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When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 25.03.16 9:37

@Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade  big grin but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red?  Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..

Raining on parade?  winkwink

One thing I would like to make clear is that I am watching this thread with interest to see what the overall consensus would be.

Its important to know that I didn't post this topic to try and prove it is a water mark and therefore the pic was not taken at mini tennis as Kate claims.

I was suggesting that IF it is a water mark then there are questions to be asked.

I would be happy to have it proven to be a photographic error.  Then we could move on.

For me, facts and truth  are far more important than being right so I appreciate everyone's effort to try to establish what the mark is, whichever way it takes us.
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 25.03.16 12:22

Look at the photograph again and you will notice that above the curious marking on the green margin, there are also less conspicuous irregularities in the surface.  It would appear from the photographs posted up thread by Tony Bennett, that a regular run of the mill garden hosepipe is used for cleaning purposes as it can be clearly seen within the tennis court.   If the local water has a high chemical content, which I suspect most likely, this will leave a residue in the form of staining.  In addition, PdL is a coastal region where salt is forever present in the atmosphere - this also leaves a residue in the form of staining following rainfall, heavy mist, morning dew etc.  It can even bleach out colour to an extent over time as can the ultraviolet rays from the sun.

Frankly, no matter how many times one studies this image from different perspectives, I can't see how the marking on the court can ever be determined conclusively.   Even if it were possible to identify the marking, there still  remains the questions - when it was taken, where it was taken, on what tennis court, by whom was is it taken, on whose camera was it taken, is it a genuine photograph etc.

In my opinion, this subject has reached an impasse so I have nothing further to add.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 25.03.16 14:08

Verdi...

The points you raise could be true and I don't think we could ever conclusively determine what the mark is, but then there is very little conclusive results in any of this case...

The reason I asked about opinions on the 'watermark' was not part of an overall effort to determine all of the point you raised as I have tried to make clear.

I recognised what could possibly be a watermark on that photo and have wondered for a few years whether it was because the court was wet but had no confirmation of the weather until a few days ago.

IF it is due to being wet and IF there was no rain and it was determined that the court was not hosed/cleaned etc prior to mini tennis on Tuesday then I was pointing out the discrepancy in Kate claiming it was taken at mini tennis.

'When' may have then been determined by the times the court was wet for that pic to be taken.

Who took it, what camera, whether it was photoshopped is not why I posted this topic and all suggestions in this thread have been really interesting.

Ultimately, I would like to know...

Did Kate take that photo at mini tennis?

If not then WHY would she lie?
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Spacecowboy on 25.03.16 14:12

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Rogue-a-Tory on 25.03.16 14:28

@HiDeHo wrote:
@Verdi wrote:Sorry to rain on your parade  big grin but is the consensus suggesting that wetness on the tennis courts, be it the result of rain or cleaning would start to dry in a margin between green and red?  Rain or washing would cover the whole court area, not just the inner green area or the outer red area so why is it drying/draining along the edge of the green only?

It's not unusual following rainfall or watering for areas to dry out gradually at a different rate but this normally occurs in patches, not as suggested in this photograph.

Or am I missing a vital clue..

Raining on parade?  winkwink

One thing I would like to make clear is that I am watching this thread with interest to see what the overall consensus would be.

Its important to know that I didn't post this topic to try and prove it is a water mark and therefore the pic was not taken at mini tennis as Kate claims.

I was suggesting that IF it is a water mark then there are questions to be asked.

I would be happy to have it proven to be a photographic error.  Then we could move on.

For me, facts and truth  are far more important than being right so I appreciate everyone's effort to try to establish what the mark is, whichever way it takes us.
It's always appeared as a water 'tidemark' to me. I've played plenty of sport on different hard surface over the years and from experience they dry in those type of patterns especially with no direct sunlight but just wind - plenty of that on the Algarve.
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Tony Bennett on 25.03.16 15:29

@Rogue-a-Tory wrote:
It's always appeared as a water 'tidemark' to me. I've played plenty of sport on different hard surface over the years and from experience they dry in those type of patterns especially with no direct sunlight but just wind - plenty of that on the Algarve.
If it is a water tide-mark, and having regard to the rest of the thread, which suggests that cleaning with water was not a daily occurrence but mostly likely just a seasonal exercise at the beginning of a season, do you agree that the tide-mark would most likely be caused by rain water drying out, rather than any use of cleaning water?

If you do agree, that might help HideHo to be more precise about when the Tennis Balls Photo was taken.

I think most of the rain that week fell during the day on Wednesday. So the tide-mark would occur sometime after the rain had dried out.

Thursday morning would then be a strong candidate. Especially as we know it was cloudy all that morning.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Joannep43 on 25.03.16 16:05

@ HiDeHo There is a video on YouTube "how to dry a wet court in 8 minutes".The video shows a quick and easy way to dry a tennis court.This kind of tool could have been used and could account for the water marks in a line.I know it doesn't answer the question whether the court was cleaned or wet due to rain.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 25.03.16 16:08

@HiDeHo wrote:
-----------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know what the 'cleaning' consisted of and whether someone with the expertise could guess on the watermark.  I don't believe anyone can say 100% if it was water but that brings me to another issue.

I have been holding back for a few years on asking this question regarding the water because I didn't have the weather reports from PdL.  Only from Faro and in the past few days I have the reports which indicate no precipitation on Monday night or Tuesday and have also studied some videos that we taken in Alvor during that week which would have had the same weather...

These are the videos which show Monday and Tuesday along with the Faro reports for those times.

The video weather appears to match that as you can see in the Faro reports.

It is a Windsurfing competition from Monday (registrations) to Saturday (Finals) and according to the schedule the competition starts at around 11am or after.

The second video shows clear before the competition with clouds after. As per the weather report)

Formular windsurfing Grand Prix Portimao Portugal Day 1  APRIL 30th 2007




MONDAY WEATHER FARO









Formular windsurfing Grand Prix Portimao Portugal Day 2 MAY 1st 2007




TUESDAY MAY 1st WEATHER






It was only after checking all of the above along with the PdL Weather forecast that I felt confident enough to make this post with the knowledge there was likely no rainfall Monday or Tuesday morning before the mini tennis.

What I find interesting, particularly after 'confirming' as best that I can that there was no rain before Tuesday morning I was curious why the ONLY reference to rain was Kate claiming rain on Tuesday   Is it possible that if she released this photo SPECIFICALLY to place Maddie alive on Tuesday but maybe the photo was taken after a court cleaning on eg Monday and remembering the court was wet when she took the photo preempted the explanation of it being wet by saying it rained on Tuesday....

That may be a little too far contrived, for me anyway..but I mention anyway :)


Bumping this post to add the videos from Wednesday and Thursday...  Keep in mind that the competition times were apparently after 11am which would account for no rain showing on the Wednesday video....






WEDNESDAY May 2nd 2007





Faro Weather report for Wednesday May 2nd





THURSDAY May 3rd 2007







FARO Weather Thursday May 3rd 2007


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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by JohnyT on 25.03.16 20:52

IMHO the more 'suntanned'  look is due to the upwards reflection of the surface that she's standing on.
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by joyce1938 on 26.03.16 4:34

I have stayed in Tavira many times and it was often that the Faro weather was not exactly the same as Tavira.  I live on south coast and it can be wet 1 mile away and dry elsewhere.  So trying to work that wet or dry courts maybe not like  as easy as that.  I still wonder if it was early evening but just before her bedtime.  I wish i could find it, but no good at it at my age of life. Picking up balls after Daddy's game sort of sticks in my mind.  joyce1938
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 26.03.16 13:06

@Joyce1938:   I made a similar comment some while back.  Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain.  I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be.  It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles.  I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact.  The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes  picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there!  I digress..

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.16 14:26

@Verdi wrote:@Joyce1938:   I made a similar comment some while back.  Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain.  I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be.  It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles.  I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact.  The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes  picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there!  I digress..

winkwink




Verdi...

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the second paragraph about me harbouring the thought and the relation to Crimewatch.

Could you explain for me please?  Maybe it was too much Easter dinner and too many chocolate bunnies yesterday has addled my brain :)
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.16 14:46

Something caught my eye on my driveway.... Added comparisons...





WHAT WE KNOW:

1) Kate claims this pic was taken by her during Maddie's mini tennis

2) According to the tennis booking sheets and Georgina the tennis coach it was Tuesday 10am

3) According to the booking sheets Court cleaning was 'booked' for two hours AFTER mini tennis (on at least one of the two courts)

4) As far as we have been able to establish there was no precipitation in the days/hours prior to the mini tennis  (I should be able to confirm this at some point)

5)  The mark on the pic is similar to wet asphalt as it dries 


We are attempting to establish whether Kate took the photo at mini tennis
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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 26.03.16 15:33

@HiDeHo wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@Joyce1938:   I made a similar comment some while back.  Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain.  I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be.  It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles.  I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact.  The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes  picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there!  I digress..

winkwink




Verdi...

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the second paragraph about me harbouring the thought and the relation to Crimewatch.

Could you explain for me please?  Maybe it was too much Easter dinner and too many chocolate bunnies yesterday has addled my brain :)
HiDeHo,

Yes, definitely a chronic case of over egged - my post was in answer to @joyce1938!   smilie

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.16 15:41

@Verdi wrote:
@HiDeHo wrote:
@Verdi wrote:@Joyce1938:   I made a similar comment some while back.  Indeed yesterday the forecast for this region was sunny, passing cloud with zero chance of rain.  I was out and about when one of the pesky little passing clouds decided to relieve itself just where I happened to be.  It was a heavy downpour that lasted only a couple of minutes but enough to soak the land for a couple of square miles.  I doubt if that little incident will be recorded in the annals for future reference - generally I believe records apply to a specific region, not a dot on the landscape.

As regards the tennis ball collection, I don't know how long you have harboured the thought but certainly your notion figures in the Crimewatch 2013 Madeleine McCann special, which would appear to be a gross misrepresentation of fact.  The actress portraying Madeleine can be seen at 18:50 minutes  picking up balls on the court while her parents were playing..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y

Considering the re-enactment presented by Crimewatch, in conjunction with Operation Grange, was intended to jog memories of people that were in the vicinity, you have to ask why they put forward false information relative to a very serious crime.

Answers in a brown envelope adressed to Gerry and Kate, Rothley - it'll get there!  I digress..

winkwink




Verdi...

I'm not sure what you mean regarding the second paragraph about me harbouring the thought and the relation to Crimewatch.

Could you explain for me please?  Maybe it was too much Easter dinner and too many chocolate bunnies yesterday has addled my brain :)
HiDeHo,

Yes, definitely a chronic case of over egged - my post was in answer to @joyce1938!   smilie

I was actually asking about the Crimewatch reference, but never mind...  Poor Bunnies...Only one remains  smilie

Happy Easter



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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Doug D on 26.03.16 16:11

Wishful thinking or ‘tideline’ staining on the old courts at Rothley Tennis Club?
 
 
 

http://www.marpave.co.uk/perch/resources/20140312_141735-w780h585.jpg
 
http://www.marpave.co.uk/perch/resources/20140325_102439-1-w780h585.jpg


Unless someone comes up with a similar photo of the OC tennis courts, taken that week showing the scuff mark,  with or without the ‘tideline’ I don’t think we will ever work it out (or even if it was actually taken at the OC).

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.16 16:13

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Tony Bennett on 26.03.16 16:23

@HiDeHo wrote:
If the court was wet then how could it have become wet before mini tennis OR was the photo taken at another time?

There is another thought that has occurred to me after thinking long and hard about this photo.

There is an awful lot of green tennis court - and not much Madeleine.

Compare, for example, this photo, taken late Saturday afternoon (28th):



We are told that Kate wanted to 'seize the moment' and capture this image of Madeleine holding the tennis balls.

Having done all that, would you really take just one shot, and one with so much background in it?

Moreover, if the story is correct, Madeleine would have been with her group at that time (Tuesday morning according to Kate).

She could not ask Madeleine to stay there while she was rushing back for her camera.

No - she would have to have called over the Lobster group leader, Catriona Baker, and said: 'Hey! Cat! I want to take a picture of Maddie with the tennis balls! Would you mind waiting while I get my camera - I won't be long!"

"OK, Kate, no problem!".

So. Off away from the tennis court, Down the lane. Up to the house. Unlock the door. Find the camera. Lock the door. Hurry down the lane. Back to the tennis courts. Cat and the other children all waiting patiently for Kate and her camera to show up.

Madeleine would long since have put the balls down.

Now she has to pick them up - one, two, three.

"Ready Madeleine?"

Now...at this point...why do you stand so far away from your child? Why not a close-up?

She 'looked so gorgeous'.

Yet we have 90% tennis court - and only about 10% Madeleine.

No sign of anyone else around - no instructor, no other children.

If the story is correct, was this pic taken at the end of the session? What is she doing there standing on her own?    

It's surely yet one more thing about this photo and the unlikely tale surrounding it that makes it very hard to accept that this picture is all that it purports to be.

Was it even taken that week?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Doug D on 26.03.16 17:11

A question for a ‘camera’ person:
 
With the Mc’s camera (either or both of them), what sort of zoomed photo could you expect to take looking over the fence from the play area?
 
Is this photo a likely result from a ‘quick shot’ type camera?
 
   
Another one for Parapono if she is still over there?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by JRP on 26.03.16 17:28

@Doug D wrote:A question for a ‘camera’ person:
 
With the Mc’s camera (either or both of them), what sort of zoomed photo could you expect to take looking over the fence from the play area?
 
Is this photo a likely result from a ‘quick shot’ type camera?
 
   
Another one for Parapono if she is still over there?
I know they had a Canon, but I'm not sure what the other one was. Was it an Olympus?
The Canon A630 was quite a nice consumer camera. It could be point and shoot but it also had some advanced features, so it would have suited a hobby photographer too.
The photo looks to me as it was taken at the shorter end of the zoom, where it would have been when first turned on. The zoom on the Canon was 35mm to 140mm. That's a 4 times magnification so the composition in my opinion could have excluded the background.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by JRP on 26.03.16 17:36

I also wondered if this pic was taken during this holiday. Had they been here before? Or stayed somewhere nearby, another resort close by perhaps?

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by canada12 on 26.03.16 18:20

A few thoughts. Yes, highly unlikely to me that Kate would have had time to run back to the apartment and grab her camera and then run back to the tennis court to take Madeleine's picture as shown to us. "Hold that pose, Madeleine! I'll be back in two ticks! It's just like being in our back garden!"

She could of course have got the idea to take Madeleine's picture while the kids were all running around, then she ran back to get her camera, and then waited for Madeleine, or called her over, or something, then took her picture then.

Thoughts about the Rothley tennis courts. It's interesting that the courts look exactly the same as the courts in the OC. Highly interesting.

Here's the web page for the company that was contracted to redo the Rothley court, thanks to the person above who linked to two of the pix. Lots of pix of the tennis court in question.
http://www.marpave.co.uk/album.php?s=rothley-tennis-court-extension

I'm going to think about this one for a bit. It opens up all kinds of interesting possibilities and suggestions. Including the fact that the photo (or parts of it) could have been on the McCanns' camera prior to their PDL trip.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 26.03.16 20:04

@HiDeHo wrote:  I was actually asking about the Crimewatch reference, but never mind...

joyce1938 has a number of times in the past made mention of a notion she has about a story being spread that Madeleine had collected balls on the court while her father was playing and again in the post up page that I replied to - hence my comment about the Crimewatch 2013 re-enactment.  I have a vague recollection also of having seen this story,  haven't a clue when or where but the Crimewatch production endorses joyce1938's thoughts on the subject - Madeleine (played by an actress) collecting balls on a court while adults are playing tennis.

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by Verdi on 26.03.16 20:38

@JRP wrote:I also wondered if this pic was taken during this holiday. Had they been here before? Or stayed somewhere nearby, another resort close by perhaps?
Before you get too carried away, this is just a random image of Madeleine used by Kate McCann to tug the heart strings of the public purse.  I don't know if you've had the doubtful pleasure of reading her autobiography titled 'madeleine', if so, you will realize that she kneads (in more ways than one) the reality to create the work of fiction - if you get my drift.  In short 'The Lie of the Truth' or as Goncalo Amaral more astutely states 'The Truth of the Lie'.

This particular image could be a composite depiction of a Madeleine super-imposed on any old tennis court image.  For all I know it could be Flushing Meadows - that might at least explain the staining !!!

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Re: When was the 'Tennis Balls' pic taken?

Post by HiDeHo on 26.03.16 21:21

May I ask...

Is there anyone who believes the photo was likely taken at mini tennis on Tuesday morning shortly after 10am?

If so, how can the mark be explained?
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