Murat - 9 points which require explanation

by **Tony Bennett** 11.08.12 22:34

Olive_Boyle wrote:I think you can include Robert Murat [in the list of those wrongly suspected, whose lives must have been hell, and are still treated like they have done something wrong]. He has been cleared, hasn't he? - of having any involvement in the McCann case? - and yet people still believe (you can read it on this forum) that he is involved...I'm of the opionion that he has NO involvement in her disappearance whatsoever.

I have never suggested that Murat was in any way the cause or a contributory cause of Madeleine being reported missing at between 9.30pm and 10.00pm on Thursday, 3 May 2007.

However, those who have studied in detail various aspects of Robert Murat's conduct still have, shall we say, major question marks about his role in the whole affair. There's more detail about this on this forum and elsewhere, but just as a very brief summary, here's a very short list of things that have prompted those questions:

* Asked in early May 2007 if he already knew Robert Murat, Dr Gerald McCann refused to answer, saying: "I am not going to comment on that"

* Robert Murat has never given a convincing explanation why he rushed out of his house before 5am to catch an early morning flight to Faro Airport on Tuesday 1 May 2007

* He lied in at least 17 respects when questioned by police on 14 May about his movements between 1 and 4 May. When re-interviewed by police on 10 and 11 July 2007, and was confronted with mobile 'phone antenna evidence, he admitted lying, claiming he was 'too tired' to remember the truth on 14 May

* Jane Tanner, stationed in a police van on 13 May 2007, insisted that as Robert Murat walked by, that he was definitely the man she had seen 'walking purposefully' away from Flat G5A with a child. This led directly to his arrest the following day. She has since changed her mind.

* During the following 48 hours, three of the Tapas 7 - Rachael Oldfield, Fiona Payne and Matthew Oldfield - suddenly 'remembered' seeing Murat 'hanging around the Ocean Club' on the evening of 3 May 2007. They all later changed their mind

* Murat had encrypted material on his computer but offered no explanation as to how it got there

* On 13 November 2007 Cheshire double glazing magnate Brian Kennedy and his in-house lawyer, McCann legal co-ordinator and senior Freemason Edward Smethurst travelled 2,000 miles to meet Murat - a suspect at the time of having abducted Madeleine - his mother, his aunt and uncle

* He never sued any of the four members of the 'Tapas 7' who unjustly pointed the finger at him, and who (in the case of Jane Tanner) triggered his arrest in the first place, and, last but not least

* He admitted to regularly watching porn sites like 'redclouds' - and two separate witnesses, one of whom who had known him well, made credible allegations about his engaging in illegal conduct of a sexual nature.

Given these assorted facts, what is the explanation?

by **Tony Bennett** 11.08.12 22:40

uppatoffee wrote:Does the fact that the body has not yet formally been identified simply mean that a member of the family has not yet done this, or that the police are unable to confirm that it is definitely Tia?

PeterMac will correct me if I'm incorrect, but usually the post-mortem comes first. I think the post-mortem is taking some time because it looks from what we know that Tia's body may have been decomposing rapidly in the August heat of the loft. It is vital if possible to establish the precise cause of death (there could for example be a defence of: "She died accidentally, I panicked and hid the body"). Then it is customary to invite the closest member of the family, or any member of the family, or a close friend, to identify the body if they can. The briefest glimpse of the face suffices in most cases.

by uppatoffee 11.08.12 22:46

Thank you Tony. I knew someone would be able to answer my question.

What a terrible job to have to do, especially given, as you say, the likely state of the body

by aquarius2 11.08.12 22:48

uppatoffee wrote:Does the fact that the body has not yet formally been identified simply mean that a member of the family has not yet done this, or that the police are unable to confirm that it is definitely Tia?

Dental records or DNA would be able to confirm identity, although the required professional expertise & technical/ logistical issues of arranging this might take a few few days to set in place and to confirm. Can only assume the quicker method of identification by a family member was not possible because a) a suitable family member was not available in that time period or very regrettably b) the state of the body through decomposition or injury did not facilitate that method. [apologies for being so graphic Sad

]

by **Tony Bennett** 11.08.12 22:58

Whilst the police did indeed make a humiliating bungle of their first two 'searches', I would like to publicly praise Area Commander Neil Basu in respect of the following extract from BBC's news report tonight:

Area Commander Neil Basu said: "An early review has been conducted and it is now clear that human error delayed the discovery of the body within the house.

"We have apologised to Tia's mother that our procedures did not lead to the discovery of the body on this [the second] search.

"A continuing review and examination of our search processes will be undertaken to ensure such a failing is not repeated."

BBC Home Affairs Correspondent Danny Shaw tweeted: "I can't ever remember a time when Met admitted a serious mistake so quickly and made immediate apology. But how did it happen?"

The review was swift.

The review was decisive.

A clear human error was identified.

A clear human error was publicly acknowledged - and indeed details given of what was on any analysis a very very bad error.

An apology was made immediately to the family and to the public.

That's how things should be done, and Neil Basu deserves much credit for that.

by ufercoffy 11.08.12 23:00

So the mother has come back then?

by Ribisl 11.08.12 23:11

Olive_Boyle wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:
Olive_Boyle wrote:
Smokeandmirrors wrote:I've been following this on DigitalSpy, although not all of the hundreds of pages of posts! I did just want to mention that there were loads of people commenting that no-one should jump to conclusions or be judgemental about the type of family, neighbourhood etc and it was making me quite cross really. Whilst we might not have got every detail spot-on (certainly based on what has been thus far confirmed via the news), many people have been pretty bang-on from the off. Our instincts and ability to read situations is overall pretty good as is panning out as the days go by - so what exactly IS wrong with being judgemental?

I make no apologies for be as judgemental as hell - in early middle age, I have had plenty of time to observe behaviours and consequences, as have very many. We have often used our suspicions and judgements wisely, and one might even go as far to say that on occasions our judgements have helped us divert potentially dangerous situations. History shows us that time and time again, our initial observations ad judgements are entirely worthy. So why oh why do some faux do-gooders persist in hectoring us with the notion that it is wrong to make value judgements and have opinions about characteristics and behaviours which we know damn well are not conducive to decent and harmonious living?

This case has so far vindicated "judgemental" thinking. What do others think of this??

I haven't got to the end of this thread yet so this could already have been said.

I think its ok to be judgemental when you are right.

But there are cases of being judgemental when you are wrong, the cases of Colin Stagg springs to mind - who I was positive had "done it" and the eccentric neighbour Chris Jeffries in the Jo Yeates case. There lives must have been hell and I bet some people still treat them like they have done something wrong. You can even include Robert Murat in this list.

Well said. I suppose the difference between normal folk discussing things and holding their own, possibly very forthright, opinions and what the PRESS and media outlets broadcast, is that the media can form or alter judgements of so many, whereas people just passing comments within a forum or comments section will have little or no bearing on any outcome for the discuss-ee's fate. I do acknowledge hurt feelings when genuine mistakes are made within public perception as with Stagg, and this sort of thing is still an extremely rare occurrence. Obviously someone tied up in a news story (McCanns for example) can complain that it is very damaging to them, but to read or listen to the opinions on forums is an absolute choice, with a very small audience in reality. A headline staring out from the new stands is wholly different IMO as it can be seen by literally millions. This is why libel actions against private individuals is so pointless and only seeks to further publicise what they don't want people to hear.

Yes I think you are right. Its hard to form a correct opinion if you are only going on the facts given out by the media. They have their own agenda which is to sell papers/get viewers. They are the worst arm chair detectives of them all. We have to trust they are feeding us correct information.

I suppose its different with the McCann case. We can be judgemental as the case files are out there for all to read. We can form our opinions based on Police work and not on speculation of journalists.

Interesting discussion here. But I think I'd prefer to talk in terms of forming one's opinion based on critical analysis of available facts, aided by one's life experiences. Being judgmental suggests too much of bias arising from preconceived ideas and belief systems.

In the case of the continuing trend of social disintegration and cultural decline in Britain, however, I feel as strongly as a number of posters here and wish there was an easy fix without regressing towards a draconian and less democratic society. You only need to check what is showing on prime time television these days to see the dire consequences of the decades of social liberalism. Not sure how much good parenting classes can do when these children have no role models at home going back two or even three generations. I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging children to play competitive sports. Give them classic literature, not comic books or playstations. Let them see true works of art and listen to classical music, open their minds to the beauty of science, encourage debates and discussions in classrooms. Only if it were so simple. PM is right, of course, about the below average IQ level of many of these people. But surely we as society ought to be able to offer these children better role models than Wayne Rooney and Cheryl Cole.

by russiandoll 11.08.12 23:29

Have now read multiple reports that approx. 30 minutes before the search yesterday a specialist dog was there, also the day before. The statement by N Basu re the search 5th August covering area where body was eventually found did not mention a dog on that occasion. Human error might well relate to poor judgment and decision making re the type of dog used in the earlier searching. Until I read otherwise I refuse to believe that a body recovery dog failed to alert, this type of dog has not been mentioned in official statements relating to the early searches.

by listener 11.08.12 23:33

Ribisl wrote: In the case of the continuing trend of social disintegration and cultural decline in Britain, however, I feel as strongly as a number of posters here and wish there was an easy fix without regressing towards a draconian and less democratic society. You only need to check what is showing on prime time television these days to see the dire consequences of the decades of social liberalism. Not sure how much good parenting classes can do when these children have no role models at home going back two or even three generations. I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging children to play competitive sports. Give them classic literature, not comic books or playstations. Let them see true works of art and listen to classical music, open their minds to the beauty of science, encourage debates and discussions in classrooms. Only if it were so simple. PM is right, of course, about the below average IQ level of many of these people. But surely we as society ought to be able to offer these children better role models than Wayne Rooney and Cheryl Cole.

Very, very well said [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by Woof 12.08.12 0:05

listener wrote:
Ribisl wrote: Only if it were so simple. PM is right, of course, about the below average IQ level of many of these people. But surely we as society ought to be able to offer these children better role models than Wayne Rooney and Cheryl Cole.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Very, very well said

Well, why not just let them "eat cake"?

Shame. On all of you.

Low IQ and "substandard" housing does not a criminal make. As we have already learned. 99.9% of "these people" along with the people of PDL combed the area for the missing child. Worried about the child, the child's family, their families, their community and the world in general. Criminals come from all walks of life. Unfortunately.

by listener 12.08.12 0:15

So, back to Tia,

We now know her body was hidden, but we don't yet know why.

by bristow 12.08.12 1:41

From reading in depth some of the conversations on the Find Tia Facebook page there seems to be an on going argument about someone who had quite a bit of inside evidence about the case and why they hadn't alerted the Police.
They seem to be saying that Tia was alive until Tuesday.

It had crossed my mind that perhaps she was still alive later than we thought, hence the dogs not scenting cadaver?

It is all on Facebook at the moment, but will copy it here in case it disappears. (Admin please remove if not appropriate). I have tried to delete swearing.)

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THE SICK **** NEW INFO AND NEVER WENT POLICE HOPE U GET WEIGHED IN EVERYDAY OF URE LIFE

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] likes this.

- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] How do u know?:/
  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] via [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] BECAUSE
  12 HOURS BEFORE HER BODY WAS FOUND SHE PUT ON PAGE IT WAS HER GRANDAD
  AS HE CLAIMED TO B THAT HAS IN ON IT SHE SAID COZ SHE SPOKE TO THE UNCLE
  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] · [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] she mentioned the name paul saying her bloke told her everything
  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] all peole in croydon are looking for her
  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] · [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] if it is a her and not a him
  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] · [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that roo roo said he killed tia tuesday how does she really know all this
  [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] · [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] well roo roo said it was last thurs he killed her

by Olive_Boyle 12.08.12 3:01

Tony Bennett wrote:
Olive_Boyle wrote:I think you can include Robert Murat [in the list of those wrongly suspected, whose lives must have been hell, and are still treated like they have done something wrong]. He has been cleared, hasn't he? - of having any involvement in the McCann case? - and yet people still believe (you can read it on this forum) that he is involved...I'm of the opionion that he has NO involvement in her disappearance whatsoever.
I have never suggested that Murat was in any way the cause or a contributory cause of Madeleine being reported missing at between 9.30pm and 10.00pm on Thursday, 3 May 2007.

However, those who have studied in detail various aspects of Robert Murat's conduct still have, shall we say, major question marks about his role in the whole affair. There's more detail about this on this forum and elsewhere, but just as a very brief summary, here's a very short list of things that have prompted those questions:

* Asked in early May 2007 if he already knew Robert Murat, Dr Gerald McCann refused to answer, saying: "I am not going to comment on that"

* Robert Murat has never given a convincing explanation why he rushed out of his house before 5am to catch an early morning flight to Faro Airport on Tuesday 1 May 2007

* He lied in at least 17 respects when questioned by police on 14 May about his movements between 1 and 4 May. When re-interviewed by police on 10 and 11 July 2007, and was confronted with mobile 'phone antenna evidence, he admitted lying, claiming he was 'too tired' to remember the truth on 14 May

* Jane Tanner, stationed in a police van on 13 May 2007, insisted that as Robert Murat walked by, that he was definitely the man she had seen 'walking purposefully' away from Flat G5A with a child. This led directly to his arrest the following day. She has since changed her mind.

* During the following 48 hours, three of the Tapas 7 - Rachael Oldfield, Fiona Payne and Matthew Oldfield - suddenly 'remembered' seeing Murat 'hanging around the Ocean Club' on the evening of 3 May 2007. They all later changed their mind

* Murat had encrypted material on his computer but offered no explanation as to how it got there

* On 13 November 2007 Cheshire double glazing magnate Brian Kennedy and his in-house lawyer, McCann legal co-ordinator and senior Freemason Edward Smethurst travelled 2,000 miles to meet Murat - a suspect at the time of having abducted Madeleine - his mother, his aunt and uncle

* He never sued any of the four members of the 'Tapas 7' who unjustly pointed the finger at him, and who (in the case of Jane Tanner) triggered his arrest in the first place, and, last but not least

* He admitted to regularly watching porn sites like 'redclouds' - and two separate witnesses, one of whom who had known him well, made credible allegations about his engaging in illegal conduct of a sexual nature.

Given these assorted facts, what is the explanation?

Tony - the way you have replied makes it look like I was aiming my comments at you. I wasn't.

You have moved my words around, changing the meaning of what I said.

I've seen many good explanations given as answers to your questions.

So me trying to explain my opinion probably isn't going to alter your view.

Anyway I've noticed that anyone who does have a different view to you seems to get labelled a troll so I'm not going to try.

by Olympicana_Reloaded 12.08.12 3:17

SKY NEWS: Stuart Hazell has been charged with the murder of 12-year-old schoolgirl Tia Sharp

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by Spaniel 12.08.12 4:24

[quote="Olympicana_Reloaded"]SKY NEWS: Stuart Hazell has been charged with the murder of 12-year-old schoolgirl Tia Sharp

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Granny Sharp and neighbour released on bail.

by **tigger** 12.08.12 6:55

Olive_Boyle wrote:
jd wrote:
Olive_Boyle wrote: You can even include Robert Murat in this list.

I don't believe you can include robert murat in this list as it was the mccanns and their friends themselves who put murat into the frame, especially their friend jane tanner. And also the then Sunday Mirror reporter lori campbell in front of the worlds media who gave a full interview on her 'feelings'. Not to mention murat's forgotten facts in his statements which he eventually 'remembered' over time

I think you can. He has been cleared, hasn't he?, of having any involvement in the McCann case and yet people still believe (you can read it on this forum) that he is involved.

So people are judging him on the likes of Lori Campbell and the McCann clan putting him in the frame.

I'm of the opionion that he has NO involvement in her disappearance whatsoever.

Maybe its only because there has been no conclusion to this case that you don't believe he can be included.

I've not noticed that anyone who disagrees with TB is labelled as a troll. It would perhaps be useful to read the chapter on Murat in the Madeleine Foundation (in the Home section). It contains independent comments and evidence on Murat who imo knows more or less what happened. As he said himself; 'It was the biggest c....up in history'. That expression implies that there was something to go wrong for this to happen.

Colin Stagg was a very suspect figure at the best of times, the police would have been damned if they did and damned if they didn't suspect him.
In old cases like the Hanratty murder, DNA evidence has recently proved the police right even though the witness evidence had always been shaky. Of course mistakes are made, but to say Murat has been cleared of all involvement isn't correct.
I think he was instrumental in hiding the body by arranging contacts for the McCanns. I am sure he personally didn't get his hands dirty and the idea that she's buried in his garden is plainly idiotic.
I also think he was forced to do far more for 'the cause' than he had originally envisaged.

His actions after being awarded the compensation payments and his lecture in Cambridge are well worth a look. As is the TV interview.

In the Yeates case it wasn't the police, who simply did their duty, but the press who reviled the landlord.

by **PeterMac** 12.08.12 7:14

Mail this morning has picked up on the Forensic linguistic aspect of his interview.

"His arrest came just 24 hours after he made a tearful appeal on television for the return of Tia, during which he spoke about her in the past tense.

Tia has been missing since last Friday and police have found a corpse but will not confirm if it is her
He denied harming the young girl and said: ‘I loved her to bits. She was like my own daughter.’"

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Anyone else ever done this ?

by **tigger** 12.08.12 7:19

PeterMac wrote:Mail this morning has picked up on the Forensic linguistic aspect of his interview.

"His arrest came just 24 hours after he made a tearful appeal on television for the return of Tia, during which he spoke about her in the past tense.

Tia has been missing since last Friday and police have found a corpse but will not confirm if it is her
He denied harming the young girl and said: ‘I loved her to bits. She was like my own daughter.’"

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Anyone else ever done this ?

Let me think now.... thinking

by Guest 12.08.12 8:26

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Sleepless nights: Natalie Sharp, Tia's mother, with her boyfriend David
Niles, have been left reeling by the events since her daughter went
missing on Friday, August 3

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I can't imagine how Tia's mother must feel knowing that her ex-boyfriend and her own mother were involved in the murder of her daughter.

by **Tony Bennett** 12.08.12 9:48

Olive_Boyle wrote, my replies in blue

Tony - the way you have replied makes it look like I was aiming my comments at you. I wasn't.

REPLY: That's simply your perception. I was merely raising 9 matters which might suggest that Murat was 'involved' in some way, especially relating to events after Madeleine was reported missing

You have moved my words around, changing the meaning of what I said.

REPLY: That's not true, either, but here once again are your actual words: "I think you can. He has been cleared, hasn't he? - of having any involvement in the McCann case - and yet people still believe (you can read it on this forum) that he is involved".

I've seen many good explanations given as answers to your questions.

REPLY: Where are they? Have you got some links? I've not seen any.

So me trying to explain my opinion probably isn't going to alter your view.

REPLY: You've stated your opinion but you haven't explained it.

Anyway I've noticed that anyone who does have a different view to you seems to get labelled a troll so I'm not going to try.

REPLY: Once again, that's incorrect, as I think 'tigger' pointed out. My nine question marks about Murat's role in this affair (and there are many other question marks, not just those nine) are questions that have never been satisfactorily answered, so far as I am aware. Could you at least answer one of the 9 questions: why in your opinion did Murat lie in at least 17 different respects, when interviewed on 14 May 2007, about his movements between 1 and 4 May 2007? [/quote]

by Guest 12.08.12 10:22

It's not true that anyone disagreeing with Tony is called a troll. I have seen some old posts on this site from people who quite clearly were here for no other reason than to cause trouble and Tony always did his best to reply to them politely.

Most people do respond well to being treated politely and it's then possible to debate things in an adult manner but, with the professional McCann trolls, you may as well save your breath.

by russiandoll 12.08.12 10:30

from the Guardian, 19 July 2012. [bold is mine]

[Prof Wilson is the man who spoke to Sky News Friday by 'phone, stating that most missing children turn up unharmed within 24 hours, that the older ones are usually safe, the younger ones are the ones found murdered and that it is a truism now among criminologists that these children have had some kind of relationship with the murderer.]

The murder rate in England and Wales is at its lowest point since 1983, with 550 homicides reported in 2011-12, down 88 on the previous year. This is not a peculiarly British phenomenon. Right across Europe and North America, the murder rate has seen significant decreases. So what are the common features that have contributed to this international phenomenon, and are there any British-specific factors?

First, we need to dispel some myths about what murder actually is, as opposed to the crimes we see depicted on television and read about in newspapers. Many people will instantly think of an Agatha Christie-type scenario in which all the possible perpetrators are brought together for a convoluted discussion before the guilt of the groundsman or butler is revealed by the savvy sleuth. In reality, however, most murders involve husbands killing wives and partners; or parents, especially step-parents, killing children.

This isn't nearly so good a story for the media of course, but the sad reality is that in England and Wales, the most likely victim of a murder is a child – usually under the age of two – and the perpetrator is usually that little boy's or girl's mother or father. And so contrary to perceptions that almost all crime goes unsolved, the police have a 90% success rate in identifying murderers. It becomes far less of a case of whodunnit than why-did-they-do-it. All profilers need is a brief conversation with the victim's husband, mother, father, or boyfriend; that will probably make it obvious who the culprit is.

So if the vast majority of murders come from within the home, it's in changes to domestic life and policy that we find the most important factors behind the fall in the murder rate. Compared to 30 years ago, domestic violence is now treated as a far more serious crime. To show how far we have come, marital rape – one of the most sordid forms of domestic abuse – was only criminalised in 1991. The authorities are not only more aware of violence against women and children in the home but are now more willing to intervene with families earlier to prevent violence escalating. This is borne out by the fact that the attempted murder rate is also in long-term decline, down 8% over the last year, a fall from 523 to 483 offences.

There is also an increasing number of effective community schemes aimed at tackling domestic violence – schemes such as Northumbria Probation Trust's Solo project, winner of this year's Howard League for Penal Reform Community Programme Awards, which works with perpetrators of domestic violence so as to ensure greater safety for women and children.

However, we need to also acknowledge some different phenomena, related to police and policing. The UK has the world's oldest and most extensive DNA database, and forensic science has progressed out of all recognition since the 1980s. So even in the minority of murders committed by stranger-perpetrators – usually in the night-time economy areas of towns and cities – the chances are that the police are going to track down the culprit. Forensic science has become the star witness at most trials, and violent offenders are all too aware that this is the case. And, while this is anecdotal, it does seem to have contributed towards a change in behaviour.

Of course to fully explain the fall in the murder rate we also need to cast an eye towards why murder increased so dramatically in the 60s and 70s. That may be putting too much emphasis of this batch of figures, but what it should remind us is that the rise or fall of murder is essentially an indicator of social and economic structures and the pressures that are placed on men and women to make their way in the world and to make sense of their lives.

by aiyoyo 12.08.12 10:33

tigger wrote:
PeterMac wrote:Mail this morning has picked up on the Forensic linguistic aspect of his interview.

"His arrest came just 24 hours after he made a tearful appeal on television for the return of Tia, during which he spoke about her in the past tense.

Tia has been missing since last Friday and police have found a corpse but will not confirm if it is her
He denied harming the young girl and said: ‘I loved her to bits. She was like my own daughter.’"

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Anyone else ever done this ?

Let me think now....

Can anyone spot the difference between this plain liar and the other high profile liar with an agenda in their forensic linguistic?

I

by Guest 12.08.12 10:52

So according to this article sniffer dogs went in earlier, and the police did search the loft, but the cadaver dog only went in on Friday

We DID search the loft but missed Tia's body: Police make startling admission as step-grandad is charged with murder after grandmother and neighbour are arrested

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[snipped from above article]

Police admitted yesterday that they had searched the loft of Tia Sharp’s grandmother’s house soon after the schoolgirl was reported missing, but failed to find her body because of ‘human error’.

The house was visited four times by police, including a full search with a specialist team two days after Tia was reported missing on August 3 and the last occasion, [size=18]when sniffer dogs trained to detect cadavers were brought into the property on Friday

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So, if I am reading right, according to the above in red, the police failed to find the body in the loft but the cadaver dog did on the last search, I can only think it prompted then to search the loft again.

by russiandoll 12.08.12 10:59

Candyfloss, it seem as though humans searched that loft earlier, doubtless because getting a German Shepherd up there was impossible. Mr Basu does not mention dogs when the area where the body was eventually found was first searched. GermanShepherds were the only dogs seen early on. A harnessed spaniel could easily get up there. I am convinced that it was the specialist dog discovery in the later search which was the catalyst for the drama of Friday whether that was a spaniel or another breed. It is a nose up situation from the first floor, so any dog must have given an alert which made them go back up there. I was in the kitchen while Sky was on at 7.30 and am sure some mention was made of the loft being where Tia was discovered.
The human error may well refer to the judgment of not using the specialist dog earlier, when they were still going through the cctv footage to establish if Tia was on her way to or at the shops as claimed.
eta N Basu states very clearly, highlighted by me below, that the second search was when the error occurred.

Neil Basu's full statement , bold mine.

We wish to provide further details regarding the searches that occurred in the past week at 20 The Lindens, New Addington.

The Metropolitan Police has launched a murder enquiry following the discovery of a body at the address yesterday and a number of people are in custody.

It is important that we explain more about the circumstances of the searches.

Four scene examinations were conducted of the property. The first followed immediately from the missing person report that was received on Friday 4 August. An initial visit was made to assess the situation and examine the property. This visit was not regarded or viewed as a full search of the property.

The second visit was a full search of the property with the consent of the occupiers. This was conducted on 5 August over a period of two hours. All parts of the premises were searched including the location where a body was discovered, five days later, on Friday 10 August.

An early review has been conducted and it is now clear that human error delayed the discovery of the body within the house. We have apologised to Tia's mother that our procedures did not lead to the discovery of the body on this search.

A third visit was undertaken on 8 August. This was not a search, but the attendance of a body recovery dog to assist the investigation team in their enquiries.

It is not appropriate to comment further on aspects of the criminal investigation currently being conducted but our investigation was such that it was decided that a further intrusive search needed to be undertaken - it was that search, yesterday, which resulted in the discovery.

On behalf of the Metropolitan Police I apologise for the distress and concern this delay will have caused. A continuing review and examination of our search processes will be undertaken to ensure such a failing is not repeated.

[ He has not mentioned a body recovery dog going in prior to Friday's search but this was reported, maybe not reliably. It seems quite clear from what he says re use of dogs that specialist body recovery dog did not go in until a later stage.]

by Spaniel 12.08.12 11:00

Tony Bennett wrote:Whilst the police did indeed make a humiliating bungle of their first two 'searches', I would like to publicly praise Area Commander Neil Basu in respect of the following extract from BBC's news report tonight:

Area Commander Neil Basu said: "An early review has been conducted and it is now clear that human error delayed the discovery of the body within the house.

"We have apologised to Tia's mother that our procedures did not lead to the discovery of the body on this [the second] search.

"A continuing review and examination of our search processes will be undertaken to ensure such a failing is not repeated."

BBC Home Affairs Correspondent Danny Shaw tweeted: "I can't ever remember a time when Met admitted a serious mistake so quickly and made immediate apology. But how did it happen?"

The review was swift.

The review was decisive.

A clear human error was identified.

A clear human error was publicly acknowledged - and indeed details given of what was on any analysis a very very bad error.

An apology was made immediately to the family and to the public.

That's how things should be done, and Neil Basu deserves much credit for that.

How do they know so soon, that the body was there all along? Has there been enough time for forensics to establish that?

The first two searches took place in the presence of the occupiers. Strange then that SH only went to pieces during the last one. Did he think the searches had finished?

by Guest 12.08.12 11:30

Tony Bennett wrote:Olive_Boyle wrote, my replies in blue

Tony - the way you have replied makes it look like I was aiming my comments at you. I wasn't.

REPLY: That's simply your perception. I was merely raising 9 matters which might suggest that Murat was 'involved' in some way, especially relating to events after Madeleine was reported missing

You have moved my words around, changing the meaning of what I said.

REPLY: That's not true, either, but here once again are your actual words: "I think you can. He has been cleared, hasn't he? - of having any involvement in the McCann case - and yet people still believe (you can read it on this forum) that he is involved".

I've seen many good explanations given as answers to your questions.

REPLY: Where are they? Have you got some links? I've not seen any.

So me trying to explain my opinion probably isn't going to alter your view.

REPLY: You've stated your opinion but you haven't explained it.

Anyway I've noticed that anyone who does have a different view to you seems to get labelled a troll so I'm not going to try.

REPLY: Once again, that's incorrect, as I think 'tigger' pointed out. My nine question marks about Murat's role in this affair (and there are many other question marks, not just those nine) are questions that have never been satisfactorily answered, so far as I am aware. Could you at least answer one of the 9 questions: why in your opinion did Murat lie in at least 17 different respects, when interviewed on 14 May 2007, about his movements between 1 and 4 May 2007?

Tony, I personally think continuing speculation about Murat is a waste of time. I see lots of speculation but most of it is concerned with opinions about his character I believe and really that's not too much different to simply continuing Lori Campbell's campaign against him unfortunately.

Points 1,4 and 5 of your list - it's not logical for us to disbelieve what the McCanns and their friends say about Madeleine's disappearance, but believe what they say about Murat is it?

Point 1 - if somebody asked GM if today is Sunday, he'd probably say no comment if he thought creating confusion would give him an advantage. Again, it's not logical to use him as a witness against Murat if we don't believe what GM says about May 3 2007 is it?

Points 2,6 and 9 are Mr Murat's own business unless there is any evidence any of that behaviour has any connection with Madeleine's disappearance, and after 5 years I've never seen any.

Points 7 & 8 are probably linked to each other but contact between Murat, his lawyers and those of the McCanns, their friends and Mr Kennedy in November 2007 isn't evidence there was any collusion between those parties six months earlier.

Point 3 - it's probably true the Portuguese police spent far more time looking at Murat than they did at the McCanns and if after all that investigation the policemen involved don't seem to have any remaining suspicion about him, why should we? Mr Amaral doesn't as far as I know. If we believe what Amaral wrote in his book, and what his former colleagues stated in court to support him, logically we should trust their lack of remaining suspicion about Murat shouldn't we?

by russiandoll 12.08.12 11:31

from the Guardian :

It is understood that a criminal justice review will be launched examining how agencies and police supervised Tia's family during the investigation. The manner of the police investigation will be placed under scrutiny either through an inquiry led by the Inspectorate of Constabulary or the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

The probation officers' union, Napo, also said it believed that a raft of reviews relating to Tia's disappearance and death would be launched early this week. The London Borough of Croydon's safeguarding board is expected to instigate a review of what interaction Tia had with the local authorities. The board will seek to establish what, if any, involvement the youngster had with social services in the months before she died.

by aiyoyo 12.08.12 11:40

russiandoll wrote: Candyfloss, it seem as though humans searched that loft earlier, doubtless because getting a German Shepherd up there was impossible. Mr Basu does not mention dogs when the area where the body was eventually found was first searched. GermanShepherds were the only dogs seen early on. A harnessed spaniel could easily get up there. I am convinced that it was the specialist dog discovery in the later search which was the catalyst for the drama of Friday whether that was a spaniel or another breed. It is a nose up situation from the first floor, so any dog must have given an alert which made them go back up there. I was in the kitchen while Sky was on at 7.30 and am sure some mention was made of the loft being where Tia was discovered.
The human error may well refer to the judgment of not using the specialist dog earlier, when they were still going through the cctv footage to establish if Tia was on her way to or at the shops as claimed.

Neil Basu's full statement , bold mine.

We wish to provide further details regarding the searches that occurred in the past week at 20 The Lindens, New Addington.

The Metropolitan Police has launched a murder enquiry following the discovery of a body at the address yesterday and a number of people are in custody.

It is important that we explain more about the circumstances of the searches.

Four scene examinations were conducted of the property. The first followed immediately from the missing person report that was received on Friday 4 August. An initial visit was made to assess the situation and examine the property. This visit was not regarded or viewed as a full search of the property.

The second visit was a full search of the property with the consent of the occupiers. This was conducted on 5 August over a period of two hours. All parts of the premises were searched including the location where a body was discovered, five days later, on Friday 10 August.

An early review has been conducted and it is now clear that human error delayed the discovery of the body within the house. We have apologised to Tia's mother that our procedures did not lead to the discovery of the body on this search.

A third visit was undertaken on 8 August. This was not a search, but the attendance of a body recovery dog to assist the investigation team in their enquiries.

It is not appropriate to comment further on aspects of the criminal investigation currently being conducted but our investigation was such that it was decided that a further intrusive search needed to be undertaken - it was that search, yesterday, which resulted in the discovery.

On behalf of the Metropolitan Police I apologise for the distress and concern this delay will have caused. A continuing review and examination of our search processes will be undertaken to ensure such a failing is not repeated.

[ He has not mentioned a body recovery dog going in prior to Friday's search but this was reported, maybe not reliably. It seems quite clear from what he says re use of dogs that specialist body recovery dog did not go in until a later stage.]

Yeap, it would appear that dog sent in on Wednesday was not cadaver detection dog (sniffer dog perhaps) but the dog used on Friday was cadaver detection dog.

For some reasons the Police had later on Friday decided to use Cadaver dog even though they'd missed the body the in earlier searches. Something must have triggered that action. Either someone slipped up during interview, or that combined with internal review of police handling of the procedures, or the body was moved to the loft later. Police surveillance of grandma's domicile might have led to the suspicions of the body in the house. There must have been some unusual activities/movements spotted during the surveillance period.

Which would explain why the Police reaccessed and reassessed the house using cadaver dog subsequent time despite having searched the loft earlier and found nothing. How could the Police have missed the body in the loft during earlier search is beyond me because even if they couldn't see it visually then they should be able to smell the decomposition from miles off.

by **tigger** 12.08.12 11:44

@tcat and Olive_Boyle:
This is all about Murat and imo neither of you have yet read the recommended and factual chapters on Murat in the Madeleine Foundation section. He was not cleared. Having an arguido status lifted does not clear you, it can be re-instated. Amaral (if you'd take the trouble to read his account) was not at all keen to arrest Murat. He did not believe Murat had abducted Maddie, because he did not believe the abduction in the first place. But he was convinced of his complicity and dishonesty.

Admin: can we move these posts to one about Murat? I really don't want to continue answering questions on Murat only on this topic.