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CADAVER DOGS

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CADAVER DOGS

Post by PeterMac on 09.07.14 7:53

Since Gerry has once again put the dogs in the forefront of the discussion, let us once again consider their work.
On the Reliability of Cadaver dogs

Dogs trained to detect the smell of human cadaverine are now routinely used throughout the world. We examine some of the leading cases.

From the outset it is important to note that a dog cannot give “evidence“ in a criminal trial. In most jurisdictions evidence has to be subject to examination and cross examination by learned counsel, and this is clearly impossible. On many occasions the alert by the dog will result in the discovery of remains and it will be that which becomes the primary evidence. The fact that the dog indicated where to look becomes a side issue, of no particular legal importance.

Here we look at some occasions when the dog alerts, but no significant physical evidence can be found at the time. The best that can be achieved in these circumstances is that the handler of the animal gives evidence of the dog’s reactions, often with video confirmation, and can then be cross examined on his interpretation of the animal’s behaviour.

(I shall refer to the cases by the name of the deceased or missing person, rather than by the Trial reference, because of the ways in which these differ across jurisdictions)

1 The case with a legal significance may not yet have been fully appreciated, is that of Jeanette Zapata. in Dane Country, USA. In 1976 she served her husband Eugene Zapata with divorce papers. She went missing shortly afterwards. 29 years later dogs alerted in the basement of the family home, and in several other places where the family had lived over the intervening time. At trial his lawyer persuaded the judge that the dog’s finding could not be admitted, since the places in which they had alerted indicated that he had carried the body round to everywhere he had lived, and it was suggested that this was preposterous. The jury failed to reach a verdict. Before his retrial however, he confessed, and crucially confirmed that he had in fact transported the body round before disposing of it. The dogs had been absolutely accurate. No body has been found.

2 The recent case of Bianca Jones, a 2 year old girl murdered by her father D’Andre Lane in Detroit USA, with the added details of an alleged abduction, was an occasion when Mr Martin Grime, a British retired police officer, was working for the FBI. His evidence of the alerts by his dog was admitted to show that Bianca was dead whilst in the back of the car, and not taken by armed men as was being alleged. Lane was convicted, though no body has ever been found.

3 The trial of Adrian Prout, in 2010, for the murder of Kate Prout, his wife, in the UK, was notable again for a verdict of guilty, despite no body having been found. Dogs had indicted the presence of a body in the house, but nothing had been found. Some time after his conviction Prout confessed, and indicted the location of the body, confirming that the dogs had been absolutely accurate in their findings.


4 In the murder of Susan Pilley in Edinburgh, by her colleague David Gilroy, in 2010, the court heard that the dogs had alerted in the office basement garage and in two areas of the boot of Gilroy’s car, even though this had been cleaned recently with fluid or air freshener. The defence failed to convince the jury that the absence of physical evidence entitled his client to acquittal. No body has been found. He was convicted.

5 Cori Baker from Oklahoma was murdered by her sister’s boyfriend Marquis Bulloch, in 2007. He changed his story several times whilst being investigated, and the dogs, partly funded by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, were brought into search a large area after a skull had been found. They alerted in several places. No other physical evidence was discovered. He was convicted

6 The case of Guadeloupe Montano from Kane County, USA, is now complete. It is alleged that she was murdered by her husband Aurelio Montano in 1990. It may be the first time that the dog’s alerts have been used as evidence in that State. They indicate that the body lay in one position and was then moved to another. The trial took place in October 2013. No body has been found. He was convicted

7 The case of Amir Jennings, allegedly killed by her mother Zinah Jennings in 2011, involves a mother who reported her son missing. Dogs have searched the house and the car, and the trial for lying to the police about what happened is pending. No body has been found. Zinah Jennings was convicted on a charge of unlawful conduct toward a child,

8 The trial of Albert Fine, the partner of Catherine Hoholski, from Lorain USA, is also pending. In this case the body was found within 60 seconds of the dog being deployed, and it was then used to identify other locations relevant to the prosecution case. He faces the death penalty if convicted.

9 The alleged abduction of Isabel Mercedes Celis has been called into question by the findings of two dogs, one a cadaver dog, in the family home. The findings were said to be “significant”, the house is being treated as a crime scene and the matter is still under investigation. No body has been found.

10 The disappearance of 6 year old Etan Patz in New York 33 years ago, has already shown the almost unbelievable feats of which cadaver dogs are capable. In this case pads of absorbent material were left for a time on the concrete floor of the basement and then presented to the dogs for testing. As a result the concrete floor was then ripped up. The handler Englebert said. "We as human beings never lose our scent. If [a body] had been there for a while, that scent would still be there," she said, indicating that even if investigators do not find remains in the basement, it is possible human remains may have once been there before being moved.” The investigation has also used ground penetrating radar. The trial of Pedro Hernandez, who has admitted kidnapping and murder, is pending.

11 The parents of Lisa Irwin, from Kansas City, also allege that she must have been abducted in the middle of the night. The mother told Police she did not search, “because she was afraid of what she might find”. Disturbed earth was found behind the house, and the dog alerted in the parent’s bedroom. As a result a full search warrant was granted, and the police say they want to talk to the parents Jeremy Irwin and Deborah Bradley, one to one.

12 The cold case of 14 year old Melanie Melanson, from Massachusetts USA, who disappeared 20 years ago, has been given fresh impetus through the findings of a cadaver dog which alerted in an area targeted following a tip off to Police.

13 Another mother, Shakara Dickens, of Memphis USA, reported in 2010 that she had given up her daughter Lauryn Dickens for adoption, but the various stories turned out to be false. A dog identified cadaver odour in the house and in the boot of the car, and despite defence arguments, she was found guilty of Murder. No body has been found.

14 The infamous case of Caylee Anthony, whose mother Casey Anthony was accused of murdering her in Orlando USA, in 2011, was also notable in that the evidence of the cadaver dog handler was admitted, even though the body was found later at a different location. The dog alerted in the boot of the car, and it was alleged that the mother had then dumped the body. The evidence was highly detailed, with full description of the system of ‘final trained alert’ by the dog showing an exact position, distinguished from a more general interest. In the event Anthony was not found guilty of the murder, but was convicted of several lesser offences. There are moves to have the case reopened at Federal level.

15 In the UK, the case of Kirsi Gifford-Hull, in Winchester in 2005, is of interest since although the body was discovered by a man walking a dog, and the offender Mike Gifford-Hull had made a public appeal at a press conference for his wife to return, cadaver dogs had already alerted some weeks earlier in the house and in his car during the initial search for a “missing person”. After the trial he told officers that when he saw the dogs alerting in the car he had contemplated making a full admission. He was convicted. After the trial Judge Guy Boney QC ”. . .added that the police inquiry was so superior it could be matched with that of any other police force in the world.”


Many organisations exist to provide the services of cadaver dogs. Many are staffed by retired specialist Police officers. Their services are not cheap. It was widely reported, not entirely tongue in cheek, that Eddie, the cadaver dog operated by Mr Martin Grime, earned more than the Chief Constable. The Cadaver Dog Team of Global Rescue Services, and Dog Detectives operate in this sphere. Independent trainers include Search Dogs UK (www.searchdogsuk.co.uk ) All operate within the UK

Almost every state of the US has its own team operating in this way, and the FBI run training programmes specifically targeted at Cadaver and Blood detecting dogs.
The whole area of research is subject to rigourous academic study, as so much in the legal world hinges on the success or otherwise of the dogs, and the trust placed by courts on their reported findings.

Academic Papers

16 Cadaver dogs– a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares.
Abstract
Cadaver dogs are known as valuable forensic tools in crime scene investigations. Scientific research attempting to verify their value is largely lacking, specifically for scents associated with the early postmortem interval. The aim of our investigation was the comparative evaluation of the reliability, accuracy, and specificity of three cadaver dogs belonging to the Hamburg State Police in the detection of scents during the early postmortem interval.
MATERIAL AND METHODS:
Carpet squares were used as an odor transporting media after they had been contaminated with the scent of two recently deceased bodies (PMI<3h). The contamination occurred for 2 min as well as 10 min without any direct contact between the carpet and the corpse. Comparative searches by the dogs were performed over a time period of 65 days (10 min contamination) and 35 days (2 min contamination).
RESULTS:
The results of this study indicate that the well-trained cadaver dog is an outstanding tool for crime scene investigation displaying excellent sensitivity (75-100), specificity (91-100), and having a positive predictive value (90-100), negative predictive value (90-100) as well as accuracy (92-100).


17 Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States
Abstract
The detection of human remains that have been deliberately buried to escape detection is a problem for law enforcement. Sometimes the cadaver dog and handler teams are successful, while other times law enforcement and cadaver dog teams are frustrated in their search. Five field trials tested the ability of four cadaver dog and handler teams to detect buried human remains. Human and animal remains were buried in various forested areas during the summer months near Tuscaloosa, Alabama. The remains ranged in decomposition from fresh to skeletonized. Cadaver dogs detected with varying success: buried human remains at different stages of decomposition, buried human remains at different depths, and buried decomposed human and animal remains. The results from these trials showed that some cadaver dogs were able to locate skeletonized remains buried at a significant depth. Fresh and skeletonized remains were found equally by the cadaver dogs along with some caveats. Dog handlers affected the reliability of the cadaver dog results. Observations and videotape of the cadaver dogs during field trials showed that they were reliable in finding buried human remains.

18 The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results.
Abstract
Specially trained air scent detection canines (Canis familiaris) are commonly used by law enforcement to detect narcotics, explosives or contraband, and by fire investigators to detect the presence of accelerants. Dogs are also used by police, military, and civilian groups to locate lost or missing persons, as well as victims of natural or mass disasters. A further subspecialty is "cadaver" searching, or the use of canines to locate buried or concealed human remains. Recent forensic investigations in central Alberta demonstrated that the use of cadaver dogs could be expanded to include locating partial, scattered human remains dispersed by repeated animal scavenging. Eight dog-and-handler teams participated in a two-month training program using human and animal remains in various stages of decay as scent sources. Ten blind field tests were then conducted which simulated actual search conditions. Recovery rates ranged between 57% and 100%, indicating that properly trained cadaver dogs can make significant contributions in the location and recovery of scattered human remains.

19 The suggestion that Cadaver dogs are “incredibly unreliable” is thus refuted.



References and links

These are only some of the many available on the net. Searching on the name of the deceased will usually give many pages of similar articles.

1 http://eddieandkeela.blogspot.com.es/2008/02/zapata-admits-killing-wife-gets-5-years.html
http://www.caninesearchsolutions.org/wisconsin_v._zapata.pdf

2 http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/detroit/jury-reaches-verdict-in-dandre-lane-murder-tria#ixzz29I3h1A3T

3 http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Cadaver-dog-sniffed-death-Prout-home/story-11860269-detail/story.html

4 http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/news/home-news/david-gilroy-guilty-of-suzanne-pilley-murder.1331810187

5 http://www.tulsapeople.com/Tulsa-People/October-2010/Cold-case/index.php?cparticle=4&siarticle=3

6 http://beaconnews.suntimes.com/news/15641401-418/cadaver-dog-evidence-allowed-in-body-less-murder-case.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/m/montano_maria.html

7 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082947/Cadaver-dogs-search-missing-toddler-police-execute-warrants-jailed-mothers-car-home.html
http://www.ibtimes.com/zinah-jennings-sentenced-10-years-disappearance-son-amir-jennings-photo-782017

8 http://www.examiner.com/article/isabel-celis-fbi-dog-alerts-missing-girls-home

9 http://childabuseconsulting.blogspot.com.es/2012/05/those-darn-cadaver-dogs.html

10 http://www.christianpost.com/news/etan-patz-case-cadaver-dogs-able-to-pick-up-scent-in-basement-73568/#vZyIRl6x8dEmovY7.99

11 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2051903/Lisa-Irwin-missing-Cadaver-police-dog-smells-scent-dead-body-parents-bedroom.html

12 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2181390/Breakthrough-cold-case-Cadaver-dogs-zero-place-hunt-girl-vanished-23-years-ago.html

13 http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/mar/23/memphis-mother-found-guilty-presumed-dea/

14 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2000636/Casey-Anthony-trial-continues-Cadaver-dog-handler-tells-court-overwhelmed-smell-death-trunk-Anthonys-car.html

15 http://www.standard.co.uk/news/wealthy-businessman-strangled-wife-after-she-uncovered-three-affairs-7086770.html

http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/1011044.print/

Academic links and general references

http://www.caninesearchsolutions.org/wisconsin_v._zapata.pdf

http://www.dogster.com/lifestyle/cadaver-dogs

16 "Cadaver dogs– a study on detection of contaminated carpet squares." Oesterhelweg L, Kröber S, Rottmann K, Willhöft J, Braun C, Thies N, Püschel K, Silkenath J, Gehl A.
Institute of Legal Medicine, University Medical Center Hamburg, Germany. 
Forensic Sci Int. 2008 Jan 15;174(1):35-9

17 Cadaver dog and handler team capabilities in the recovery of buried human remains in the southeastern United States.
Lasseter AE, Jacobi KP, Farley R, Hensel L.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa, AL 35487-0210, USA.
J Forensic Sci. 2003 May;48(3):617-21.

18 The use of cadaver dogs in locating scattered, scavenged human remains: preliminary field test results.
Komar D.
Department of Anthropology, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada.
J Forensic Sci. 1999 Mar;44(2):405-8.

“Incredibly Unreliable”

19 a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LJo9fGXQMI
Interview with Sandra Felgueiras,
recorded 3 Nov. 2009, broadcast 5 Nov. 2009

5:39 Gerry McCann “I can tell you that we’ve also looked at evidence about cadaver dogs and they’re incredibly unreliable”.
SF “Unreliable ?
GM: “Cadaver dogs, Yes”

19.b http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/DAYS_851_to_1050.htm
Gerry’s blog Day 988 15/1/2010
“The use of dogs had proved to be problematic and unreliable in previous cases . . . To suggest or use the dogs’ reactions as evidence is simply wrong and abusive”
Kate McCann


19.c from “madeleine” by Kate McCann, May 2011, Bantam Press,

p. 218/9
When he arrived, Ricardo explained this ‘evidence’ a little further. His tone was sombre as he told us about the two springer spaniels that had been brought out to Portugal by the British police to assist in the search. Keela, who could alert her handler to the tiniest trace of blood, had done so in apartment 5A. Eddie, a victim-recovery or ‘cadaver’ dog, trained to detect human remains, had indicated that somebody had died there.

p.219
Did they really believe that a dog could smell the ‘odour of death’ three months later from a body that had been removed so swiftly? They were adding two and two and coming up with ten. [1]

p. 253
As we now know, the chemicals believed to create the ‘odour of death’, putrescence and cadaverine, last no longer than thirty days. There were no decaying body parts for the dog to find. It was simply wrong. [2]

p. 267
By this time Gerry was deep into his next task: researching the validity of responses produced by blood and cadaver dogs. Along the way he spoke to several experts, and in the coming weeks we would learn a lot about the subject. This is what one US lawyer had to say about the objectivity and success rate of this procedure:
  The most critical question relating to the use of the dog alerts as evidence is how likely is the dog’s alert to be correct. In this regard, the only testing of these handler and dog teams recorded an abysmal performance. Here ‘the basis’ for the possible past presence of human remains is that there is a 20 or 40 per cent chance that a dog’s ‘alert’ was correct. In other words, with respect to residual odour, the dog-handler teams performed significantly worse than if the handlers had simply flipped a coin to speculate as to the presence of residual odour at each location.
State of Wisconsin v. Zapata, 2006 CF 1996 – defendant supplemental memorandum [3]

Author’s observations
1 A Cadaver dog can indeed smell the “odour of death” years, and even decades and centuries later. This statement is simply factually inaccurate, and misleading. (v.s)

2 The chemicals do last longer than thirty days. This statement is simply factually inaccurate, and misleading. (v.s.)

3 This was material submited by the defendant at First `Instance. It is not precedent, or case law. This case its notable for the change of plea before the second trial and the admission by the accused that the dog had been absolutely accurate in all its alerts, showing the various places the body had been stored over a period of three decades. ( Wisconsin v. Zapata, v.supra)

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Swannie on 09.07.14 8:40

Absolutely fascinating stuff; thanks very much for providing all this information. And there was me thinking the bewk was factual.................

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by SchrodingersBody on 09.07.14 8:40

And that quite simply is the reason why despite their protestation, no matter how loud, I know they are involved in her disappearance.

thanks ...I'll email that to some doubters I know !

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Rasputin on 09.07.14 8:52

Brilliant piece Peter , educational factual and damning ...a cut-out and keep for any doubters .

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Post by littlepixie on 09.07.14 9:12

They train sniffer dogs very near to me. They send them all over the world. Only this week it was all over twitter how our Police force are using these dogs to sniff out illegal tobacco and how successful they are.
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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by PeterMac on 09.07.14 9:20

Would you travel on a plane where an explosive dog had alerted, - notoriously unreliable, probably just a stick of Blackpool rock ?
Would you tell your GP not to bother about the bladder cancer alert, - notoriously unreliable, probably just a curry I ate?
Would you tell your GP not to bother about the Melanoma alert, - notoriously unreliable, probably just a mole ?
Would you tell the Fire service not to bother about the alert to the pile of rubble which was once your house after the explosion -
notoriously unreliable, my wife had probably gone shopping with the children. Just get on and bulldoze it all flat. ?

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


And a special one for the Mccanns Media-watch team search engine
DOGS
CURTAINS
SHUTTERS
DOORS
WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY
LIES
LAST PHOTO FORGERY

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Dont Make Me Laff on 09.07.14 9:26

That's a very good way of puting it petermac, I certainly would not travel if a dog alerted to explosives.
I wonder what GM would say if asked the same question? "oh I don't believe in all that old tosh, these dogs are incredibly unreliable, here gimme me passport I'm climbing aboard" Yerh right
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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Tomslass on 09.07.14 9:30

Gerry just does not understand dogs. Dogs interpret their  world  mostly  by smell.
This article  gives a  good explanation of the anatomy of  a dog's  nose and why  they are  many thousands  of times  more sensitive than a human  nose. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/dogs-sense-of-smell.html

 He  will never  be able to  explain away two dogs, highly trained to  sniff out  two  distinct scents, alerting in that apartment, however  much  he  would  like to.

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Post by PMR on 09.07.14 9:33

I have seen ( none cadaver ) sniffer dogs in action on many occasions I have no reason to doubt their accuracy AT ALL .No I wouldn't travel on any vehicle they had alerted on


In fact that gives me an idea , next time the Mc's are due to fly any where tell them the plane has had a positive explosives alert by a trained dog and see if they still fly on it

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Rasputin on 09.07.14 9:43

I used to run my Spaniel in scurries at gundog events.. they would use the freshest cut spruce to attempt to delay the dog finding the dummy..watching a working dog detect its quarry at speed....halting and turning so rapidly it appears its been yanked back by an invisible lead ...only a fool would doubt the nose of a dog .

A good read ...Sgt Rex Sniffer Dog .

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by VeraWannabe on 09.07.14 9:47

This should be made a sticky.

Also, other convictions have been made in the main on dogs alerts - why not in this case??

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Guest on 09.07.14 9:58

@littlepixie wrote:They train sniffer dogs very near to me. They send them all over the world. Only this week it was all over twitter how our Police force are using these dogs to sniff out illegal tobacco and how successful they are.

Dogs can even sniff out fake dvds: http://www.wired.com/2008/07/dvd-sniffing-do/

Actually, if Gerry is telling the truth (  spit coffee lol - I know but stick with me), Keela is even cleverer. She somehow managed to indicate all the places that blood would be found without actually smelling it! What are the chances eh?

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Justformaddie on 09.07.14 10:25

If OG have ignored Eddie and Keela then they should ALL BE SACKED, because they have NOT done their job correctly AT ALL IMO 

THIS IS ABOUT THE LIFE OF AN INNOCENT 3YR OLD CHILD NOT A TV SHOW!

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Hopespringseternal on 09.07.14 10:47

I used to work with sniffer dogs ( not as a handler and not cadaver ones) and I would trust their indications every time. The public, in the main, just haven't a clue about their abilities. There doesn't have to be a kilo of coke/wodge of explosive/million in cash stashed in a suitcase or on the person; the dog can detect mere traces even LONG after the event. Training is always ongoing to keep their skills in peak condition and often involves a rag which has been kept near the drug/explosive and absorbs merely a hint of the scent. Blind testing (of dog AND handler) is also a frequent event with the handler being unaware if a dummy has been placed or not. If the dog indicates and nothing is found, you'll more than likely find that the person involved has been involved with/sitting in the company of users before hand or has been involved before. I planted a training aid ( scented rag) beneath soil in a plant pot and the dog found it. 6 months later despite the plant pot having been moved around inside and out, when the dog did a sweep, it indicated on the 'live' item and the area from 6 months before.

I love watching a dog team work and often have to be dragged away in airports !
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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by guest. on 09.07.14 11:03

Petermac

Pg 219
Did they really believe that a dog could smell the ‘odour of death’ three months later from a body that had been removed so swiftly? They were adding two and two and coming up with ten. [1]

Everytime I read the above it for me it reinforces:-

a) The cover up is not for the McCanns benefit, in fact the forces that be would probably be pleased if the smoking gun was found so they could say "we've done our best to help you but nothing we can do about this"

b) IMO GA is correct in thinking the incident occurred 5.30pm onwards on the 03/05/07 and it was a swiftly carried out plan

c) By the over egging of the saying you're adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 5 it is vitally important to dismiss the dogs findings so they are spot on 

d) By dismissing the dogs outright and not even saying that when they were first told that about the dogs findings that they had wondered that if by some bizarre quirk of fate they had hired the same car as the intruders or someone with access to the car keys was responsible, then go onto say however we later found out the dogs are unreliable etc.  But it never crossed their minds to do anything other than dismiss their findings so they once again give themselves away as knowing what happened.

I am intrigued as to why yesterday GM found it imperative to dismiss Keela's findings specifically

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 09.07.14 11:37

Sally, perhaps there was no blood when Madeleine was removed from the apartment - perhaps her nose bleed or whatever else was claimed early on in conjunction with Gerrys statement "If she had had an accident in the apartment, why would that be our fault?" - may be very telling mental leakage from GMc?

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by FH on 09.07.14 11:46

I'm sure someone could work out the statistical probability of "unreliable"  dogs to alert in 1) exactly the same place and 2)  ONLY to things the McCanns had been in contact with and 3) ONLY the same car whose boot was left open night after night to get rid of a smell and 4)  NOT  give a false positive to anything else associated with anyone else.

Surely unreliable dogs would alert randomly? If say they give a false positive 10% of the time, then 10% of the things they identified should not belong to the McCanns. If they give a false positive 20% of the time then 20% of things identified should not belong to the McC's etc.

The more unreliable something is, the more outliers there should be in the data set.

These dogs seem  incredibly specific in their  "unreliability". The falsely identified cadaver/blood/body fluids only in the McCann's apartment, on items belonging to the  McCann's and in the McCann's hire car.

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 09.07.14 11:49

@FH wrote:I'm sure someone could work out the statistical probability of "unreliable"  dogs to alert in 1) exactly the same place and 2)  ONLY to things the McCanns had been in contact with and 3) ONLY the same car whose boot was left open night after night to get rid of a smell and 4)  NOT  give a false positive to anything else associated with anyone else.

Surely unreliable dogs would alert randomly? If say they give a false positive 10% of the time, then 10% of the things they identified should not belong to the McCanns. If they give a false positive 20% of the time then 20% of things identified should not belong to the McC's etc.

The more unreliable something is, the more outliers there should be in the data set.

These dogs seem  incredibly specific in their  "unreliability". The falsely identified cadaver/blood/body fluids only in the McCann's apartment, on items belonging to the  McCann's and in the McCann's hire car.

Brilliantly put.

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by gbwales on 09.07.14 11:51

Poe wrote:
@littlepixie wrote:They train sniffer dogs very near to me. They send them all over the world. Only this week it was all over twitter how our Police force are using these dogs to sniff out illegal tobacco and how successful they are.

Dogs can even sniff out fake dvds: http://www.wired.com/2008/07/dvd-sniffing-do/

Actually, if Gerry is telling the truth (  spit coffee lol - I know but stick with me), Keela is even cleverer. She somehow managed to indicate all the places that blood would be found without actually smelling it! What are the chances eh?


I sometimes wonder what a statistical analysis by someone far brighter than me at maths would look like at evaluating the various probabilities involved in Eddie & Keela's various alerts to a significant number of things related only to the McCann's and nothing not related to the McCanns - over the whole quantity of locations and items. I bet the odds are truly staggering, dare I say - pretty much impossible...?

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by guest. on 09.07.14 11:56

@Smokeandmirrors wrote:Sally, perhaps there was no blood when Madeleine was removed from the apartment - perhaps her nose bleed or whatever else was claimed early on in conjunction with Gerrys statement "If she had had an accident in the apartment, why would that be our fault?" - may be very telling mental leakage from GMc?
Maybe and likely, it was just so bizarre that he wouldn't drop it 

A head injury from a few days earlier that became life threatening on the 03/05 is a possibility IMO

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by PeterMac on 09.07.14 14:21

And it important to note that in many, probably hundreds of cases the dogs have alerted, and then the body has been found where they said it was (Tia for example)
Those cases are NOT included, since direct evidence of the finding of the corpse is then given by a human.
In most of the cases on the monograph no body was found, but the culprit went to prison anyway.
On the say so of the dog.

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Putting this here for completeness

Post by PeterMac on 09.07.14 14:29

Mark Simm
UK Justice Forum
July 8, 2014

In scenes reminiscent of an episode from Perry Mason, Gerry McCann yesterday attempted to persuade a libel trial that he was an expert in blood detection dogs.

The intervention by Judge Maria Emília de Melo e Castro came following the reading of a personal statement to the court by Gerry McCann wherein he attempted to interject the subject of the dog alerts. Thus began one of the most bizarre episodes of the trial to date and a wonderment to watch.

Gerry McCann claimed that the dogs hadn't found any blood and despite the judge telling him to be quiet he carried on regardless, desperately trying to put across his point of view. As McCann continued, the Judge was having none of it however, and with a wry smile waved a backhand at the witness and told him to be quiet. She thereafter interrupted his every utterance, before asking him if he was a specialist on the dogs and finally reminding him that he was not there to state opinion, rather he was there at her invitation to answer her questions in her court...

Good Judge !

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by MrsC on 09.07.14 14:32

^ ^ ^ ^ Oh to have been a fly on the wall!  high5 
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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by Smokeandmirrors on 09.07.14 14:54

@PeterMac wrote:
Mark Simm
UK Justice Forum
July 8, 2014

In scenes reminiscent of an episode from Perry Mason, Gerry McCann yesterday attempted to persuade a libel trial that he was an expert in blood detection dogs.  

The intervention by Judge Maria Emília de Melo e Castro came following the reading of a personal statement to the court by Gerry McCann wherein he attempted to interject the subject of the dog alerts. Thus began one of the most bizarre episodes of the trial to date and a wonderment to watch.

Gerry McCann claimed that the dogs hadn't found any blood and despite the judge telling him to be quiet he carried on regardless, desperately trying to put across his point of view. As McCann continued, the Judge was having none of it however, and with a wry smile waved a backhand at the witness and told him to be quiet.  She thereafter interrupted his every utterance, before asking him if he was a specialist on the dogs and finally reminding him that he was not there to state opinion, rather he was there at her invitation to answer her questions in her court...

Good Judge !

That Judge has the measure of Team McCann, and appears singularly unimpressed and fairly uninterested TBH, is it wrong to be sitting here with a wry smile playing across my lips?  titter 

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Re: CADAVER DOGS

Post by MrsC on 09.07.14 14:59

 
@Smokeandmirrors wrote:
is it wrong to be sitting here with a wry smile playing across my lips?  titter 

It would be rude not to!  Wink 
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