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The great difference between the truth and a lie

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Post by Jill Havern on 13.10.11 21:27

@tigger wrote:
The other great difference between the truth and a lie is that the truth is usually simple and a lie is invariably complicated.

"We went out to dinner leaving the kids most nights and we came back and they were still there" is really simple.

As is, unfortunately, "We went out one night leaving the kids but one of them got out of the apartment and fell off the balcony". Or, "We went out one night leaving the kids and we got back and one of them had had a serious accident". Or, "We went out one night leaving the kids and we got back and one of them had got out and been run over by a car."

The alternative is somewhat more complicated: "We went out one night leaving the kids, not realising that we'd been watched by a predatory paedophile for several days, who we hadn't noticed, despite the resort being quiet and despite the fact that we felt it was safe to leave the kids, who targeted Madeleine rather than the other kids because she was special, who got into the apartment between our checks, despite the fact we'd doubled the frequency from the night before following the crying incident, which we can't recall happening, avoiding being noticed by Gerry, who was talking to Jez, on the other side of the road to that claimed by Jez and Jane, who wasn't seen by Jez or Gerry anyway, just before she saw the abductor, who must have gone out through the window, despite no-one noticing it open and without leaving any marks, because the door slammed when Kate went in, and it's odd about those dogs, but Kate had handled dead bodies when she went to work in her holiday pants and took the cuddle cat, and anyway the twins' sandals were in the boot of the car with the nappies and the rotting meat, but we're totally confident in each other's innocence and our legal and PR team are too."

Original summary written by 'bestbefore' and posted on goodqualitywristbands blog
http://goodqualitywristbands.blogspot.com/2010/04/blight-on-humanity-gerry-mccann.html
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Post by steevo1962 on 17.10.11 11:36

I don't know if this link has already been posted, apoligies if so?

It is a very interesting analysis of the one year on interview. It's strange how they talk so comfortably as if they are talking about an ordinary day during their holiday and show no flashback emotion of the terror that a normal parent would experience re-telling the events.

One Year On

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Post by russiandoll on 17.10.11 12:06

watched this twice, and there is a definite change from calm, controlled, as you say recollection of an ordinary rather than an extraordinary event and the hours preceding it.
Kate shows genuine emotion in her face and voice when she starts to talk about not being there for her daughter when she was crying. It was interesting to hear 2 things....could it have been when Maddie was going to sleep[ in which case it would seem Kate ignored her cries or she surely would have told the interviewer she remembered eventually going to her daughter]. She then gets very emotional talking about Maddie having woken up. Whatever one of these scenarios Kate is considering and recalling, she is clearly distressed. Gerry looks more and more ill at ease as the interview progresses, he goes from a near smile recalling the question from his daughter about why crying was ignored to looking sad as Kate gets distressed. He is affected by her words and his own memories imo.
But they both regain their composure. Its as if there has been a sudden brief eruption of emotion from Kate after unusual calm and composure and then everything settles down again. Gerry appears to be reassuring her by stroking her arm, a tender gesture seeing his wife upset;however I am not convinced he is the protector, I sometimes get the impression that she is being controlled by these gestures and that he is signalling her to calm down maybe for his sake. He is much more impassive facially, but I noticed he swallows a lot, he is profoundly uncomfortable in this interview. This pair are tied together by the secret they share and I doubt that others who share in it actually know the full story.
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Post by steevo1962 on 17.10.11 12:20

Watch Gerry squirm and shuffle on his chair as Paxo cleverly breaks the continuity of Gerry's prepared script!

It seems like the interview had a set agenda and experienced Paxo was having none of that which threw McCann to the extent that he nearly chokes in his defensive attempt to get the interview back on his track.

1.07 is the point of interest to ponder.

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Post by russiandoll on 17.10.11 12:39

he allows Gerry to get back on track doesnt he? he feels uncomfortable pushing it given the circumstances of there being a vanished daughter I think.

did a p.s. to my earlier response to your first video clip, could not send it as maybe posting at same time as this second clip from you...but ther is another very brief burst of genuine emotion near the when Kate says that she knows Maddie felt loved by her. I recall all the talk of Maddie having astrong bond with her father, there is a distinct sense of regret here for me that she has mistreated her daughter in some way and not just once.......to the extent that the little one felt unloved by her mother.
However, as usual, the brief burst of emotion is rapidly reined in due to self preservation and self interest being the supreme priority.
I can understand that any woman with an abducted child woud have to regain control for her own sanity and the well being of her children, but the emotion while being genuine might not be for the child but for herself[ she is distressed when she mentioned persecuting herself in the middle of the clip]........ and occurring as it does, very briefly in what is a calm and somewhat contrived monologue[ all the facial expressions of surprise, like an actress...did it happen that way? ] the overwhelming sense you get of the pair in this clip is it is all about them, not their daughter. The little interludes are mere blips in a very controlled, premeditated discussion.
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Post by ufercoffy on 17.10.11 12:46

Kate McCann "What dyou mean, what dyou mean you woke up?" (grab, shake, shake)

what

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Post by russiandoll on 17.10.11 13:03

yes I thought I heard this too. went to read in another part of the forum as I needed a break to think about the part of your clip you just highlighted, it jumped out at me but I did not want to comment until I heard it again in context in case I was over- analysing it, but with a clear head it still shouts out something very significant I believe. There arent many logical inferences to be drawn from this little snippet, surely. I should have trusted my judgment first time around !
What's the saying.......the devil is in the detail?
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Post by steevo1962 on 17.10.11 13:20

I'd like to give my own experience of my ex-partner and mother of my 2 daughters 'Bond' in the context of a difficult child and the circumstances that lead me to comparing it to Kate McCann.

My 2 daughters were born at 26 weeks (3 months premature). After my 1st daughter was born we both entered the world of the unknown and all the stress and complications that were involved. We had tried for 2 years to conceive and it really does put a strain over your relationship as a couple and can push you to the verge of separation. But with strength you work hard and get through it. My 1st daughter was the 'perfect child' with no real further problems for my partner, I or my daughter.

2 years later after trying hard again, my youngest daughter was born the same at 26 weeks, although my partners waters broke at 24 weeks and with constant monitoring hels on as long as it was safely possible to do so.

After she was born it immediately became apparent to myself that there was a distance between my partner and our new daughter. I worked nightshift as a Taxi driver and I would come home about 4.00 am and my partner would be crying and walking the floor with my daughter while the other slept soundly. This went on for months and eventually I contacted the midwife who then came to visit us at home. I noticed that the midwife was looking more on my partner than my daughter and I knew that she had the same feelings as myself that there was a 'Bonding' issue with them.

We had various specialist getting involved and they decided that there was nothing wrong with my daughter. Now the fact that she genuinely hadn't really slept for 2 years didn't seem to be a problem as far as they were concerned? I had to take over every morning to let my partner get sleep before I could go to bed for my night shift.

As my daughter got older (2-3 years old) I had a discussion with a client in my taxi about the problem and it was suggested that I buy a book by a Professor Green which talked about AHDD. I read the book and everything pointed to this behaviour although there is different degrees of AHDD I, and not being an expert concluded that my daughter had about 65% of the signs which meant that if it was treated at that time, we would be able to halt it's progress. My partner refused to accept this and basically began to resent our daughter for disrupting what was previously the perfect mother and child relationship she had with our 1st daughter.

My daughter is nearly 18 years old and her relationship (Or lack of) with her mother has torn her apart, affected her education, relationships etc.

She's always been a 'firecracker' like Maddie and my partner has always resented this behaviour. As we were allowed home with her from the hospital after she was born, the nurses all warned us jokingly 'That we had our hands full with this one!'. But my daughter cries at least once or twice a week, confused as to why her mum doesn't love her?

My daughter was thrown out by her mum at 16 when she came to stay with me permanently, although I had tried for many years to get her to move in with me, she always went back to her mum, time after time after time returning upset and sometimes even suicidal following the treatment she got from her mother. Aparently she didn't fit into her life-plans, cold calculated and disgusting.

What I am getting at is that Kate and Gerry's claim that Maddie being a difficult child brought them closer didn't happen I my partners experience and Kate's profile has a lot of similarities to my exe's and I have the opinion that when the twins were born, Madeleine would have acted up and aswell as the arrival of the new twins, drained the energy out of Kate and put a lot of emotional pressure on the couple.

A world with the twins and without Maddie was probably idilic in the eyes of the McCanns and therefore Madeleine probably became a real emotional and physical burden on Kate with Gerry working full-time and the long hours just like my daughter became to my ex-partner.

Let me know your thoughts?
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Post by russiandoll on 17.10.11 13:41

Kate makes no secret in the book of how difficult life was with Maddie in the early stages, she tells of her clambering all over her for attention while the twins were feeding, her continuing bouts of colic.

I have to go now as busy and once again I have to rewrite a post as I tried to post a message which did not appear as it looks like you were posting one,....[system clearly prefers yours to mine!]

I believe this part of the video where you see arm grabbing when she says "holding" gives a good clue as to level of frustration, stress and annoyance. WHY ARE THESE FEELINGS AROUSED IN HER AT THE THOUGHT OF HER DAUGHTER WAKING UP? G Amaral was correct in stating the diaries showed an obsession with her children sleeping.
Moreover, nowhere, not in any statements made by herself or her husband, not in her book, does Kate mention what you must infer from this clip.......that Maddie woke up and told them so the next morning.
There are the changing[ therefore suspect] statements to the police:

"Why didn't you come when I /Sean and me/ the twins ...cried last night?"
Well Maddie was obviously awake if she was aware of crying.....but Kate's words clearly show her daughter HAD BEEN ASLEEP.
Why in the book, in which she talks of her great recall being due to the diary she kept and to which she is referring for the book-writing......does she ask herself about this episode:

"did she mean when they were having their bath? "[she also mentions when she was settling down for the night [ BEFORE GOING TO SLEEP].... in which case the crying was ignored as she never says she corrected her daughter by telling her her cries were responded to at any time.

I have always considered the possibility of this crying taking place when the parents were in the apartment, especially as the date is not too distant from Kates anger at Gerry, an incident she makes far too light of in the book imo and glosses over, calling it a storm in a tea cup. I wonder if the little one was woken by them arguing[ or worse] and got distressed at what she might have seen if she left her bedroom to see what was going on.....and actually got caught up in what was going on between her parents?
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Post by tigger on 17.10.11 14:05

Are you aware of the remarks by the family re Maddie? 'That child could throw a tantrum' - 'She was a screamer' . Eileen or Phil remarked that she would never have gone with an intruder. She would have screamed the place down.
Well, a world away from the elfin beauty we have been presented with?
Apart from my conviction that there was something wrong with her, her face is lopsided in many photos, except when she is smiling of course, the heavy eyes, the sleeplessness, it all seems to add up to a troubled child. To have health and mental problems and on top of that to have drawn parents from the wrong planet, wouldn't have made for a happy girl.
After the 3rd May, she became the most beautiful, loving (note: not loved) caring (note: not cared for) beautiful and happy girl in the world.

As parents these are a disaster. They seem to lack the software for natural parenting, getting their cue from fairy tales, as far as I can judge.

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Post by Upsy Daisy on 17.10.11 14:19

if you look at Kate, she has a lopsided face as well, so maybe Madeleine just took after her. Gerry has those kind of eyes with bags under them so maybe she got a mix of them both. When Kate smiles you can't notice it as much but when not smiling one eye almost closes by itself and am sure gets worse with tiredness/stress etc. so I don't look too much into this in photos of Madeleine (if indeed they have all been of her) perhaps her face changes a lot to reflect both parents's facial flaws/characteristics. They call her beautiful, what parent/grandparent/aunt/uncle etc. doesn't refer to their little relatives as beautiful. Have you ever heard a relative saying a little one was an ugly little thing, not very cute, a bit on the odd side in the looks dept....you just don't do you? Well, I know I haven't. Kate may feel self conscious about her own flaws and to recognise them in her child would perhaps force her to recognise them in herself. All parents want their kids to be beautiful therefore most try to make out their kids are (even when they are far from it and/or average). The kind of narcissists that they are would prevent them from ever admitting their kids were average at anything looks/intelligence, etc.
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Post by steevo1962 on 17.10.11 15:38

@tigger wrote:Are you aware of the remarks by the family re Maddie? 'That child could throw a tantrum' - 'She was a screamer' . Eileen or Phil remarked that she would never have gone with an intruder. She would have screamed the place down.
Well, a world away from the elfin beauty we have been presented with?
Apart from my conviction that there was something wrong with her, her face is lopsided in many photos, except when she is smiling of course, the heavy eyes, the sleeplessness, it all seems to add up to a troubled child. To have health and mental problems and on top of that to have drawn parents from the wrong planet, wouldn't have made for a happy girl.
After the 3rd May, she became the most beautiful, loving (note: not loved) caring (note: not cared for) beautiful and happy girl in the world.

As parents these are a disaster. They seem to lack the software for natural parenting, getting their cue from fairy tales, as far as I can judge.

Exactly my experience and without the help of friends and relatives, I probably would have had to move out and bring up my daughter on my own at a very early stage.

My ex-partner appears to the outside to be a normal caring mother, but privately I have seen, heard and observed the cold unfeeling way she treats my daughter. Even now if my daughter contacts her for advice or is upset about something, her mother preaches to her rather condescendingly than listen with compassion. She is and has been IMHO a thorn in the side of this Narcissistic person that pretends to be her mother!
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Post by tigger on 17.10.11 16:30

We all have emotional baggage, but I think I understand your daughter. My mother didn't so much not love me as to actively dislike me. In company she was quite normal, but when you got her alone - Well I left home at 18 and never came back. Even so, and I think I see this in your daughter, I tried to make my mother love me for about another thirty years! Then I gave up, because she never would and it wasn't my fault.
The sooner your daughter realises that her mother simply doesn't have the 'software' as I call it, and that it is in no way her fault, she will be able to get on with her life. She's got you, there's nothing you can do about or for people as damaged as your ex.

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Post by steevo1962 on 17.10.11 16:55

Hi there, thanks for your comments.

I and my daughter try our best to deal with this and as you said you have tried for over 30 years without success, my daughter still tries and tries.

But I didn't really want to make my post all about my daughter and I, I just wanted to try and discredit Kate and Gerry's bonding claim by explaining my theory with regards Maddie's displacement within the family unit, and what I believe explains Kate'cold, matter of fact demeanor when performing for media interviews.

I believe Maddie's behavoural history played a part in whatever happened that evening.
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Post by pennylane on 17.10.11 17:37

@steevo1962 wrote:Hi there, thanks for your comments.

I and my daughter try our best to deal with this and as you said you have tried for over 30 years without success, my daughter still tries and tries.

But I didn't really want to make my post all about my daughter and I, I just wanted to try and discredit Kate and Gerry's bonding claim by explaining my theory with regards Maddie's displacement within the family unit, and what I believe explains Kate'cold, matter of fact demeanor when performing for media interviews.

I believe Maddie's behavoural history played a part in whatever happened that evening.

Very heartbreaking steevo and tigger xx The great difference between the truth and a lie 442775674


I most definitely agree that Maddie's behavioral history was a major factor in her untimely end.
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Post by AskTheDogsSandra on 17.10.11 17:47

@ pennylane

If that's the case then it's even more shocking because a child will only behave as badly as a parent allows. There is always help. You only have to watch programs like supernanny to see that behavioral problems are solveable and these people were supposed to be doctors who should know better! angry
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Post by Guest on 17.10.11 18:07

I don't watch Supernanny any more as I'm not sure whether it's a good idea for people to advertise their failings on TV. However, I do remember one I saw a few years ago - both parents were doctors and they had two sets of twins! They were absolutely clueless and the children were just running wild. I always wonder what happens after the film crew leaves, does chaos descend once again?
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Post by happychick on 17.10.11 18:20

No. Supernanny is there to educate the parents and whilst it takes a while for that to happen (a few weeks) she always seems to cure the problem. It's a great programme.
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Post by Smokeandmirrors on 17.10.11 19:35

Thank you for sharing your experiences Tigger. It is very sad when the parent/child dynamic doesn't work out how we expect it to. Perhaps behind closed doors it is more common than we would like to think. The professional classes etc can keep it more "secret" if they can afford boarding school and nannies. I commend you Tigger for your candour and your daughter is lucky to have you by the sounds of it.

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Post by Ollie on 17.10.11 23:32

Does anyone know what date the Lisbon interview was, it is video no. 7 at the bottom of the first video on this topic. KM demonstrates how the shutter was up when she went into the bedroom.
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Post by littlepixie on 18.10.11 0:08

Steevo1962, I am no expert but it could have been attachment disorder. I had never heard of this until I described my relationship with my daughter to a social worker whilst applying for a job. He asked me if she was premature and she was (although she wasnt as premature as your daughter) and he said that sometimes premature babies just do not bond with their mothers.

Well I heard this wrong and thought he said I didnt bond with her and I was devastated. I loved her more than my life but always felt it was never reciprocated. She never missed me when I wasn't there and still doesn't all these years later. She was very difficult as a child, she "latched on" to other people - but I never got anything back from her. Yes, she writes loving words on birthday cards but there is something missing and I am a mother of other children so I know this.

It is very sad and I am still educating myself about this as it manifests in many different ways.

I wonder if Maddie was a full-term baby or whether Kate had lost other babies.

Eta. Steevo, Just re-read your post and it seems it only happened with one of your daughters so maybe not attachment disorder or maybe it doesn't affect every baby.
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Post by tigger on 18.10.11 7:49

@Ollie wrote:Does anyone know what date the Lisbon interview was, it is video no. 7 at the bottom of the first video on this topic. KM demonstrates how the shutter was up when she went into the bedroom.

Wasn't that part of the TV 'reconstruction which is in four parts? I think it was 2009?
Interesting bringing that up, because she must have gone back to Portugal for it and 5a would have to be available. Wasn't it an C4?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw
This is a link, part one of five.
Take note of Kate's ridiculous hand movements, steepling of hands, flapping arms, whooshing gesture. She'd been coached.

No, my answer is wrong, it is one I haven't seen before, at some stage the banner below mentions 2010, it's a Portugese video.

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Post by Guest on 18.10.11 9:19

@tigger wrote:
@Ollie wrote:Does anyone know what date the Lisbon interview was, it is video no. 7 at the bottom of the first video on this topic. KM demonstrates how the shutter was up when she went into the bedroom.

Wasn't that part of the TV 'reconstruction which is in four parts? I think it was 2009?
Interesting bringing that up, because she must have gone back to Portugal for it and 5a would have to be available. Wasn't it an C4?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw
This is a link, part one of five.
Take note of Kate's ridiculous hand movements, steepling of hands, flapping arms, whooshing gesture. She'd been coached.

No, my answer is wrong, it is one I haven't seen before, at some stage the banner below mentions 2010, it's a Portugese video.

If you mean she went back to Portugal to shoot the documentary, she clearly is demonstrating in their own home. If you see the walls and skirting.
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Post by tigger on 18.10.11 9:47

Moa wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Ollie wrote:Does anyone know what date the Lisbon interview was, it is video no. 7 at the bottom of the first video on this topic. KM demonstrates how the shutter was up when she went into the bedroom.

Wasn't that part of the TV 'reconstruction which is in four parts? I think it was 2009?
Interesting bringing that up, because she must have gone back to Portugal for it and 5a would have to be available. Wasn't it an C4?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw
This is a link, part one of five.
Take note of Kate's ridiculous hand movements, steepling of hands, flapping arms, whooshing gesture. She'd been coached.

No, my answer is wrong, it is one I haven't seen before, at some stage the banner below mentions 2010, it's a Portugese video.

If you mean she went back to Portugal to shoot the documentary, she clearly is demonstrating in their own home. If you see the walls and skirting.

Sorry, I just looked, you're quite right. It's just that a lot of location shots were from PdL, which didn't necessitate Kate being there.
This woman annoys the hell out of me when she is performing like this. She clearly loves it.

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Post by Guest on 18.10.11 10:08

@tigger wrote:
Moa wrote:
@tigger wrote:
@Ollie wrote:Does anyone know what date the Lisbon interview was, it is video no. 7 at the bottom of the first video on this topic. KM demonstrates how the shutter was up when she went into the bedroom.

Wasn't that part of the TV 'reconstruction which is in four parts? I think it was 2009?
Interesting bringing that up, because she must have gone back to Portugal for it and 5a would have to be available. Wasn't it an C4?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhACS6ck-Dw
This is a link, part one of five.
Take note of Kate's ridiculous hand movements, steepling of hands, flapping arms, whooshing gesture. She'd been coached.

No, my answer is wrong, it is one I haven't seen before, at some stage the banner below mentions 2010, it's a Portugese video.

If you mean she went back to Portugal to shoot the documentary, she clearly is demonstrating in their own home. If you see the walls and skirting.

Sorry, I just looked, you're quite right. It's just that a lot of location shots were from PdL, which didn't necessitate Kate being there.
This woman annoys the hell out of me when she is performing like this. She clearly loves it.

I think what she does in the vid is a well trained act... Its what she said in the start so she has to stay to that story no matter what. And then she makes the story more "real" by whooshing her arms and dramatice it.. I do not believe that bit of her story. Or Gerry that he stood there looking at Madeleine, thinking how beautiful she was and how lucky he was and all that phewk..It feels fabricated to gain more sympathi..I also do not believe Madeleine said she had the best day in her life before she went to sleep. Would a 3 year old say somehing like that? I dont think so. I worked in kindergarden for many many years, and kids says the stranges things, but I dont think a child that small would say a thing like that. It would be more, I had fun, or this was fun, not : this was the best day of my life...
I also have problems about Madeleine acually asking her parents : why did you not come when Sean and I was crying last night. Maybe a 5 or 6 year old child would do that , but not a 3 nearly 4 year old I think, Unless the reason for her crying alone was so upseting and out of the normal that she acually remembered it when she woke up. ( maybe it was a fabricated story to make it more believeble that the kids where not sedated) atleast if my kids cries at night wich kids do for all sort of reason, they never talk about it the next day. But that is just my oppinion.. But then again Madeleine was so special , above all other children in the world, so who knows winkwink
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