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The Complete Mystery of Madeleine McCann™
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Photographs and memories

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Post by Nina 03.11.11 18:48

Daisy wrote:No Nina, there were 2 separate pet cremotoriums searched, 1 in Gran Canaria, the other near Praia Da Luz (run by a dutchman).




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Post by tigger 03.11.11 20:40

Nina wrote:
Daisy wrote:No Nina, there were 2 separate pet cremotoriums searched, 1 in Gran Canaria, the other near Praia Da Luz (run by a dutchman).




Oh hec, doh [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Thanks for the facts [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Sorry Tigger [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I did read about the one with the Dutchman, I'm pretty sure it was established that the crematorium hadn't been fired up for a very long time.
To burn a body efficiently, you need a very high temperature, Cremation was common in the Iron Age, even so, we've got loads of pieces of bones amongst the ashes in the urns. And DNA.
I would say that burial of a small body would be a lot more discreet and take a lot less time and preparation than burning. I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong, I'm trying to think like the McCanns and I can truly say that Maddie's body was of no interest to them other than that it should never be found. So the idea of them trying to take it home really doesn't work for me.

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Post by Guest 03.11.11 23:11

Nina wrote:
Moa wrote:
Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If you look at the chin, nose and smile I think it's very easy to see that it is two different girls. Those things never change, your facial futures are what they are and stay like that if you dont take an plastic operation or get sick in some unusual way...

Hi Moa, which do you think are the two?

From my observations I note that the pool/bath girl has a scar through her left eye brow. The pumkin girl looks to have a mouth full of teeth without the gaps, but could be an age thing. Some show a chin with a pointy base, others a flat base.

Certainly the horse picture, who ever she is makes me so sad. A forced little smile from a child who looks ill.

Well the pony girl makes me believe we are looking at three. the pumpkin girls could make it foure...because non of this looks like the others.
I think The fairypink outfit picture looks like the tennis and pdl pool picture. But looks to young as to when the picture is supposed to be taken.¨
If you look at the middle picture in the bottom, she looks much older than any of this three picture. And two of those three are suposed to be taken before that one? well well thinking
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Photographs and memories  - Page 19 Empty Yes, perhaps three

Post by tigger 04.11.11 7:05

If I go along the pics from left to right then:
Pony - girl nr. 1
Fairy - from video and Maddie at age 2-sh. Notice the rather big ears.
Pumpkin - girl nr. 2 (teeth are even, so is neither Maddie nor the Pony girl)
Pool - Maddie scar on left eyebrow which is rarely visible
Tennis girl - ? must be Maddie, look at the ears, which are exactly like another photo of a girl with her hair up, both look older than 4.
Scarf and frizzy hair, could be both same girl, nr. 3, perhaps also pumpkin girl nr 2 at earlier age.
Blonde Maddie without make up! from the photograph of her and the twins, which looks to have been shot by photographer.She looks ill and sad to me.
Poster girl Maddie. Imo that's photoshopped so that she finally looked the way they wanted her to be: perfect, smart and good-looking parents, perfect copy of same.

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Post by Daisy 04.11.11 9:07

tigger wrote:

I did read about the one with the Dutchman, I'm pretty sure it was established that the crematorium hadn't been fired up for a very long time.
To burn a body efficiently, you need a very high temperature, Cremation was common in the Iron Age, even so, we've got loads of pieces of bones amongst the ashes in the urns. And DNA.
I would say that burial of a small body would be a lot more discreet and take a lot less time and preparation than burning. I'm not saying I'm right and others are wrong, I'm trying to think like the McCanns and I can truly say that Maddie's body was of no interest to them other than that it should never be found. So the idea of them trying to take it home really doesn't work for me.



Tigger, right at the bottom of the Daily Mail link I gave
earlier, the Dutchman Evert Hoos claims he closed the crem in Mach 2007. (so
not a very long time) He was forced to close it.

Regarding your second point, Mr Hoos also claims "I can guarantee you
there is no smoke and no toxins. We incinerate using a computerised system that
ensures the furnace operates at 900 degrees celsius which is in accordance with
EU standards" Checking with wikipedia (I know it's not the most reliable
source), it says temps of 870-970 celsius for the modern (human)
cremation process. So fit for purpose I'd say.

I agree what you say regarding the McCanns being cold hearted enough not to
care, but what about all the others involved? Because we can be certain, there's
plenty of people that know Madeleine was not abducted. Family,
friends, VIPS - 'Men of the Cloth' etc.. Surely, it would be expected out of
all these people (potentially) involved, that someone would expect, or demand a
dignified resting place for Madeleine? There's no way they'd get away with such
heartlessness?

I'm not saying I agree with all I've said Tigger, it's just a theory, but one I
feel worthwhile debating even if it's just to dismiss it. And you do give a
good debate, getting to the nitty gritty of stuff [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]





Evert (aka Eef) Hoos is
a very interesting character, (spent 6 yrs in Jail for bomb attacks in Sweden?)
I found he's already been discussed in this thread from last year ( some v
interesting comments) [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And this article (link below) gives some interesting info on how Hoos undertook
work contracts with one government department, despite being under order from
local government to demolish the facilty. The article is dated Apr 2006. Yet he makes no mention of this
fight with the authorities when he presents himself voluntary to the PJ to make
a statement denying his rumored involvement in Madeleine’s disappearance. He
gives a completely different story for the closure. All sounds very dodgy to me.


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Photographs and memories  - Page 19 Empty poolside and donegal photos

Post by russiandoll 04.11.11 9:49

to return to these which get em kindly has posted side by side...

the reason I made my comment on the similarity was maybe a bit impulsive, because as I was looking closely at that strangely narrow neck on the rocks in Ireland photo [ skies can be blue anywhere on a good day and water around Irish coast can be very blue, and clothes the same as the town one near Tullys so I accept original taken in Ireland], what I thought strange was as follows and I'd be glad of your opinions:

a strange narrow neck is soemtimes seen on photos when a person is turning their head sideways [as in the poolside photo, where the neck does not show the expected look if Maddie is looking in the direction shown here], even so the neck looks all wrong.

there is a sun kissed look on the poolside photo despite the pallor [ maybe as a result of too much light in the photo, maybe as a result of a sun block as Maddie is fair and vulnerable to burning?].....that is the same as the other face taken in Ireland. any chance of a really large poolside photo to show the pink areas on the face? I cant do it sorry!

the face is in both photos looking in the same direction, but one shows a downward tilt of the head. Now I know the hair is a much darker blonde on the Irish one and has been sun-highlighted to a massive extent considering there is only weeks between the 2 photos even if Maddie spent some outdoors time with the creche kids in Ocean Club.

I know also that given the amount of photos of Maddie there will be more than one showing her looking in a particular direction and with a similar facial expression.

However, I really got an immediate impression that the faces on these 2 photos could have been taken within minutes of easch other:

I could easily visualise the little girl looking in one direction, being photographed and then another being taken shortly afterwards as she moved her head to look down [into a pool? but on a different holiday if it is believed the last photo has been altered]....
she could have been looking down then begun looking to the side, or vice versa.....I think the relative position of the two faces and those smiles make it quite easy to visualise this scenario.

the alice- band section of the head with the mid length hairstyle though, taken alone looks in all but colour identical to the hair at the pool.
maybe I looked too closely at these 2 photos and am seeing things that I should not be, reasonably, but I still maintain on that Irish shot there was a different face in that picture to the one we can see, that one we can see looking down is froma different photo, I am pretty sure of that.

has some swapping of hair and separately face maybe gone on.....and what is the motive for the messing around with photos in this timeframe?
there has to be a motive for every action.
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Post by russiandoll 04.11.11 10:12

I have studied the photo-montage kindly posted a couple of pages back.......Maddie has a very distinctive chin, not as pronounced and unattractive as the one the actress Jennifer Aniston is famous for, but it is noticeable all the same.......a distinctive dip in the middle of her lower jaw where it does not follow a smooth line from one side to the other. It is noticeable even where you dont enlarge or zoom in on a photo.
so now Im seeing this chin in all thesae photos, so am thinking maybe are of the same girl with changes to the smile occurring over time.....its unusual I know but I have seen an unsure or shy smile in so many Maddie photos that I am unsure mysef as to what she looks like when she gives a cheesy grin...

the eyebrow shape is always distinctive so am trying to look closely at those.
want to try and ensure am not seeing things that are nt there due to over analysis
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Post by russiandoll 04.11.11 10:28

theres a photo on pamalam I cant past in here, Maddie in the fairy outfit caught in motion, def the Maddie I recognise, but the one with the scrunched up eyes and big grin looks like a different girl.........one and the same despite that though. point proved about my over-looking at things.
maybe theres nothing or not as much going on with these photos as I initially supected regarding altering?
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Post by Guest 04.11.11 10:56

I looked at all the pictures on Pamalam's site, and one thing all the pictures of Madeleine have in common is a distinctive pointy chin. So maybe it is all the same girl, but only the chronological order is wrong.
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Post by PeterMac 04.11.11 11:38

Do you mean this one ?
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Post by Nina 04.11.11 12:01

Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I have brought this forward to save nipping backwards and forwards, many thanks Get em for the group.

The main clue for me is the chin, yes I know there are other indications to look at but I am drawn to the very distinctive chin and on some of the photographs it is pointy and others very square. Best to enlarge but for example just compare the tennis ball Madeleine and pink fairy Madeleine with the very pointy chin to the square jaw of the pony riding Madeleine and the red velvet dressMadeleine.

The easy to compare are the pony riding and the fairy as they are side by side. And yes on the fairy pic the little girl is giving a cheesey grin, the pony little girl a sad strained poorly smile. But a smile is with muscle the chin base is bone.

When was the pony photograph supposed to have been taken? Was it close in time to the PdL holiday?

And the bath/pool picture and the fairy picture show the scar over the left eyebrow. Not on any of the others.

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Photographs and memories  - Page 19 Empty Ears and teeth

Post by tigger 04.11.11 13:22

IMO jawlines change a lot, teeth and ears do not.
So for the gap teeth photos we have:
pony (although that's not clear), fairy, pool, tennis, sad one, poster, poolside.
for the big ears we have:
pony (again not entirely clear), fairy, pool, tennis. The rest we can't see but I think the sad one, poster, poolside in any case definitely Maddie.

I think the girl with the blue scarf and the pumpkin could be the same. Their teeth are all close together. The crimped hair one is definitely not Maddie, different smile and the teeth are straight.

It's unlikely that Maddie's teeth were ever different, it is usually once the baby teeth have gone that teeth change. Often means braces to sort gaps out.

And thanks, Daisy, for saying you enjoy our tussles. But that's the beauty of this forum, I've been proved wrong several times and so what? I'm better informed. E.g. I was dead set against Huelva, until Peter Mac et al did so much research and deduction.
Another thought, Russian Doll, you'd be good at this, if only we could get a child psychologist to look at the videos and photographs! Maddie nearly always seems unsure and half the time doesn't look very well to me. But her body language e.g. in the ghastly fairy video and the Christmas one, the one in the hallway, surely would tell an expert something.


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Post by russiandoll 04.11.11 14:30

yes PMac that is the one where I initially thought it was another girl due to the real cheesy grin and narrowed eyes, but another shot on pamamlam site shows the face of Maddie as I have come to know it, I can paste it into a message but I am not allowed to send it, I can only say that as I am sure most of you will know, if you google Madeleine Beth McCann photos and go to pamalam site, there are a lot of photos of Maddie at different ages.
What I dont understand is why the elaborate alteration of images as appears to be the case in some photos ?
But it certainly is dubious that a current photo was not immediately made available asap after event May 3 '07.
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Post by jd 04.11.11 15:36

russiandoll wrote: But it certainly is dubious that a current photo was not immediately made available asap after event May 3 '07.

Even more dubious were printed posters with an old photo of Maddie on it being distributed an hour after they discovered her missing, and before the PJ got there!!!!

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Post by Guest 04.11.11 16:19

Nina wrote:
Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I have brought this forward to save nipping backwards and forwards, many thanks Get em for the group.

The main clue for me is the chin, yes I know there are other indications to look at but I am drawn to the very distinctive chin and on some of the photographs it is pointy and others very square. Best to enlarge but for example just compare the tennis ball Madeleine and pink fairy Madeleine with the very pointy chin to the square jaw of the pony riding Madeleine and the red velvet dressMadeleine.

The easy to compare are the pony riding and the fairy as they are side by side. And yes on the fairy pic the little girl is giving a cheesey grin, the pony little girl a sad strained poorly smile. But a smile is with muscle the chin base is bone.

When was the pony photograph supposed to have been taken? Was it close in time to the PdL holiday?

And the bath/pool picture and the fairy picture show the scar over the left eyebrow. Not on any of the others.

I Think the pool and PDl pool picture could have been taken around the same time. As they look closer in age.
What I dont understand about the PDL pool pic is that she looks much younger than other pictures of her taken before this..And the tennispic also look much older than the PDL picture despite that they are supposed to be take within only a few days...

The Ponny girl look nothing like the others picture., I think it is taken just a couple of months before the trip. But what does it matter? She do not look like Madeleine in any age.. Im starting to believe that maybe that was the real madeleine? Because im sorry, but she is not that pretty, and Kate beein obsessed with her beauty... And the pumpkin girl is also very different in every way..She reminds me of someone,, can't figure out who, maybe a celeberty of some kind :)

And Madeleine with the faked curls on, do not look like her at all, and looks like a girl closer to 5 or 6, not a 3 year old. NO WAY she can be 3 years on that picture...
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Post by rainbow-fairy 04.11.11 18:11

Moa wrote:
Nina wrote:
Get 'em Gonçalo wrote:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I have brought this forward to save nipping backwards and forwards, many thanks Get em for the group.

The main clue for me is the chin, yes I know there are other indications to look at but I am drawn to the very distinctive chin and on some of the photographs it is pointy and others very square. Best to enlarge but for example just compare the tennis ball Madeleine and pink fairy Madeleine with the very pointy chin to the square jaw of the pony riding Madeleine and the red velvet dressMadeleine.

The easy to compare are the pony riding and the fairy as they are side by side. And yes on the fairy pic the little girl is giving a cheesey grin, the pony little girl a sad strained poorly smile. But a smile is with muscle the chin base is bone.

When was the pony photograph supposed to have been taken? Was it close in time to the PdL holiday?

And the bath/pool picture and the fairy picture show the scar over the left eyebrow. Not on any of the others.

I Think the pool and PDl pool picture could have been taken around the same time. As they look closer in age.
What I dont understand about the PDL pool pic is that she looks much younger than other pictures of her taken before this..And the tennispic also look much older than the PDL picture despite that they are supposed to be take within only a few days...

The Ponny girl look nothing like the others picture., I think it is taken just a couple of months before the trip. But what does it matter? She do not look like Madeleine in any age.. Im starting to believe that maybe that was the real madeleine? Because im sorry, but she is not that pretty, and Kate beein obsessed with her beauty... And the pumpkin girl is also very different in every way..She reminds me of someone,, can't figure out who, maybe a celeberty of some kind :)

And Madeleine with the faked curls on, do not look like her at all, and looks like a girl closer to 5 or 6, not a 3 year old. NO WAY she can be 3 years on that picture...

Okaaayyy, I'm REALLY confused! In the above pictures, the 'tennis ball' photo and the 'pony ride' photo in particular - Maddies hair is BROWN!!!. Why is her hair brown? Was her hair really brown, digitally altered to blonde, or vice-versa? If you want your child found, you'd release a picture that actually LOOKED like them surely? Those pictures, IMHO, look like separate children!

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Photographs and memories  - Page 19 Empty The picture of two Madeleine's

Post by Guest 14.11.11 19:50

somewhere on this site, on this thread I think, I've seen a picture of Amelie, Maddie and whats looks like another slightly bigger Madeleine..
I always thought that picture was altered with and something that did not come from the mccanns. No I saw this Documentary: "wheres Madeleine - 48 hours".. look at the picture at 2.15 Does anyone know if this picture was given by G + K to the media or this documentary?

I also noticed, in the start of this one, or the start of the mocumentary, when they sit around the kitchentable painting, that Sean refered to Madeleine as Maddie. The Part where Kate ask wich name she has painted and what the name of his other sister is...

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Post by rainbow-fairy 15.11.11 7:39

Moa wrote:somewhere on this site, on this thread I think, I've seen a picture of Amelie, Maddie and whats looks like another slightly bigger Madeleine..
I always thought that picture was altered with and something that did not come from the mccanns. No I saw this Documentary: "wheres Madeleine - 48 hours".. look at the picture at 2.15 Does anyone know if this picture was given by G + K to the media or this documentary?

I also noticed, in the start of this one, or the start of the mocumentary, when they sit around the kitchentable painting, that Sean refered to Madeleine as Maddie. The Part where Kate ask wich name she has painted and what the name of his other sister is...

Sean called her 'Maddie'? And here's me thinking the family only EVER called her 'Madeleine'! Now where could I possibly have got that idea from! Silly me... Wink

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Post by Angelique 27.11.11 7:16

Just to return yet again to the anomaly of the "Pool picture". (my private obsession)

Is it possible that the background of this picture is someone else's picture and Gerry and Amelie and Madeleine are all then photoshopped in. This could explain the young looking Madeleine, Gerry "hovering" on the edge of the pool and a recent photo of Amelie with a black line behind from another photo.

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Post by Guest 27.11.11 8:57

You're not alone there Angelique though with me all the photos supposedly taken in PDL and in Donegal a month earlier are extremely dubious, not to mention others which are almost certainly not Madeleine! It's always been my belief that the poolside one could be genuine BUT taken the previous summer. I can't comment on the problems with shadows and reflections but what jumps out at me is that the photo looks as if it was taken on a blazing summer's day yet the weather in PDL then does not support that.
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Post by uppatoffee 27.11.11 10:33

Is there not some kind of computer software that could check these photos out? I have iPhoto which uses some kind of basic face recognition software, but I am sure there must be lots more sophisticated programs that would be a look at this and make something of the many different faces of Madeleine.

Re the pool photo has anyone used Gerry to measure Madeleine and Amelie against? Like using the tennis ball to calculate the height of the girl in that photo. After all, his height should be fairly constant unlike that of his children!
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Post by Angelique 27.11.11 20:37

Marian

Thank goodness you are with me on this smilie - I am getting a bit worried that I can't seem to leave this subject alone. I totally agree with you that the Tapas9 all said the weather was not good in their statements - so as you remark, we see a blazing hot day round the pool with Gerry "suffering almost" in the heat. I also can't comment on shadows and angles - too techinical for me I am afraid. We did have the discussion earlier about the season - but I wonder does anyone know what type of tree the one in the background is. If its deciduous would in be in full leaf in May. Or perhaps is an evergreen. In fact, do they have deciduous trees in Portugal?

uppatoffee

I imagine that the forensic people may have this sort of equipment - I wonder if they have also found all these pictures strange. I think 'tigger" on here has tried to calculate this before with another photo (I think the tennis one) I know tennis balls were involved - oh and also the playground one where if you straighten out Madeleine she almost reaches Gerry's shoulder.


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Post by uppatoffee 27.11.11 22:04

Just out of curiosity I copied 20 photos of Madeleine into iphoto and applied the face recognition software. I used one of the Everton photos as the starting point. iphoto then scanned all the other photos in my albums and identified ones that might also be her. It came up with 3 other photos from the 20 that might also be her, based on the algorithms it uses! big grin
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Post by Angelique 27.11.11 22:15

uppatoffee

Oh well done - I don't have any software at all for photo enhancement etc. unfortunately. So, some that were attributable as Madeleine and then possibly 3 others that "might be". It's that "might be" that's interesting Shocked

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Post by rainbow-fairy 27.11.11 22:30

uppatoffee wrote:Just out of curiosity I copied 20 photos of Madeleine into iphoto and applied the face recognition software. I used one of the Everton photos as the starting point. iphoto then scanned all the other photos in my albums and identified ones that might also be her. It came up with 3 other photos from the 20 that might also be her, based on the algorithms it uses! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Oh, wow! Nice one, uppatoffee! Which ones are they? I get sooo frustrated, I spend so much of my time thinking about Maddie and justice for her, but don't even know what she looks like! Crazy. Wink

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Post by jd 28.11.11 0:20

Angelique wrote:Marian I totally agree with you that the Tapas9 all said the weather was not good in their statements - so as you remark, we see a blazing hot day round the pool with Gerry "suffering almost" in the heat.

I have always thought this too. And Maddies hands on the tennis photo..she would have had to have been wearing gloves the whole holiday. Yeah right!, it weren't that hot! And in the Donegal photos there were 2 photos which show her hands as being so very weird for one reason or another

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Post by listener 28.11.11 1:05

Surely there is an offical record of the temperatures recorded that week in Luz?
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Post by Guest 28.11.11 9:34

listener wrote:Surely there is an offical record of the temperatures recorded that week in Luz?

All I can find at the moment is this link to average temperatures - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - posted at 6.31 on 7th June.
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Post by finch 28.11.11 17:07

I don't know if this is of any help but on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you can find the weather conditions on any given day in the past. I copied May 3, 2007 as an example for Lagos Portugal.



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Post by rainbow-fairy 29.11.11 1:27

finch wrote:I don't know if this is of any help but on [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you can find the weather conditions on any given day in the past. I copied May 3, 2007 as an example for Lagos Portugal.



[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Interesting - thanks, finch.
So we have IF photo was taken @ 2.29 pm on May 3rd 07, as K claims the temperature was 19•C and there were scattered clouds. Now I don't like the heat but even I could cope with that. GMcC looks more like he's sitting in 29•C!
Is there anywhere else in the bewk that Kate mentions weather e.g rain etc? Seems the above is a good site for getting hour by hour info...

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