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Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

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The dogs

Post by Shhh on 28.05.14 20:38

Reading the files and confusing myself.  Think there is so much said on forums that things sometimes get confusing.

Regards Eddie - 
6 - This dog signalled the lower outside area next to the driver's door of the Renault - 59-DA-27 - that was rented by the McCanns (cf. page 2187 and/or annex 88);

7 - Finally it "marked" the key/card of that vehicle when it was hidden under a fire prevention sand box (cf. page 2187 and/or annex 88);




So Eddie didn't mark in the boot of the car?  So madeleines body couldn't have been in the boot?  But then fluids/blood found by keela in the boot, if they came from a body wouldn't Eddie alert? 


Or is something missing?  Got this from the "legal summary" on mccannpjfiles

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 28.05.14 20:50

Mccannfiles States Eddie did alert in the boot???

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Gillyspot on 28.05.14 21:18

From Grime's statement to PJ.

"03.53 ? the dog ?marked? a zone on the right inferior side of the inside of the luggage compartment of the vehicle;"

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DOGS_INSPECTION.htm

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 28.05.14 21:35

I'm not calling the dogs into question only how accurate the info we have is.

Gerry might think confusion is good but it makes my brian hurt

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Gillyspot on 28.05.14 22:03

@Shhh wrote:I'm not calling the dogs into question only how accurate the info we have is.

Gerry might think confusion is good but it makes my brian hurt
The link I gave you is from the official police files. There is a video of Eddie alerting to the McCanns' car on the internet too.

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 28.05.14 22:18

Sorry, I'm having probs viewing that (got about 9 devices running off a crap hub) I did see one of Eddie & the car earlier it cuts off at the end when he's in the boot so don't show a bark.

I'm wondering if this "legal summary" overlooked/chose not to mention Eddie alerting to the boot in it's summing up.  It's a summary of condensed facts from the files but it seems such an important thing to leave out.  I need to finish reading the summary, got to this bit & now it's got my goat.  

I'm getting a new hub delivered by sky soon  big grin

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by PeterMac on 28.05.14 22:23

@Shhh wrote:Sorry, . ..I did see one of Eddie & the car earlier it cuts off at the end when he's in the boot so don't show a bark.
I'm wondering if this "legal summary" overlooked/chose not to mention Eddie alerting to the boot in it's summing up.  It's a summary of condensed facts from the files but it seems such an important thing to leave out.  I need to finish reading the summary, got to this bit & now it's got my goat.

I think you do, and then welcome back.

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by kimHager on 29.05.14 14:48

I also would love to see them bring in more sniffer dogs (RIP Eddie) to see them also alert to these places. To call into question one set is one thing but other dogs noses cant all be wrong... Would love to see Gerry explain how inaccurate they would also be

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 29.05.14 18:17

Read it, think I get it.  I'm not calling anything into account the dogs findings, that bit threw me.  


Out of interest what's the best site to read the files in their entirety on? Have read them in the past, starting at the beginning again

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by TozerDerry on 29.05.14 18:26

This case is fascinating- so much information and so little agreement.

I googled McCann, Scenic and Dogs and came up with this which seems to be a handler report:

Dog inspection report of cars searched in subterranean 
garage
Canine Inspection Report 
Date 6 and 7 August 2007 
Place Underground parking area of 1st of May Square, Portimao.
Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy and Keela, the English Springer 
[Spaniels]
THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this 
being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
[list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter; 
Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]
Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour, 
examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having 
been verified the following result:
15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry 
and Kate McCann.
Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert 
examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that 
began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having 
been verified the following result:
03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage 
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the 
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the 
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car 
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car 
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire 
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire 
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:






A I read that Eddy marked the outside of the car but was never put in the car.

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Guest on 29.05.14 18:32

@TozerDerry wrote:This case is fascinating- so much information and so little agreement.

I googled McCann, Scenic and Dogs and came up with this which seems to be a handler report:

Dog inspection report of cars searched in subterranean 
garage
Canine Inspection Report 
Date 6 and 7 August 2007 
Place Underground parking area of 1st of May Square, Portimao.
Participants: three PJ officers; two UK police experts; Eddy and Keela, the English Springer 
[Spaniels]
THE ENTIRE WORK WAS RECORDED IN IMAGE AND SOUND [on video]
On 6 August 2007, at 15h17, a canine inspection was performed in the following motor cars, this 
being done on level -4 of the above-mentioned underground car park:
[list of cars: Opel Corsa; Fiat Punto; Peugeot 205; Renault Scenic; Skodia Fabia; VW Transporter; 
Nissan Patrol; VW Passat; Audi A4; Renault Kangoo.]
Thus, at the hour indicated the work began, with the dog Eddy, that detects cadaver odour, 
examining the whole level of the underground car park where the vehicles were parked, it having 
been verified the following result:
15h27 - the dog 'marked' car number 4 - Renault Scenic - rental vehicle currently used by Gerry 
and Kate McCann.
Thus, the Renault Scenic vehicle was moved to parking level -3 and subjected to an expert 
examination by officers from the Police Science Laboratory and another canine inspection that 
began at 03h49 on 7 August 2007 by the dog Keela, that detects traces of human blood, it having 
been verified the following result:
03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage 
compartment of the car;
04h11 - the dog 'marked' the 'tidy' compartment [map/glove pocket] on the side of the driver's door,
which was found to contain the car key, the plastic electronic card type, with a key-ring of the 
Budget rental company.
In order to confirm that the dog had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the 
map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car 
and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car 
park.
At 04h14, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire 
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
At 04h50, a new inspection was performed by Eddy on the parking level -4 where the above car
key was concealed in an area far distant from the vehicle.
At 04h51, it was verified that the dog 'marked' the area of a sandbox [bucket of sand] of the Fire 
System where the car key had been concealed beneath the sand.
... the present document has been duly signed:






A I read that Eddy marked the outside of the car but was never put in the car.

TD could you please put links up when you post information.
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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by TozerDerry on 29.05.14 18:38


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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 29.05.14 18:47

So he didn't, yet there is a video of him doing it so I'm told on Facebook.  Guess you can see why I'm confused.

No alert in the boot = no body in the boot which I've thought would be the case, too risky.  Fluids yes, from the fridge (back to that again)GA pretty sure the fluids came from a refrigerated body.

But surely the fluids coming from a dead body will smell of death?

Can anyone see the confusion?


Sometimes you see Eddie alerted in the boot as fact.  Is it fact?

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by sallypelt on 29.05.14 19:01

@Shhh wrote:So he didn't, yet there is a video of him doing it so I'm told on Facebook.  Guess you can see why I'm confused.

No alert in the boot = no body in the boot which I've thought would be the case, too risky.  Fluids yes, from the fridge (back to that again)GA pretty sure the fluids came from a refrigerated body.

But surely the fluids coming from a dead body will smell of death?

Can anyone see the confusion?


Sometimes you see Eddie alerted in the boot as fact.  Is it fact?

Isn't the "baggage compartment" also the boot?

"03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car";

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by bobbin on 29.05.14 19:43

@sallypelt wrote:
@Shhh wrote:So he didn't, yet there is a video of him doing it so I'm told on Facebook.  Guess you can see why I'm confused.

No alert in the boot = no body in the boot which I've thought would be the case, too risky.  Fluids yes, from the fridge (back to that again)GA pretty sure the fluids came from a refrigerated body.

But surely the fluids coming from a dead body will smell of death?

Can anyone see the confusion?


Sometimes you see Eddie alerted in the boot as fact.  Is it fact?

Isn't the "baggage compartment" also the boot?

"03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car";

that's so right. oh the problems with multi languages...  clapping 

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 29.05.14 20:09

@sallypelt wrote:
Isn't the "baggage compartment" also the boot?

"03h53 - the dog 'marked' an area of the lower right-hand side of the interior part of the baggage
compartment of the car";


Yes, yes! So sorry, of course it is.   ooops   I've got into my head the passenger door, parcel thing on the inside of the door". Which you generally can't get anything in.  (I never use the boot & always put my shopping in the passenger footwell.



Right, that's that sorted now.

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 29.05.14 20:13

Hang on, that baggage compartment bit is in respect of keela if you read it back, or that's how it reads to me.

ARRRGH this is doing my head in lol.

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Shhh on 29.05.14 20:23

From mccannpjfiles.co.uk

Ten vehicles were screened in an underground multi storey car park at 
Portimao. The vehicles, of which I did not know the owner details, were 
parked on an empty floor with 20-30 feet between each. The vehicle 
placement video recording and management of the process was conducted 
by the PJ. The EVRD was then tasked to search the area. When passing a 
vehicle I now know to be hired and in the possession of the McCann family, 
the dog's behaviour changed substantially. This then produced an alert 
indication at the lower part of the drivers door where the dog was biting and 
barking. I recognise this behaviour as the dog indicating scent emitting from 
the inside of the vehicle through the seal around the door. 

This vehicle was then subjected to a full physical examination by the PJ and 
no human remains were found. The CSI dog was then tasked to screen the 
vehicle. An alert indication was forthcoming from the rear driver's side of the 
boot area. Forensic samples were taken by the PJ and forwarded to a 
forensic laboratory in the U.K. 

It is my view that it is possible that the EVRD is alerting to 'cadaver scent' 
contaminant or human blood scent. No evidential or intelligence reliability can 
be made from this alert unless it can be confirmed with corroborating 
evidence. The remainder of the vehicles were screened by the EVRD without 
any interest being shown. Therefore the CSI dog was not further deployed. 

MINISTERIO PUBLICO DE PORTIMAO 

SUMMARY 

The tasking for this operation was as per my normal Standard Operating 
Procedures. The dogs are deployed as search assets to secure evidence and 
locate human remains or Human blood. 






Seems to confirm what I think I read

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SKY NEWS Sunday 8 June

Post by PeterMac on 08.06.14 15:59

Sky have just done a filler of a golden Labrador detecting bladder cancer from urine samples.

Notoriously Unrelaible, eh Gerry, Janet ? Your own profession use them.
Care to re-think ?

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Dogs to be used on Saddleworth Moor

Post by PeterMac on 09.06.14 8:15

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/moors-murders-shock-new-hunt-3663622#.U5U7MA1Ma1A.twitter

They are going to use DOGS to look for the remaining victims of the Moors Murderers ! ! !

Sorry Gerry and Janet.

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Guest on 09.06.14 8:20

It's the first time I've heard of any undiscovered victims other than Keith Bennett.
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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by HelenMeg on 27.06.14 16:05

Worth a watch - the dog handler and the report on Portuguese news showing and explaining clearly the dog alerts...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENvJULt1OoY&index=66&list=PLDCF22535653D5158


starts off with the portuguese news reporter but moves on shortly - you get talked through the dog alerting in the apartment.  I know we've seen some of it before
but this is particularly clear and as reported on the portuguese news.

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Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by jeanmonroe on 04.07.15 12:54

http://news.sky.com/story/1512836/human-remains-found-inside-apartment-wall

Raven Joy Campbell, 31, who disappeared in 2009

Human remains have been found inside the walls of an apartment building in California after a tip off to police.

Coroner's office officials went to the property in Lomita and CADAVER DOGS gave a "positive alert" for a body.

So those absolutely UNRELIABLE cadaver dogs 'positively ALERT' to a SIX years old, 'scent'

And surprise, surprise, or not, 'there's a body'!

Take it as read, IF one of the McCann's, two remaining, children went 'missing', they WOULD be the FIRST to 'scream' at LE...........'GET THE 'effing' DOGS IN'!





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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by Lands_end on 04.07.15 13:13

Dogs cannot lie. The breed used in this case were springer spaniels, not just because of their enhanced sense of smell but also they are easy to train to react by rote. I've often wondered this in relation to statistics: The chances of both dogs getting it wrong at the same time are incomprehensible.
lol4

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Re: Those incredibly 'unreliable' DOGS............again!

Post by jeanmonroe on 04.07.15 13:30

In the 'terrorist exercise' in London, earlier this week, the MET had TWO Springer spaniels, on 'duty'!

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