Re: Digging to start next week (continuation of automatically locked thread) - UPDATE... starting today 2/6/14

[jeanmonroe]

Sorry, don't agree.
If they have had intelligence where her final resting place is, then that would be the ONLY location they need to head for.  All the rest of the starting or intermediary hiding location/s is/are not important.  Once you have the body or remains, this is IT.  What more do you need?

My thinking exactly

This EXACT 'dig/search' was supposedly BASED entirely on 'intell' from a 'new' witness.

Just a quickie on the 'pings' of 3 'burglators' that LIVE in PDL.

Has OG traced EVERY 'local call' made in PDL that night  between 10pm and, say,1:00am (3rd/4th May 2007)?

The T9's, (who we KNOW made calls that night) the guy who lives near the supermarket, Mrs Fenn, the 'whiskey couple', the tapas restaurant's manager, the Smiths, the beach shop owner, etc

[Mirage]

I'd like to think they are acting on specific intelligence but going by their wide coverage areas, to include a couple more locations (maybe Lagos Rocha Negra area), it does not appear they were working on tip off; else you'd think the location would be narrowed down to one only.

The terrain at the snail scrubland must be more expansive than can be captured on camera, and sectors of finger tip search would be guided by geo radar or dogs showing interest in the sector or whatever, but they cant possibly be covering every sector square metre by square metre as it is too time consuming.  It they are moving on to the next location it is a good indication they haven't located the "goods" so to speak.

Moving on to different locations would make sense if the police have information that Madeleine was initially hidden on the snail maybe in or close to the children's den then moved to a second and maybe third location. The discovery of the previously unknown den, with or without further forensic evidence, would add weight to the intelligence.

Sorry, don't agree.
If they have had intelligence where her final resting place is, then that would be the ONLY location they need to head for.  All the rest of the starting or intermediary hiding location/s is/are not important.  Once you have the body or remains, this is IT.  What more do you need?

It might be important if there is a 'sequence of findings' to show proof of who did what to whom.
If a body is just found, McCs could say it was a nasty man that took her and dumped her.
But, if soiled clothing is found, with a pink blanket, or other identifying things, then that would implicate K and G.

I'm only guessing, but am trying to remain 'positive' without info, which itself could be positive.

The police said they wanted peace and quiet to get on with their work without speculation.
The silence is very hard for us, since there is a history of corruption and bending figures, and it could as much be a cover up as a genuine AR search to establish just what did happen to Maddie.

The silence from the McCs and their pink spinning top is also worthy of note, given their perpetual 'yabbering' (I've just made this word up) over the years.
Perhaps the silence for the McCs is also terrifying and the idea that the search is moving to other areas may be making them sweat although I understand UK not to be suffering from too much sun today.

(My bold) Thank you Bobbin. It is knife-edge stuff and easy to fall into the slough of despond. But I will try my bestest to retain a little hope and faith in AR and draw a bit of comfort from what you have said. Humanity can surprise at times.
  

[Guest]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

[fossey]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

You wont see the Mccanns in Portugal IF a body is found. No chance.

[stillsloppingout]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

In normal circumstances yes , i sadly know the parent of a child who was murdered . 

If there were mitigating circumstances say Maddie was found holding something that could instantly incriminate the parents , then restraint would be granted .
But IMO there is no body .

[Guest]

How does Tony Stewart know the search effort was wasted?

 asked him, no reply yet. Josh Halliday recommended we read the tweets from TS's balcony in PdL after he left the town yesterday, so JH seems to trust him... I don't understand why the PJ didn't tell SY how new the drain was and if they did why SY would go ahead.

Josh Halliday tweeted he was 'back, sadly, from Praia da Luz'. Sadly? He must think something important was happening, then. He will, of course, be party to the thoughts and knowledge of those he's spoken to there, residents and journos et al.

Clearly feels he's been pulled up like a runner with a twisted ankle half way through a race.

[aiyoyo]

Sorry, don't agree.
If they have had intelligence where her final resting place is, then that would be the ONLY location they need to head for.  All the rest of the starting or intermediary hiding location/s is/are not important.  Once you have the body or remains, this is IT.  What more do you need?

Incriminating evidence.

M's toothbrush, blanket etc.

G's blue sports bag.

They need to join the dots. Just a body may not be suffice.

Exactly!

If the Police know where exactly to recover the body/remains, or were given intelligence leading to the recovery, it would mean they were already on the trail of the perpetrator/s and won't be needing incidental items to prove their case.  If incidental incriminating items were available to further support the case, then GOOD, if not, they have no need to go all way out on expensive mission to find incidental objects/items to support MAIN evidence they already have.

If a body was chanced by a public, the police's search would be in reverse order, needing to determine the identity of the body and who the perp might be.  
But this case in question, assuming the perp/s is/are already a known factor then the search of the body is based on intelligence retracing the steps of the perp/s.  In a nutshell, once the body is recovered, this it IT, no need for other this and that.  Unless the body is not findable or cannot be recovered, then looking for other incriminating evidence and/or items tying to the perp/s will become crucial.

[Guest]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

I've wondered that too. Even given everything, I'd like to think that they would. Whether they are legally rather than morally compelled to or not is a different matter.

I hope you have BIG FONTS turned on BTW.

[DurhamGuy1967]

Did they find pollen or seeds from a certain type of plant in the Scenic?  This would account for the aerial search for a certain tree or plant. Is this plant producing pollen at a certain time of year. ie June?

[riskybuisness]

yes to the airport and onto a flight to Brazil, Ecuador or the like

[jeanmonroe]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

"Well, I've dug my 'half' of the hole, who's gonna dig the other 'half'?"    

[riskybuisness]

How does Tony Stewart know the search effort was wasted?

 asked him, no reply yet. Josh Halliday recommended we read the tweets from TS's balcony in PdL after he left the town yesterday, so JH seems to trust him... I don't understand why the PJ didn't tell SY how new the drain was and if they did why SY would go ahead.

Josh Halliday tweeted he was 'back, sadly, from Praia da Luz'. Sadly? He must think something important was happening, then. He will, of course, be party to the thoughts and knowledge of those he's spoken to there, residents and journos et al.

Clearly feels he's been pulled up like a runner with a twisted ankle half way through a race.

I think Josh halliday means he is now back in the uk - He said he was leaving yesterday

[PeterMac]

Has anyone noticed the video or TV camera in plain sight on the balcony behind them

Did you ?
Honestly ?

see how easy it is to focus on what they want you to.

[Guest]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

You wont see the Mccanns in Portugal IF a body is found. No chance.

  No, I meant to another country far far away. With no extradition treaty. Barbados, for example.


Just joking.

[jeanmonroe]

Did they find pollen or seeds from a certain type of plant in the Scenic?  This would account for the aerial search for a certain tree or plant. Is this plant producing pollen at a certain time of year. ie June?

Maybe from the cannabis plant they 'found' on the 'snail'!    

[truthfultiger]

yes to the airport and onto a flight to Brazil, Ecuador or the like

My mum and I have speculated on this before but wouldn't Brazil have an extradition treaty with Portugal? Maybe they could go to Russia...I

[Guest]

How does Tony Stewart know the search effort was wasted?

 asked him, no reply yet. Josh Halliday recommended we read the tweets from TS's balcony in PdL after he left the town yesterday, so JH seems to trust him... I don't understand why the PJ didn't tell SY how new the drain was and if they did why SY would go ahead.

Josh Halliday tweeted he was 'back, sadly, from Praia da Luz'. Sadly? He must think something important was happening, then. He will, of course, be party to the thoughts and knowledge of those he's spoken to there, residents and journos et al.

Clearly feels he's been pulled up like a runner with a twisted ankle half way through a race.

I think Josh halliday means he is now back in the uk - He said he was leaving yesterday

Yeah, sad to be back in UK. Sad to have left Praia presumably because something was happening to make it worthwhile staying.

[Guest]

Has anyone noticed the video or TV camera in plain sight on the balcony behind them

Did you ?
Honestly ?

see how easy it is to focus on what they want you to.

Er... you'll have to take my word for it that I was just about to mention that. What I also noticed was the size of that black guy. Must be my football brain taking over - your heart would sink if you found out you were marking him.

[TheTruthWillOut]

I wonder how many UK hacks have returned to the UK and how many remain? The papers can't pay them indefinitely to stay out there.

[bobbin]

I'd like to think they are acting on specific intelligence but going by their wide coverage areas, to include a couple more locations (maybe Lagos Rocha Negra area), it does not appear they were working on tip off; else you'd think the location would be narrowed down to one only.

The terrain at the snail scrubland must be more expansive than can be captured on camera, and sectors of finger tip search would be guided by geo radar or dogs showing interest in the sector or whatever, but they cant possibly be covering every sector square metre by square metre as it is too time consuming.  It they are moving on to the next location it is a good indication they haven't located the "goods" so to speak.

Moving on to different locations would make sense if the police have information that Madeleine was initially hidden on the snail maybe in or close to the children's den then moved to a second and maybe third location. The discovery of the previously unknown den, with or without further forensic evidence, would add weight to the intelligence.

Sorry, don't agree.
If they have had intelligence where her final resting place is, then that would be the ONLY location they need to head for.  All the rest of the starting or intermediary hiding location/s is/are not important.  Once you have the body or remains, this is IT.  What more do you need?

It might be important if there is a 'sequence of findings' to show proof of who did what to whom.
If a body is just found, McCs could say it was a nasty man that took her and dumped her.
But, if soiled clothing is found, with a pink blanket, or other identifying things, then that would implicate K and G.

I'm only guessing, but am trying to remain 'positive' without info, which itself could be positive.

The police said they wanted peace and quiet to get on with their work without speculation.
The silence is very hard for us, since there is a history of corruption and bending figures, and it could as much be a cover up as a genuine AR search to establish just what did happen to Maddie.

The silence from the McCs and their pink spinning top is also worthy of note, given their perpetual 'yabbering' (I've just made this word up) over the years.
Perhaps the silence for the McCs is also terrifying and the idea that the search is moving to other areas may be making them sweat although I understand UK not to be suffering from too much sun today.

(My bold) Thank you Bobbin. It is knife-edge stuff and easy to fall into the slough of despond. But I will try my bestest to retain a little hope and faith in AR and draw a bit of comfort from what you have said. Humanity can surprise at times.
  

Thank you Mirage, and I have further thoughts.
I do believe that this is a very 'delicate' investigation.
Justice is sought for Madeleine on the one hand, but protection is sought on the other.....
Protection for the bigger, higher up, either skulduggery or big project planning, which was going on simultaneously with the McC week's holiday.

Sometimes you see in the films a small time 'local' police operation being suddenly 'closed down' because a longer trap has been set up for maybe drug traffickers which would be exposed if the local police started sniffing around or turning up in their sirens and blue flashing cars.

I am certain that the immediate diplomatic, damage limitation, political etc. 'assistance' was a huge knee jerk reaction from a 'hyper-sensitive' establishment in fear of 'discovery'. Of what I do not know, but there are signs that come up.

I think that the McCs were like bumbling, petty criminals who just co**ed up their own issues, and drew the press/limelight onto PdL and the difficulty for the establishment has been in drawing a line of protection around their own, to separate the two issues.

With regards the bigger operation, we have daily reminders that corruption is both rife and global, it always has been.
People are steamrollered into silence, rights are just simply eliminated, dissenters are removed, yet, Maddie requires justice, and millions of people (also globally) now are not going to settle with no resolution for her.

I do think it possible that the Maddie McCann issue will see resolution. The diplomatic manoeuverings will no doubt be sealed off in a D notice or similar, to be exposed at a later date perhaps, if that precedes their being time elapsed and printed, long after we have all gone.

I don't think people will let Maddie's disappearance go un-settled and I think the UK government knows this.

[Newintown]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

You wont see the Mccanns in Portugal IF a body is found. No chance.

  No, I meant to another country far far away. With no extradition treaty. Barbados, for example.


Just joking.

As in Sir Cliff who has now become a citizen, God knows why but he obviously does!

[aiyoyo]

No one can accuse them of not being thorough.

Smithman could have been heading for the snail.
There seems to be a report of Smithman on a phone and this does not tie in with the Smith's statements. Was there another witness? I wonder where this was? Was he still holding Madeleine?
I wonder if soil samples were found in the Scenic boot and these tie in with the soil at the snail. Are they then from a temporary resting place or a final resting place?
I think they are looking for somewhere that was temporary or current hiding place for a body. 

Does anyone have a link to an aerial picture of the snail area in 2007? Are there areas that are now built on?

The 'eight' persons of interest of 'three' drugs traffickers police are keen on interviewing or re-interviewing (as the case may be if reports to be believed) might just be Police different fishing expedition to ask what they saw.
Burglars, drug traffickers and generally people on dodgy business are more likely to loiter around places or using unusual venues to monitor houses and or to trade drugs.  These are the type of people that are likely to see things that normal average joe won't see.
Gerry going about with a laden blue bag into scrubland, acting suspiciously, furtively searching around for hiding/burial spot, and digging/burying is more likely to be spotted by drifters of the kind mentioned above than other people.

[splinker]

Isn't it strange how the mock up picture of how she would look today looks more like a real girl than the real Madeleine in the iconic photo?

I've just noticed that on the photo she doesn't have that little pink lump.

I googled it: the inner canthus is missing

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There was some discussion in 2012 of fetal alcohol syndrome being a factor in the case: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5703-theory-on-motive

[bobbin]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

You wont see the Mccanns in Portugal IF a body is found. No chance.

  No, I meant to another country far far away. With no extradition treaty. Barbados, for example.


Just joking.

VIRGIN islands, anyone? First class airline seats included, with orange juice for the twins, a crate of beer for the geezer and New Zealand White for the lady.

ETA I forgot the 'reward money' to set up a 'fiction writing business'.

[MaybeMaybenot]

Isn't it strange how the mock up picture of how she would look today looks more like a real girl than the real Madeleine in the iconic photo?

I've just noticed that on the photo she doesn't have that little pink lump.

I googled it: the inner canthus is missing

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

There was some discussion in 2012 of fetal alcohol syndrome being a factor in the case: https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t5703-theory-on-motive

Why the dig site is referred to as "the snail" is beyond me. If you place the eye of the bottom picture here and place it on the site....You get the meaning.
I tend to think its all a crazy game. Its not dig up the lies. Its dig up the eyes. We are all being toyed with....IMHO

[jeanmonroe]

Given that the South Yorkshire Police were  extremely 'open and honest' about information regarding the Ben Neddham 'search' in Kos.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ben Needham Investigation

Reference Number: 20120719

Request Date:

Tuesday, 6 November, 2012

Response Date:

Thursday, 6 December, 2012

Request Details:

Please can you provide the following information, regarding the recent police operation on the Greek Island of Kos, relating to Ben Needham?

1) How many officers from UK police forces went to Kos – and how many of those were from South Yorkshire Police. Can you please provide a breakdown of the role of every officer who went to Greece. (ie Dog Handlers, Family liaison officers etc).
2) How much did the operation cost? What was the direct cost to South Yorkshire Police? Will that cost be met from South Yorkshire police’s budget, or from a separate government fund?
3) Are South Yorkshire Police liable to pay any other UK police forces for their respective officer’s time / expenses? If so, please provide a breakdown of what sums are owed to which forces.
4) Did South Yorkshire police / UK police forces / UK government funds cover any of the expenses incurred by the Greek authorities – for example, cost of excavators, any expenses for Greek search and rescue volunteers, any expenses for Greek police officers?
5) Did South Yorkshire police officers incur any expenses relating to transporting the Needham family?

Exemptions Applied:

None

SYP Response:

In accordance with 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, I can advise you that South Yorkshire Police holds information in relation to your request and we are able to disclose this to you in full.

In order to answer your request I contacted South Yorkshire Police’s Specialist Crime Services Department (SCS) to research the above questions. Please see the below responses:

Q1:
The total number of staff was 20, of which 10 were South Yorkshire Police Staff. This included dog handlers, investigating & family liaison officers, staff from other forces, and a pathologist.

Q2:
Our SCS have advised the cost of the operation so far is £52,331.92. This figure is almost final. However, as the figure is not yet final, we invite you to submit of Freedom of Information at a later date should you wish to obtain this figure. The costs of the operation are been met by the Home Office.

Q3 & Q4:
As per question 2, any expenses incurred by other forces and/or the Greek authorities would be met by the Home Office.

Q5:
South Yorkshire Police did not incur any expenses in relation to the transportation of the Needham Family.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Exemptions Applied: NONE.

Our SCS have advised the cost of the operation so far is £52,331.92. This figure is almost final.
----------------------------------------------

Would this be an oppotune time to send a FOI request to the Met/SY about the 'costs, manpower, expenses etc' expended on the PDL 'search'?

Using the same 'questions' as the South Yorkshire Police were 'asked'?

[bobbin]

Given that the South Yorkshire Police were  extremely 'open and honest' about information regarding the Ben Neddham 'search' in Kos.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Ben Needham Investigation

Reference Number: 20120719

Request Date:

Tuesday, 6 November, 2012

Response Date:

Thursday, 6 December, 2012

Request Details:

Please can you provide the following information, regarding the recent police operation on the Greek Island of Kos, relating to Ben Needham?

1) How many officers from UK police forces went to Kos – and how many of those were from South Yorkshire Police. Can you please provide a breakdown of the role of every officer who went to Greece. (ie Dog Handlers, Family liaison officers etc).
2) How much did the operation cost? What was the direct cost to South Yorkshire Police? Will that cost be met from South Yorkshire police’s budget, or from a separate government fund?
3) Are South Yorkshire Police liable to pay any other UK police forces for their respective officer’s time / expenses? If so, please provide a breakdown of what sums are owed to which forces.
4) Did South Yorkshire police / UK police forces / UK government funds cover any of the expenses incurred by the Greek authorities – for example, cost of excavators, any expenses for Greek search and rescue volunteers, any expenses for Greek police officers?
5) Did South Yorkshire police officers incur any expenses relating to transporting the Needham family?

Exemptions Applied:

None

SYP Response:

In accordance with 1(1)(a) of the Freedom of Information Act 2000, I can advise you that South Yorkshire Police holds information in relation to your request and we are able to disclose this to you in full.

In order to answer your request I contacted South Yorkshire Police’s Specialist Crime Services Department (SCS) to research the above questions. Please see the below responses:

Q1:
The total number of staff was 20, of which 10 were South Yorkshire Police Staff. This included dog handlers, investigating & family liaison officers, staff from other forces, and a pathologist.

Q2:
Our SCS have advised the cost of the operation so far is £52,331.92. This figure is almost final. However, as the figure is not yet final, we invite you to submit of Freedom of Information at a later date should you wish to obtain this figure. The costs of the operation are been met by the Home Office.

Q3 & Q4:
As per question 2, any expenses incurred by other forces and/or the Greek authorities would be met by the Home Office.

Q5:
South Yorkshire Police did not incur any expenses in relation to the transportation of the Needham Family.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Exemptions Applied: NONE.

Our SCS have advised the cost of the operation so far is £52,331.92. This figure is almost final.
----------------------------------------------

Would this be an oppotune time to send a FOI request to the Met/SY about the 'costs, manpower, expenses etc' expended on the PDL 'search'?

Using the same 'questions' as the South Yorkshire Police were 'asked'?

Except that the Maddie case is more leaning towards a 'homicide/murder enquiry' rather than a 'lost child'.
I think the cases are so different including Kerry's pain to date. I feel for her.

[aiyoyo]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

You'd expect so.

As victims, they would be informed as soon as practicable once the body is found.
If they are perpetrators, then the order would be - arrest them first then inform them.
PeterMac will correct me if I am wrong.

[aiyoyo]

If remains/body were to be found would SY/PJ be obliged to inform the parents immediately?

Good question. If so, could it be taxi to airport time?

You wont see the Mccanns in Portugal IF a body is found. No chance.

They would have to be dragged there in handcuffs and chains, kicking screaming and protesting all the way - that the dogs are notoriously unreliable, and that the Redwood and colleagues are just another lot of f....king tossers who framed them.

[ProfessorPPlum]

I go with the PeterMac line of thinking as in 'everyone knows MM died in 5A'. The only question is how. It's easy to forget that the police of both countries have access to MORE evidence and data than we do. If it's obvious to us, then you can safely assume that not only will it be obvious to them (as we know it was to GA and his team) and they will more than likely have a very strong hypothesis for what happened. I suspect the searches relate to that hypothesis (proving or disproving it) and not at all 'random' or, as some people interpret, desperate. We may not know the hypothesis behind this sequence of search events but I am confident there will BE one.