 May, when he was first questioned by the PJ on 15 May. His excuse of 'being too tired to remember the truth' is risible - especially as he lied about 16 other things.

What got him was that the PJ had tracked his mobile 'phone to a mobile 'phone mast at Odiaxere that afternoon - very near the Palmeras Golf Glub. He had to admit he was there when re-interviewed by the police on 10 & 11 July.’

Helen Meg timeline:

2nd May:
Met Malika at Batista - then took Malinka and Michaela to his Mum's house for more talks
Met his lawyer that morning too and then again in afternoon
Switched mobile phone off at 3pm for rest of day (within 6 mins of GM's mobile being switched off)

3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

If a mobile is switched off (we’re talking 2007 don’t forget) how can it be tracked or does it constantly emit a signal like the present day i-phones?
If RM could be tracked when his phone was off, then so presumably could GM.

HelenMeg
Where have you taken the thread or haven’t you got round to it yet as I couldn’t find it?

by worriedmum 01.03.14 11:56

How does this golf club fit in geographically with the phone pings data? I seem to remember Gerry did not travel back on a direct route when he returned from a trip. I think it was Washington?

It would be interesting to mark a map with data about dates of phone pings and places that have been visited....

by **Tony Bennett** 01.03.14 12:22

No Fate Worse Than De'Ath wrote:Yes I think the last photo could be genuine but not taken on 3rd May.

However, if it was taken only a few days earlier, why was it not readily available when Madeleine was reported missing and why does she appear so different to the child holding the tennis balls?

REPLY: A question that AFAIK the McCanns have never answered satisfactorily - or even at all.

I'm sorry that this is going off topic - perhaps it could be transferred to another one specifically about the photo.

REPLY: The original queries on the thread about the McCanns' hire car contract(s) have mostly been cleared up e.g. there was only ever one passport, and Gerry was smiling and Kate not face on for the passport photos, contrary to today's regulations, simply because they obtained their passports before the new regulations came in. The thread then moved to >>> Robert Murat's hire contract and then >>> to more general issues re Murat's statements during May 2007. I do not know if the title thread can be changed, but for several pages now we've been discussing different issues - serendipity has taken us to where we are now

by **Tony Bennett** 01.03.14 12:26

Doug D wrote:If a mobile is switched off (we’re talking 2007 don’t forget) how can it be tracked or does it constantly emit a signal like the present day i-phones?

REPLY: A GPS or other device can indeed track where a mobile 'phone is, even if it is switched off.

If RM could be tracked when his phone was off, then so presumably could GM.

REPLY: Yes. But of course, he could have left his mobile 'phone somewhere, whilst actually being elsewhere (say, at the Gold Club).

Another very important incident in this whole case is a telephone call to Robert Murat from a British police officer who gives his name as 'Phil'. It takes place on the very day Murat is taken in for questioning (15 May). The subject of the 'phone call is "What information can the police get from my mobile 'phone?" The British police officer explains to him (it's in the released PJ files by the way). I would therefore ask the question: 'Why would Murat want to know about this?' And I would answer my own question as follows: 'Because he was very worried about what the PJ could find out about his ACTUAL movements on May 1, 2 and 3'

by **Tony Bennett** 01.03.14 12:31

worriedmum wrote:How does this golf club fit in geographically with the phone pings data? It would be interesting to mark a map with data about dates of phone pings and places that have been visited....

I think I posted a link to a map up the thread. Try googling : Palmeras, Golf, Club, Map.

Basicially, Murat's mobile 'phone pings put him in the vicinity of Odiaxere in the early afternoon of 3 May.

Odiaxere is EAST of Lagos. Praia da Luz is WEST of Lagos. They are about 15-20 miles apart - say 25 minutes by car.

The Palmeras Golf Club is right next to Odiaxere.

I totally agree that a map on this thread would be a great asset, but not being a tecchie, I can't do it

by HelenMeg 01.03.14 13:26

Doug D wrote:Tony’s post 23/2/13 1.32pm

‘And it brings us right back to the one golf club we should be most interested in, namely the Palmeras Golf Club. And that's because Robert Murat blatantly lied about being there on 3 May, when he was first questioned by the PJ on 15 May. His excuse of 'being too tired to remember the truth' is risible - especially as he lied about 16 other things.

What got him was that the PJ had tracked his mobile 'phone to a mobile 'phone mast at Odiaxere that afternoon - very near the Palmeras Golf Glub. He had to admit he was there when re-interviewed by the police on 10 & 11 July.’

Helen Meg timeline:

2nd May:
Met Malika at Batista - then took Malinka and Michaela to his Mum's house for more talks
Met his lawyer that morning too and then again in afternoon
Switched mobile phone off at 3pm for rest of day (within 6 mins of GM's mobile being switched off)

3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

If a mobile is switched off (we’re talking 2007 don’t forget) how can it be tracked or does it constantly emit a signal like the present day i-phones?
If RM could be tracked when his phone was off, then so presumably could GM.

HelenMeg
Where have you taken the thread or haven’t you got round to it yet as I couldn’t find it?

Hi I thought I'd best take a copy of the post and put it on Rober Murat revisited I think.. wil take a look

by Doug D 01.03.14 13:36

Thanks Tony.

I didn't know, RM (the one supposedly 'in the know) clearly didn't know, so it must must be doubtful that GM knew, so there must be a reasonable chance he kept it on him, albeit switched off.

I must confess to struggling with the phone pings data that's been released, but this seems to relate to calls/texts in or out rather than an ongoing tracking, but I may be wrong.

If the PJ were able to place RM at the golf club, maybe they are also able to place 'others' at places & times that we are unaware of.

One lives in hope.

by bobbin 01.03.14 14:24

Tony Bennett wrote:
Hicks wrote:I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely. If Murat and McCann were at the Golf Club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time. ( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo. I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

HelenMeg also wrote:

Just trying to jot down a bit of a timeline for RM:
3rd May
At Palmares Golf Club in afternoon
Mobile phone back on late evening (within 6 mins of GM's mobile phone being switched back on)
Phoned Malinka at 11:39pm

need to build on this - was it possible that Gerry met him at the Golf Club on 3rd May afternoon. I have suspected previously that GM was superimposed on last photo in order to prove he was at OC instead of elsewhere. I am wondering GM's phone was switched off at 3pm 3rd May so that he could go somewhere without being traced by signal.

++++++++++++++++++++++

For sure there are some very interesting and pertinent facts being discussed on this thread.

Both Hicks and HelenMeg make good and forceful points.

However, both have IMO introduced an unnecessary complication - claiming that the 'Last Photo' was forged [HICKS: "The pool photo was 'created'..."; HELENMEG: "GM was superimposed on the last photo"].

There is a simpler explanation that accords with the known facts and does not require any manipulation, forgery etc. of the 'Last Photo'.

As I've maintained on another thread, the evidence is that the 'Last Photo' is GENUINE. To take one very important aspect: the length and direction of the shadows of Gerry McCann and his two children are completely consistent, of very short length, and almost impossible to forge. In addition, some serious photographic experts have maintained that they see no evidence of the 'Last Photo' being photoshopped - with which I humbly agree.

The explanation which meets the concerns on this thread and the known data is simple, namely that the 'Last Photo' was taken on a different day.

Sunday 29 April and Monday 30 April are the prime candidates for when the photo might really have been taken. It was hot and sunny on those two days, while the rest of the week was cloudier and cooler. Furthermore, the extreme shortness of the shadows suggests that the 'Last Photo' must have been taken close to when the sun was at its highest that week, namely around 1.35pm according to astronomical experts (as confirmed on astronomy websites).

Tony, much as I very much respect your tenacity in matters legal, I do take issue with you on your insisting that yours are the only correct visual acuity / perceptions of the last photo.
I accept that you may have your views on whether YOU think the photo is 'composed' 'faked' 'manipulated' or not, but I and others disagree, and for very sound analytical reasons.
Please accept that your view is only your opinion and please do not try to enforce your view as being 'correct'.
I and others can see innumerable very subtle inconsistencies and they have been covered on many threads.
I refuse to be told that my visual acuity is not correct because other 'experts' may have determined that they do not see what I can see.
I do not intend to waste space here, re-visiting the last photo.
My point here is, others have alternative theories, and cannot accept that the last photo of Madeleine is the same girl as the playground photo nor the tennis ball photo.
To this inconsistency many, many, finer details can demonstrate a photograph which has at least several composite parts.
Please present your opinions of the last photo as 'in your view' and not as " As I've (TB) maintained on another thread, the evidence is that the 'Last Photo' is GENUINE "
To my mind, Hicks and HelenMeg have not introduced an unnecessary complication. It is very much part of another picture being considered by others, with equal validity.
To stifle debate by trying to 'assert' one view, as if 'proven' when it is actually very much up for challenge, is not conducive to encouragement to other posters to put their observations and thoughts in.
I accept that the passport issue has been explained, but your 'legal mind' and your 'visual acuity' may work at different levels, and it is the input from 'all' who can add their 'own particular visual acuity or powers of perception' that will contribute to getting justice for Madeleine, and not a dismissal from one against an other.
Please accept my certain and great respect for all that you do, but on this occasion, please modify your statements in this issue, as opinion and not fact.

by HelenMeg 01.03.14 14:38

sami wrote:
Hicks wrote:
sami wrote:
Hicks wrote:I find this thread exciting as it is binding the events of May 3rd together nicely.
If Murat and McCann were at the Golf club, then it would explain the pool photo and the need to conceal his whereabouts at that time.( Well done HelenMeg!) The photo has always remained a mystery as Madeleine appears much younger than the tennis photo.
I expect the pool photo was 'created' when GM took that all important trip back home.

I need to know, is the golf club mentioned above by the sea?

It's not called a beach and golf resort for nothing ! The website has some wonderful photos of the course, completely with equally wonderful sea views.
WELCOME TO ONYRIA PALMARES BEACH & GOLF RESORT
Okay thanks. I need a coffee to wake me up! The reason I asked, I know this is not very scientific but I had a dream/vision that M was taken through , what I assumed was s golf course. I was stood on a cliff-with I think was a golf course behind me- watching her body being dumped at sea by someone in small black boat or dinghy. Next question is...if I were stood on a cliff near that golf course and I looked down to the water would I see large rocks sticking out of the water? That's what I saw. It's the reason I joined this forum. Someone else on this forum PM me to say that they had the exact vision, every detail exact. Spooky!

Hicks I'm sorry, I was not directing a sarcastic response at you, if you look at the photos on the website there is extensive sea frontage, I was directing the remark in that way - it is most definitely a beach resort.

Hi

Here is a link to a video of the golf course.. .will take a look! NYRIA PALMARES BEACH & GOLF RESORT
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What information do we now need to carry this line of thought forwards?