Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[Guest]

 If it's true that SY have been planning months of activity in Portugal, I doubt they would release results of forensics until then, they don't have to. In fact I think it's more likely they hold on to any results until the case is over one way or another.  They definitely wouldn't want to give anyone implicated a heads up by releasing results.
    I am hopeful there was something significant as the dogs led to one particular area on Wednesday, otherwise Gerry is right and those dogs are useless.

Really? Do you have a link for this, Chippy? Was it at the house or the wasteland with the barn? And did they alert?

Can't believe I haven't seen this!

[fossey]

 If it's true that SY have been planning months of activity in Portugal, I doubt they would release results of forensics until then, they don't have to. In fact I think it's more likely they hold on to any results until the case is over one way or another.  They definitely wouldn't want to give anyone implicated a heads up by releasing results.
    I am hopeful there was something significant as the dogs led to one particular area on Wednesday, otherwise Gerry is right and those dogs are useless.

Really? Do you have a link for this, Chippy? Was it at the house or the wasteland with the barn? And did they alert?

Can't believe I haven't seen this!

Yes, didn't know that either.

I was under the assumption the dogs were brought in to have 'sniff' at a specific area but they didn't actually lead their handlers to a particular area within that.

Stand to be corrected though.

[fossey]

Too long to copy and paste but the below link is worth a read.

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[Themis]

Who ever is running the current activity SY or PJ the Portuguese law of judicial secrecy will still apply, this means that once a criminal investigation is under way, police cannot reveal anything about that investigation, including any details about potential suspects. Not surprising not much is coming out of PDL but it does not mean they have not made progress.

[jozi]

Well,  how much more convenient can you get? SY spend just over a week with a fantasy dig then come out with a statement which could not have been better fir the McCanns if they'd written it themselves. All this done at exactly the right time for the libel trial final statements etc. GM will stand up and say SY have confirmed there is no evidence that Maddie is dead, and he will be correct. What a farce!

Very Convenient eh !!!

Andy and his Merry Band of Men will go down in history as the Stoopidest Police Force in the World, everyone knows it and Portugal is saying it out loud and clear !!!

What a farce is about right !

Will this kill the Mets reputation completely !

[ChippyM]

 If it's true that SY have been planning months of activity in Portugal, I doubt they would release results of forensics until then, they don't have to. In fact I think it's more likely they hold on to any results until the case is over one way or another.  They definitely wouldn't want to give anyone implicated a heads up by releasing results.
    I am hopeful there was something significant as the dogs led to one particular area on Wednesday, otherwise Gerry is right and those dogs are useless.

Really? Do you have a link for this, Chippy? Was it at the house or the wasteland with the barn? And did they alert?

Can't believe I haven't seen this!

Ok I have gone back through Wednesdays posts as the original ITV page where Martin Geissler was tweeting doesn't seem to be there.

"[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

……
Sniffer dogs are being used on the area near where Madeleine McCann went missing in Portugal seven years ago after a fresh area of land was cordoned off by police in the Algarve resort of Praia da Luz at first light this morning.
The words "policia ingesa [sic] estupidos" appeared on a nearby wall, as well as accusations against the McCanns, alleging they were responsible for her disappearance.
Two dogs from South Wales Police were seen with their handlers inside the cordon and appeared to be concentrating on a small area which has been marked out with police tape inside."


This was someone taking pictures and observing the dig-
"
Alex Littlewood @westnewsprod  ·  Jun 11  (time 11.19)
British police starting to search an area inside the cordon which has already been swept by sniffer dogs."

 "NickE wrote:11:58am, Wed 11 Jun 2014
Police 'unearth an object' at new McCann search site
ITV News Correspondent Martin Geissler reports from Praia da Luz:

martin geissler
@mmgeissler"

I can't insert pictures at the moment but you can see the sniffer dogs within the internal area here
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and then the officers manually searching here, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

    I don't think any of the papers really reported this they just seemed to report that 'nothing was found' aka the SY statement.
 I suppose we can't say for sure the sniffer dogs alerted but it's interesting that they found and object and then packed up!

[ChippyM]

Who ever is running the current activity SY or PJ the Portuguese law of judicial secrecy will still apply, this means that once a criminal investigation is under way, police cannot reveal anything about that investigation, including any details about potential suspects. Not surprising not much is coming out of PDL but it does not mean they have not made progress.

Yes and I think any statements SY have made are worded very carefully!

[fossey]

From Pat Brown today:

FRIDAY, JUNE 13, 2014

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[size]


As the week of digging up Portugal for no discernibly good reason comes came to a close, Kate and Gerry McCann told the press how pleased they were that Scotland Yard had put forth such effort but not found a dead Maddie. As they fly to Portugal on Sunday to testify against Gonçalo Amaral, their argument that he has caused them great emotional pain and damaged the search for Madeleine has not, in the end, been weakened by Scotland Yard's recent activities. In fact, Scotland Yard's Praia da Luz digging and subsequent statements have actually strengthened their case.

The massive money and time spent over the last three years and in the recent spectacle at the Snail go to show how difficult the struggle is to find Madeleine or at least what happened to Madeleine. Even Scotland Yard with their millions of pounds of taxpayer money haven't yet been able to solve the mystery, a mystery that wouldn't exist if the PJ hadn't failed so dismally in their investigation when the case was fresh and if Gonçalo Amaral hadn't wasted early opportunities to follow good leads to locate Maddie instead of being hellbent on convicting the McCanns. If even Scotland Yard can't seem to clean up the mess and bring this case to closure with so much money and manpower, the damage to the case by the Portuguese police's incompetence  and Amaral's refusal to consider any other theory than the McCann's involvement is quite obviously tremendous. And, if Scotland Yard with all their seemingly unlimited budget and detectives has not yet found Maddie, who can blame the McCanns for failing to find her, in spite of all the cash they have collected through their fund?

On top of all this, Scotland Yard has just issued this incredible statement:[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Two things jump out at me: the first thing is that the statement does not include the words "in the vacation flat" which means, at this point, Scotland Yard is not necessarily giving any credibility to the cadaver and blood evidence in the apartment. And this means their analysis does not support Amaral's conclusion, and in fact, indicates that he came to such a conclusion without reliable evidence; hence, he harmed the McCanns by claiming Maddie was dead, that she died in the apartment, and that her body was removed by the McCanns. The second thing that jumped out at me is that this is "just one hypothesis, " which opens the door for Maddie being alive which validates the McCanns' search, which in turn supports the McCanns' assertion that Gonçalo Amaral's claims in his book are libelous and damaging.

Thank you, Scotland Yard, for conducting this charade of an investigation which has worked out perfectly for the McCanns and been timed just right so that they can now enter the courtroom with their heads held high with just the added ammo they need to possibly win this outrageous and ridiculous lawsuit.

God help, Gonçalo.


Criminal Profiler Pat Brown

June 13, 2014 [/size]

[stillsloppingout]

The latest pat Brown post says it all .
People must realise including [ Shakespeare AL or whatever he calls himself ]  because of social media all the information is in the public eye , [ if it was going to be a whitewash people say then it would have gone away been swept under the carpet , wrong ] because it is in the public eye , and the files etc are in clear view , every aspect has to be placed again in to the public domain and then , picked off one by one . DO YOU NOT THINK IT A CO INCEDENCE THIS DIG TOOK PLACE AND THEN THE LIBEL TRIAL IS TO RESUME ? . I have been around a long time ive seen a few , and this is no different .

Ps dont get me started on Celebrities MP'S swinging , because i know more than i can say on a forum.

Ps re AL  Ive seen them come and go , people who come onto forums , and try and create division , [ working for the McCann's ] replying to a post is fine but replying deconstructing it to the inch is , not only disruptive it is unsettling to people who are only trying to express there opinion , and the long nature of the posts also screws the forums pages up .

 Doesn't bother me i used to perform stand up . it was always the clever ones i ripped apart .

[ChippyM]

From Pat Brown today:

FRIDAY, JUNE 13, 2014
..........
Two things jump out at me: the first thing is that the statement does not include the words "in the vacation flat" which means, at this point, Scotland Yard is not necessarily giving any credibility to the cadaver and blood evidence in the apartment. And this means their analysis does not support Amaral's conclusion, and in fact, indicates that he came to such a conclusion without reliable evidence; hence, he harmed the McCanns by claiming Maddie was dead, that she died in the apartment, and that her body was removed by the McCanns. The second thing that jumped out at me is that this is "just one hypothesis, " which opens the door for Maddie being alive which validates the McCanns' search, which in turn supports the McCanns' assertion that Gonçalo Amaral's claims in his book are libelous and damaging.

Thank you, Scotland Yard, for conducting this charade of an investigation which has worked out perfectly for the McCanns and been timed just right so that they can now enter the courtroom with their heads held high with just the added ammo they need to possibly win this outrageous and ridiculous lawsuit.

God help, Gonçalo.


Criminal Profiler Pat Brown

June 13, 2014 

Why would they include the words 'in the flat' if they are still looking for evidence to support that she died there? If they included those words they would more or less be accusing the parents without the necessary proof, which legally they just can't do.
'Just one hypothesis' to me indicates more than one and does not exclude that she was killed by her own parents or any other possible hypothesis.  Sorry but I don't think Pat Brown is being entirely logical here.  Surely SY's statement that they were searching based on the theory M was killed gives Amaral an advantage or at least levels things out.

[Justformaddie]

Well, I thought AR said that maddie may not have left the APARTMENT ALIVE! So..... What evidence do they have if they are ignoring Eddie & Keela? All IMO.

[ChippyM]

Well, I thought AR said that maddie may not have left the APARTMENT ALIVE! So..... What evidence do they have if they are ignoring Eddie & Keela? All IMO.

Yep, to even consider that hypothesis, even as one of many, indicates that SY have at least something to make them consider it.

[Justformaddie]

Well, I thought AR said that maddie may not have left the APARTMENT ALIVE! So..... What evidence do they have if they are ignoring Eddie & Keela? All IMO.

Yep, to even consider that hypothesis, even as one of many, indicates that SY have at least something to make them consider it.

Or they do believe Eddie & Keela! They've also trusted the dogs last week to involve them aswell, otherwise they wouldnt have been there searching! IMO

[ChippyM]

Well, I thought AR said that maddie may not have left the APARTMENT ALIVE! So..... What evidence do they have if they are ignoring Eddie & Keela? All IMO.

Yep, to even consider that hypothesis, even as one of many, indicates that SY have at least something to make them consider it.

Or they do believe Eddie & Keela! They've also trusted the dogs last week to involve them aswell, otherwise they wouldnt have been there searching! IMO

Yes I agree, it makes no sense at all to ignore evidence from one set of dogs but not another.

[Justformaddie]

Well, I thought AR said that maddie may not have left the APARTMENT ALIVE! So..... What evidence do they have if they are ignoring Eddie & Keela? All IMO.

Yep, to even consider that hypothesis, even as one of many, indicates that SY have at least something to make them consider it.

Or they do believe Eddie & Keela! They've also trusted the dogs last week to involve them aswell, otherwise they wouldnt have been there searching! IMO

Yes I agree, it makes no sense at all to ignore evidence from one set of dogs but not another.

Just thinking also, when AR said it might not follow all of our thinking (or similar words) tells me a few of OG think she did not leave the apartment alive. AR would surely know that cadaver takes time to develop, time that they didn't have IMO  

[bobbin]

Well, I thought AR said that maddie may not have left the APARTMENT ALIVE! So..... What evidence do they have if they are ignoring Eddie & Keela? All IMO.

Yep, to even consider that hypothesis, even as one of many, indicates that SY have at least something to make them consider it.

Or they do believe Eddie & Keela! They've also trusted the dogs last week to involve them aswell, otherwise they wouldnt have been there searching! IMO

Yes I agree, it makes no sense at all to ignore evidence from one set of dogs but not another.

The policemen and women would have broken their spines and their spirits if they had been obliged to dig all the rock hard ground within a radius of 15 Km of PdL.

If they used the dogs it would have been because they were certain that if the dogs 'did not' signify then it was not worth the dig.

The police and MET are indirectly stating that the dogs are the 'first line of defense' and of 'paramount' importance.... in short, 'unquestionably reliable'.   

[PeterMac]

Just thinking also, when AR said it might not follow all of our thinking (or similar words) tells me a few of OG think she did not leave the apartment alive. AR would surely know that cadaver takes time to develop, time that they didn't have IMO 

The mangled syntax of what he said was very telling - to me.  
He was desperately trying NOT to say what they, and everyone else in the world, know, and ended up with several pieces of several sentences jumbled together
Hobs will be able to deconstruct it.

He could have said - We still firmly believe that Madeleine is alive and well and living in a Hellish Lair / with a loving childless family / being treated like a Princess. . .
He could have said  - We still firmly believe that she was alive when she was taken out of the apartment, but, sadly, we do not know what has happened to her since then. . .
He could have said - We are still following the Working Hypothesis that X Y Z

He didn't
He very clearly said -  We believe she was not alive when she left the apartment.   But he managed to mangle it up so that the pro-Child-Neglectors can still feel happy.

[joyce1938]

From discussions that have been ongoing over the years I have been looking ,there seemed to be no one that could say for certain how long a body has to lie ,before cadava is smelled . Some say a tiny body would possably not need to be there for as long as an adult ,before it left a trail. Also that a dog might trace it soon after demise,but a human would not ,the dogs noses being so much sense of smell ,. now please do not think I am expert in any of this ,just things I have seen discussed a few times now. joyce1938

[ChippyM]

I'm going off topic here but has any one seen the RTE drama 'Amber' that is being shown by the BBC at the moment? It's about a missing girl and the impact on her parents etc.

   The mother walks round wearing 'missing' T shirts, with her daughter on and runs a campaign from home that is contacting people all over the world and sending out packs. The dad says she is crazy if she thinks someone has taken her and thinks they will be nice to her.

  There was even a creepy birthday party for the absent girl and a Raymond Hewlett looking dodgy bloke. Even my OH who takes no interest in the McCann case looked over my shoulder and said 'who are they supposed to be looking for, Madeliene McCann?' The actress playing the mother looks just like a certain someone! 

  Will be interesting how the series finishes as there are so many paralells.

[Guest]

ChippyM If I can offer you some advice its to not waste your time watching the rest of Amber! It was slated for its ending.

[Themis]

Just thinking also, when AR said it might not follow all of our thinking (or similar words) tells me a few of OG think she did not leave the apartment alive. AR would surely know that cadaver takes time to develop, time that they didn't have IMO 

The mangled syntax of what he said was very telling - to me.  
He was desperately trying NOT to say what they, and everyone else in the world, know, and ended up with several pieces of several sentences jumbled together
Hobs will be able to deconstruct it.

He could have said - We still firmly believe that Madeleine is alive and well and living in a Hellish Lair / with a loving childless family / being treated like a Princess. . .
He could have said  - We still firmly believe that she was alive when she was taken out of the apartment, but, sadly, we do not know what has happened to her since then. . .
He could have said - We are still following the Working Hypothesis that X Y Z

He didn't
He very clearly said -  We believe she was not alive when she left the apartment.   But he managed to mangle it up so that the pro-Child-Neglectors can still feel happy.

The first version of the press conference reported that 'Andy Redwood had said the assumption that Madeleine had been alive when she left the apartment "may not follow with all our thinking" on the case.' This was later amended and clarified 'those quoted words actually came after Redwood had referred to the assumption that Madeleine had been abducted. However, Redwood did say during the same press conference that police were considering the possibility that Madeleine was not alive when taken from the apartment as well as the possibility that she was'. Therefore seems to be questioning was she alive AND was there an abduction.

[ChippyM]

ChippyM If I can offer you some advice its to not waste your time watching the rest of Amber! It was slated for its ending.

Thanks, I've got to episode 2 and it is a bit dull. i should have known it will probably be totally unrealistic in it's ending  

[Guest]

Yeah its a typical rte "cutting edge" production ;-) striking similarities though!
Sorry for OT

[aiyoyo]

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'.... and my friend, Andy wants a 14 inch Seafood Special with extra anchovies.'

No need to cover mouth to avoid lip reader for that surely ?

[aiyoyo]

Well,  how much more convenient can you get? SY spend just over a week with a fantasy dig then come out with a statement which could not have been better fir the McCanns if they'd written it themselves. All this done at exactly the right time for the libel trial final statements etc. GM will stand up and say SY have confirmed there is no evidence that Maddie is dead, and he will be correct. What a farce!

But in that case then couldn't Mr Amaral or his lawyers say that SY must have believed she was dead  or they would not have been digging and using cadaver dogs.  

This excavation operation must have been planned months ahead, and given that tool, resources, and dogs were already there why not stick out until the deadline on Friday, instead of packing up on Wednesday when nothing relevant was found. Surely the two more days could be put to good use instead of wasting them only to have to return to do more of the same thing. Unless they've abandoned the idea of finding the body and not planning to return to this activity.

Or, unless they've found what they were looking for, or they've changed strategy. The early pack-up just does not tally with the no-find.

[worriedmum]

aiyoyo ''
Or, unless they've found what they were looking for, or they've changed strategy. The early pack-up just does not tally with the no-find''


Yes it is puzzling isn't it. They could have used the two days to go over all the apartments with the sniffer dogs. Why didn't they?

[Markus 2]

Think this must have been posted before
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McCanns to tell Portuguese judge of their heartbreak over ex-police chief's smear campaign
A source close to the McCanns said: “Finally it looks like drawing to a close and they are hopeful they can win the case.
“They both want to see an end to it. The poisonous lies said against Kate and Gerry have cause them great distress and have hindered the search for Madeleine.
“It will be the final stage of the trial and there is not expected to be any cross examination.
That is worrying
 If the McCann's win this case I can't see them ever being  held in the future for her disappearance  and if they do does that mean an end to all views pointing to them as the suspects. ?  
Like Sally Bercow and Lord McAlpine


 worriedmum Yes it is puzzling isn't it. They could have used the two days to go over all the apartments with the sniffer dogs. Why didn't they?
 
Still say they got out before there was more smearing of the McCann's on walls etc but people here think that  idea is ludicrous  

[bobbin]

Think this must have been posted before
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McCanns to tell Portuguese judge of their heartbreak over ex-police chief's smear campaign
A source close to the McCanns said: “Finally it looks like drawing to a close and they are hopeful they can win the case.
“They both want to see an end to it. The poisonous lies said against Kate and Gerry have cause them great distress and have hindered the search for Madeleine.
“It will be the final stage of the trial and there is not expected to be any cross examination.
That is worrying
 If the McCann's win this case I can't see them ever being  held in the future for her disappearance  and if they do does that mean an end to all views pointing to them as the suspects. ?  
Like Sally Bercow and Lord McAlpine

True, but then Lord McAlpine upped it and died.....just like that......can't libel the dead.    

[Sceptic]

[quote="worriedmum"]aiyoyo ''
Or, unless they've found what they were looking for, or they've changed strategy. The early pack-up just does not tally with the no-find''


Yes it is puzzling isn't it. They could have used the two days to go over all the apartments with the sniffer dogs. Why didn't they?[/quote]
Following The Operation Grange statement after completion of the digging and dogging, part of which stated - The media's understanding and co-operation following Assistant Commissioner Rowley's pre deployment briefing has also been noted and

[color=000000][size=13]We all know and saw the medias results photos etc using zoom lenses drones etc - IMHO there was a lot done that was not reported / photographs printed - as some of the zoomed in photos werent exactly in line with Rowleys request and the statement above relates to what they didnt report or print photos[/size][/color]

[ShuBob]

Have the McCanns ever specified the smears Amaral has engaged in?