Back to basics

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 14:04

Let's try it one more time.

Take a cigarette paper and slip it into the following sequence and show where there is sufficient time for an intruder to
Enter, sedate three children, select one, pick her up, exit and make his escape.
Let us welcome the supporters of the Abduction theory with open arms if they can show how this could be achieved.
Let us ask journalists to ask one of the Tapas group how they think it might have been achieved
Let us ask the ace Investigative journalists where the time slot is

The times are taken from the THREE different versions prepared by the Tapas group.
(The final typed one, done by the entire group takes the best bits of the previous two and changes them to fit the commentary.)

2104 GM leaves Tapas bar
2105 Arrives side gate
2106 Gerry in apartment checks chldren
2106 Uses toilet
2107 Leaves via patio doors
2108 GM closes all doors behind him and goes down stairs into street
2109 - 2116 Talks to JW
2114 JT leaves Tapas
2115 JT passes gate
2116 JT crosses car park
2120 JT crosses car park - On her way back
2121 JT passes gate - On her way back
2125 MO and RJO pass gate
2126 MO and RJO cross car park
2129 MO crosses car park - On his way back
2130 MO enters 5A checks children
2134 MO closes all doors behind him and goes down stairs
2135 MO back in Tapas bar
2140 JT passes gate
2141 JT crosses car park
2144 RJO crosses car park - On his way back
2145 RJO passes gate - On his way back
2146 RJO returns to Tapas
2153 KM leaves Tapas
2154 KM enters apartment
2155 KM realises and searches apartment
2158 KM return to Tapas
2159 KM return to apartment
2200 KM and GM in apartment

Reconstruction anyone ?
Are you surprised they all refused ?

by inspirespirit 08.10.14 14:09

Do we know what time G got back to Tapas Bar?

Did JT go back checking again after only being back at Tapas bar less than 10 mins?

by Dont Make Me Laff 08.10.14 14:12

That's a whole hour PeterMac - of just members of the McTeam on the street

by inspirespirit 08.10.14 14:14

I've never actually seen it written like that before. Really interesting.

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 14:41

inspirespirit wrote:Do we know what time G got back to Tapas Bar?

Did JT go back checking again after only being back at Tapas bar less than 10 mins?

not according to the first two attempts, stickerbook 1 and stickerbook 2
but on the amended versions, (Three pages of A4)
2120 JY returns to the restaurant
2140 JT returns to 5D to take over care of E*** from RJO
2145 RJO returns to table to eat main course leaving JT in 5D

(Please don't try to make it make sense !)
Not one of them with the exception of JT seeing GM and JW, speaks of having met any of the others in the street, so we assume each trip out and back was completed before the next one.

And as the next poster points out, there is also JW and, as we now know, Tannerman wandering around seeing what is going on, and they report nothing.

by bobbin 08.10.14 14:50

inspirespirit wrote:Do we know what time G got back to Tapas Bar?

Did JT go back checking again after only being back at Tapas bar less than 10 mins?

9.21 p.m. to 9.41 p.m. Jane passes gate back to restaurant, then leaves to let ROB go down for his dinner, having eaten hers in that time, child being ill apparently. IIRC RoB did an amazing bed changing baby bathing etc. etc. job in this short time. Perhaps someone would correct me.
What concerns me is how RoB was eating his dinner when most of the witness statements claim that the fuss all kicked off around 9.30 to 9.40 at which time the table had cleared leaving only Dianne Webster.
Was he at table or what ?

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 14:52

I am fascinated to know what Grange, Winters and Goose, Mitchell, the Tapas group, Carter-Ruck, Twitter trolls, Facebook Stalkers, and the McCanns themselves make of it.
(We know what Dr Amaral and his successors, and the Public prosecutors, and The ACC Leicestershire, and John Stalker, and the rest thought ! )

Originals to be found at
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
scroll down two pages for Stickerbook 1 and Stickerbook 2
and about half way down the whole screen for the typed version

ATTACHED

On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.

Portimão, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
or
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

NOTE
that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Or in Plain English - a Conspiracy ?

by bobbin 08.10.14 14:55

PeterMac wrote:Let's try it one more time.

Take a cigarette paper and slip it into the following sequence and show where there is sufficient time for an intruder to
Enter, sedate three children, select one, pick her up, exit and make his escape.
Let us welcome the supporters of the Abduction theory with open arms if they can show how this could be achieved.
Let us ask journalists to ask one of the Tapas group how they think it might have been achieved
Let us ask the ace Investigative journalists where the time slot is

The times are taken from the THREE different versions prepared by the Tapas group.
(The final typed one, done by the entire group takes the best bits of the previous two and changes them to fit the commentary.)

2104 GM leaves Tapas bar
2105 Arrives side gate
2106 Gerry in apartment checks chldren
2106 Uses toilet
2107 Leaves via patio doors
2108 GM closes all doors behind him and goes down stairs into street
2109 - 2116 Talks to JW
2114 JT leaves Tapas
2115 JT passes gate
2116 JT crosses car park
2120 JT crosses car park - On her way back
2121 JT passes gate - On her way back
2125 MO and RJO pass gate
2126 MO and RJO cross car park
2129 MO crosses car park - On his way back
2130 MO enters 5A checks children
2134 MO closes all doors behind him and goes down stairs
2135 MO back in Tapas bar
2140 JT passes gate
2141 JT crosses car park
2144 RJO crosses car park - On his way back
2145 RJO passes gate - On his way back
2146 RJO returns to Tapas
2153 KM leaves Tapas
2154 KM enters apartment
2155 KM realises and searches apartment
2158 KM return to Tapas
2159 KM return to apartment
2200 KM and GM in apartment

Reconstruction anyone ?
Are you surprised they all refused ?

Brilliant piece of work by the way PeteMac. Thank you, almost makes me laugh, if I weren't still so very sad inside about Brenda Leyland who is now the most compelling reason to carry on carrying on, to get the truth into the light.

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 14:56

bobbin wrote:
What concerns me is how RoB was eating his dinner when most of the witness statements claim that the fuss all kicked off around 9.30 to 9.40 at which time the table had cleared leaving only Dianne Webster.
Was he at table or what ?

Ah, but that is the independent witnesses.
Independent witnesses are "Incredibly unreliable"
The only thing that matters is the statements of the Tapas group, even if they contradict each other they are "incredibly reliable".
Which is why everything is in neat 5 minute blocks.

(By the way which of Kate's statements that the curtains were wide open, or tight closed is "incredibly unreliable" ? )

by bobbin 08.10.14 15:01

PeterMac wrote:
bobbin wrote:
What concerns me is how RoB was eating his dinner when most of the witness statements claim that the fuss all kicked off around 9.30 to 9.40 at which time the table had cleared leaving only Dianne Webster.
Was he at table or what ?

Ah, but that is the independent witnesses.
Independent witnesses are "Incredibly unreliable"
The only thing that matters is the statements of the Tapas group, even if they contradict each other they are "incredibly reliable".
Which is why everything is in neat 5 minute blocks.

(By the way which of Kate's statements that the curtains were wide open, or tight closed is "incredibly unreliable" ? )

Yes, silly me. The independent witnesses almost make it possible that some time could have been freed up for a real 'quickie' abduction between 9.30 and 9.40 but the comings and goings of MO, ROB and JT eclipse that.
Oh dear, we'll just have to accept that there was no abduction since there was no window of opportunity to do one.

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 15:33

by **tigger** 08.10.14 15:41

PeterMac wrote:I am fascinated to know what Grange, Winters and Goose, Mitchell, the Tapas group, Carter-Ruck, Twitter trolls, Facebook Stalkers, and the McCanns themselves make of it.
(We know what Dr Amaral and his successors, and the Public prosecutors, and The ACC Leicestershire, and John Stalker, and the rest thought ! )

Originals to be found at
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
scroll down two pages for Stickerbook 1 and Stickerbook 2
and about half way down the whole screen for the typed version

ATTACHED

On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.

Portimão, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
or
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

NOTE
that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Or in Plain English - a Conspiracy ?

Wasn't it the case that they were not allowed to take the typed sheets with them into the interviewing room?

Which would explain why Rachel stuck to the written note: all shutters down, specifically including those of the patio doors.
So that would be another 30 seconds or so, much longer if you're trying to do it silently, say two minutes and thst's before you've sedated the children, who will need it by now as the raising of the shutter has woken them up... spit coffee

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 16:49

tigger wrote:
Wasn't it the case that they were not allowed to take the typed sheets with them into the interviewing room ?
Which would explain why Rachel stuck to the written note: all shutters down, specifically including those of the patio doors. . .

Rachel really stuffed up he whole thing by sticking to the script she had been given. She argued with GM about which side of the road he was, and burst into tears when he bullied her on the mockumentary reconstruction as she realised he had just called a liar of a fantasist of a programme to be sent out to the entire world, - and still on YouTube for anyone who relishes seeing a woman cry ; she specifically said the Patio door shutters were down, (which she had no need to do ), she does not say she hears everyone screaming and slamming doors even though her apartment is within a few metres of 5A, and sound travels i empty concrete blocks, she did not tell KM about the sighting, though she then stuffed that up by telling the group which included GM

She is a terrible liability - for the McCanns.

by viaveritasvita 08.10.14 16:52

PeterMac wrote:
tigger wrote:
Wasn't it the case that they were not allowed to take the typed sheets with them into the interviewing room ?
Which would explain why Rachel stuck to the written note: all shutters down, specifically including those of the patio doors. . .

Rachel really stuffed up he whole thing by sticking to the script she had been given. She argued with GM about which side of the road he was, and burst into tears when he bullied her on the mockumentary reconstruction as she realised he had just called a liar of a fantasist of a programme to be sent out to the entire world, - and still on YouTube for anyone who relishes seeing a woman cry ; she specifically said the Patio door shutters were down, (which she had no need to do ), she does not say she hears everyone screaming and slamming doors even though her apartment is within a few metres of 5A, and sound travels i empty concrete blocks, she did not tell KM about the sighting, though she then stuffed that up by telling the group which included GM

She is a terrible liability - for the McCanns.

Don,t you mean Jane ?

by Naz_Nomad 08.10.14 20:47

Are there any computer geniuses (genii?) who can put these timings into a computer animation?

by Guest 08.10.14 21:03

by Dont Make Me Laff 08.10.14 21:17

well done PMac & Admin
If it weren't so tragic it'd be funay

by inspirespirit 08.10.14 21:36

Spent ages trying to work it all out. I get it now. It can't be worked out 'cos it didn't happen. duh, I can be a bit blonde at times. lol.

by XTC 08.10.14 22:27

PeterMac wrote:
bobbin wrote:
What concerns me is how RoB was eating his dinner when most of the witness statements claim that the fuss all kicked off around 9.30 to 9.40 at which time the table had cleared leaving only Dianne Webster.
Was he at table or what ?

Ah, but that is the independent witnesses.
Independent witnesses are "Incredibly unreliable"
The only thing that matters is the statements of the Tapas group, even if they contradict each other they are "incredibly reliable".
Which is why everything is in neat 5 minute blocks.

(By the way which of Kate's statements that the curtains were wide open, or tight closed is "incredibly unreliable" ? )

Yes it appears to be Benny Hillish alright.

The sticking point for all this though is MO's 9.30pm check at 5a , wherein if JT was right about the bundleman being the potentail abductor as she thought at the time - the shutters and windows should have been open on MO's 9.25- 9.30 check. Despite not seeing Madeleine in her bed he should have seen the shutters up and the sliding window open. Perhaps even a draught may have slammed the door shut?

If you ditch JT's sighting ( as DI Redwood has ) you can get round that particular contradiction and start your clock post 9.30. The problem with that is JT's return visit ( or first visit ? ) back to her own apartment this was at 9.40pm when she replaced ROB. Possibly JT should have seen the shutter up then? Or maybe not.

The only way theoretically to avoid seeing the shutter up is to go to your own apartments via your own (left open )sliding door.
It saves the walking round to the wooden door at the car park side of the apartments.

It would be very interesting if DI Redwood revealed what the proclaimed Tannerman saw himself?

He should have seen a woman in a cardigan and two men chatting on the street further down the hill. If he has questioned his revelation man
he should know the answer to that question.

I wonder whether the questionwas asked? If so I'd love to know the answer.

Opinion though.

by **PeterMac** 08.10.14 22:58

viaveritasvita wrote:
Don't you mean Jane ?

Probably. In this case certainly probably.
But it hardly matters.
So many of the Tapas group have told so many untruths, that changing a name is almost inconsequential.
The facts remain the same.
The Fact that the tapas group cannot bring themselves to state the facts remains the same.
The fact that when they are asked to do so, they change from articulate educated professionals into gibbering idiots, who lose the power of speech in their mother tongue

Lunchtime on 3/5/7 was overcast, cold and windy. (See Last Photo ! ) The "Last Photo" was obviously taken on Sunday 29th, the first day of the holiday.
Evening on Thursday 3rd May 2007 was clear, cold, and calm (see Tapas group statements, photos, weather reports.)
There were no gusts of wind to "whoosh" curtains and slam doors. The weather reports and eye witnesses prove this
A gust of wind through a 45cm x 100cm window sufficient to "whoosh" a full length curtain trapped behind a bed and a chair . . .
Would have been noticed by the Tapas group sitting in front on 40 square metres of plastic sheeting

Or have it got that wrong ?

by aiyoyo 08.10.14 23:13

Naz_Nomad wrote:Are there any computer geniuses (genii?) who can put these timings into a computer animation?

The Metropolitan Police have HOLMES II software to do that ?

by Okeydokey 09.10.14 1:13

Peter Mac -

Isn't the McCann claim that an abductor could have been inside the apartment before GMcC arrived and hid while GMcC was doing his visit?

Not saying I think that's credible but it makes that timeframe irrelevant to the "entry" time.

Clearly the McCanns have the problem as to what time the exit occurred. [Unless they stick to the literally incredible JT sighting.]

by logical 09.10.14 2:10

Excellent posts PeterMac big grin

Im still laughing over the Benny Hill Theme high5

by **tigger** 09.10.14 7:56

aiyoyo wrote:
Naz_Nomad wrote:Are there any computer geniuses (genii?) who can put these timings into a computer animation?

The Metropolitan Police have HOLMES II software to do that ?

Now you're giving me visions of 47 investigating officers rolling on the floor, laughing like mad.

@okeydokey

Gerry proposed an abductor behind the door when he'd stood looking at the sleeping children, having his proud father moment(over egging the pudding as usual) but, not being very observant, failed to note that said abductor would have been about 4" wide seen sideways.
(It is demonstrated in the Portuguese documentary of the truth of the lie - so that might be why Kate said the documentary did even more harm than the book)

Such a severly anorexic abductor might have trouble lifting anything much - so that would pretty well exclude those heavy shutters on the patio door, a child of four...

As to over-egging - here's a list of things that were dropped from the narrative:

Maddie: 'I've had the best day ever, Mummy'. She had also learned a little dance which she was going to show Mummy tomorrow.. A child not yet four with full temporal awareness, yeah right.

GM:'She was lying in the recovery position' - is that so? Perhaps not a good idea to broadcast that seeing as you were the last person to see her, allegedly. No wonder that was dropped.
This brilliant remark was commented on by the T7 as 'only a doctor would have said that'. You don't say, not the likes of us then.
splat

by palm tree 09.10.14 9:53

This abductor hiding is ludicrous. No room behind the door, gm would've heard him opening and closing the wardrobe door, in the parents room, no because gm would've seen him in line of sight leaving the children's room coming at him to get to the parents room, bathroom, no because gm used the bathroom himself, living room and kitchen, no because GM would've seen him in those incidents too.
IMO

by nomendelta 09.10.14 10:06

The whole thing is ludicrous if we add to this OG's identification of Tannerman. Because this man would have been walking around with a small girl in pink pj's at almost exactly the same time as a big bad abductor would have been walking around with Maddie. It is inescapable that Tannerman MUST have seen something IF Maddie was abducted as the McCann's claim. He was walking past the apartment at exactly the time that they claim Maddie was taken - even if he only saw a jemmied shutter...

by Jamming 09.10.14 10:33

This Window of Opportunity.... it's gonna have to be "jimmied" open for it to work

by HelenMeg 09.10.14 10:49

Jamming wrote:This Window of Opportunity.... it's gonna have to be "jimmied" open for it to work

Excellent observation - post of the day.... big grin

by .Guest.. 09.10.14 10:53

HelenMeg wrote:
Jamming wrote:This Window of Opportunity.... it's gonna have to be "jimmied" open for it to work
Excellent observation - post of the day....

Or "jammied"

by **PeterMac** 09.10.14 17:39

We have the two Stickerbook versions. Let us try to put them into a sort of GANNT chart format.

8:45. pm
Matt returns 9.00-9.05 - listened at all - all shutters down
Jerry 9.10-9.15 in the room + all well ? did he check
9.20/5 - Ella Jane checked 5D sees stranger & child
9.30 - Russ. Ella Matt check all 3
9.35 - Matt check see twins
9.50 - Russ returns
9.55 - Kate realised Madeleine
10pm - Alarm raised

Timeline 2 (as per sticker book above)

8.45pm. all assembled at poolside for food
9.00pm. Matt Oldfield listens at all 3 windows 5A, B, D ALL shutters down
9:15pm Gerry McCann looks at room A ? Door open to bedroom
9:20pm Jane Tanner checks 5D - [sees stranger walking carrying a child]
9.30 - 9.55pm Russell O'Brien in 5D. Poorly daughter
10:00pm. Alarm raised after Kate

Gerald

In each case a single point in time is given, but we must remember that
Tapas to side gate of 5A is One Minute
Side gate 5A to front door 5A is One Minute
Side Gate up stairs opening gate, baby gate, patio doors, putting on light etc 30 Seconds
Side gate to 5D one and half Minutes
And each of these must then be added both to the 'out' and 'back'
AND the time actually unlocking front doors, entering, seeing children, touching them, checking bedclothes, checking temperature under covers, giving them a little kiss, (I am assuming most of them are normal parents here !)
So the yellow box is the time given, the brown boxes are the bits either side, during much of which time
the person involved will have been outside, crossing the car park, walking along the road, and passing 5A

Stickerbook Version 1
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

Stickerbook version 2
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

Stickerbook1 does leave a 9 minute gap, but this is neatly plugged in Stickerbook2, when it is observed that ROB remains in the apartment. He is in 5D, only two thin walls away from 5A, and it is a cold calm and quiet night. It is noticeable that Stickerbook2 does not mention MO's alleged check of 5A, and that has been discussed at length elsewhere.

But then we come to the typed Sequence of events, agreed to by the entire group, and served on the PJ by the Liaison officer.
It runs to three A4 pages but the essence is shown below. (As usual I would welcome any observations and corrections.)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]" />

Suddenly we see a Window having been created, since was are now told that ROB came back to the restaurant at 2145, rather than at 2150, or 2155 according to Stickerbook1 & 2.

IF it had been known at the time that Tannerman was irrelevant and was just going to impede the search for three or four years, THEN one might see why this Window had suddenly been created, but it wasn't, and there was therefore no reason to do it.

Questions
Which of the three versions of the Truth are the McCanns and / or Grange relying on ?
Which of these versions are the ardent Pro-McCann supporters relying on, and why that one ?
Why that one, and what is wrong with the other ones ?