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Photographs and memories Part 2

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Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by tigger on 04.06.12 6:56

jd wrote:There is something which at governmental level they need to keep quiet and covered up. Why else would they get involved, certainly not because of 2 NHS doctors. At that time gordon brown had far more important things to worry about taking over as prime minister which was his lifetime ambition...so why are 2 NHS doctors he didn't know (in public) and their neglect such an important issue? I have always had the feeling that the mccanns were a problem they could do without...and why gerry mccann was always so smug

That is so exactly right!  My feeling was all along that the dearest wish of these people (Brown et al) would be never to see or hear about the McCanns again. If they could ship them off on the equivalent of the Titanic, it would solve all their problems.
Smug is written all over the  McCanns faces. Only thing out of their control are the people who no longer believe and those who have never worshipped at their altar.
In my imagination - the film of quite another book:
A TV screen - two people at the head of a table answering questions on the true faith - the only truth and the martyrdom of the two innocents.. a voice over recites the creed..
Cut to head office where a furious man is pacing to an fro: 'Will no one rid me of this turbulent medic!'
Four men in suits leave the room and hurry to a waiting unmarked car with darkened windows.
Cut to a TV studio where a blond woman and a dark haired man have taken refuge behind the host who is reciting the gospel according to the true faith....

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by jd on 05.06.12 0:57

McCann final "appeal" to Gordon Brown - TUESDAY, 11 DECEMBER 2007
Steve Winyard, one of the three remaining financial backers that still puts money in the McCann legal fund, made a public threat against the British Prime minister, demanding a stronger intervention from UK Government in the case of Madeleine disappearance. On a interview with the British Media, Mr. Winyard attacked Gordon Brown for refusing to accept a request for a meeting at a ministerial level, with Gerry and Kate.
However, Philomena McCann, Gerry's sister, admitted that the couple is satisfied with the role that Gordon Brown has been playing in the investigation of Madeleine's disappearance. She told the Press that some people doesn't want “to do everything in the eyes of the media” and praised the British Prime-Minister for having “set things in motion at the start..”
The sister of Gerry also told journalists that nothing is changed, in the relations between Mr. Gordon Brown and Gerry McCann who, since the beginning of this case, have been in close touch, but reminded that the British Prime-Minister “has to be very careful in telling other countries how to run their business."
------

Who is Steve Winyard telling the government for a meeting at a ministerial level?

Just have to laugh at Philomena McCann reminding the British Prime-Minister “has to be very careful in telling other countries how to run their business."....who the hell does she think she is!

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/mccann-final-appeal-to-gordon-brown.html
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by jd on 05.06.12 1:02

Former Gordon Brown adviser is director of PR company that worked for the McCann
Nicola Murphy, who was special adviser in the HM Treasury (just like Justine McGuiness) and later followed Gordon Brown to the Parliament, as his personal adviser, until June 2007, is an Associate Director of Hanover PR company, part of the Media & PR organization of the McCann family. Hanover, a company set up by John Major's former press secretary, Charles Lewington, was in charge of handling contacts between the Media and the McCann family until November 22, when that job was transferred exclusively to Clarence Mitchell.

http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/former-gordon-brown-adviser-is-director.html


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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by jd on 05.06.12 2:24

Didn't make anything of Maddies eye then gerry?

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by rainbow-fairy on 05.06.12 4:09

friedtomatoes wrote:
rainbow-fairy wrote:
Jean wrote:The top photo has been discussed before and, judging by the paunch very common in young toddlers, Madeleine must have been no more than two. The length of her hair also rules out that it could have been taken in 2007. I've never heard anything claiming that it was.
You know what Jean there have been so many photo's 'purporting' to be Maddie I don't even have a clear idea what she looked like ~ unfortunately 'eye shadow' sticks in my head for ALL the wrong reasons Sad

which photo(s) purporting to be madeleine do you think are not her? There was one photo of her in a halloween costume which didnt seem like her but apart from that you can see the connections in all photos
Can you? I can't so I'll assume you're joking there...
I am in the 1-2% of the population known as a 'superspotter' - once I see a face, I'll recognise it altered or otherwise.
What about the photo's where the 'coloboma' has moved position? Same child, different photo-shop? Why photo-shop pics of a child you wanted found anyway???

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by jd on 05.06.12 4:40

These two pictures were amongst a group of three that were released by the family, to the Press Association, on 04 May 2007.

A fourth, photocopied picture, had already been produced by the holidaying group - on the night of Madeleine's reported disappearance - and distributed throughout Praia da Luz.

On 06 May 2007, during a Sky News broadcast, Ian Woods said: "The McCann family also released new photographs of Maddie to help jog the memories of anyone who may have seen her.

"They were taken just a few days ago during what should have been a relaxing family holiday. "Two of them were taken inside the apartment from which she was abducted. She was wearing white pyjamas when she was last seen."

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id280.html


-----

I think these pictures were taken at the same time as the one below. Same pink wall background and pink t-shirt & environment. None of these were taken in apartment 5A in PDL
Putting the obvious hair aside, Maddie still looks different in these. She doesn't seem to have the dimples on either cheek on the photo below like she does on the top ones. The teeth seem different too
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Ribisl on 05.06.12 6:21

I agree jd, that these photos were not from PDL, another lie or another case of misreporting, although to me they look like they were taken possibly in the same children's room at home on two different occasions because of her hair.
Did the apartment 5A have a pink wall? The answer - NO.

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by rainbow-fairy on 05.06.12 9:53

jd wrote:Didn't make anything of Maddies eye then gerry?

What a f**king to**er...

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by friedtomatoes on 05.06.12 16:08

rainbow-fairy wrote:
friedtomatoes wrote:
rainbow-fairy wrote:
Jean wrote:The top photo has been discussed before and, judging by the paunch very common in young toddlers, Madeleine must have been no more than two. The length of her hair also rules out that it could have been taken in 2007. I've never heard anything claiming that it was.
You know what Jean there have been so many photo's 'purporting' to be Maddie I don't even have a clear idea what she looked like ~ unfortunately 'eye shadow' sticks in my head for ALL the wrong reasons Sad

which photo(s) purporting to be madeleine do you think are not her? There was one photo of her in a halloween costume which didnt seem like her but apart from that you can see the connections in all photos
Can you? I can't so I'll assume you're joking there...
I am in the 1-2% of the population known as a 'superspotter' - once I see a face, I'll recognise it altered or otherwise.
What about the photo's where the 'coloboma' has moved position? Same child, different photo-shop? Why photo-shop pics of a child you wanted found anyway???

I will have to agree to disagree here. I have seen the various photos where someone has said the position of the coloboma looks different, I cant imagine why this would be changed/photoshopped at all and cannot see anything which clearly shows it has been. There is one photo in addition to the one I mentioned where Madeleine looks like a different child. I will try to find it and edit this post.

eta:

the two photos immediately below the first one in the spotty top

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id17.html

In general I think alot of it is in the eye of the beholder opinion.

I agree re Ian Woods misreporting or misunderstanding on the photo taken with Madeleine with crimped hair. That was not in flat 5a.

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by friedtomatoes on 05.06.12 16:27

rainbow-fairy wrote:
jd wrote:Didn't make anything of Maddies eye then gerry?

What a f**king to**er...

LOL

I think it was kate who said in that peirs morgan interview something like, to be honest, we havent made much of her eye defect

no, not really! didnt they want google to change the two o's to depict the coloboma? What about all the ads with the huge LOOK slogan.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1105/11/pmt.01.html

This is also the interview where Gerry Mccann said it was possible that a number of holiday makers over the years staying at 5a couldhave had a key....and? they somehow, after managing to not return the keys on departure, decided to go back years later to err burgle the place? kidnap a child? you are right rainbow f******** t*********

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Olympicana on 25.06.12 19:43

Hi folks Long time lurker here but felt compelled to break my silence after coming across a rather interesting story on age-progression imagery. Like most people, I have always automatically assumed that age-progression images were associated with missing children and were specifically requested by grieving parents to find a missing, living and findable child. According to the following story the assumption that age-progression images are always requested by grief-stricken parents to find a missing, living and findable child seems no longer to be the case.

Lansing father on quest for age-progression image

George McCann decided this would be the year he answered the question that had been troubling him.

What would his daughter, who died of leukemia in 1989 at age 8, look like today?


The Lansing man and his family had plenty of memories and pictures of Christine — the little girl with dark hair and a wide grin that showed off the gap left by her missing front tooth.

But McCann wanted a sketch or photo to help him envision her 31-year-old face.

“My wife is turning 62 on June 26, and I thought it would be a perfect birthday gift,” McCann said.

About four months ago, McCann started making calls.

His contacts included the Lansing Police Department, Michigan State Police, Ingham County Sheriff’s Department Delhi Division and Michigan State University Art Department.

McCann received enough return calls that his wife started asking questions.

He confessed to her what he was up to, but his search started drying up and he was losing hope.

McCann’s message to me Monday pulled at the heartstrings and immediately put me in hunting mode.

I started in the same direction as McCann, thinking there had to be a police artist who produced such sketches for missing persons cases.

But my search quickly took me toward the private sector — and Phojoe, a Clarkston business that specializes in age-progression photos.

Specialty business

Phojoe opened 10 years ago in a village between Detroit and Flint to restore old photos and ended up producing a few age-progression photos.

“We started doing it as a fun thing and realized the families liked this and wanted this,” Phojoe co-owner Emy Craciumescu said.

Age progression now is about 30 percent of Phojoe’s business and attracts clients worldwide, Craciumescu said. Phojoe’s age-progression renderings of celebrities and missing people have aired on major news networks. The company regularly works with law-enforcement agencies on cold cases, but the bulk of its customers are similar to McCann.

After I informed McCann about Phojoe, he followed up right away and sent the company about 15 photos of Christine, his two sons, his wife and him. Phojoe requests up to five pictures of the subject as well as two to three photos each of the parents and siblings. Full details are available at www. phojoe.com.

The basic price for the service is $99. McCann ordered two extra 8x10s and his total bill came to $126.

Waiting with anticipation

McCann said he can’t wait to see the updated photo of Christine — a Willow Elementary School student who died on April 8, 1989, after a 10-month battle with leukemia. The family spent much of those final months in hospitals in Lansing and Ann Arbor. The Make-A-Wish Foundation provided a trip to Disney World where Christine got to meet Mickey Mouse, participate in a parade and visit Epcot Center.

McCann’s wife, Laura, said she has had mixed feelings since learning of her husband’s plans. “I’m apprehensive,” she said. “The other part is the curiosity. It’s hard to imagine exactly how it’s going to come out.”

Christine’s age-progression photo should be ready in about two weeks. George McCann promised to share the finished product for a follow-up column.

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20120620/COLUMNISTS12/306200021/Lansing-father-quest-age-progression-image?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|p&nclick_check=1

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Guest on 25.06.12 22:44

I've heard of age progression photos for reasons other than trying to find a missing person - just googling those three words brings up various sites. As to how accurate such images might be - who knows?
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by tuom on 25.06.12 23:17

Oh I am not too sure about that IMO that child's death was a tragedy and the beautiful description of how she looked at the time of her death would be memory enough for me , but to each thier own ....
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by aquila on 25.06.12 23:34

Jean wrote:I've heard of age progression photos for reasons other than trying to find a missing person - just googling those three words brings up various sites. As to how accurate such images might be - who knows?

Hi Jean,

You are absolutely right there, however seeking age progression photos of people/relatives known to be dead leads me to believe that therapy would be a better choice.

The McCanns sought an age progression photo of Madeleine in America (the video of K and G looking in awe of the photograph) and I think Yorkshire Constabulary iirc (I can't swear to this so someone help me out) also provided one. The latest age progression of Madeleine has been released publicly by Scotland Yard (with the help of K & G who apparently asked the twins their opinion of the age and then it was tweeked it a bit). The latest age progression photograph of Madeleine is on the McCann's findmadeleine.com site. Log on and it's the first thing that hits you. Then enter the website and be guided immediately to their products/donate money and you won't see an aged progression photo. T shirts for sale still have Madeleine aged 3 with a coloboma (they are out of stock in certain sizes). A sleeveless T shirt (only available in small size) still has the old photo. The new bewk still has Madeleine aged 3 with a coloboma. Now can someone tell me what faith TM have in age progression photos when their 'products' don't change to embrace these professionals who have given their service at no cost to TM?

Kate McCann allegedly asked of J K Rowling if it would be possible to place bookmarks in the Harry Potter books. Kate could also have placed bookmarks in her OWN newly released paperback book with an age progression photo of Madeleine. Surely there's enough money in the fund to finance and insist on that. I guess not.
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Angelique on 26.06.12 1:47

A bit late I know but mention was made regarding dental charts for Madeleine not being available.

If she had visited a Dentist there would be a chart done but no xrays obviously. These charts are done verbally by the Dentist even for children. They are done so quickly it's easy not to realise, as teeth are numbered, upper and lower, and charts are printed on the files.

Whether Kate did take Madeleine I expect we won't know for sure, but it's good practice to start early so they are not phased by the experience. Being a GP one would assume that she did.

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Olympicana on 26.06.12 2:07

Jean wrote: As to how accurate such images might be - who knows?

Hi Jean and thank you for posing that question. Unfortunately, despite the widespread use of age progression photos it seems little scientific research exists on their effectiveness.

Universisty Of Arkansas Newswire

Improving a Tool to Identify Missing Children

Research to look at effectiveness in age-progressed photos

Monday, March 05, 2012

FAYETTEVILLE, Ark. – The National Science Foundation has awarded $300,587 to University of Arkansas psychology professor James M. Lampinen and colleague Charles D. Frowd to learn more about age progression as a tool in the search for missing children.

In about one-third of the long-term cases of missing children, investigators use photos that have been altered to suggest how a child may have aged, although making an accurate prediction about the appearance of an individual child is difficult. Despite its widespread use, little scientific research exists on the effect of age progression on recognition memory for missing children, according to the researchers.

“The proposed research is one of the first systematic attempts to understand the factors that impact the success of forensic age progression. Knowing more about the factors that lead to successful age progressions will allow practitioners to create more accurate estimates of the appearance of missing children, resulting in an improved likelihood of recovering missing children,” the researchers wrote.

Over a three-year period, the NSF-funded research will take theory-based questions into a carefully controlled laboratory environment, which will mimic real-world searches for missing children. For example, the researchers wrote, the research will examine one suggestion that “presenting multiple age progressed images can produce recognition that is superior to presenting a single age progressed image.”

In 2008, Lampinen led one of the first laboratory studies to test the effectiveness of age-progressed photographs. He, Jack D. Arnal and Jason L. Hicks found that age-progressed photos did not improve recognition of children’s faces. However, there were some hopeful findings that raised questions for ongoing study.

“In the situations tested, people were able to spot the child’s face at a rate better than chance, with or without seeing the age progression photos,” Lampinen said. “This suggested that people have an intuition about age progression.”

Lampinen is an associate professor of psychology in the J. William Fulbright College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Arkansas. Frowd is a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Central Lancashire in Great Britain.

Lampinen’s earlier research on age-progressed photos appeared in the journals Applied Cognitive Psychology and Psychology, Crime and Law. Arnal earned his doctorate in psychology from the University of Arkansas in 2008. Hicks is an associate professor of psychology at Louisiana State University.

http://newswire.uark.edu/article.aspx?id=17859

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by tigger on 26.06.12 6:43

Jean wrote:I've heard of age progression photos for reasons other than trying to find a missing person - just googling those three words brings up various sites. As to how accurate such images might be - who knows?

I think experiments were done in the US on living people obviously - apparently the results were very disappointing. The age progressed photos of the children didn't look much like the actual adults at all. Doesn't surprise me.

Sorry, just read the above - large grant - you'd have to come up with some result.

Could someone age progress the McCanns by photographs from 3/5/07 to now? Be interesting to see when they had just lost their child - looking healthy, tanned and well rested, to the present day - not looking so good imo due to having to live the lie every single day. That can be very aging.
So there would be one photograph showing them after a normal five years and the other one.

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by bobbin on 26.06.12 7:27

Olympicana wrote:
Jean wrote: As to how accurate such images might be - who knows?

Hi Jean and thank you for posing that question. Unfortunately, despite the widespread use of age progression photos it seems little scientific research exists on their effectiveness.

Universisty Of Arkansas Newswire

Improving a Tool to Identify Missing Children

Research to look at effectiveness in age-progressed photos

Monday, March 05, 2012

FAYETTEVILLE, Ark. – The National Science Foundation has awarded $300,587 to University of Arkansas psychology professor James M. Lampinen and colleague Charles D. Frowd to learn more about age progression as a tool in the search for missing children.

In about one-third of the long-term cases of missing children, investigators use photos that have been altered to suggest how a child may have aged, although making an accurate prediction about the appearance of an individual child is difficult. Despite its widespread use, little scientific research exists on the effect of age progression on recognition memory for missing children, according to the researchers.

“The proposed research is one of the first systematic attempts to understand the factors that impact the success of forensic age progression. Knowing more about the factors that lead to successful age progressions will allow practitioners to create more accurate estimates of the appearance of missing children, resulting in an improved likelihood of recovering missing children,” the researchers wrote.

Over a three-year period, the NSF-funded research will take theory-based questions into a carefully controlled laboratory environment, which will mimic real-world searches for missing children. For example, the researchers wrote, the research will examine one suggestion that “presenting multiple age progressed images can produce recognition that is superior to presenting a single age progressed image.”

In 2008, Lampinen led one of the first laboratory studies to test the effectiveness of age-progressed photographs. He, Jack D. Arnal and Jason L. Hicks found that age-progressed photos did not improve recognition of children’s faces. However, there were some hopeful findings that raised questions for ongoing study.

“In the situations tested, people were able to spot the child’s face at a rate better than chance, with or without seeing the age progression photos,” Lampinen said. “This suggested that people have an intuition about age progression.”

Lampinen is an associate professor of psychology in the J. William Fulbright College of Arts and Sciences at the University of Arkansas. Frowd is a senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Central Lancashire in Great Britain.

Lampinen’s earlier research on age-progressed photos appeared in the journals Applied Cognitive Psychology and Psychology, Crime and Law. Arnal earned his doctorate in psychology from the University of Arkansas in 2008. Hicks is an associate professor of psychology at Louisiana State University.

http://newswire.uark.edu/article.aspx?id=17859

Perhaps this suggestion is too simple.
Instead of handing this project to university psychology-geeks, (age-progression-imaging NOT being a brain/mental-perception thing) they should go to the local police/forensic science/art college and hand photos of 3 year children out to the students.
From a previously selected group of children who are currently 8 years old, and unknown to the students, the identity of the children would be retained by the research panel alone.
From the photos of the 3 year olds, ask the students to make age-progression images up to 8 years of age, and compare with the real/known thing.
This would allow any amount of real-time observation/comparison and could furnish a valuable and potentially accurate, teaching/learning tool to future forensic students.

It could also provide a useful earner, as a side-product to budding art students, for bereft families who would like such an image-aging facility to recover loved ones lost for other reasons.

But this is all too down-to-earth isn't it.
Obviating the need to shift strange, tax-payer funds around, to keep abstruse dons in their ivory towers, it is unlikely to take off as an idea.
What we are looking at here is 'jobs for the boys', justifying their futile time-wasting exercises, when a sane or useful outcome is clearly not the main agenda.
If it were so, then it would already have been put in place in a more sensible environment. Or would it? Is it too simple an idea?

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by rainbow-fairy on 26.06.12 8:08

I have to say I find the story posted by Olympicana a bit icky and distateful (no offence meant to poster) BUT, being fair and tolerant I guess if you REALLY want to envisage what your dead child qould look like aged, go for it.
I lost a babby in 2007 and I can picture what they would look like every day. If they are in your heart, I find the brain remembers

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by bobbin on 26.06.12 8:37

rainbow-fairy wrote:I have to say I find the story posted by Olympicana a bit icky and distateful (no offence meant to poster) BUT, being fair and tolerant I guess if you REALLY want to envisage what your dead child qould look like aged, go for it.
I lost a babby in 2007 and I can picture what they would look like every day. If they are in your heart, I find the brain remembers

I agree rainbow-fairy, but there is no accounting for individual needs. To some an age-enhanced picture could give the comfort that helps them to remain positive, just as those who go to a spiritualist seek some form of contact which helps to fill their void. We only know how we as individuals choose to handle loss.

I look at my aunt now who so resembles my grandmother when she was the same age and it brings me a comfort of warm memories. I look at my uncle now, who was very similar in looks to my father, and I can imagine that that is how my father would look if he had not passed away too young.

To some it may seem ghoulish, to others it could offer a life-line and turn darkness into light.

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by jd on 25.09.12 1:18

TheXmas06Maddies!

Spot the same red top and the same present with a start gift-label, now... spot the anomalies! Curious, isn't it?



Xmas06NOTW



Spot the odd one out



Curious, isn't it?



SoMany2ChooseFrom!



Compare



Whether Fact or Fiction, all pictures of Maddie from the holiday


------------
XMAS 2005
....Look at Gregor




Baby Maddie

...Photoshopped.Same kate but child with hair!


13thApril2007-TEETH


Sept 2007.....2 years between these 2 photos????


Maddy? +boy

...Looks like the same boy?

At Praia, 07


Who'sThatGirl?




1metre high,Praia07


Bruises


British Files Not Released




Art of Abduction

Shorts in Praia







https://s574.photobucket.com/albums/ss184/ThreeMaddies/

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Guest on 25.09.12 8:45

Nice collection of Pictures JD.

There is one picture that is not correct, the birthday picture, It is not on M's second birthday.. Its either the twins birthday or their baptism...

And the last picture you posted, its taken from a vid isnt it? It seems like two girls or two Maddies on it, one with shorter hair than the other. Does anyone know where this vid or picture original came from?
A very strange picture I think...

When looking at all these pictures it almost looks like there have been two Maddies...
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by Spaniel on 25.09.12 8:51

I wonder why KM didn't cover her bruises.
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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by sami on 25.09.12 9:18

Jd the hammock photo is interesting, in particular your reference to the child being the same boy as in the Sun photograph of Kate and child. I commented before in relation to the Sun photo, I found it strange the child is wearing blue. Unusual to use blue for a small girl of that age. Is the girl walking away from the hammock Amelie by any chance ? The girl in the photo looks to have a mark on her lip, as did Amelie. Perhaps its my computer/eyes.

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Re: Photographs and memories Part 2

Post by jd on 25.09.12 10:32

Moa wrote:Nice collection of Pictures JD.

There is one picture that is not correct, the birthday picture, It is not on M's second birthday.. Its either the twins birthday or their baptism...

And the last picture you posted, its taken from a vid isnt it? It seems like two girls or two Maddies on it, one with shorter hair than the other. Does anyone know where this vid or picture original came from?
A very strange picture I think...

When looking at all these pictures it almost looks like there have been two Maddies...

When were the twins born? Was it January 2005?....Maddie looks so different sitting on the sofa than blowing out the candles, either a month between these photos or taken on the same day? Gregor is also interesting in that little set of photos, there is a photo of him after he/john mccann did a run for Maddie in 2008 (its in the Donegal topic somewhere) and he looks the same age or younger in 2008! Weird

In the last picture I posted, grandma Healy looks about the same age but Maddie doesn't..Plus the bottom one Maddie is wearing the same dotted top as on the sofa...was the bottom one taken from the Xmas 2006 video?

When I read the statements I see a very clear straight forward answer of the truth of what happened in PDL. But when I look at the photos then I think was kate mccann a baby factory, there seem to be a load of lookalike Maddies, its very intriguing I must admit


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Who pulled the strings?...THE SYMINGTONS..And the Scottish connections...Look no further if you dare
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