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When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Nina on 22.03.16 23:44

Tony Bennett wrote:
roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Not necessarily. If the ground is not completely flat, water after a rain shower can gather in very shallow pools of water and can also leave 'tide' or 'high water' marks - look at any pavement after a heavy shower.

If however you stick with the suggestion that this was cleaning water, in order to advance any theory about when the photo was taken, you would surely have to establish at least these two things: 

1) WHEN the pools were cleaned i.e. how often, on what days, at what times etc., but also

2) HOW they were cleaned - with water? with brushing? sometimes with water? sometimes with brushing?
Daft question but why would you clean a tennis court?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by worriedmum on 22.03.16 23:51

quote ''How come she was all raw and red and sunburnt and scratched and bruised etc. by Tuesday (when Kate says the Tennis Ball Photo was taken), yet is, by comparison, so pale she looks almost white in the so-called Last Photo, allegedly taken at 2.29pm pm on the Thursday, two days later??   '' unquote



Tony I would also draw your attention to the fact that the tennis photo was reproduced 'flipped',
 (that is, with Madeleine facing the
opposite way) in IIRC, Dutch newspapers. This would mean that the discoloured arm in the tennis photo would be the same arm visible on the 'last' photo....which does not look discoloured to me...
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.16 0:30

Nina wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Not necessarily. If the ground is not completely flat, water after a rain shower can gather in very shallow pools of water and can also leave 'tide' or 'high water' marks - look at any pavement after a heavy shower.

If however you stick with the suggestion that this was cleaning water, in order to advance any theory about when the photo was taken, you would surely have to establish at least these two things: 

1) WHEN the pools were cleaned i.e. how often, on what days, at what times etc., but also

2) HOW they were cleaned - with water? with brushing? sometimes with water? sometimes with brushing?
Daft question but why would you clean a tennis court?

Not a daft question...

The recommendations (not for OC) are here....




It could be cleaned with a power washer.. (not recommended)





Or a special device that keeps the water pressure on the court at an acceptable level evenly...





We dont know what the process for OC was but we know it was scheduled for Tuesday midday, two hours after mini tennis...






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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by canada12 on 23.03.16 1:48

Verdi wrote:
canada12 wrote:And why does Madeleine apparently have a very sunburned right arm, but an untanned and very white right hand with a well-defined dividing line between the two parts?
That will be the small sunburn she had on her arm - you know, the innocent explanation for anything and everything the police might find.  smilie

In their innocence, kids of that age are generally physically relaxed and rubbery - in that photograph she looks awkward and rigid.  Can't really put my finger on it but somethings not right.

When I look at that photo I see the following:

1. A child's head with a hat on it
2. A two-year old's body - chubby and compact
3. The long legs and feet of child older than two
4. The long right arm of a child older than two
5. A right hand of a child much much older than two
6. A peculiar left hand with a strange curve in the wrist area

The above six body areas may not necessarily be parts of the same child.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by canada12 on 23.03.16 2:47

The reason why the tennis balls photo looks all wrong is because it IS all wrong.
I'm not an expert photoshopper but I did a quick edit job and positioned the child's head where it looks more natural.You can see if you remove the "hunch" in the back, you have a child standing in a much more realistic and natural position than in the photo that was published. If you temporarily accept that the tennis balls photo is a composite the question then becomes why present such an awkward photo to the world?
1. A bad and rushed photoshopping job?
2. The child standing upright looks much older and taller than the Madeleine presented to the world?
3. Hunched makes the child look smaller and shorter?
Answers on a postcard....


Here's the original so you can compare:


(Sorry I don't mean to disrupt this thread which is about when the photo was taken, not what it shows.. mods please move this and my other posting above to a more appropriate area if you feel it's off-topic - thanks)

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 23.03.16 6:00

Tony Bennett wrote:6. Girl looks to have bigger, sturdier body frame than Madeleine





I don't think Madeleine looks like she's got a bigger, sturdier body frame in the Tennis Balls photo. She looks about the same as she does in the Playground Photo. Plus, the head sizes of the Tennis Balls Photo and the head size of the Last Photo look about the same.

If anything, Madeleine's body size looks smaller in the Last Photo than it does in the others, even though the head size still looks the same. 

I also think that in the Tennis Balls pic she's just hunched over because she's using her chin to keep the balls in place. 

The Last Photo shows Madeleine's body pointing towards the right and her face pointing to the left so I don't think the position of Madeleine's body in the Tennis Balls pic looks out of place.

It's the suntan of the Tennis Balls photo that doesn't fit with the pale Madeleine in the Last Photo that was allegedly taken two days after the Tennis Balls photo. How could she have lost that suntan within two days?

Maybe the Tennis Balls photo was the Last Photo?
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Google.Gaspar.Statements on 23.03.16 6:23

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by JRP on 23.03.16 9:58

In my opinion, the tennis court does look wet in the area around the white lines. I'm not sure if that helps in dating the image, because it isn't even clear that this image belongs to this holiday.
Most people tan over a holiday, here we have premature fading. It's not possible really is it.

The angle the image was taken from is quite high, suggesting a tall adult took this image. The fact that the body and background share this angle of view proves that the two are indeed one. 
Is the face part of the original image? 
Without seeing a higher resolution version, it is difficult to say, but the lighting direction, the shadows under the chin and under the feet are the same. That doesn't mean however that shadows can't be added, or overall colour balance adjusted for one to match the other.

It is an odd looking photograph, with an awkward pose.
The hunched position makes the head sit further forward than one might expect.

I have seen a thread which suggests this could be an old photo of KM rather than MBM,  that would date the image to 1971-1972. It can't be, as this is a shot from a digital camera, not a film camera. It's not a scan either because anti-aliasing artifacts where the hat meets the court tells us so.

One observation about the shadows, suggests the sun, although diffused, is almost directly overhead. The shortness of the shadows under her feet for example are short and contained. Perhaps this helps with a time it was taken?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Nina on 23.03.16 11:18

HiDeHo wrote:
Nina wrote:
Tony Bennett wrote:
roy rovers wrote:If that is a tide line then the court must be wet from cleaning not rain as the rest of the court is not wet. Rain doesn't creep back like that when it dries - it dries evenly.

Not necessarily. If the ground is not completely flat, water after a rain shower can gather in very shallow pools of water and can also leave 'tide' or 'high water' marks - look at any pavement after a heavy shower.

If however you stick with the suggestion that this was cleaning water, in order to advance any theory about when the photo was taken, you would surely have to establish at least these two things: 

1) WHEN the pools were cleaned i.e. how often, on what days, at what times etc., but also

2) HOW they were cleaned - with water? with brushing? sometimes with water? sometimes with brushing?
Daft question but why would you clean a tennis court?

Not a daft question...

The recommendations (not for OC) are here....




It could be cleaned with a power washer.. (not recommended)





Or a special device that keeps the water pressure on the court at an acceptable level evenly...





We dont know what the process for OC was but we know it was scheduled for Tuesday midday, two hours after mini tennis...






Thank you HiDeHo. I hadn't realized these type of courts were so high maintenance. 
So this was the beginning of the season in PdL and people were wanting to use the courts.
In my experience of hotel staying pools and surrounding areas are cleaned evening or even overnight in some instances so as not to disrupt holidaymakers but to clean courts through the day certainly would disrupt the arranged matches and coaching sessions.
Just read this...........................
https://medium.com/@ProAllWeather/how-to-maintain-a-tennis-court-surface-for-budding-wimbledon-champions-ab773033ea19#.kwf2r34w5

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Tennis Court Cleaning

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.03.16 11:48

CMOMM member 'parapono', who is currently taking a short holiday in Praia da Luz, has just sent up these two pictures of the cleaning of the tennis courts:


PHOTO 1





PHOTO 2



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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Doug D on 23.03.16 11:52

Could be wet, or could be just stained..
 
I don’t think we ever heard an opinion from PeterMac on the actual courts after his visit.
 
It would also be helpful to know what the OC court cleaning regime was. Assuming the court is the hard 'painted or coloured tarmac' type, (which it looks like to me), I suspect it would just be a bit of brushing &/or hosing.

Did we ever hear from a trustworthy source as to whether the little ones used soft foam balls or proper tennis balls?
 
The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts and also JRP’s ‘suggesting a tall adult took this image’, as it was almost certainly taken from the elevated play area above the courts, not that either help much.
 


MM’s ‘head being in an unnatural position’ I think can be explained, as she is using her chin to help hold onto the balls.

There used to be a high definition copy of the photo at one time, but I can’t find it at the moment.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Doug D on 23.03.16 12:01

TB:
 
‘CMOMM member 'parapono', who is currently taking a short holiday in Praia da Luz, has just sent up these two pictures of the cleaning of the tennis courts’
 
Face masks suggests this is not ‘routine’ cleaning, but a chemical clean to get rid of algae etc that has accumulated over the winter. The hoses in the background I would suggest are the usual method, but maybe she could ask them.
  
At the same time could she make enquiries about the tennis balls/foam balls used and also the brand name, as that could give a clue as to whether the photo should be facing left or right?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.03.16 12:02

Doug D wrote:The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts...
Agreed, BUT always assuming that the fence was there in 2007

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.03.16 12:05

worriedmum wrote:quote ''How come she was all raw and red and sunburnt and scratched and bruised etc. by Tuesday (when Kate says the Tennis Ball Photo was taken), yet is, by comparison, so pale she looks almost white in the so-called Last Photo, allegedly taken at 2.29pm pm on the Thursday, two days later??   '' unquote

Tony I would also draw your attention to the fact that the tennis photo was reproduced 'flipped',
 (that is, with Madeleine facing the
opposite
way) in IIRC, Dutch newspapers. This would mean that the discoloured arm in the tennis photo would be the same arm visible on the 'last' photo....which does not look discoloured to me...
Ah! Very helpful observation, thank you @ worriedmum

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Doug D on 23.03.16 12:18

TB:
 
‘Agreed, BUT always assuming that the fence was there in 2007’
 
Pretty sure it was. This photo supposedly from April 2005:
 
 
   
Jeff J MitchellCollection: Getty Images News 2008 Getty Images PRAIA DA LUZ, PORTUGAL - APRIL 05: The fenced off tennis courts in the Ocean Club ...

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by kaz on 23.03.16 12:19

I'm just wondering why ,  if the tennis pic photo has been photoshopped ,  why any credence should be given to the tennis court in the background. It could be anywhere, anytime : Why are we so sure that the tennis court background wasn't an 'add on ' to complement the other bit of fakery? In my opinion we can't .

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.16 12:23

Tony Bennett wrote:
Doug D wrote:The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts...
Agreed, BUT always assuming that the fence was there in 2007

Not sure of the year this was taken but I saved it in July 2011

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by JRP on 23.03.16 12:26

Doug D wrote:Could be wet, or could be just stained..
 
I don’t think we ever heard an opinion from PeterMac on the actual courts after his visit.
 
It would also be helpful to know what the OC court cleaning regime was. Assuming the court is the hard 'painted or coloured tarmac' type, (which it looks like to me), I suspect it would just be a bit of brushing &/or hosing.

Did we ever hear from a trustworthy source as to whether the little ones used soft foam balls or proper tennis balls?
 
The following photo explains and dismisses TB’s point 14 in his list about safety playing next to an adult game, as there is a fence between the courts and also JRP’s ‘suggesting a tall adult took this image’, as it was almost certainly taken from the elevated play area above the courts, not that either help much.
 


MM’s ‘head being in an unnatural position’ I think can be explained, as she is using her chin to help hold onto the balls.

There used to be a high definition copy of the photo at one time, but I can’t find it at the moment.

I didn't realise that there was a raised area around the court from where a downward shot could be taken. So thank you for pointing that out.
That said, the angle of the figure and the background match, so that part of this image is genuine.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 23.03.16 12:29

According to the Lobster Club activities schedule, the mini tennis session was entered for Monday 30th April, not Tuesday 1st or thereafter..




Understandably the schedule would be adjusted according to weather conditions on any one day.  Whatever, Mark Warner staff display a somewhat lackadaisical approach to record keeping.  Can't say I'm surprised, not exactly a 5* luxury destination.

I'm with Nina on this one, I can see the need for regular maintenance of tennis courts used for championship play but I doubt very much if the Ocean Club PdL are quite so diligent.  The booking schedule only shows on cleaning session, as identified by HiDeHo, at lunch time allowing only two hours to dry (IF it was washed) before the next booked session.  That's pushing it a bit at that time of year - depending of course on the composition of the court surface.

This issue seems to me to be yet another example of people, days and dates being juggled about in order to confuse and reinforce the abduction 10:00 pm Thursday 3rd May fabrication.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Nina on 23.03.16 12:36

Verdi wrote:According to the Lobster Club activities schedule, the mini tennis session was entered for Monday 30th April, not Tuesday 1st or thereafter..




Understandably the schedule would be adjusted according to weather conditions on any one day.  Whatever, Mark Warner staff display a somewhat lackadaisical approach to record keeping.  Can't say I'm surprised, not exactly a 5* luxury destination.

I'm with Nina on this one, I can see the need for regular maintenance of tennis courts used for championship play but I doubt very much if the Ocean Club PdL are quite so diligent.  The booking schedule only shows on cleaning session, as identified by HiDeHo, at lunch time allowing only two hours to dry (IF it was washed) before the next booked session.  That's pushing it a bit at that time of year - depending of course on the composition of the court surface.

This issue seems to me to be yet another example of people, days and dates being juggled about in order to confuse and reinforce the abduction 10:00 pm Thursday 3rd May fabrication.
Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time,so what's that all about?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Tony Bennett on 23.03.16 12:42

Nina wrote:
Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time, so what's that all about?
Probably it means that any mini-tennis session took place in a grassy area (like the 'parachute' session the day before)...

...which, in essence, means that all claims made about the mini-tennis session and the Tennis Balls Photo are...

...a complete load of rubbish...

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 23.03.16 12:42

@Nina wrote:  Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time,so what's that all about?

Throwing foam rubber simulated tennis balls around I shouldn't wonder - hence mini-tennis/grass time.  Providing rain didn't stop play of course!

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.16 12:47

Verdi wrote:According to the Lobster Club activities schedule, the mini tennis session was entered for Monday 30th April, not Tuesday 1st or thereafter..




Understandably the schedule would be adjusted according to weather conditions on any one day.  Whatever, Mark Warner staff display a somewhat lackadaisical approach to record keeping.  Can't say I'm surprised, not exactly a 5* luxury destination.

I'm with Nina on this one, I can see the need for regular maintenance of tennis courts used for championship play but I doubt very much if the Ocean Club PdL are quite so diligent.  The booking schedule only shows on cleaning session, as identified by HiDeHo, at lunch time allowing only two hours to dry (IF it was washed) before the next booked session.  That's pushing it a bit at that time of year - depending of course on the composition of the court surface.

This issue seems to me to be yet another example of people, days and dates being juggled about in order to confuse and reinforce the abduction 10:00 pm Thursday 3rd May fabrication.

The activity sheet doesnt seem to be too reliable. I would place more credence in the tennis booking forms





Also Georgina Jackson the tennis coach (note that she doesnt specifically identify Maddie, only that she was among a group)

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post1779.html#p1779
She relates it was one of the preferred activities of the McCann couple in that they had several lessons throughout the days and up to the date of the disappearance of their daughter Madeleine, it being that the child also had a class, on Tuesday, 1 May (10-11h00), that class [in which] she was among a group of children was conducted by the deponent.


It is definitely important to look at whether it is possible/likely that it is a watermark ( inside the lines) and the resulting conclusions if it is.

That is my point in bringing it to the attention in this thread.

If it is not a possibility then it needs to be taken off the list of discrepancies.

If it is possible then it needs to be considered.


I am NOT out to create a 'conspiracy theory' on this. I don't worry about being wrong. The truth is what is important to me.
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When was Tennis ball carrying photograph taken?

Post by willowthewisp on 23.03.16 12:53

Verdi wrote:@Nina wrote:  Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time,so what's that all about?

Throwing foam rubber simulated tennis balls around I shouldn't wonder - hence mini-tennis/grass time.  Providing rain didn't stop play of course!
Might be a good start to ask Gerry and his brother in law when they compiled them onto a CD disc for the Portugal PJ after Alex Woolfall had scrutinised images from the couples camera?
Three wise Monkeys?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 23.03.16 12:54

Tony Bennett wrote:
Nina wrote:
Just noticed after all these years that it says Mini Tennis Grass time, so what's that all about?
Probably it means that any mini-tennis session took place in a grassy area (like the 'parachute' session the day before)...

...which, in essence, means that all claims made about the mini-tennis session and the Tennis Balls Photo are...

...a complete load of rubbish...

Mini tennis was allocated to Court 2 and also the police questioned Rachael about which court they played on (she got it wrong).

You may note also that she claims it was Thursday but it was the SHARKS that played on Thursday, so when she says it was the last time she saw Maddie , does she mean Thursday or Tuesday when Madeleine's group played.?

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post484.html#p484

Rachael Mampilly Oldfield
1578 “I think you’ve already covered this one, when was the last time you saw Madeleine”?
Reply “Erm it was when she was having a tennis lesson, in the morning yeah, about probably between ten thirty and eleven on the morning of the third of May”.
00.41.13 1578 “At the tennis courts”?
Reply “Yes at the tennis courts”.
1578 “Any particular court”?
Reply “Erm it was the one, if you were standing facing the courts, it’s the one on the left I think”.
1578 “Got your exhibit here, number 101, are they the tennis courts”?
Reply Yes, it was, it was that one, there are only two courts there”.
1578 Okay”.
Reply So it would have been this one here, where the children were”.
1578 “What’s that one there and what is that”?
Reply “Erm that’s the, I think that’s probably, well the outside bit of the, of the crèche overlooked the tennis courts and so maybe that’s that, that’s not quite sort of accurate I don’t think that, that diagram, the crèche was here and there’s an outside area here and the indoor, in, inside of it there”.
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