Maddie Case: Gonçalo Amaral returns to Praia da Luz

by Guest 02.03.12 8:48

Maddie Case: Gonçalo Amaral returns to Praia da Luz

2nd March 2012 posted by Joana Morais

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by david_uk 02.03.12 11:40

candyfloss wrote:Maddie Case: Gonçalo Amaral returns to Praia da Luz

2nd March 2012 posted by Joana Morais

[url=http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/maddie-case-goncalo-amaral-returns-to.html

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very interesting that they got GA to talk about this location and I dont remember this info and photos of Gerry searching in the water!!??

by flaxyard 02.03.12 13:40

Well I have just joined this forum.(Good afternoon all). I have been following this case very closely for too long. Those pictures of GM searching in the ravine.... I have never seen these before. Did GA release these? PS Keep up the good work.

by aiyoyo 02.03.12 14:32

david_uk wrote:
candyfloss wrote:Maddie Case: Gonçalo Amaral returns to Praia da Luz

2nd March 2012 posted by Joana Morais

[url=http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2012/03/maddie-case-goncalo-amaral-returns-to.html
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very interesting that they got GA to talk about this location and I dont remember this info and photos of Gerry searching in the water!!??

Well, I have - seen those photos that is.
That was debated at 3As as to what gerry could possibly be doing there with his relative. Even then people were of the opinion that the PJ should look there because Gerry couldn't have been looking for crabs.

Anyhow, IMHO the golf connection thing has a very potent significance if people were to look into who's the wheeler and dealer behind this, as in who (behind the scene) is holding this lie together?

by finch 02.03.12 15:16

What is it that makes these two psychics so much more credible than others? I don't think anything they said hadn't been in the media before. They could have known all these facts: the golf course, Rocha Negra, the drains... Or did I miss something?

by Guest 02.03.12 15:23

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This is the only picture I could find quickly. There will be others on Getty Images, I should think.

by flaxyard 02.03.12 15:41

Apologies.I must get myself up to speed! Could I ask you for some clarification please? When were these pics taken? Who is the relative with GM? Can you elaborate re your last paragraph re the wheeler dealer? Why would GM and one other be searching there if so adamant about the "ABDUCTION" Theory? Grateful for your reply.

by aiyoyo 02.03.12 16:41

flaxyard wrote:Apologies.I must get myself up to speed! Could I ask you for some clarification please? When were these pics taken? Who is the relative with GM? Can you elaborate re your last paragraph re the wheeler dealer? Why would GM and one other be searching there if so adamant about the "ABDUCTION" Theory? Grateful for your reply.

Flaxyard, sorry I haven't a clue when the photos were taken but would imagine that would have been on the day of event, apparently 7th May.
Open the link Alison posted and you will see the photo was already on mccannfiles.blog, so the release of this picture is not new.

The speculations then were 1) the man with gerry was kate's cousin, Michael Wright, and 2) gerry was using the mobile away from police radar. Of course some people included the possibility he was looking for something -- possibly Madeleine.

Just like you, I am wondering why he would be looking for her if he'd thrown in her?
What could be the reason for that (if he was indeed searching). Did he get help from someone outside the holiday group with the throwing into the ravine. Was that meant to be temporary burial, stuck her into the ravine to be recovered for a final resting place? All manner of questions spring to mind when people saw that pic?

It's interesting Amaral mentioned a sports bag or a blue bag, so it begs another question who had witnessed "gerry" or a "man" carrying such a bag and when?

As for the wheeler and dealer - ask yourself who this person could be that help the mccanns maintain their lie and why?

by aiyoyo 02.03.12 16:58

finch wrote:What is it that makes these two psychics so much more credible than others? I don't think anything they said hadn't been in the media before. They could have known all these facts: the golf course, Rocha Negra, the drains... Or did I miss something?

Questions
1.Depends on how much info the psychics had before, or were they working from blind?
If latter then isnt it just freakily uncanny that they picked up energy at the same place Gerry was seen and which the PJ had search?

2. What is Amaral objective for gong back to PDL. Is he visiting for searching that area again?

by worriedmum 02.03.12 18:29

could someone clever on the forum show how close this rocky area is to the areas described by Pat Brown on today's blog link 'Criminal Profiler topic of the day ' about the Smith/Tanner sighting please? How close is it and how close also to Rocha Negra?

by **tigger** 03.03.12 8:50

The way I read the interview is that GA absolutely doesn't think the body was thrown into the ravine, but he is interested to find out what Gerry and Jon Corner were doing there and what they might have been looking for. Some piece of evidence thrown off the cliff? Perhaps they're making sure it hasn't left any trace.
But since the dogs and the police had been over that area - highly unlikely to be a body. A mobile phone? The usb key with the photographs?
Tennis bag would be unlikely too. Too likely to get stuck between rocks.

I also don't infer from the interview that GA values psychics highly. He said that the FBI work with such people.

by Guest 03.03.12 9:03

tigger wrote:The way I read the interview is that GA absolutely doesn't think the body was thrown into the ravine, but he is interested to find out what Gerry and Jon Corner were doing there and what they might have been looking for. Some piece of evidence thrown off the cliff? Perhaps they're making sure it hasn't left any trace.
But since the dogs and the police had been over that area - highly unlikely to be a body. A mobile phone? The usb key with the photographs?
Tennis bag would be unlikely too. Too likely to get stuck between rocks.

I also don't infer from the interview that GA values psychics highly. He said that the FBI work with such people.

It says underneath the photos tigger that it was Michael Wright with G McCann.

by **tigger** 03.03.12 9:10

Sorry, that's two bald heads! For some reason I associated baldness only with JC.

by **sharonl** 03.03.12 9:13

According to Goncalo Amaral the body was hidden on the beach before being moved.

If the body had been cast into the ravine on May 9th this was contradict the evidence of the dogs re: the renault scenic that was hired later.

1. Were Gerry and Michael, testing the waters, so to speak?
2. Was the same car hired by a friend earlier that month?

Carrying a golf bag across a golf course would hardly look suspicious, but the members of tapas nine may have been recognised. Michael wright was not really known at this point, would he have been carrying the bag and walking alone?

There was no alert to cadaver odour in this area but does a frozen cadaver emit odour?

Who took the photographs? For what purpose? and was Gerry aware that the photographs were being taken?

by aiyoyo 03.03.12 11:49

sharonl wrote:According to Goncalo Amaral the body was hidden on the beach before being moved.

If the body had been cast into the ravine on May 9th this was contradict the evidence of the dogs re: the renault scenic that was hired later.

1. Were Gerry and Michael, testing the waters, so to speak?
2. Was the same car hired by a friend earlier that month?

Carrying a golf bag across a golf course would hardly look suspicious, but the members of tapas nine may have been recognised. Michael wright was not really known at this point, would he have been carrying the bag and walking alone?

There was no alert to cadaver odour in this area but does a frozen cadaver emit odour?

Who took the photographs? For what purpose? and was Gerry aware that the photographs were being taken?

The pertinent point is: why is Amaral returning to PDL now, and why mentioned about that now during an interview? What is the significance of that?

The golf course and ravine is interesting to me? Just for debate sake:
Who would know about the ravine unless you are a local or have been living there for a while. Would newcomers to PDL know that without exploration before hand? That is when the Golf connection comes in I would think.

The visit to the rocky area was on 7th May, only 5 days after Maddie's disappearance, one possibility is that the mccanns never expected to be followed since they didn't think the Police were onto them. It could be the Police who took the photos. The Police must have believed them being there have some significance - question is when did police search that area with the dogs? Pre or Post the two men's visit?

On people's theory that Gerry might have gone there to use the phone, isn't that a strange place to go just to avoid phone surveillance; and getting knee deep in water at the same time appearing to be searching is not normal if they only want to use the phone away from Police. Even say if they are worried that their apt could be bugged, then there are plenty other public places for that purpose. Church for example, when they go jogging for example.

If he'd hidden her there, it could be to check whether she was in situ and not washed away or no residues or forensics left behind.
If he didn't, it might be to check out the ravine location, the info having been given by a local or a friend or a "golf" associate who live there, to suss it out as possible final dumping ground.
From the look of them both, they appeared to be digging around, unaware they were followed. IMHO,Gerry use of the phone might be incidental to their activity, the use of the phone was just reporting in his activity.
I would say Amaral is right, he wasnt looking for crabs and if he was searching for Maddie it couldn't have been a "live" Maddie; which begs the questions:
How did Gerry know about the rocky area with a ravine?
Did someone send him there to look?
Did someone outside of the Tapas group help Gerry with the disposal? Was she disposed earlier by this someone and Gerry was given the temporary hiding place and he went to check.

I wonder whether the phone pings there and the frequency of it?
The only problem is that no one knows whose phone he was using as by then his relatives from UK were with them.
Michael Wright is in it right up to his neck. I wonder whether the Police did interview him or not?

by aiyoyo 03.03.12 12:05

Just read on the mccannfile blog that the photo was taken by an unknown man?
Well could police working anonymously be termed "unknown" ...just thinking aloud.

If not, how did the police get hold of those photos? Did the unknown person report this incident to the Police? All very strange.

What the Police are not saying us should make interesting case for Court I would imagine.

by joyce1938 03.03.12 13:46

i think the ravine area was searched with the pj sniffer dogs ,early next day ,i think is what ga said on his last words as he had come back to the area.So i wonder if it was the 2nd place she may have been,horrible thought for us all to need to discuss isnt it ?joyce1938

by **tigger** 03.03.12 14:00

aiyoyo wrote:Just read on the mccannfile blog that the photo was taken by an unknown man?
Well could police working anonymously be termed "unknown" ...just thinking aloud.

If not, how did the police get hold of those photos? Did the unknown person report this incident to the Police? All very strange.

What the Police are not saying us should make interesting case for Court I would imagine.

They're printed with Getty images, I'd think it was a journalist who took the pictures - most people wouldn't know where to sell them?
I'm really not convinced that GA is right.
The body was long gone from 5a imo. sorted by Murat's friends - possibly an empty apartment with a fridge somewhere. Murat didn't come back for nothing - so taking him out of the equation is not a good idea imo.
Otherwise the body would be buried on the beach, then dug up and be put in a freezer/fridge, then taken out and taken to a deserted barn around the 10th June, then put into the Renault - then to Huelva?
Way too many moves imo. Only if you believe it was a total surprise to the parents and friends that Maddie died. I don't believe it - because I can use a spoon...
It's too much I think, too many people involved in the moves,

by **sharonl** 04.03.12 9:53

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Why did Kate do this?

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There's more
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by aiyoyo 04.03.12 13:47

tigger wrote:The way I read the interview is that GA absolutely doesn't think the body was thrown into the ravine, but he is interested to find out what Gerry and Jon Corner were doing there and what they might have been looking for. Some piece of evidence thrown off the cliff? Perhaps they're making sure it hasn't left any trace.
But since the dogs and the police had been over that area - highly unlikely to be a body. A mobile phone? The usb key with the photographs?
Tennis bag would be unlikely too. Too likely to get stuck between rocks.

I also don't infer from the interview that GA values psychics highly. He said that the FBI work with such people.

You are right, on re-reading the transcript again, GA said it is impossible (even for a giant) to throw a body, irrespective what weight it be, into the sea below since the sea is not 90 degree below the cliff but some distance away. So you could be right the two men were looking for some piece of evidence thrown off the cliff that could incriminate them. There is no way of knowing whether they found what they were looking for, unless the photographer Vasco Celio who took their photos captured anything of that. I bet the two were unaware they were tailed by the photographer who very likely used a powerful zoom for his work.

Amaral believes the place needs a revisit or re-probe under the reopening of the investigation.
The importance is not whether GA places any value on the psychics reading. He said that if they were to get approval to involve FBI , FBI would use medium method as well.
The fact the two canadian psychics who probably knew nothing about the case sensed golf field and cliff, coincidence to where investigators had been looking and searched earlier is eerie. Maybe regardless of the providence of this info, the fact the psychics also draw stretches of a man matching Gerry Mccann, and also said the perpetrator is non-portuguese must have freaked people out.

by **tigger** 04.03.12 14:22

sharonl wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Why did Kate do this?

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There's more
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I'd been looking for that for the June topic, so it was July. By that time we have already had the 10/6 phone ping - the deserted barn. I think the body was moved to its final resting place around then. Which may well have been a hillside, which could well have been the information given to Kate and Gerry by the people who did the burial.
I don't think Kate is an altogether stable person, perhaps never has been. There is one short clip of video when she is in her kitchen and seems to experience real grief. Not faked. I think it dates from 2008.
It may be that the naked truth was too much to bear from time to time, as in the above incident.
Gerry did also say that it was imperative that Kate continued to believe Maddie was abducted. I have no ref for this, other than the poster - it's on Forensic Ling.
The missing blanket is another pointer to conscience/feeling - perhaps it was initially forgotten, then put with Maddie. The PJ mentions fibres in the barn that match fibres in the Renault?
What I'm thinking - Kate felt guilty and hadn't expected to feel this way, all that happened had been better for 'everybody', including Maddie. Sometimes this rationale might not have been enough.

by aiyoyo 04.03.12 16:24

tigger wrote:
aiyoyo wrote:Just read on the mccannfile blog that the photo was taken by an unknown man?
Well could police working anonymously be termed "unknown" ...just thinking aloud.

If not, how did the police get hold of those photos? Did the unknown person report this incident to the Police? All very strange.

What the Police are not saying us should make interesting case for Court I would imagine.

They're printed with Getty images, I'd think it was a journalist who took the pictures - most people wouldn't know where to sell them?
I'm really not convinced that GA is right.
The body was long gone from 5a imo. sorted by Murat's friends - possibly an empty apartment with a fridge somewhere. Murat didn't come back for nothing - so taking him out of the equation is not a good idea imo.
Otherwise the body would be buried on the beach, then dug up and be put in a freezer/fridge, then taken out and taken to a deserted barn around the 10th June, then put into the Renault - then to Huelva?
Way too many moves imo. Only if you believe it was a total surprise to the parents and friends that Maddie died. I don't believe it - because I can use a spoon...
It's too much I think, too many people involved in the moves,

You are right. The photos were taken by a journalist.
The body might have been long gone from 5a but I am not convinced Murat was involved in the disposal.
He might have known the Tapas 9 (or at least some of them, including likely also Gerry). I suspect his return have got to do with property dealings and he might have been used little realising it then.

If he'd helped them why would they finger him and got him into trouble? Why didn't he sue them afterward?

If say she'd been hidden in between fissures at the bottom of the cliff where there is seawater inlet, enveloped in a metal wrapping, that might slow down the deterioration, then probably moved again. I wonder whether Gerry was alone or he'd an accomplice with the disposal or burial.

Certainly their best mate Jon Corner and kate's cousin Michael Wright are up in it right up to their neck imo, at least in the helping to cover up. You can see why the mccanns felt its imperative they keep up their pretense 'cos otherwise they would drag their friends and relatives into their mud.

by **tigger** 04.03.12 16:33

Aiyoyo, I think those rocks were searched with dogs the next day? There can't have been any opportunity to revisit such a place if you'd hidden a body there. Then where would they get the metal wrapping from? What if the dogs would smell it anyway?

Imo Maddie was long gone and safely stored by 3/5. For one thing: the McCanns couldn't know whether the police were going to deploy dogs that very night - as soon as they'd called the police they had no sure way to get back to a temporarily stored body - it was out of their hands.

Dr. Roberts translated Gerry's statement 'I played no part in the disappearance of etc' into 'no active part' etc. I don't think he did either, none of his clothes had a scent on them.

by Guest 04.03.12 16:50

tigger wrote:

Dr. Roberts translated Gerry's statement 'I played no part in the disappearance of etc' into 'no active part' etc. I don't think he did either, none of his clothes had a scent on them.

I do wonder though about no scent on Gerry's clothes - given that he'd been back home several times before the dogs sniffed their clothes, and family members had been back and forth, it's possible that clothes were taken home and/or disposed of and fresh clothes brought over to portugal from home...

I know there are early photos of kate wearing the checked pants and also photos of Sean wearing the red T-shirt
(on the Sean like sea bass day) ..that the dogs alerted to , so obviously not all clothing that had been in contact with a cadaver was removed but maybe the ones that were obviously known to have been in contact were removed....?

by aiyoyo 04.03.12 19:44

tigger wrote:Aiyoyo, I think those rocks were searched with dogs the next day? There can't have been any opportunity to revisit such a place if you'd hidden a body there. Then where would they get the metal wrapping from? What if the dogs would smell it anyway?

What! As in 4th May? or after the two men had visited the rocks? Which begs the question, if the search was on 4th, what made the Police searched that particular area ( a hunch) or is that part of the general areas covered by Police with search dogs without realising or placing any significance on any particular area, and it was pure coincidence that particular area covered were later re-visited by the Gerry and Michael?

Imo Maddie was long gone and safely stored by 3/5. For one thing: the McCanns couldn't know whether the police were going to deploy dogs that very night - as soon as they'd called the police they had no sure way to get back to a temporarily stored body - it was out of their hands.

That is on the premise you believed the death occured before 3/5, which is my belief too, but not quite as far back as people seemed to think. If they were unable to go back to a temporarily stored body after having raised the alarm, how did they get it into the "hired" car later? No matter where their first storage place was, they did manage to return to retrieve it, right under the police nose (so to speak) since they were not detected at all despite the surveillance. Of course one could argue they could have been doing that in the dead of the night, and provided the surveillance is not 24 hour basis, they would have evaded the detection, but it would have been hard to accomplish their mission in the dark.

I think you might have underestimated the mccanns ability to manipulate. With so many family members and friends surrounding them, it's always possible to sneak and hide in car and get driven out without the journalists tailing or police noticing. Let's just say, if Gerry weren't desperate to find what he was looking for at the cliff, he could have sent Micheal Wright to go alone and he wouldn't have risked journalists detection. I believe he wasn't aware he was tailed by the journalist nor aware he was photographed.

As to where they could have got hold of metal wrapped, same place they got hold of cleaning agents and more - don't forget this is a couple with a chain of connections to tap into in emergency. They could even have got help from the infamous "golf" buddy (I am sure you can guess who I am referring to)and part of the disposal plan or deed was helped by this buddy.

Dr. Roberts translated Gerry's statement 'I played no part in the disappearance of etc' into 'no active part' etc. I don't think he did either, none of his clothes had a scent on them.

I won't take Dr Robert's words as set in stone either. No "active" part in the disappearance could mean no active part in the accidental death, and not necessary no active part in the cadaver concealment IMO, as I cant believe any outsider who is a third party not related by blood would do that for him, nor would he take that risk, as there is no guarantee the third party wont talk under pressure. Moreover that would not be in line with Gerry's controlling personality not to have control over something that could mean swim or sink for him.

As for the non-scented clothes, logic dictates that if he was prime mover of the body, he would have ensured he disposed of his clothings without a trace. Chances of him taking them back home to UK are slim - reason being if he was conscious of cadaver contamination he would have made sure Kate's clothes were disposed off as well. In fact he would have made sure everything is thrown away. IMHO the CSI dogs took him by surprise.

by **tigger** 04.03.12 20:27

Hi Aiyoyo,
I didn't make myself clear - sorry.
I do in fact think that she was gone from 5a long before the third. That's why Murat had to come back in a hurry, to organize a hiding place. As for retrieving it, if it was in a freezer/fridge somewhere, it could be retrieved by a third party.
We do have the PJ evidence on the 10th June of a phone call between ROB and Gerry when ROB was about 28 km distant from Gerry. I believe that call is connected to the barn where a towel was found as well as fibres which connected the site to the Renault where the same fibres were found. Blanket?
Prior to that there are a few other phone calls the PJ is interested in pertaining to ROB and/or MO, because it means they had the use of a car when they said they didn't. I think those were in May.
The Renault may have been used by one of the above or Wright or Corner to move the body to the final resting place. My guess is around the 10th/11th June, when the McCanns were following up the sighting in Marocco. This false sighting was later proved to have been instigated by one of the Metodo3 group. So that whole weekend looks like a set-up to me. Nobody watching the car.

Those pictures by the rocks, what if they had a few non traceable mobiles and had chucked those off the cliffs? Something like that. I can't see that the tennis bag would be safe there. Or were they looking for a safe place to have a conversation?

by **Nina** 04.03.12 21:07

Is it to the top of this headland that the McCanns frequently jogged to?

by aiyoyo 04.03.12 22:28

Nina wrote:Is it to the top of this headland that the McCanns frequently jogged to?

Hmmm. not sure, but kate and gerry was seen and photoed at the same cliff too, having conversation and strolling in front of it.

Go to getty image website and you will see those photos as I dont know how to attach them, sorry.

by aiyoyo 05.03.12 3:10

HI Nina

Follow this link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and you will see photos of Kate and Gerry at the rocky cliff,

by Miraflores 05.03.12 7:47

This false sighting was later proved to have been instigated by one of
the Metodo3 group. So that whole weekend looks like a set-up to me.
Nobody watching the car.

You might have hit on something here.
As far as I am aware the McCann's never followed up any other sitings, so why rush off to investigate that one?